Does Sakurai dislike/not care about the Donkey Kong franchise?

Ryu Myuutsu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
2,158
Location
Niigata, Japan
3DS FC
3668-9945-1996
NNID
BahamurShin
Might have to chalk that one up to Sakurai. I would've taken Shadow over Ken any day and Sonic is more important both to Nintendo and Smash itself.
And who exactly decides that? From where I'm looking, the only legit reason you have to say that is your inherent bias towards the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise and that you prefer Shadow over Ken.

People always chalk this up to Sakurai, but there are a few scenarios that could explain why it turned out like this that I'm surprised it flies over people's heads. One that could make sense to me is that Capcom and Konami pushed harder than Sega for their franchises in Smash representation. Sega may not have been in a rush to have Shadow as a playable character after all.
Also, Nintendo may have deemed it more beneficial to invest on properties like Street Fighter and Castlevania, as they tend to attract more outside consumers than Sonic. Nowadays, there is considerable overlap between Sonic fans and Nintendo fans due to the history they share.

I still find it silly that people say Sonic isn't well represented just because they didn't get their beloved Shadow. They are clearly projecting their self worth a bit too much on the third party content.
 
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
638
It's entirely possible that Richter and Ken cost less to license and that Capcon or Konami were more cooperative. Capcom is like the king of crossovers so it being cooperative wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
The thing is, SEGA is usually really cooperative as well, especially nowadays as they’ve given up on Sonic having a good image and will loan him out to try to bring in popularity. Plus, they really seem cool with Nintendo, more so than Capcom and Konami, being that they have made many Mario and Sonic crossovers and developed numerous Nintendo exclusives since the GC. Take into account the fact that SEGA allowed LEGO to make a mockery of Sonic, and I find it hard to believe that Sega wouldn’t get involved with Smash.

I think we have the two 3rd party echoes for reasons other than money. I think Ken was just put in as a call back as he was technically the first echo fighter, and could easily introduce the concept. Richter was the main protagonist of the biggest game in the Castlevania series, Symphony of the Night, which started the Metroidvania genre. Richter is important to Castlevania and it’s image, but Simon was the first, so Sakurai probably felt that both needed to be included. (Simon is the more recognizable character, but Richter has the more recognizable game).

I also believe that Sakurai knows very little about Sonic, which is why Sonic’s moveset is comprised of all ball attacks and has rarely been changed since Brawl. The stages are also always the green hill style levels, so he probably just looked at the first level of Sonic’s games and built him completely off that.
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
433
Location
Australia
Please tell me you're joking. There's so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin. Tropical Freeze has sold almost close to 4 million copies alone and Returns has sold well over 8 million copies worldwide. They are both known as being two of some of the best platformers of all time by most and highly regarded for being some of the best well designed levels and gameplay in a modern platformer. Calling them "decent" is a gross understatement and even if you don't like the games, it is an undeniable reality that the levels are very well designed compared to a lot of other modern 2-d platformers. This isn't even taking into account the original trilogy on the super nintendo which all sold incredibly well on the system and were widely popular and known for the games usage of silicon graphics. My point being is that if you honestly believe that the donkey kong franchise isn't a major franchise for Nintendo, you've either been living under a rock or are just plain flat out misinformed. Of course the franchise isn't quite on the same level as say Mario or pokemon but I can definitely say with confidence that its on the same level as Zelda or at the very least very close to it. How ironic though you want to call people who are just calling it like it is "In denial" though. The only one "in denial" here is you.

Spot on, but I think at this point in time that the Zelda franchise is on that next tier above, compared to DKC. Anyone who believes that the DKC series is a fully fledged part of Mario has rocks in their head.

I would've loved more diversity and variety in stages with DK content, but beggars can't be choosers. We received K. Rool plus a ton of killer music, remixes and various spirits, so I don't believe that Sakurai dislikes the series.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
1,807
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
RetrogamerMax2
Might have to chalk that one up to Sakurai. I would've taken Shadow over Ken any day and Sonic is more important both to Nintendo and Smash itself.
Sega could be the reason we didn't get Tails or Shadow in the roster. It might have not been Sakurai's decision to exclude a 2nd Sonic rep.


Spot on, but I think at this point in time that the Zelda franchise is on that next tier above, compared to DKC. Anyone who believes that the DKC series is a fully fledged part of Mario has rocks in their head.

I would've loved more diversity and variety in stages with DK content, but beggars can't be choosers. We received K. Rool plus a ton of killer music, remixes and various spirits, so I don't believe that Sakurai dislikes the series.
I hate hearing people say that: "The DKC series is a spin off Mario series and that the DKC cast are Mario characters." Because they're not. DK is the farthest character away out of the whole Mario spin off cast to be consider a Mario character because while Yoshi and Wario both have their own series of games, their series somehow still ties or at least has a stronger connection to the Mario universe compared to the DKC universe.

Basically, DK has more of his own ground than Yoshi and Wario do and technically, the Mario series is a spin off of the original DK arcade series.
 

osby

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
12,482
Might have to chalk that one up to Sakurai. I would've taken Shadow over Ken any day and Sonic is more important both to Nintendo and Smash itself.
Or you know, because Richter and Ken make more sense as echos.

Also seeing all the Street Fighter and Castlevania content leaves me very curious about why do you think Sonic is more important to Smash.
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
1,807
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
RetrogamerMax2
Or you know, because Richter and Ken make more sense as echos.

Also seeing all the Street Fighter and Castlevania content leaves me very curious about why do you think Sonic is more important to Smash.
As you already know, the Sonic series was a huge rival to the Mario series back in the 90s. Sonic and his whole cast is more iconic and popular than both the Street Fighter and Castlevana's casts combined so that's why people think Sonic should have more characters than any other 3rd party.
 

osby

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 25, 2018
Messages
12,482
As you already know, the Sonic series was a huge rival to the Mario series back in the 90s. Sonic and his whole cast is more iconic and popular than both the Street Fighter and Castlevana's casts combined so that's why people think Sonic should have more characters than any other 3rd party.
I think Sonic definitely can use another playable character but pointing fingers at other franchises for this seems kinda petty to me.
 
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
6,292
Location
Miami, NYC
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
NNID
NapoleonPlays
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
And who exactly decides that? From where I'm looking, the only legit reason you have to say that is your inherent bias towards the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise and that you prefer Shadow over Ken.

People always chalk this up to Sakurai, but there are a few scenarios that could explain why it turned out like this that I'm surprised it flies over people's heads. One that could make sense to me is that Capcom and Konami pushed harder than Sega for their franchises in Smash representation. Sega may not have been in a rush to have Shadow as a playable character after all.
Also, Nintendo may have deemed it more beneficial to invest on properties like Street Fighter and Castlevania, as they tend to attract more outside consumers than Sonic. Nowadays, there is considerable overlap between Sonic fans and Nintendo fans due to the history they share.

I still find it silly that people say Sonic isn't well represented just because they didn't get their beloved Shadow. They are clearly projecting their self worth a bit too much on the third party content.
I choose to believe that Sakurai wanted Tails, and that his necessity to be more unique than an echo fighter made him less of an option (or possible DLC option).
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
1,807
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
RetrogamerMax2
I choose to believe that Sakurai wanted Tails, and that his necessity to be more unique than an echo fighter made him less of an option (or possible DLC option).
Yeah, the fact both Tails and Knuckles got Mii
costumes in Smash 4 while Knuckles got the Assist Trophy treatment and Tails didn't get a physical form in Ultimate at all could point towards your theory. Even though Tails got a spirit, he has a lesser role in the game than Knuckles does.
 

Arthur97

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
1,714
Or you know, because Richter and Ken make more sense as echos.

Also seeing all the Street Fighter and Castlevania content leaves me very curious about why do you think Sonic is more important to Smash.
Because Sonic is the only perfect attendance third party. Having a lot of content in this one game does not outdo the fact Sonic has been here since Brawl, and unlike Snake, he never left. Castlevania has no history with Smash. As a newcomer franchise, it inveritably is less important.

And logic doesn't have to fit for echoes, and just because you can make echoes, doesn't mean you should.
Sega could be the reason we didn't get Tails or Shadow in the roster. It might have not been Sakurai's decision to exclude a 2nd Sonic rep.
The music selection is rather lacking as well which is especially odd as that's the one part most people would say is usually good even in bad Sonic games.
 
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
6,292
Location
Miami, NYC
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
NNID
NapoleonPlays
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
I think we have the two 3rd party echoes for reasons other than money. I think Ken was just put in as a call back as he was technically the first echo fighter, and could easily introduce the concept.
Hmm... well, Ken was not used to introduce Echo fighters. In fact, he
1- was the last echo fighter we received (and possibly may ever receive).
2- convoluted the idea of "what makes an echo fighter" the most. His moveset still feels like a 'semi,' even the direct introducing him went out of its way to list over five large differences.


Anyway, to go back to the titular question of the thread:

I would like to see additions to Smash Bros to give me the same satisfaction I saw in the February direct, in the scene where Ridey, Samus, Zamus, Damus, and the Metroid all were in line (maybe it even had Kraid in the background, or Mother Brain).

-I'd like a Donkey Kong specific item. Honestly, the DK Crate. Animal Buddies. I can't believe we don't have them, honestly. It would be such a unique item in that you would have continual ridable buddies. It would help make Pokeballs seem *less* at odds with assist trophies, because we would have a third summon item, albeit one that functions almost completely differently. There are so many playful characters we could ride, and it could even get stage specific to really open up the platforming aspect of the fights, paying tribute to ridable characters in platform gaming as a whole. I truly think this is the biggest missed opportunity.

-Dixie. Of course. We went out of our way for female characters in Smash 4 (intentionally or not- and thats fine, until assessing perhaps the most ambiguously missed female that Nintendo owns). Semi clone works fine for me, and with how different Ken is as an echo, I honestly could even see her as an echo with the ability to twirl and grab with hair. If she can do those two things, she is her character.

-Two assists. Cranky seems the most obvious, because he has so much character, and was a legend in the old days. I can also imagine him being quite fun for kids playing, as a grumpy old fellow.
Another- literally anyone. Candy. Chunky. Kiddie. Funky. Lanky. The Kong's are the first family of Nintendo- why do we only see two of them in playable matches?????

-Sure, music, stages. But I'm going back to another character, and this one would be a clear echo- Donkey Kong Jr. The dude who even made it into the original Mario Kart. Not only a tribute to classic gaming, but an icon in his own right. We have so many characters who started as echoes (Pichu, Young Link) as tiny versions of a 64 veteran. I'd love to see DKjr treated this way- and as the fifth playable DK character, I think Donkey Kong would be perfectly balanced.
 
Last edited:

Gearkeeper-8a

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
108
Most of the complains in this threat are because of budget, time and cost, sakurai doesn't have infinity resources to make ever single request, sometimes game modes, characters, or assets need to be dropped because the game has a deadline and need to be released or the content wasn't a priority examples are like how stage builder or home run being cut from the base game, another thing is "franchise representation" doesn't really exist, most of the time is "most important game in the series" or "character representation", This is why super mario Odyssey, and BOTW got a stage, and why most if not all the content of kid icarus is from uprising, content in smash is a compromise of various internal and external factors content need to be approved not only for third parties but for first parties as well, example: the wii fit devs asking for WFT face to be prettier, pokemon rule of not shinies, etc.

If a internal dev team doesn't want to cooperate or there isn't a dev team like pre wii era DK, then chances are that the content of these franchises would become second or third priority, selling X amount of copies isn't that relevant, is more important if your franchise or game is popular during the development cicle of a smash game, this is how mother, F-zero and xenoblade got in.
 

Shira907

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Messages
9

Spot on, but I think at this point in time that the Zelda franchise is on that next tier above, compared to DKC. Anyone who believes that the DKC series is a fully fledged part of Mario has rocks in their head.

I would've loved more diversity and variety in stages with DK content, but beggars can't be choosers. We received K. Rool plus a ton of killer music, remixes and various spirits, so I don't believe that Sakurai dislikes the series.
Thinking about it again, you're absolutely correct. I was wrong to say it was on the same level as Zelda but it definetly isn't far off in being in the same tier as Zelda though. I do agree when comparing sales numbers overall, Zelda is above DK series for sure. Hopefully the Donkey kong franchise continues to do good though and it gets to that same tier :p. I do apologize however for being a little off topic on this thread. That post just annoyed me a little.
 
Last edited:

Mogisthelioma

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
2,970
Location
The Lor Starcutter
Neither does Donkey Kong.

The DK series subsisted on a small handful of failed spinoffs for years and only recently got two--count 'em, two--decent platforming games. I don't know where this illusion that it's a major franchise came from, but it seems be causing some confusion as to why there's not more DK in Smash, and I'm explaining the plain facts as to why this isn't the case. Whether the confused wish to take those facts or remain in denial is up to them. If you're happier thinking your trophy boy DK runs a much bigger operation than he actually does, then by all means.
1555275718277.png

Spot on, but I think at this point in time that the Zelda franchise is on that next tier above, compared to DKC. Anyone who believes that the DKC series is a fully fledged part of Mario has rocks in their head.
DK has separated itself from the Mario series simply on the basis of it's level design. Every DK level is unique in its own way, whereas the NSMB series has a lot of copy-pasted elements.
 

Attachments

Joined
Aug 29, 2018
Messages
652
I'm a big DK fan. I also have a mental illness.

Doooooooon't insinuate other people have a mental illness when they say something incorrect or something you disagree with. It's absolutely not cool no matter the context.

As for my opinions on the matter of this thread, Opossum's reply on the first page sums up my sentiments. It could be better, but I don't really think Sakurai dislikes the series.
 
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Messages
35
I want to start with this; I do feel like you are heavily underestimating the relevance of Fire Emblem. Fire Emblem is actually way bigger than people realize, we have the main series in the last 5 years has received 5 brand new games with the 6th one coming out in July. First is Fire Emblem Awakening that sold immensely well, Fire Emblem Fates did even better AND had 3 separate games under it's belt, Fire Emblem Echoes that is a remake of Fire Emblem 2, and we have Fire Emblem Three Houses coming this July. On top of that, Fire Emblem Heroes is a massive deal right now. Even to this day, Fire Emblem Heroes has a massive following and Nintendo is still supporting it with new content. Oh and we also got Fire Emblem Warriors which also sold really well despite the problems it had.
Now compare this to Donkey Kong; Only 1 new game in the last 3 years and since then it's only had a port of that same game.. Yeah sorry that's a far cry from what Fire Emblem is doing so it makes sense Nintendo would push Fire Emblem harder.

Now onto the topic itself; I actually do agree with you, Donkey Kong does deserve more love. I know this may seem contradictory to what I said before but I actually feel this is not a Smash Bros Exclusive problem. Donkey Kong in general has received very little attention when compared to Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon and I really don't understand why. Donkey Kong is a massive deal, it was the name that got Mario his fame so to see it get so little attention is mind-boggling to me. I'd even go so far to say that the treatment of Donkey Kong is worse than the treatment of F-Zero. Don't misunderstand, I ain't making light of F-Zero's treatment but with that series Nintendo has the excuse of "Well, it's not got enough of a following to justify us spending money to make a new game" but with Donkey Kong they ain't got that excuse so I'd say it's even worse.
I like to hope that Retro Studios has been working on a new Donkey Kong Game but given how they are now apparently working on Metroid Prime 4, I actually question exactly what they have been doing prior to that.
As for your general question; Does Sakurai hate/dislike Donkey Kong? Personally I say no but it COULD be because Donkey Kong has been worked on by western developers. Even Diddy Kong and King K Rool were made by RARE which of course is a British company so it is possible the Japanese based SORA and Bandai Namco have difficulty working with IP's that did not originate from their homeland, if this is the case then I say they should drop that mentality as they did a fine job with Diddy Kong and King K Rool.
Anyway, I think that just about does my reply, hope this helps.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,137
Donkey Kong in general has received very little attention when compared to Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon and I really don't understand why. Donkey Kong is a massive deal, it was the name that got Mario his fame so to see it get so little attention is mind-boggling to me. I'd even go so far to say that the treatment of Donkey Kong is worse than the treatment of F-Zero.
Again again, what the hell kind of "attention" do you and other DK fans even want from Nintendo? Loading it with more main series games? Giving it more spinoffs? Bringing all of the Kongs and DK characters that have ever existed into one game?

Because I don't want any of those to be done to DK, and again, I feel that Nintendo does very well keeping it as a very quality-over-quantity series.

Mark my words, you and others would NOT be big DK fans if Nintendo decided to up its quantity with less regard to quality.
 
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
1,177
The more I read of this thread, the more frustrated I get. I have never been under the impression that sales should determine how much or how little content a game gets in comparison to others beyond the obvious Pokemon and Mario having to dominate everything under the sun because they have provided the most solid foundation for Nintendo over their gaming history.

Smash just isn't going to have "balanced" representation because there will always be people who perceive the number of characters and overall content a franchise has as too high or too low. A "balanced representation" doesn't exist because people will naturally always disagree to some degree and it has largely been an excuse for people to vent their frustrations of their personal favorite series not getting more characters or that Sakurai had the audacity to do something that he wanted to do instead of kowtowing completely to fans and exclusively putting in the top ten requested characters. The resistance to Piranha Plant just because he's not what some certain subset of fans consider "appropriate" for Smash or that "he could have been a fan pick" is annoying and just gives Sakurai no credit to work as an independent creative force.

Doesn't matter which director works on the game, there will always be areas where characters get less focus or are perceived to have less content than they deserve. That's just the nature of running a crossover with 80 characters originating from over 20 franchises. It just happens as a part of opportunity cost and personal bias. And that bias isn't a bad thing because that bias can bring more unique picks and ideas to the roster. Especially when the director has worked so hard to see different fan desires met over time.


And let's really consider the DK situation. We currently have three full characters, four stages, and an assist trophy. They de-emphasized new stages completely and focused on returning stages this time around. DK had previously been home to two of the more gimmicky stages. Rumble Falls is probably the most hated stage in Smash history for it's vertical scrolling and spikes, so it didn't return. Jungle Hijinx was creative, but the gimmick didn't always work super well and likely had problems working with stage morph, 8 player, or both. Those stages had some of the more distinct reasons to be cut or low priority coming into Ultimate. Ultimate then took the task of beautifully remastering two of DK's classic Melee stages. They added Klaptrap as an assist trophy. Included a ton of spirits. And then of course, made King K. Rool a playable character with some of the most beautiful love and care given to a character in Smash given how many games they pulled from.

I'd call that an overall victory for the DK series and worthy of celebration. Especially considering how grim the Wii U era was for the series. That's an extremely solid improvement. We can naturally go further and we should support Dixie Kong as she's the next logical choice for the series. But given the circumstances of Ultimate's development and the extremely limited pool of newcomers and DK having the more problematic stages, I think we came out very, very well. I think Sakurai quite enjoys DK and the series from the amount of love he has put in to be quite honest.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,137
The more I read of this thread, the more frustrated I get. I have never been under the impression that sales should determine how much or how little content a game gets in comparison to others beyond the obvious Pokemon and Mario having to dominate everything under the sun because they have provided the most solid foundation for Nintendo over their gaming history.

Maybe people need to realize that having a bunch of characters in Smash isn't a statement of how popular a series is, but more that said series has a diverse cast that is fighter-worthy.

Take Metroid for example. Yes, it's popular, but that series embraces having a minimalistic cast. They really should not shoehorn Gandrayda, Rundas, or Anthony Higgs just because Metroid is popular and needs more; that would just reflect poorly on the series emphasizing peril in isolation. Sylux could get there eventually, but he's not ready as of now. That would be like putting in Bowser Jr. back in Brawl.
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
1,807
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
RetrogamerMax2
And that is now considered to be a dark period in DK history. Probably worse than the TP-SS era of Zelda. Could you imagine DK continuing that path with no DKCR series that rekindles the flame?
How exactly is the Wii era of Zelda bad? Both Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword were both amazing games so why would you or anybody else say that era was the lowest tier? All Zelda games are great excluding the CDI games, but if there is one era for Zelda that probably should be consider the lowest tier, it should be the GCN/GBA era because the Four Swords games and Minish Cap were the worst selling games in the whole series.

Wind Waker was a masterpiece, but that title alone shouldn't allow the GCN/GBA era to be ranked higher than the Wii era. And yes, I know Twilight Princess was on the Gamecube, but the Wii version outsold the GameCube version even though the GameCube version is better. So, the Wii era wins in that regard. And no, Collector's Edition and OOT Master Quest don't count because they are ports not remakes.
 
Last edited:

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,137
How exactly is the Wii era of Zelda bad? Both Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword were both amazing games so why would you or anybody else say that era was the lowset tier? All Zelda games are great excluding the CDI games, but if there is one era for Zelda that probably should be consider the lowset tier, it should be the GCN/GBA era because the Four Swords games and Minish Cap were the worst selling games in the whole series. Wind Waker was a masterpiece, but that title alone shouldn't allow the GCN/GBA era to be ranked higher than the Wii era.
The TP-SS era's puzzles were shallow, the characters are just signposts except for Midna and Groose, combat was gimmicky instead of deep, the stories were poorly written, and exploration was sacrificed for said stories.

But this is off topic. I'm just using it as an easy example of a series decline.
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
1,807
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
RetrogamerMax2
The TP-SS era's puzzles were shallow, the characters are just signposts except for Midna and Groose, combat was gimmicky instead of deep, the stories were poorly written, and exploration was sacrificed for said stories.

But this is off topic. I'm just using it as an easy example of a series decline.
Well, I don't think so. But I do agree with the combat system being gimmicky though.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I've seen some people mention that "DK isn't part of Mario" or that "it's far less grounded in Mario then Wario and Yoshi", which simply isn't true.

No matter how much you and I want to deny it, DK is a part of the Mario series. The End. Why do you think DK has been a part of Mario Kart since Super? Why do you think DK and Luigi's Mansion are the only Mario spin-off series to be represented in Mario Kart? DK and Diddy even got Amiibo as part of the Mario series when Yoshi and Wario didn't get any characters from their sub-series.

DK is more grounded in the Mario universe then Wario. Wario doesn't reference Mario, and gets no references in return, DK never represents Mario, but gets references and appearances all of the time. Ashley, Captain Syrup or Poochy never appeared in Mario Kart or Party, but DK, Diddy and even Funky Kong have. Mario Super Sluggers, a game with 41 character (12 Team Captains and 29 Team Players) has 6 DK characters (DK and Diddy are captains, Dixie, Funky, K. Rool and Tiny are players) while Yoshi and Wario both get one, the titular character. DK gets tons of special treatment in Mario spinoffs, to the point where he was even playable in Yoshi's Island DS.

Diddy has become a member of the Spin-Off cast now, the only other character originating from a Spin-Off to join the Kart/Party crew is King Boo from Luigi's Mansion, and he hasn't even been playable in Mario Party, being shafted in favour of a generic, normal, mainline Mario Boo.

Check out these images, you'll notice that DK and Diddy make appearances.

Ugly collage of artwork that doesn't match:

Also check the Mushroom Kingdom Calendar Creator on Play Nintendo, because you can put DK and Diddy on there.

As much as you or even I try to say DK is far more separate from Mario then other spin-offs, that simply isn't true. It's close to, or just behind, Luigi's Mansion in terms of representation, but you try to deny that and pretend that DK's a series that sometimes makes appearances in Mario games, when DK appears all of time.
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
1,807
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
RetrogamerMax2
I've seen some people mention that "DK isn't part of Mario" or that "it's far less grounded in Mario then Wario and Yoshi", which simply isn't true.

No matter how much you and I want to deny it, DK is a part of the Mario series. The End. Why do you think DK has been a part of Mario Kart since Super? Why do you think DK and Luigi's Mansion are the only Mario spin-off series to be represented in Mario Kart? DK and Diddy even got Amiibo as part of the Mario series when Yoshi and Wario didn't get any characters from their sub-series.

DK is more grounded in the Mario universe then Wario. Wario doesn't reference Mario, and gets no references in return, DK never represents Mario, but gets references and appearances all of the time. Ashley, Captain Syrup or Poochy never appeared in Mario Kart or Party, but DK, Diddy and even Funky Kong have. Mario Super Sluggers, a game with 41 character (12 Team Captains and 29 Team Players) has 6 DK characters (DK and Diddy are captains, Dixie, Funky, K. Rool and Tiny are players) while Yoshi and Wario both get one, the titular character. DK gets tons of special treatment in Mario spinoffs, to the point where he was even playable in Yoshi's Island DS.

Diddy has become a member of the Spin-Off cast now, the only other character originating from a Spin-Off to join the Kart/Party crew is King Boo from Luigi's Mansion, and he hasn't even been playable in Mario Party, being shafted in favour of a generic, normal, mainline Mario Boo.

Check out these images, you'll notice that DK and Diddy make appearances.

Ugly collage of artwork that doesn't match:

Also check the Mushroom Kingdom Calendar Creator on Play Nintendo, because you can put DK and Diddy on there.

As much as you or even I try to say DK is far more separate from Mario then other spin-offs, that simply isn't true. It's close to, or just behind, Luigi's Mansion in terms of representation, but you try to deny that and pretend that DK's a series that sometimes makes appearances in Mario games, when DK appears all of time.
You do make a point about Wario being less tied to Mario than DK. But I was just stating that DK has his own ground and that the DKC characters shouldn't be called Mario characters because of DK and Diddy appearing in the Mario spin offs. Also technically, Mario is a spin off of DK.
 
Last edited:

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
23,448
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
I've read through this thread, well admittedly just the first page, and I still agree a lot with what the OP says. But there's good counter-points as well.

I don't think Sakurai necessarily hates DKC, or not care about it. I think he's shown the franchise quite some love. But it's apperant that outside of Brawl, he was never really all that much into expanding existant franchises of Smash Bros. And we're just quite unlucky as DKC fans that Diddy was never considered for Melee, or even 64 (given how big DKC was at that time it was a good possibility). Because the massive outcry for Diddy pushed K.Rool and Dixie support waaaay to the background, where it was only untill the Smash 4 ballot that the Smash development team and Sakurai knew about the immensive popularity of King K.Rool.

Before that, all the DKC fans rallied behind Diddy's inclusion. And I think that was the part where DKC fans where the most united. We wanted Diddy in Smash, as we felt he deserved it. There was no division between the supporters as with Smash 4 with the K.Rool and Dixie fanbases. This was probably also because Diddy was more seen in recent games around that time. But it's not like K.Rool and Dixie where completely absent because we got tons of DK games made by PAON; DK King of Swing, DK Jungle Climber (EVERY DKC fan should play this little gem btw!) and DK Barrel Blast... shame Nintendo lost them, because am sure many more DKC spin-offs would've been made by them, and they where the most loyal to the franchise out of any developer (counting even Rare).

Also the whole mindset behind the newcomers in Smash 4 was working against King K.Rool quite a bit. It was all about who's recent and who's a big 3rd party character with good ties to Nintendo. Nevertheless, the Kremlings where added in Smash Run as enemies despite them having new appearances on a 3DS game or anything and the Jungle Hijinx stage was real hype and very detailed and true to DKCR. Knowing that DKCR was obviously the biggest thing happening for the DKC franchise ever since Brawl, it's also kind of logical that Sakurai didn't really consider a DKC newcomer a top priority. King K.Rool was also absent from that game, as was Dixie. However, Dixie could've / should've been a newcomer because of DKC Tropical Freeze...

It's a bit hit or miss with Sakurai and his love and attention for DKC. The animations for the Kongs and K.Rool are superb and couldn't even have been replicated by Rare themselves (speaking of modern Rare), and their movesets are full of detail towards DKC elements. There's good stages, but all of them are jungle levels.. which isn't all that bad because all of Metroid stages are lava based, and all of StarFox stages are space based. It's honestly not all that bad.

I would like to remember you all that Zelda also hasn't had a proper newcomer ever since Toon Link in Brawl. They sort of cheated with this, making Zelda and Sheik separate in Smash 4, and re-adding Young Link and revamping the 3 main Zelda characters just enough for Ultimate to make them feel fresh and justifying the existence of 3 Link characters, but yeah the cast is pretty much the same as Melee's or Smash 4's, only with a extra small Link...

Star Fox also had Wolf balantly removed from Smash 4, and safe for DLC, MOTHER also lost Lucas.

I think it's just Sakurai not really feeling it much of a priority to add to older Nintendo franchises, and favors newcomers from new titles or 3rd party characters. This is why King K.Rool and Ridley are more exceptions to the current trend of newcomers than the norm, and why they are appriciated so much for their inclusion. Echoes made it possible for Dark Samus to be in, otherwise she definitely wouldn't have happened. Animal Crossing got Isabelle, but we can argue that Villager was kind of a late addition to Smash 4 as well, because he was straight up denied for Brawl due to not being "fighter material". Even Pikmin had Alph denied two times for his own character slot...

Just try to look at the overall pattern of things. Newcomers of older core Smash franchises just aren't a common thing, unless it's from the Mario, Pokemon or Fire Emblem franchises. And even Fire Emblem just got lucky because of Echoes (:4lucina::ultchrom:) and DLC (:4feroy::4corrinf:).

So really, it's just Mario and Pokemon who are sort of guranteed for a newcomer everytime. Maybe we can get newcomers from the DKC, Zelda, Kirby, StarFox or Wario franchises after they've included the most iconic 3rd parties? Am not sure at this point... the roster is already huge, and we might only see newcomers if they are easily to recreate out of current fighters, wether it's being a Echo or a semi-clone. I could see the likes of Dixie, Impa, Bandana Dee, Slippy Toad and some Wario character make it, but only if theyr'e semi-clones... Which might be the highly suspected 'Fighter Pass 2' for all we know?

I won't judge untill we see the last DLC character being added. I personally think the "neglect" of DKC is highly because Sakurai favors 3rd party additions now. But my opinion holds no higher water than any of yours here.
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
1,807
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
RetrogamerMax2
I've read through this thread, well admittedly just the first page, and I still agree a lot with what the OP says. But there's good counter-points as well.

I don't think Sakurai necessarily hates DKC, or not care about it. I think he's shown the franchise quite some love. But it's apperant that outside of Brawl, he was never really all that much into expanding existant franchises of Smash Bros. And we're just quite unlucky as DKC fans that Diddy was never considered for Melee, or even 64 (given how big DKC was at that time it was a good possibility). Because the massive outcry for Diddy pushed K.Rool and Dixie support waaaay to the background, where it was only untill the Smash 4 ballot that the Smash development team and Sakurai knew about the immensive popularity of King K.Rool.

Before that, all the DKC fans rallied behind Diddy's inclusion. And I think that was the part where DKC fans where the most united. We wanted Diddy in Smash, as we felt he deserved it. There was no division between the supporters as with Smash 4 with the K.Rool and Dixie fanbases. This was probably also because Diddy was more seen in recent games around that time. But it's not like K.Rool and Dixie where completely absent because we got tons of DK games made by PAON; DK King of Swing, DK Jungle Climber (EVERY DKC fan should play this little gem btw!) and DK Barrel Blast... shame Nintendo lost them, because am sure many more DKC spin-offs would've been made by them, and they where the most loyal to the franchise out of any developer (counting even Rare).

Also the whole mindset behind the newcomers in Smash 4 was working against King K.Rool quite a bit. It was all about who's recent and who's a big 3rd party character with good ties to Nintendo. Nevertheless, the Kremlings where added in Smash Run as enemies despite them having new appearances on a 3DS game or anything and the Jungle Hijinx stage was real hype and very detailed and true to DKCR. Knowing that DKCR was obviously the biggest thing happening for the DKC franchise ever since Brawl, it's also kind of logical that Sakurai didn't really consider a DKC newcomer a top priority. King K.Rool was also absent from that game, as was Dixie. However, Dixie could've / should've been a newcomer because of DKC Tropical Freeze...

It's a bit hit or miss with Sakurai and his love and attention for DKC. The animations for the Kongs and K.Rool are superb and couldn't even have been replicated by Rare themselves (speaking of modern Rare), and their movesets are full of detail towards DKC elements. There's good stages, but all of them are jungle levels.. which isn't all that bad because all of Metroid stages are lava based, and all of StarFox stages are space based. It's honestly not all that bad.

I would like to remember you all that Zelda also hasn't had a proper newcomer ever since Toon Link in Brawl. They sort of cheated with this, making Zelda and Sheik separate in Smash 4, and re-adding Young Link and revamping the 3 main Zelda characters just enough for Ultimate to make them feel fresh and justifying the existence of 3 Link characters, but yeah the cast is pretty much the same as Melee's or Smash 4's, only with a extra small Link...

Star Fox also had Wolf balantly removed from Smash 4, and safe for DLC, MOTHER also lost Lucas.

I think it's just Sakurai not really feeling it much of a priority to add to older Nintendo franchises, and favors newcomers from new titles or 3rd party characters. This is why King K.Rool and Ridley are more exceptions to the current trend of newcomers than the norm, and why they are appriciated so much for their inclusion. Echoes made it possible for Dark Samus to be in, otherwise she definitely wouldn't have happened. Animal Crossing got Isabelle, but we can argue that Villager was kind of a late addition to Smash 4 as well, because he was straight up denied for Brawl due to not being "fighter material". Even Pikmin had Alph denied two times for his own character slot...

Just try to look at the overall pattern of things. Newcomers of older core Smash franchises just aren't a common thing, unless it's from the Mario, Pokemon or Fire Emblem franchises. And even Fire Emblem just got lucky because of Echoes (:4lucina::ultchrom:) and DLC (:4feroy::4corrinf:).

So really, it's just Mario and Pokemon who are sort of guranteed for a newcomer everytime. Maybe we can get newcomers from the DKC, Zelda, Kirby, StarFox or Wario franchises after they've included the most iconic 3rd parties? Am not sure at this point... the roster is already huge, and we might only see newcomers if they are easily to recreate out of current fighters, wether it's being a Echo or a semi-clone. I could see the likes of Dixie, Impa, Bandana Dee, Slippy Toad and some Wario character make it, but only if theyr'e semi-clones... Which might be the highly suspected 'Fighter Pass 2' for all we know?

I won't judge untill we see the last DLC character being added. I personally think the "neglect" of DKC is highly because Sakurai favors 3rd party additions now. But my opinion holds no higher water than any of yours here.
Smash 4's development didn't started until I think Spring of 2012 so Sakurai and the team probably wouldn't know anything about Tropical Freeze during the beginning of Smash 4's development. But honestly, there was no excuse as to why Dixie wasn't included as DLC in Smash 4.


Also, I believe as long as Sakurai is in charge, the big focus in each new Smash will be 3rd party characters no matter how far down the barrel they get.
 
Last edited:

Zeke The Zekenator

Something something Stratospheric Thunder
Premium
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
2,093
Well, have finished reading for the most part, and honestly most of this thread is pretty much hot garbage. A lot of the issues with characters, AT, items and so on not added is due to issues in the implementation, resources being allocated to somewhere else or simply a matter of timing.

Someone was suggesting animal buddies which would require mounting animations for every character which amounts to a lot more work added just to see a new item added, which also outside a few of them they would be pretty useless (Engarde, Ratty, and Winky for example don't seem very useful to me in a game like Smash). Some items that were proposed like the rocket barrels that would overlap with the Super Launch Star.

Dixie is a fine choice but remember that with her hair mechanics, she would need to be a semi-clone(a la Luigi/Roy) or a new character altogether so its a character that requires a lot more resources than say Lucina/Chrom/Dark Pit/Daisy. And characters like Corrin were selected due to different factors, like having a new character from a recent game to appear in Smash and honestly the only real competition she could've gotten is pretty much Elma from Xenoblade Chronicles X.
Smash 4's development didn't started until I think Spring of 2012 so Sakurai and the team probably wouldn't know anything about Tropical Freeze during the beginning of Smash 4's development. But honestly, there was no excuse as to why Dixie wasn't included as DLC in Smash 4.


Also, I believe as long as Sakurai is in charge, the big focus in each new Smash will be 3rd party characters no matter how far down the barrel they get.
Dunno mate, I would argue that if they are going for third parties then the choices that would be pretty much scratching the bottom of the barrel would be Nintendo first party reps. It helps playing non-Nintendo stuff.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
1,807
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
RetrogamerMax2
Dunno mate, I would argue that if they are going for third parties then the choices that would be pretty much scratching the bottom of the barrel would be Nintendo first party reps. It helps playing non-Nintendo stuff.
Of course there's bigger and better 3rd party section of characters that could get in over Nintendo characters. But Dixie Kong, Waluigi, Bandana Dee, and Toad are really the last big Nintendo omissions from the roster that should get in next or at some point.
 
Last edited:

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
23,448
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Smash 4's development didn't started until I think Spring of 2012 so Sakurai and the team probably wouldn't know anything about Tropical Freeze during the beginning of Smash 4's development. But honestly, there was no excuse as to why Dixie wasn't included as DLC in Smash 4.

Also, I believe as long as Sakurai is in charge, the big focus in each new Smash will be 3rd party characters no matter how far down the barrel they get.
I disagree. I do think there's a good enough reason for Dixie not to be a DLC character in Smash 4. For once, all of the DLC characters where either veterans, or 3rd party characters, and well there's also Corrin, but we know about that situation. Mewtwo, Lucas and Roy are more popular than Dixie because of Smash, we can't argue that, especially Mewtwo. Bayonetta probably got in due to decent ballot results and Nintendo basically making Bayonetta a glorified Nintendo character in a way. Corrin got lucky, Ryu is extremely iconic and Mega Man also already got in before him, so consider that lucky as well.

I am not sure what Sakurai is aiming towards next for the franchise, but I doubt that Smash would be better off without him. Or the DKC representation for that matter. Because the biggest reason why I defended Sakurai in my post, is because he has shown DKC way more love than Nintendo themselves did ever since Brawl, and probably before (remember DK Jungle Beat?)... I would trust Sakurai in making a DKC game before Nintendo themselves honestly.

As with the 3rd party character focus, yes, I don't like it either. But hopefully we can get Banjo-Kazooie to join Smash because of this... That's all the reason am currently not complaining about this too much (believe me I did complain a ton when Joker got revealed to be the first DLC character for Ultimate, ask around).

Regarding the whole "Donkey Kong is part of Mario" fiasco, I disagree. Yes Nintendo has official renders of Mario and DK togheter, even with Diddy along most of the time, but that's just because Mario, Peach, Bowser, DK and Diddy are just about the most popular Nintendo characters in general. It makes more sense for them to be lumped togheter than Mario, Kirby, Pikachu and Samus for example. That, and the franchise are obviously tied, and take place in the same universe. I won't deny that. It's just that DKC has become it's own thing ever since 1994. Mario doesn't have any sort of role in the DKC games. He only had a cameo appearance in DKC2, but so did Yoshi and Link, and it's not really part of the main game. Donkey Kong did appear in many Mario spin-off games. But I think that's the charm of the Mario spin-off games, the coming togheter of all the franchsies tied to Mario.

And yet, DKC stands stronger on it's own even WITHIN the Mario games because DK always gets a racing track of his own, a sort of jungle stage with Kremlings and / or KlapTraps, Diddy Kong as a extra character (Funky Kong, Dixie Kong, Tiny Kong and K.Rool as well even, even if it's not nearly as frequent). And you know why? Donkey Kong is just immensively popular, and very marketable. Nintendo knows this despite not being able to handle the franchise themselves. They tried to link the franchises back again with Mario vs Donkey Kong, but it took till up to the latest title in that "sub franchise" to add things related to DKC, as a Diddy Kong toy and other slight DKC references. The main enemies in those games are Mario enemies, Mario is the only one playable most of the time, and the whole setting just screams Mario... It's basically a modern version of the Arcade games, because that's the only way Nintendo can handle DK themselves.

Yoshi and Wario where literally created to be part of Mario's franchise, but branched out like DK did due to their own games. Yet all their games had stronger ties with Mario games, even if DK also appeared as a baby in Yoshi Island DS. Let's not forget that almost all the other Yoshi games had Baby Mario as a key character. Wario Land's gameplay is also very much inspired by Mario games with their powerups and whatnot, plus Wario appeared in Super Mario 64 DS. DK was denied a role in Mario Oddysey, where he had every reason to appear in.

So no, I do think they are seperate franchises, but still obviously linked.
 

Zeke The Zekenator

Something something Stratospheric Thunder
Premium
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
2,093
Of course there's bigger and better 3rd party section of characters that could get in over Nintendo characters. But Dixie Kong, Waluigi, Bandana Dee, and Toad are really the last big Nintendo omissions from the roster that should get in next or at some point.
They would be nice if they are playable, but honestly I could see them not being playable until next game comes around or keeping their current status. I don't really feel a lot of them are big omissions but that is something that we would have to agree to disagree.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
2,158
Location
Niigata, Japan
3DS FC
3668-9945-1996
NNID
BahamurShin
Because Sonic is the only perfect attendance third party. Having a lot of content in this one game does not outdo the fact Sonic has been here since Brawl, and unlike Snake, he never left. Castlevania has no history with Smash. As a newcomer franchise, it inveritably is less important.
So we should punish other 3rd party franchises by making sure they get less content than Sonic?

Mind you though, you are bringing up a metric (perfect attendance) that Nintendo, Sakurai and maybe even Sega don't take into account when it comes to Sonic content into Smash. So this is a fan made quota.

And logic doesn't have to fit for echoes
If you pretend that things are always done without a reason, I can see this being true.

and just because you can make echoes, doesn't mean you should.
Doesn't mean they shouldn't either. They are harmless and serve as extra helpings of content.

Give me one good reason why they shouldn't make echoes that has nothing to do with your ego or personal feelings towards a franchise.

One. Good. Reason.

And no, making Sonic look good isn't one of them.
 
Last edited:

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
23,448
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Echoes are great for exanding on older franchises. But I do think that if we’re getting clonish DLC characters, they’re more refined as say Isabelle.

Dixie Kong could be a semi clone. Funky Kong could be a Echo. And that would round up DKC’s most well known cast up quite well. Unless they add something wild as Cranky, or even Rambi because **** it Piranha Plant is also here.

Then there’s Zelda, who basically needs Impa as she’s the most important character who’s not already included. That or Ganon, or both. I am hoping more for Ganon than ever since the boss fight in Ultinate honestly. I still want Impa more, but can’t deny Ganon would be awesome.

StarFox is easy, Falco and Wolf, despite being quite different are still semi clones of Fox. They are perfectly done however and play very unique, but least not forget what they came from. Slippy Toad would be a perfect addition to the roster and he’d likely be a semi clone.

Bandana Dee would make a lot of sense for Kirby and he could be build up from Kirby easily. I’m more talking about a Kirby / Jigglypuff sort of thing, and he obviously still has his spear. But aerials and even some tilts could be taken from Kirby no problem as well as his general stats. And even if not Bandana Dee, there’s Galactia Knight.

Then Fire Emblem. It’s quite easy to make Echoes from the current cast, or base new characters on the current cast.

This is why I’m not opposed to having more semi clones.
 
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
6,292
Location
Miami, NYC
3DS FC
5129-1683-5306
NNID
NapoleonPlays
Switch FC
SW 3124 9647 8311
Doesn't mean they shouldn't either. They are harmless and serve as extra helpings of content.

Give me one good reason why they shouldn't make echoes that has nothing to do with your ego or personal feelings towards a franchise.

One. Good. Reason.

And no, making Sonic look good isn't one of them.
I think it could be argued that spending any time on echoes versus a new character still takes resources from the new characters. Sure, we could have Chrom, Dark Samus, Daisy, and Richter- but if each took a quarter the time of a new character (to create and balance), then maybe the new character actually has more to offer the series.

If not, you'd be agreeing that it could be plausible to take out 4 characters who are unique, and add in 16 more echoes, because that's more characters and is better.

It's about quality or quantity. Echoes are great, in my opinion, but certainly not without devoted resources.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,137
I think it could be argued that spending any time on echoes versus a new character still takes resources from the new characters. Sure, we could have Chrom, Dark Samus, Daisy, and Richter- but if each took a quarter the time of a new character (to create and balance), then maybe the new character actually has more to offer the series.

If not, you'd be agreeing that it could be plausible to take out 4 characters who are unique, and add in 16 more echoes, because that's more characters and is better.

It's about quality or quantity. Echoes are great, in my opinion, but certainly not without devoted resources.
And this is why echoes and semi-echoes alike need to be selected with the same care as "full" characters. Players need to appreciate both their inclusion and the fact that they play similar to their counterparts.
 
Top