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Doubles and You, a Comprehensive Guide to 2v2s

HailCrest

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I think I'll try to contribute for Lucas.

Carry - 1/2

Lucas can't carry at all. All of his moves have too much ending lag (even though all non-smashes have quick startup) and they all lack range. His matchups are horrible and he just simply can't survive in 2v1.

Tank - 8 or 10 or 11

Lucas has a good and quick recovery such that he can recover from anywhere provided that he has his double jump. His teammate will seldom ever be in a 2v1 situation while he's offstage; the person would be trying to gimp PKT2 when he gets the chance lol. He also has quick aerials and PK Fire to deter any ledgeguarders and allow for a safe recovery back to the stage. Zapjumps, combined with wavebouncing and magnet pull, add that to his tether gives Lucas a diverse and quick recovery that is hard to predict and harder to gimp.

However, he is only a slight bit lighter than Mario and therefore doesn't have much surviving capability when facing people with good knockback moves. His aerials are slow in general (Nair lasts 45 frames and is his fastest) and therefore he doesn't have much momentum cancelling capability. His hurtbox is average-sized and isn't particularly small so isn't that hard to kill overall.

The reason I listed this as 8 or 10 is because he's 10 when with a good cleric like Lucario or ZSS or Pikachu, and 8 when without. I guess you can consider him to be a 9 when with a pseudo cleric; absorbable projectiles with minor health gain like Pit or Falco. As long as the Lucario/ZSS/Pikachu survives and stays, Lucas has an infinite health and it is very well possible for the Lucas to be at a stock advantage when the healing is done correctly. Magnet-Cancelling makes it very hard for the opponent to hit Lucas while he is healing. (On another note, this is what sets Lucas and Ness apart from G&W; G&W's bucket, on absorption, has a ton of lag and can easily be hit by a killer while he's absorbing while Ness and Lucas can simply cancel their magnets).

When paired with a Zamus, Lucas is an 11 in tank. Her downsmash heals 23% and lasts a total of 33 frames; it's spammable and heals 46% per second. Lucas can go down from 100% back to 0% in the time it takes for an edgeguarded opponent(s) to get back.

Punisher - 10

What can I say? Fsmash kills at around 110-120% undecayed with proper DI and comes out in 14 frames. The jablock works starting at 70% with most characters and is a guaranteed death should it land (and they fail to tech). Any opponent makes a mistake, they're dead. Did Jigglypuff whiff a Rest, or did ZSS miss a grab? Usmash kills at 90% undecayed with proper DI, and comes out on the 29th frame. Lucas' ally can hit lucas with a weak move like a jab/falco laser/pit arrow to negate all ending lag of Lucas' moves. Any opponent must be wary with laggy moves when facing a team with a Lucas.

DPS - 8/9

Lucas' DPS isn't that bad. His aerials are quick and all of them do at least 12% damage (excluding Bair, but that goes unused most of the time). His tilts are also quick and with the exception of dtilt (lol dtilt), also do at least 11% damage. Lucas has decent comboes when the opponent is at a low percentage and with proper support from another DPS teammate, his ability as a punisher kicks in.

Support - 8

Lucas has great offensive support. Usmash and Fsmash both give grab-releases that extra kick in terms of scaring and threatening the opponent. If the Lucas knows what he's doing, a D3 downthrow could well lead to a Usmash at killing percentages.

As for defensive support, he's pretty decent. He has a 2-frame jab that can get his ally out of a tight snitch pretty fast. His air speed and ground speed are both above average, and all of his aerials except Bair come out on the 4-5th frame. Tilts are also really fast.

However, his interference is pretty high. All his special moves sans PSI Magnet are all projectiles, therefore they can interfere with his ally and **** something up pretty bad. His Usmash has incredible range and lasts pretty long and killing your ally with it isn't something too rare if the opponent knocks Lucas' ally into it/the ally happens to be there.

His best teammates stem from his magnet. The Lucas boards have a consensus on Ness and ZSS and G&W (three of Lucas' specials are bucketable). I personally also find Lucario to be a good support because of DPS and his good Carry ability, and as long as Lucario has an aura sphere charged, Lucas can have a free 30% whenever he wishes. As mentioned above, ZSS's down smash heals 23% and lasts 33 frames. The hitbox also stays out (unlike other projectiles) and can still hit enemies, which means it just makes Lucas that much more tanky.

Dedede is also an excellent partner. Down-throw's set knockback makes Lucas' smashes that much more formidable. He also handles Lucas' bad matchups pretty well and has great damage racking capabilities.
 

Dekar173

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Updated second post again with a bit more commentary. Slowly but surely making my way through the list...

I'll comment on your rating for Lucas tomorrow Crest.
 

Mr. Escalator

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"G&W's bucket, on absorption, has a ton of lag and can easily be hit by a killer while he's absorbing while Ness and Lucas can simply cancel their magnets)."

Complete nitpicking, but the bucket is actually really safe on absorption. The bucket naturally has long ending lag, of course, and it doesn't change when it grabs something, but he does gain something of note when he buckets. He gains 24 frames of invincibility when he catches something; while he can still be hit after these frames as the bucket still has bad ending lag, characters with quick chaining projectiles can actually link multiple invincible absorptions, ending with only 12 frames of vulnerable ending lag on the last bucket full. This makes team filling of the bucket really actually safe, not to mention there are several projectiles that can fill more than one bucket stock in a single use (bottom of Pika's Thunder, Mother Boy's PKT&Tail, etc).

The more you know!
 

Darkshadow96

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Hmm... I agree with you and this was indeed a great read. I knew that Rob was more of an assist character . I'm using him well in teams then =).
 

HailCrest

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"G&W's bucket, on absorption, has a ton of lag and can easily be hit by a killer while he's absorbing while Ness and Lucas can simply cancel their magnets)."

Complete nitpicking, but the bucket is actually really safe on absorption. The bucket naturally has long ending lag, of course, and it doesn't change when it grabs something, but he does gain something of note when he buckets. He gains 24 frames of invincibility when he catches something; while he can still be hit after these frames as the bucket still has bad ending lag, characters with quick chaining projectiles can actually link multiple invincible absorptions, ending with only 12 frames of vulnerable ending lag on the last bucket full. This makes team filling of the bucket really actually safe, not to mention there are several projectiles that can fill more than one bucket stock in a single use (bottom of Pika's Thunder, Mother Boy's PKT&Tail, etc).

The more you know!
Ness/Lucas' PKT tails deal only 1% per hit, making them too weak for the bucket to be worthwhile to use... and 12 frames is still enough for a Marth's tipped smash, another bucket, and there's barely enough time to dodge even a Lucas fsmash...
 

Nicole

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@Peach discussion- I don't believe I'm underrating her, but we'll see when I MM the Peaches going to Pound. From my experience, she's not that great of a character, and focuses more upon racking up percent than killing, as she's not mobile enough to always usmash, and sometimes she's got a turnip in her hands negating the possibility of a usmash entirely.
Why wouldn't you want to focus on what your char is good at? You play Diddy - do you focus on kililng? Hell no, you rack insane amounts of damage and kill your opponent at 190% with an Ftilt. Same with Peach. When your char can dish out huge amounts of damage without taking nearly as much in return, why SHOULD you focus on killing? As far as killing in teams goes, Peach should always team with a character who can get the kills - that's clear from the first page of this thread.

Also, as to your Dair discussion about DI-ing out of it. I played Ally's Snake this weekend. I Dair-ed him twice in a row. He tried to Smash DI out of it, and escaped a couple hits. But he couldn't SDI the whole thing. I played Affinity's MK - Affinity is one of the top 2 MKs in the MW-W. MK is quite capable of SDI-ing out of Peach's Dair. But he didn't do that either, because he didn't know that he could, because he isn't familiar enough with the Peach matchup.

I agree with everything KB said wholeheartedly.
 

Mr. Escalator

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Ness/Lucas' PKT tails deal only 1% per hit, making them too weak for the bucket to be worthwhile to use... and 12 frames is still enough for a Marth's tipped smash, another bucket, and there's barely enough time to dodge even a Lucas fsmash...
Absorbing PKT while right next to Ness, for example, gets two stocks in the bucket. If he uses it again, it absorbs the head. So that's 2 PKT Heads, and 1 part Tail. Three PKT heads is the strongest bucket load, so two is still quite noteworthy. I've killed with buckets of only Ness' weak PKFire pillar at reasonable percents, I'm definitely not gonna complain about having one that has two PKT Heads in it. Grabbing multiple bucketloads is about expediency, you don't need to set the perfect bucket up for it to be an AMAZING kill move.

Also, what are you even trying to argue about the bucket? Are you suggesting it's not great? It's actually one of the best moves in Doubles. "Oh man 12 frames thats just enough to hit with a smash!!!", except the fact that you don't fill up the bucket while there is any immediate danger from doing so. Smashing both of your opponents offstage (not necessarily killing them) is an example of a good opening to fill up. In between stocks is also a good way. Filling the bucket as Marth is grounded and can get into spacing a smash so that it's tippered out of a run isn't a good example of smart bucketing.

Yet, even if you do take a hit during the minimal 12 frames, you now have a FULL BUCKET. Seriously, this is a good trade off if I ever saw one. Not to mention, during these 12 frames, your partner filling the bucket can cover you lol. A lot of good projectiles don't have too much lag. Also, you don't even need to be onstage to bucket. As you are coming back down from being hit up high, you can easily catch your partner's Thunder/PKT/Arrow. How do you punish that?

The bucket is amazing. Your response implies you think otherwise.
 

Dekar173

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I think I'll try to contribute for Lucas.

Carry - 1/2

Lucas can't carry at all. All of his moves have too much ending lag (even though all non-smashes have quick startup) and they all lack range. His matchups are horrible and he just simply can't survive in 2v1.

I agree, his poor match-ups highly effect this, to the point where he's sort of a hassle to team with, in certain situations.

Tank - 8 or 10 or 11

Lucas has a good and quick recovery such that he can recover from anywhere provided that he has his double jump. His teammate will seldom ever be in a 2v1 situation while he's offstage; the person would be trying to gimp PKT2 when he gets the chance lol. He also has quick aerials and PK Fire to deter any ledgeguarders and allow for a safe recovery back to the stage. Zapjumps, combined with wavebouncing and magnet pull, add that to his tether gives Lucas a diverse and quick recovery that is hard to predict and harder to gimp.

However, he is only a slight bit lighter than Mario and therefore doesn't have much surviving capability when facing people with good knockback moves. His aerials are slow in general (Nair lasts 45 frames and is his fastest) and therefore he doesn't have much momentum cancelling capability. His hurtbox is average-sized and isn't particularly small so isn't that hard to kill overall.

The reason I listed this as 8 or 10 is because he's 10 when with a good cleric like Lucario or ZSS or Pikachu, and 8 when without. I guess you can consider him to be a 9 when with a pseudo cleric; absorbable projectiles with minor health gain like Pit or Falco. As long as the Lucario/ZSS/Pikachu survives and stays, Lucas has an infinite health and it is very well possible for the Lucas to be at a stock advantage when the healing is done correctly. Magnet-Cancelling makes it very hard for the opponent to hit Lucas while he is healing. (On another note, this is what sets Lucas and Ness apart from G&W; G&W's bucket, on absorption, has a ton of lag and can easily be hit by a killer while he's absorbing while Ness and Lucas can simply cancel their magnets).

When paired with a Zamus, Lucas is an 11 in tank. Her downsmash heals 23% and lasts a total of 33 frames; it's spammable and heals 46% per second. Lucas can go down from 100% back to 0% in the time it takes for an edgeguarded opponent(s) to get back.

Lucas is definitely in the 10 spot for Stock Tanking, with certain teammates, but those are reserved for the "Gimmick Teams" category which I'll be discussing in detail after I've got this a bit more completed.

Punisher - 10

What can I say? Fsmash kills at around 110-120% undecayed with proper DI and comes out in 14 frames. The jablock works starting at 70% with most characters and is a guaranteed death should it land (and they fail to tech). Any opponent makes a mistake, they're dead. Did Jigglypuff whiff a Rest, or did ZSS miss a grab? Usmash kills at 90% undecayed with proper DI, and comes out on the 29th frame. Lucas' ally can hit lucas with a weak move like a jab/falco laser/pit arrow to negate all ending lag of Lucas' moves. Any opponent must be wary with laggy moves when facing a team with a Lucas.

Like DK, or Ike, he has the same issues- he's not readily available to DELIVER those kill moves. He's always caught up in either a chaingrab (which his teammate needs to save him from) or he's being knocked offstage after said chaingrab, and I'm positive he can't use his smash attacks from offstage ;)

He's a good punisher, but not the best (that's the 10 spot).


DPS - 8/9

Lucas' DPS isn't that bad. His aerials are quick and all of them do at least 12% damage (excluding Bair, but that goes unused most of the time). His tilts are also quick and with the exception of dtilt (lol dtilt), also do at least 11% damage. Lucas has decent comboes when the opponent is at a low percentage and with proper support from another DPS teammate, his ability as a punisher kicks in.

Lucas IS flexible as a DPS character, but he doesn't rack up damage quite as easily as others, I can live with a 7 in this respect, at the very most. His kill moves/setups are insanely powerful, so he should be focusing entirely upon those.

Support - 8

Lucas has great offensive support. Usmash and Fsmash both give grab-releases that extra kick in terms of scaring and threatening the opponent. If the Lucas knows what he's doing, a D3 downthrow could well lead to a Usmash at killing percentages.

As for defensive support, he's pretty decent. He has a 2-frame jab that can get his ally out of a tight snitch pretty fast. His air speed and ground speed are both above average, and all of his aerials except Bair come out on the 4-5th frame. Tilts are also really fast.

However, his interference is pretty high. All his special moves sans PSI Magnet are all projectiles, therefore they can interfere with his ally and **** something up pretty bad. His Usmash has incredible range and lasts pretty long and killing your ally with it isn't something too rare if the opponent knocks Lucas' ally into it/the ally happens to be there.

His best teammates stem from his magnet. The Lucas boards have a consensus on Ness and ZSS and G&W (three of Lucas' specials are bucketable). I personally also find Lucario to be a good support because of DPS and his good Carry ability, and as long as Lucario has an aura sphere charged, Lucas can have a free 30% whenever he wishes. As mentioned above, ZSS's down smash heals 23% and lasts 33 frames. The hitbox also stays out (unlike other projectiles) and can still hit enemies, which means it just makes Lucas that much more tanky.

Dedede is also an excellent partner. Down-throw's set knockback makes Lucas' smashes that much more formidable. He also handles Lucas' bad matchups pretty well and has great damage racking capabilities.

Lucas has Defensive Support qualities, but no Offensive Support I can think of aside from jab locks, a lot of what you said goes into the Punish category. "Support" is when YOU set your opponent up for a kill, or save them from a gimp, NOT when they set you up.

Also, he has a moderate rating for Interference, at the very least, not due to his projectiles (they're not a hassle in the least with teammates) but instead because he needs a lot of babysitting against Grab Releases as well as gimps.


Why wouldn't you want to focus on what your char is good at? You play Diddy - do you focus on kililng? Hell no, you rack insane amounts of damage and kill your opponent at 190% with an Ftilt. Same with Peach. When your char can dish out huge amounts of damage without taking nearly as much in return, why SHOULD you focus on killing? As far as killing in teams goes, Peach should always team with a character who can get the kills - that's clear from the first page of this thread.

Also, as to your Dair discussion about DI-ing out of it. I played Ally's Snake this weekend. I Dair-ed him twice in a row. He tried to Smash DI out of it, and escaped a couple hits. But he couldn't SDI the whole thing. I played Affinity's MK - Affinity is one of the top 2 MKs in the MW-W. MK is quite capable of SDI-ing out of Peach's Dair. But he didn't do that either, because he didn't know that he could, because he isn't familiar enough with the Peach matchup.

They either don't know the match-up, or weren't trying as hard as they may have due to stock/match leads. But this discussion isn't about "well what if they don't know the match-up? The ONLY character that can have that sort of leniency is Diddy Kong- he's slowly risen up in the tier list bit by bit due to others knowing nothing about banana control (and seemingly NOT wanting to learn anything).

I agree with everything KB said wholeheartedly.
:peach: Peach: DPS
Carry- 5
Stock Tank- 5 (I can live with a 6 due to playstyle)
Punisher- 7
DPS- 9
Good Offensive Support

I'm pretty sure these stats are fine, and reflect exactly what you originally said- she's all about DPS, and requires a set-up to get a kill.
 

deepseadiva

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Peach needs more stocktank points.

She doesn't have average survivability in doubles - she's also not below Kirby or Olimar. :/
 

Dekar173

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Peach needs more stocktank points.

She doesn't have average survivability in doubles - she's also not below Kirby or Olimar. :/
Kirby's more bad than Peach is good. Olimar on the other hand, is better at Stock Tanking than Peach, he runs away, then when you get in, he throws you back away.
 

deepseadiva

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You can't get into Peach at all though - all she has is GTFO moves. Combined with float, Peach survives a surprisingly long time in doubles. It's odd.

I don't even play doubles seriously, and I know that.
 

deepseadiva

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I beat Dave, Tim, and Flux with DTL once and got money. :D :D :D

*shrug*

Even though it's a valid point, I'm sure other Peach players will agree if me and KB aren't enough.
 

Veggi

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You can't get into Peach at all though - all she has is GTFO moves. Combined with float, Peach survives a surprisingly long time in doubles. It's odd.

I don't even play doubles seriously, and I know that.
Yeah, I agree with this. Peach is really good at keeping people away, she has defensive techniques out the ***, and she is only moderately light. I really think it should be an 8.

I explained it in the post I made with Peach as part of it.

Edit...

Peach

Stock Tank- 8

Keep away much with turnips and all of her aerials, giant pivot grab, then Toad spores, and going offstage? Plus she has a good recovery, very good momentum canceling and floating after a uair rockets her really high into the sky where she can't be edgeguarded. Even if she is in the position to be edgeguarded, she can manipulate her recovery very easily and has good anti edgeguard options like Toad and fair. Plus if she actually does get gimped, she can stall for a bloody year until her partner saves her. The only thing poor about her ability to hold stocks is that she is moderately light weight. She's not even that light.

Ideally, I think Peach's best position is racking up damage when the opponent is at a low percent and then staying at the edge throwing junk and using normal Peach defensive maneuvers when they go after you. Defensive maneuvers are basically what Peach does when they can't be chained anymore. Always keeping a turnip in hand for when someone approaches.
That.
 

Chaosgriffin

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Some info for DK. Donkey Kong has two bucket brakes. This first one is obviously the Up B, the second is a b-reversed heabutt.

B-reverse Headbutt​

B-reverse Headbutt Mini Jump
Even though the B-reverse headbutt will stop all your momentum, when you perform it you will rise a certain amount. The higher damage you have the faster you are traveling the higher you will rise. The rise is a nice thing in my opinion, it will move you closer to the corner of the blastzone, you are higher in the air so you can do more with your recovery, and it is basically like a second double jump.
Video Coming Soon

B-reverse Headbutt vs Up B Break
Up B starts at frame 4 while Headbutt starts on frame 20, so by using Up B you get a .267 sec advantage. Up B break will stop you sooner, but after wards you are helpless, and you just have to hope that your opponent misses you. With B-reverse you will travel slightly further but you will not be helpless.

Testing
I tested how far you travel with Up B break, and how far with B-reverse headbutt. Here are my results.
I tested on New Pork City in training mode. I stood on the bottom platform on the right side of the stage. I got up to 100%, turned the speed down to 1/2 (so I could buffer everything) summoned a bob-omb and blew myself up with down smash. When I blew up I did not IDI the explosion, this way I was sent at the same angle every time. After I blew up I did bair, no fastfall, then B-reverse headbutt. After I landed I marked how far I traveled with a CPU. I did everything again the exact same, except this time I used Up B. After I landed I tested to see how far apart the travel distances were. They were approximately one dodge roll apart.
So i think his tank value should be changed from 8/10 to 9/10 or 10 with this in mind.
 

Adapt

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You should add to the gimmick part about ZSS that she also pairs well with those who have difficult to land, high power moves. (those that don't have startup lag like falcon punch anyway)

Jiggs' Rest
Luigi's Up-B
Ike's F-smash
DK's Punch/F-smash/U-smash
Zelda's fair/bair
Snake's F-smash/C4

are some good example. It's sometimes overlooked, but can net some really low % kills. It's the reason that ZSS has no decent kill moves.
 

llamapaste

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Nice thread Dekar. This thread should be stickied. Although it probably won't. D:
 

smashkng

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IMO DPS of Ganon is underrated. The dair does a rough 22% damage, dtilt does 12, fsmash does 25% damage uncharged, usmash does 19% damage uncharged, DA does 15% sweetspotted, ftilt does 13, uair does 13% bair does 16%, fair does 17% or 15% (depends on sweetspot) and at low percents his moves (like dair) combos very well. Fthrow does 13% damage. His moves deal too much damage to be just a 4.
 

iRJi

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I would like to also add that Lucario can be played very well just being a normal carry. If I had the time, I would go into more detail about it, but I will get back to it in a bit. I like the thread though.
 

Zatchiel

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I wanna see more on Falcon ditto teams, me and my friend are practicing, we need work...
I WANNA SEE MORE FALCON!
 

Suic

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I have an interesting suggestion. Feel free to completely ignore it, but I at least wanted to put it out there for consideration. Since this guide is to highlight the best role for a given player in doubles rather than creating a doubles ladder; why don't you have a fixed average score for each character. In other words, every character's number ratings average to a 7 (just an example number). This could eliminate the temptation of viewers of the thread from just adding up each persons numbers to make their own tier list (this has already happened once in this thread [although probably not intentionally] when someone pointed out that Diddy wasn't as good of a doubles character as G&W, but his total was just as high). If you adopted said system, you could point it out in the OP and say that as a result this should not be looked at a character vs. character ranking system.

Anyway, regardless of what you do I applaud your efforts for sure and would love to see this guide become a great way for people new to the doubles scene to quickly get a very informative view of what roles each character is able to play best without having to scour the character specific boards for information.
 

Remzi

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This is an awesome guide, I'm not too experienced in doubles and I learned a ton.

Me and my TL partner are gonna have to work on some actual roles rather than just having our matches degenerate into two separate 1v1s.

I'm pretty sure Marth stock tanks better than a 6...
Marth is light and has below average recovery. 6 is generous....
 

Luigi player

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Not entirely true. If a player wants a quick grab release, they can pummel to lower the release time. It's unlikely in any other case if their partner is good at babysitting though.
Pummeling doesn't lower the release time lol. Unless the player is mashing buttons.
If you're holding Wario like that it's just a free hit on you for Warios partner...
 

PhantomX

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Luigi player is entirely correct. If have sit in a person's grasp for about 20 seconds near 200% when I finally got grabbed and my partner managed to come over and kill us both :p

You have Wario rated incredibly low considering he's one of the best doubles characters.
 

Espy Rose

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:sonic: Sonic: Tank Support
Carry- 6
Stock Tank- 8
Punisher- 6
DPS- 6
Great Offensive Support
Great Defensive Support
I honestly agree with pretty much everything here, though I have two issues I'd just like to go into more detail about.

Stock Tank - 8

I was just more or less curious about how you managed to get an 8 on Stock Tanking when considering Sonic's weight. He's slightly lighter than the exact middle of the cast in terms of weight, and yes, although he does have an incredibly good momentum cancel, it takes time to execute.

When you combine the time it takes to momentum cancel, with his lighter than average weight, it makes for a difficult time trying to survive with Sonic. Not to mention those bread and butter moves from other cast members at KO percents will most likely KO Sonic unless he's hit from the far end of a stage (horizontally speaking. It's insanely difficult to survive a vertical KO with Sonic's momentum cancel).

However, at the same time, I will say that Sonic's ability to run from most enemy fire will keep him alive for quite some time. So long as Sonic avoids the fray, and only punishes when he knows the risk for taking damage is low, he can expect to live for quite some time (personally, I've lived past 200% in certain matches).

And speaking of punishment:

Punisher - 6

I'm not going to completely disagree with this, but only due to your definition of a Punisher (the portion whereas you state that this type of character can net low percentage KOs).

I just wanted to put a bit more emphasis on the last part:
Pay more attention to your opponents than to your teammate. Openings galore will be presented to you.
Sonic is incredible at punishing characters, due to his ground speed. He can punish G&W's smashes and Meta Knight's attacks from halfway across of Final Destination or longer, and can easily weave back out once the damage has been tacked on. His only major problem with fitting the description is his KO power.

He actually has a decent KO power, but his issue is in the speed of the attacks themselves. Had he just a bit less start up and ending lag to his smashes, I'd argue to put him up another point or so on the punishment category.

On a completely different tangent, Sonic's dthrow is a delicious setup, even if the opponent techs it. In fact, it's better that some characters (G&W) opt to not tech at all, since Sonic STILL gets frame advantage on them! Sonic's dthrow easily leads opponents into KO setups, depending on Sonic's partner.

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Oh, although you can't really use this to support much of anything, I'd like to quickly address Sonic's Carry ability with this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh1s3sdvD_4#t=02m21s

Yes, Sonic gets KO'd. But did you notice the damage output between Sonic's 0% on respawn and at the end when he gets KO'd?

The point is that Sonic's 2v1 abilities are great because of his naturally swift playstyle.

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Sonic is a pretty decent partner if in the right hands. However, having said that, the traits that keep him from being any better than he currently is, are his inability to KO at earlier percents and light weight.

Without a doubt though, Sonic in doubles, at his core, is an overall Offensive and Defensive Support Character, and a **** good one he is. Not great, but **** good.

He does best with tanks and hard hitters (though for the most part, those two are synonymous).

I bet he's pretty **** fierce with G&W too.
 

Gnes

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Luigi player is entirely correct. If have sit in a person's grasp for about 20 seconds near 200% when I finally got grabbed and my partner managed to come over and kill us both :p

You have Wario rated incredibly low considering he's one of the best doubles characters.
He also has diddy rated SUPER high...opinions are opinions
 
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