Does Sakurai dislike/not care about the Donkey Kong franchise?

[Deleted member]

And if you think DK has nothing to do with Mario, tell me where they got the idea for Collect 100 of something for a 1-up and jumping on enemies to kill them.

Ah, so Sonic is a Mario spin-off then.

 

[Deleted member]

Who said I was satisfied with Wario Land's lack of content? All I'm arguing is that the Donkey Kong Country series is not a spin-off of the Mario franchise. Other than the original arcade game, Mario and Donkey Kong have never coexisted in a core game. From the get go, Donkey Kong has essentially been his own character with his own franchise. Yoshi was created to be a Mario character. Wario was created to be a Mario character. That's why his lore states that he was a "childhood rival of Mario and Luigi", alluding to the fact that they coexist. And even aside from that, are we seriously suggesting that the Wario franchise has distinguished itself so much, that we no longer look at Wario as a Mario character the way Donkey Kong has? Wario is more known for his appearances in games like Mario Tennis, Mario Party, etc. among the casual gamer. I guarantee it, especially since he's tied to Waluigi, who's exclusively a Mario character. Most people don't look at Donkey Kong as a Mario character. There's a reason why it's Nintendo's fourth best selling franchise (not including Wii Fit) behind the likes of Mario, Pokémon, and Zelda. Wario's not even close. And there's also a reason why characters like King K. Rool are so insanely popular, who have almost never taken part in anything Mario related. Also, if you even research the Wario series, it's always dubbed as a "spin-off of the Mario franchise." Donkey Kong is never listed this way.

You know that DK also appears in the same spinoffs Wario does right? Even some times with Diddy and Funky? DK shares the same origin as Mario and he shares a few titles with him like the Mario vs DK series which pretty much started with DK 94. They are their own series but calling Wario more of a subset is silly when DK is pretty much in the same situation.

Plus, K. Rool while popular, only got insanely popular with the community post-Brawl. During the Brawl speculation period while he somewhat well-known, people forget that there were quite a few characters like MM, Sonic or Krystal that pretty much eclipsed him in popularity (it also didn't helped back then that we didn't had Diddy yet). Popularity is not consistent (with probably the exception to this being Ridley) and one thing that could've helped K. Rool get in now is pretty much his absence is notable on the new DKC games for many fans.

 

[UserKev]

And no, I dont think Sakurai has a negative opinion of DK at all. I think he likes the series a lot actually. Just the amount of care put into personalities and animations shows a lot of love.

Your always so incredibly positive, dude. Haha The care put into personalities and animations, to defeat laziness.

 

[Mccdbz5]

You know that DK also appears in the same spinoffs Wario does right? Even some times with Diddy and Funky? DK shares the same origin as Mario and he shares a few titles with him like the Mario vs DK series which pretty much started with DK 94. They are their own series but calling Wario more of a subset is silly when DK is pretty much in the same situation.

I agree. I do agree that Wario has become its own series. I guess for me personally, I feel like Wario was initially created with the purpose of being considered a Mario character. He wears a nearly identical outfit as the other characters, his lore describes relationships with the Mario characters, and he was also introduced in a core Mario game when the Mario franchise actually had an identity. Even the name "Wario" itself says a lot haha. I feel like with Donkey Kong, aside from an ancient arcade game that didn't really have an identity as far as what the franchise was going to become, he's always been a part of something entirely separate. I think Wario has become that, but came from fleshed out Mario origins.

The other thing for me, and this is just my opinion, is that most casual gamers look at Wario as a Mario character. Most of my friends don't play games like that, but know your run of the mill stuff, like what Mario is, DK is, Zelda is, etc. These are people I work with, as well as people I play pickup basketball with, etc. Whenever I have friends over to hangout and play games like Smash, most people know and remember who characters like Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, and even King K. Rool are. Because they remember playing games like Donkey Kong Country and DK 64. I don't know many people who played Wario Land besides actual gamers. As someone who's played the franchise myself, it never felt anywhere near as mainstream. And so, to most people in my circle (downtown Atlanta), most people associate Wario as a Mario character. Especially since, again, his "partner in crime" if you will, is exclusively a Mario character. So again, this is just based on my experience. For me personally, I look at Wario as having become its own thing. I just think more people would commonly associate Wario as a Mario character, where as most people understand that Donkey Kong is its own thing, having starred in a number of extremely popular and memorable titles.

Plus, K. Rool while popular, only got insanely popular with the community post-Brawl. During the Brawl speculation period while he somewhat well-known, people forget that there were quite a few characters like MM, Sonic or Krystal that pretty much eclipsed him in popularity (it also didn't helped back then that we didn't had Diddy yet). Popularity is not consistent (with probably the exception to this being Ridley) and one thing that could've helped K. Rool get in now is pretty much his absence is notable on the new DKC games for many fans.

I remember when Melee was coming out (I'm 27, so I was a kid back then, so I could be wrong), there were a lot of people who wanted Diddy Kong and King K. Rool to be in Melee, especially since the DK franchise was much more relevant back then. The thing with Brawl and Diddy Kong, in my opinion, was that everyone put their energy into getting Diddy Kong in, which took away from King K. Rool's support, because there were a lot of people, including myself, who felt Diddy Kong should've been in since Melee. If you remember, once Diddy Kong got confirmed for Brawl, King K. Rool immediately shot up in popularity. This is something we've often covered in the King K. Rool support thread.

 

[Quillion]

I feel like with Donkey Kong, aside from an ancient arcade game that didn't really have an identity as far as what the franchise was going to become, he's always been a part of something entirely separate.

It's also well established that DK is part of the Marioverse. Same as Yoshi and Wario. You can spin it any way you want but DK is part of Mario now.

And DK doesn't have to be exclusively its own thing or part of Mario. Because it's both. People know DK both for the spinoffs and the DKC series.

 

[Mccdbz5]

It's also well established that DK is part of the Marioverse. Same as Yoshi and Wario. You can spin it any way you want but DK is part of Mario now.

And DK doesn't have to be exclusively its own thing or part of Mario. Because it's both. People know DK both for the spinoffs and the DKC series.

But being part of the same universe doesn't make it a spin-off...so is Batman a spin-off of Superman? They exist in the same universe and there's plenty of instances in which both of those characters interact with each other. Yet, they're two completely separate franchises that could exist without the other. So you can also 'spin it' any way you want. Just because you say DK is a spin-off of Mario doesn't mean that it is. I've given many reasons why this is to the contrary. You're just saying DK is part of Mario...because you think it is. Again, aside from an old arcade game that has nothing in common, from a gameplay or identity standpoint, with any core Mario or Donkey Kong game, they've never been a part of each other's main-line series games. They are strictly separate franchises. Being part of the same universe doesn't mean that one game is a spin-off of another.

Not trying to come off any way or anything, but you're stating things as facts that simply aren't.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

We got King K. Rool because of the ballot...not sure how the addition of the character validates anything. Had it not been for the ballot, he wouldn't have been included.

Characters don't design themselves though.

They could have chosen to ignore the votes and never publish the ballot results. They have the right to include who they want without consumer input. Instead, they went for the fanservice and actually included a character that people requested. It's better late than never.

No matter how you slice it, you can't take away the fact that they bothered to give us K. Rool. There is no need to be backhanded about everything. Give credit where credit is due.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I like to think DK is in some sort-of separate dimension from Mario's, but he's still able to get to Mario's universe through a warp or something.

Or he still uses a warp to get to where Mario is, but it's the same universe, I don't know. I just like the Rare stuff and how DK, Banjo-Kazooie, Conker and whoever seem to be in the same universe, and may have been considered as being so if Diddy Kong Racing is considered canon.

Regarding Sakurai's potential views on the DK series, I don't think he hates it, but I don't know, maybe he's just not sure what to use or something.

 

[Xelrog]

Keep in mind that the pool of stages we see in Ultimate is from all the Smash games put together. In the individual games, the DK series typically only got one level, and it was a jungle level because if you're only going to have one DK level a jungle is the best rep for the series.

It's only because the jungle level from Smash 64, the one from Melee, and the one from Smash 4 are all in this pool now that it appears to be a lack of variety.

 

[Mccdbz5]

Characters don't design themselves though.

They could have chosen to ignore the votes and never publish the ballot results. They have the right to include who they want without consumer input. Instead, they went for the fanservice and actually included a character that people requested. It's better late than never.

No matter how you slice it, you can't take away the fact that they bothered to give us K. Rool. There is no need to be backhanded about everything. Give credit where credit is due.

Well first off, I'm incredibly grateful for King K. Rool's inclusion. And they designed him with a lot of care. And I agree, as I stated above, that while I think it's long overdue, I also said better late than never. I'm just looking at things with context. While I appreciate that King K. Rool was included, I also understand that had it not been for the ballot, that wouldn't have been the case. And even with the ballot, had a character such as, I don't know, Kamek from Yoshi or Krystal from Star Fox, received as many votes as King K. Rool and he received barely any, they would've taken his place. He wasn't added because he was deserving or because the franchise was deserving. And that's why I say, had it also not been for the ballot, we would've gone yet another game without a new DK rep, as I highly doubt Dixie Kong or some other character was canned due to King K. Rool's inclusion. I have a problem knowing that there was no true intention to add a new Donkey Kong character.

So while I'm grateful, I can still be objective and critical. We live in this world where if we're not appreciative of everything a company does or we're objective, it's looked at as negative. I'm sorry, but I don't need to give Sakurai a lot of credit for adding a character when he otherwise would've completely ignored the character had it not been for a poll that was designed to drum up publicity, a la a business move. What I will applaud, is that they handled his design with care and creativity, and made his return truly special.

 

[Deleted member]

Link is a Mario character. He has appeared in some Mario games and vice-versa

 

[Sabertooth]

Dixie and Funky have more of a legacy than 60% of the Smash cast. They should both be in Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

Dixie and Funky have more of a legacy than 60% of the Smash cast. They should both be in Smash.

I honestly would've taken Funky over Chrom

 

[Quillion]

But being part of the same universe doesn't make it a spin-off...so is Batman a spin-off of Superman? They exist in the same universe and there's plenty of instances in which both of those characters interact with each other. Yet, they're two completely separate franchises that could exist without the other.

That is a false equivalence. DC's universe was made up of initially standalone heroes and lores that they stitched together. DK and Mario absolutely would not exist without the other. Donkey Kong was a proto-entity that split off into both Mario and DKC, and Nintendo acknowledges this by having casts of both reunite from time to time.

He wasn't added because he was deserving or because the franchise was deserving. And that's why I say, had it also not been for the ballot, we would've gone yet another game without a new DK rep, as I highly doubt Dixie Kong or some other character was canned due to King K. Rool's inclusion. I have a problem knowing that there was no true intention to add a new Donkey Kong character.

Give me the source where Sakurai says that K. Rool didn't deserve to be in Smash if it weren't for his popularity.

Because the ballot was their attempt at finding a way to quantify character popularity, which is probably factor #1 or close to it when it comes to characters being "deserving". Sakurai even thinks Geno, the one-shot Mario RPG character, is deserving on his popularity alone, even if there are at least a few unknown factors stopping him from working.

 

[Captain Shades]

That is a false equivalence. DC's universe was made up of initially standalone heroes and lores that they stitched together. DK and Mario absolutely would not exist without the other. Donkey Kong was a proto-entity that split off into both Mario and DKC, and Nintendo acknowledges this by having casts of both reunite from time to time.

The equivalence to the DC Universe could still work as there are plenty of characters that came from DC stand-alones. I’m sure most would say Teen Titans is its own thing even if it is solely comprised of side-kicks. If we are going by video games, obviously the Rabbids are considered their own franchise even though they spawned from Rayman. It really comes down to treatment after the decision to split off is made. I wouldn’t consider DK a spin-off anymore, it’s sort of it’s own thing while still being somewhat tethered to the Mario franchise. Honestly, both DK and WarioWare are their own things as they have little to no ties with Mario outside of the main character. At this point they are more subsets of Mario with Yoshi and Luigi being the closest related subsets, DK being in the middle, and WarioWare at the far end as unlike the others it has been completely isolated from Mario outside of Wario himself.

I honestly would've taken Funky over Chrom

Offf... I know people who play Smash don’t seem to like FE, but Chrom really was a great choice, especially since him, Lucina, and Marth are FE’s mascots at the moment, so he’s more important than say Roy or Corrin.

Link is a Mario character. He has appeared in some Mario games and vice-versa

I mean, Chain Chomp and goombas were in Zelda, just saying.

Give me the source where Sakurai says that K. Rool didn't deserve to be in Smash if it weren't for his popularity.

Because the ballot was their attempt at finding a way to quantify character popularity, which is probably factor #1 or close to it when it comes to characters being "deserving". Sakurai even thinks Geno, the one-shot Mario RPG character, is deserving on his popularity alone, even if there are at least a few unknown factors stopping him from working

Honestly, to defend Mccdbz5 he is right. Sakurai stated that K Rool was a ballot pick and nothing else, he even admitted to being surprised that people choose him. Had there not been a ballot, K Rool wouldn’t have made it. In a way, that shows that Sakurai doesn’t view Donkey Kong characters as important outside of DK and Diddy. The more irritating part for many is that DK is no Golden Sun where it has a smaller fan base and has fallen into obscurity. To many, DK is a huge franchise yet apparently its main villain and third main character are acted as though they don’t exist and the franchise is left starved for characters.

The ballot was the reason K Rool got in, and even though DK is one of Nintendo’s biggest sellers, apparently without the ballot, Sakurai has declared Fire Emblem, Metroid, Star Fox, and Mother to be on an equal playing field if not above DK. Even Metroid, for as bad as it’s representation seemed, still had 2 characters, Ridley given major importance in all titles since Brawl, and 1-2 assists per game. Even now, Metroid has more characters than DK even though it is way smaller and is in the same limited character boat as DK. (The Metroid Prime Trilogy as a whole sold less than DKCR to put it into perspective.)

I think the main idea is, why does a ballot determine the worth of a DK character. Mario and Pokemon, along with pretty much the rest of the cast can all slip in characters without needing requests, but a major player like DK needs the fandom to rally behind a character to even have a chance at inclusion. I know the sales of a franchise shouldn’t completely determine a roster, but to see a massive titan like DK gimped on the level he is is truly sad, at least give DK the four slots he deserves.

 

[Xelrog]

I think the main idea is, why does a ballot determine the worth of a DK character. Mario and Pokemon, along with pretty much the rest of the cast can all slip in characters without needing requests

Mario and Pokemon are several tens of times bigger series than DK.

Really, the only series that doesn't have an excuse being as repped as it is is Fire Emblem, which in its defense is mostly a weird family tree of clones and semiclones. Everything else is more or less right where it should be, DK included. If anything, Yoshi is the under-repped series. Yoshi/DK/Kirby are all of comparable size and significance, and two of those have three characters in the game.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

FE isn't small nowadays but is not as big as Mario or Pokemon. The best way to explain FE characters in Smash is that they got lucky due to the circumstances around them.
Ironic, because prior to Awakening the series was in a tough spot. Roy returned due to demand, Corrin just happened to have a game around the corner and Nintendo wanted to use him/her as promotion, and two of the three main characters from Awakening were easy to implement and were an inch of being relegated to alts. In another timeline, FE would have probably had four characters, with Lucina and Chrom being alts like Alph. I don't fuss about FE because two are convenient clones, and one is a semi clone. I also don't happen to care that much about keeping a headcount on who is "winning" in representation.

And I don't see how Yoshi is underrepresented. First, it's an extended branch of the Mario universe and it uses a lot of characters from the Mario games. The only notorious characters you play as are the Yoshis. There is Baby Bowser and Kamek who are the antagonists, but then again they are another borrowed element from the Mario universe, as the former is just a younger Bowser and the latter is magikoopa. If people think that Yoshi is underrepresented because there are no other characters in the roster with the egg symbol, then that would be pretty silly and arbitrary, as that is merely a label.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

FE isn't small nowadays but is not as big as Mario or Pokemon. The best way to explain FE characters in Smash is that they got lucky due to the circumstances around them.
Ironic, because prior to Awakening the series was in a tough spot. Roy returned due to demand, Corrin just happened to have a game around the corner and Nintendo wanted to use him/her as promotion, and two of the three main characters from Awakening were easy to implement and were an inch of being relegated to alts. In another timeline, FE would have probably had four characters, with Lucina and Chrom being alts like Alph. I don't fuss about FE because two are convenient clones, and one is a semi clone. I also don't happen to care that much about keeping a headcount on who is "winning" in representation.

No one is calling FE small, we're simply recognizing he fact that DK is much bigger and more iconic.

And for crying out loud why are we even bringing up FE in a discussion about Donkey Kong.

 

[Sabertooth]

I think the sticking point is that Dixie Kong isn't just "the fourth DK character", but an actual Nintendo all-star on her own merits. Like, if the only Donkey Kong games in existence were the games she was in, I'd still say she should be included. And if we can just randomly get "easy echoes" that "take little to no development time" for Fire Emblem, then Funky Kong (a character who's been around as long as Diddy and has been in tons of games with a recent starring role) is beyond worthy.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Mario and Pokemon are several tens of times bigger series than DK.

Really, the only series that doesn't have an excuse being as repped as it is is Fire Emblem, which in its defense is mostly a weird family tree of clones and semiclones. Everything else is more or less right where it should be, DK included. If anything, Yoshi is the under-repped series. Yoshi/DK/Kirby are all of comparable size and significance, and two of those have three characters in the game.

Yoshi doesn’t have any other major characters that wouldn’t be majorly stretching it. DK has had a family of colorful protagonists, each with their own unique abilities that are prime for Smash. Even in Mario Super Sluggers, we had DK, Diddy, Dixie, K. Rool, Funky, and Tiny for the DK team. Where for Yoshi we had palette swaps of Yoshi (which we have had since 64) and Shy Guy, and then Birdo (who could be a Yoshi echo, but she would be under the Mario franchise just like how Waluigi would be a Mario character rather than a Wario character).

It’s the same way Fire Emblem gets so many characters because every game has a different protagonist so there are so many of them to choose from, where other series have mostly had their main options done.

 

[Mccdbz5]

That is a false equivalence. DC's universe was made up of initially standalone heroes and lores that they stitched together. DK and Mario absolutely would not exist without the other. Donkey Kong was a proto-entity that split off into both Mario and DKC, and Nintendo acknowledges this by having casts of both reunite from time to time.

My only point is that just because they're from the same universe doesn't mean that one is a spin-off of the other. And saying Mario and DK would not exist without the other is absolutely ludicrous. So there's no way the Mario franchise or the Donkey Kong franchise would've become what they are if it weren't for the arcade game that has almost NOTHING to do with what those franchises have become? What those franchises went on to become has almost nothing to do with that game. They could've never used Donkey Kong as a character again and I guarantee you the Mario franchise would still be what it is today, and vice versa.

And even then, did you ever think that, I don't know, sometimes Nintendo just throws characters together for no good or canonical reason? Is Zelda suddenly a spin-off of Mario because Link appeared in Mario Kart 8? Are they suddenly part of the same universe? The Mario franchise itself is not even strictly considered canon, so I don't know why we're living by this law that if these characters are in the same game, it means X Y and Z.

Give me the source where Sakurai says that K. Rool didn't deserve to be in Smash if it weren't for his popularity.

Because the ballot was their attempt at finding a way to quantify character popularity, which is probably factor #1 or close to it when it comes to characters being "deserving". Sakurai even thinks Geno, the one-shot Mario RPG character, is deserving on his popularity alone, even if there are at least a few unknown factors stopping him from working.

He has stated before that the reason for his inclusion was the ballot, and that he was even surprised that the character was so popular. The fact that he was surprised by it shows the character most likely would not have been in consideration had it not been for the ballot. And again, when you consider that, you realize that there was never any true intention to add another Donkey Kong newcomer.

Mario and Pokemon are several tens of times bigger series than DK.

Really, the only series that doesn't have an excuse being as repped as it is is Fire Emblem, which in its defense is mostly a weird family tree of clones and semiclones. Everything else is more or less right where it should be, DK included. If anything, Yoshi is the under-repped series. Yoshi/DK/Kirby are all of comparable size and significance, and two of those have three characters in the game.

I agree with this. And personally, as much as I love the DK franchise, I don't think it should rival Mario or Pokémon in content. They're in a league of their own. I think being somewhat close to Zelda in representation isn't a stretch though. I think DK's sales numbers would be as good if not better than Zelda's if there were anywhere near as many core titles released. Honestly, if DK had at least one more character, maybe a stage or two more, and an assist trophy like Rambi, I think that would be sufficient and fair.

And Yoshi is a franchise I always wanted to see a little more from as well. Not way more content, but I always loved the idea of Kamek as a character, or even Poochy.

FE isn't small nowadays but is not as big as Mario or Pokemon. The best way to explain FE characters in Smash is that they got lucky due to the circumstances around them.
Ironic, because prior to Awakening the series was in a tough spot. Roy returned due to demand, Corrin just happened to have a game around the corner and Nintendo wanted to use him/her as promotion, and two of the three main characters from Awakening were easy to implement and were an inch of being relegated to alts. In another timeline, FE would have probably had four characters, with Lucina and Chrom being alts like Alph. I don't fuss about FE because two are convenient clones, and one is a semi clone. I also don't happen to care that much about keeping a headcount on who is "winning" in representation.

I understand that Fire Emblem isn't small. Earlier, I just said that it was small in comparison to the level of success that DK has had as a franchise. That in no way makes it a small franchise though. My gripe with Fire Emblem is that while I understand it's come up in popularity, to say that the franchise needs the amount of content it has, like seven characters, three assist trophies, more music and spirits than a lot of other franchises like DK, is overdoing it to me. Especially when you consider that Fire Emblem is a revolving door when it comes to which characters are in which games. Other than Marth, I think one to two other characters is enough, but I'm completely fine with having more. My problem is when they add all these additional characters to Fire Emblem, but then a series like DK can't get a bone, it just comes off as biased to me. But I personally feel like Sakurai has always had a bias for the Japanese, anime style sword characters. Even look at how he had to literally give an explanation as to why Rex from Xenoblade 2 wasn't going to be included in the game, as if it's a given and expected for him to be included in the first place. When has any character gotten that treatment? Did we ever get an explanation for why so many other deserving characters have never been included with the expectation that they'll later be included? He could've said the same thing for say, I don't know, Funky Kong for example. I'm sorry, but I personally found that to be ridiculous, where he put his bias on display.

 

[Xelrog]

Yoshi doesn’t have any other major characters that wouldn’t be majorly stretching it.

Neither does Donkey Kong.

The DK series subsisted on a small handful of failed spinoffs for years and only recently got two--count 'em, two--decent platforming games. I don't know where this illusion that it's a major franchise came from, but it seems be causing some confusion as to why there's not more DK in Smash, and I'm explaining the plain facts as to why this isn't the case. Whether the confused wish to take those facts or remain in denial is up to them. If you're happier thinking your trophy boy DK runs a much bigger operation than he actually does, then by all means.

 

[Mccdbz5]

Neither does Donkey Kong.

The DK series subsisted on a small handful of failed spinoffs for years and only recently got two--count 'em, two--decent platforming games. I don't know where this illusion that it's a major franchise came from, but it seems be causing some confusion as to why there's not more DK in Smash, and I'm explaining the plain facts as to why this isn't the case. Whether the confused wish to take those facts or remain in denial is up to them. If you're happier thinking your trophy boy DK runs a much bigger operation than he actually does, then by all means.

Decent platforming games? Oh come on, what are we doing here? Returns and especially Tropical Freeze are considered some of the best platformers of all time. "Decent" is a gross understatement. The rest of the main-line series is also highly regarded. It's not the franchise's fault that Nintendo treats it like the step child they never wanted. Even those "failed spin-offs" have performed better than a lot of games that you seem to consider larger franchises. And discounting the notion that Donkey Kong is a major franchise because Nintendo has mishandled it is unfair. There's a reason why Returns outsold the entire Metroid Prime Trilogy. Even Tropical Freeze on the Switch has done very well, even being a port that was sold at a higher price than the original game. And hell, even the Wii U version of the game, which a lot of people considered a flop, still sold 2 million copies, which is better than every Fire Emblem game ever made except what, two games? Mind you, Tropical Freeze was released on a failed platform at the worst time of the year for retail. The interest in the series is absolutely there. Nintendo just hasn't handled the franchise the way they should.

 

[Rhus]

It's likely worth noting that representation in the eyes of fandom that isn't for Mario or Pokemon will probably appear to be disappointing.

Also representation and "love" for a franchise in smash has very very little correlation to the franchise's: 1) recent success, 2) legacy, 3) relative sales

What I mean is there is massive inconsistency in representation based on these metrics in smash. The Mother series is finished - the only series in smash to be specified as concluded, and it received more love than most of the All Star franchises in ultimate. Star Fox, which revolutionized its genre forever, got no new remixes at all or stages. I say this as a huge fan of both of these franchises, and DK as well.

DK is in a good spot in ultimate, K Rool's addition gave it a cinematic cutscene for his reveal, amazing remixes, Kongo falls being remastered and looks beautiful. I don't think it's really about the relative representation because it will inevitably feel drowned out, it's about sufficient presentation of the series itself.

 

[Mccdbz5]

It's likely worth noting that representation in the eyes of fandom that isn't for Mario or Pokemon will probably appear to be disappointing.

Also representation and "love" for a franchise in smash has very very little correlation to the franchise's: 1) recent success, 2) legacy, 3) relative sales

What I mean is there is massive inconsistency in representation based on these metrics in smash. The Mother series is finished - the only series in smash to be specified as concluded, and it received more love than most of the All Star franchises in ultimate. Star Fox, which revolutionized its genre forever, got no new remixes at all or stages. I say this as a huge fan of both of these franchises, and DK as well.

DK is in a good spot in ultimate, K Rool's addition gave it a cinematic cutscene for his reveal, amazing remixes, Kongo falls being remastered and looks beautiful. I don't think it's really about the relative representation because it will inevitably feel drowned out, it's about sufficient presentation of the series itself.

I agree with this, but that's why I mentioned earlier that it would feel odd if Donkey Kong had as much content as Mario or Pokémon, due to the scale of those franchises. I just think it's not a stretch for it to be closer to Zelda's level, given how iconic the brand is and the level of success it's had. And I agree that DK is in a decent spot right now. I just think, again, when you look at the situation with context, and understand that King K. Rool most likely wouldn't have been added if not for the ballot, everything appears much different. That means we would've gotten no new characters, no new stages, one assist trophy, and no items. Despite that, I'm grateful for the additions. I just think there's still a few more things they could add here and there.

And Star Fox is my second favorite franchise/character, so I'm with you there. It would've been nice to see something added besides just two music tracks, especially since Star Fox Zero is a recent title. At least they made Corneria look like the new Corneria.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I understand that Fire Emblem isn't small. Earlier, I just said that it was small in comparison to the level of success that DK has had as a franchise. That in no way makes it a small franchise though. My gripe with Fire Emblem is that while I understand it's come up in popularity, to say that the franchise needs the amount of content it has, like seven characters, three assist trophies, more music and spirits than a lot of other franchises like DK, is overdoing it to me. Especially when you consider that Fire Emblem is a revolving door when it comes to which characters are in which games. Other than Marth, I think one to two other characters is enough, but I'm completely fine with having more. My problem is when they add all these additional characters to Fire Emblem, but then a series like DK can't get a bone, it just comes off as biased to me. But I personally feel like Sakurai has always had a bias for the Japanese, anime style sword characters. Even look at how he had to literally give an explanation as to why Rex from Xenoblade 2 wasn't going to be included in the game, as if it's a given and expected for him to be included in the first place. When has any character gotten that treatment? Did we ever get an explanation for why so many other deserving characters have never been included with the expectation that they'll later be included? He could've said the same thing for say, I don't know, Funky Kong for example. I'm sorry, but I personally found that to be ridiculous, where he put his bias on display.

Of course there is bias. DK isn't as big in Japan as in the rest of the world. And Nintendo themselves don't know how to deal with the franchise which is why they've always handled it to external studios like Rare and Retro. The best DK games aren't even made by Nintendo, but by western developers.

Your thread also comes from a place of bias. You like DK and bemoan FE's current Smash content. So naturally, you prefer to see the one you like the most thrive over the other. You don't have to say it for it to be obvious.

And when it comes to music, composers are naturally going to gravitate towards what they feel comfortable and familiar with. They get creative freedom on what music they can work on which is why the list of music for each franchise is disproportionate. A lot of FE music is composed by Japanese composers, and a lot DK music is composed by western composers. And guess what is the nationality of most people who compose music for Smash?
I doubt there is any kind of malice involved, it's just a cultural preference.

If Smash was western developed, people would still find issues pertaining to cultural bias.

And the fact that you think you are owed an explanation for each deconfirmed character is extremely ridiculous. There are many character choices that are considered for a game like this, and the development process can be very hectic. Some choices may not make it in at all, because game development isn't easy; but I'm sure that over enthusiastic fans who are angry about their favorite character not making it in know better than the actual people who worked on the game.
Did I say favorite? Sorry, I meant 'deserving', a buzzword that is usually spouted when people are trying to bull**** themselves and others (mostly themselves) into thinking that a subjective personal preference should become a standard necessity. You say deserving when you mean "character I like".

For all we know, Funky might have never been considered at all, or he could have been but was out prioritized by choices like K. Rool, etc. Sakurai has come out before and shared information about cut content, thus giving us some insight about the development. But he is not obligated to provide such information. He doesn't have to come out to explain to you why Funky isn't in the game as a playable character. Or why Toad isn't. Or why Geno isn't. Or why Tommy the Radical Skater from that obscure NES game that nobody except two people has ever heard about that came out 500 years ago isn't in Smash as a playable character.

 

[Mccdbz5]

Of course there is bias. DK isn't as big in Japan as in the rest of the world. And Nintendo themselves don't know how to deal with the franchise which is why they've always handled it to external studios like Rare and Retro. The best DK games aren't even made by Nintendo, but by western developers.

Your thread also comes from a place of bias. You like DK and bemoan FE's current Smash content. So naturally, you prefer to see the one you like the most thrive over the other. You don't have to say it for it to be obvious.

I agree with that. I just think it's silly to say DK isn't a big franchise because Nintendo doesn't know what to do with it. There's clearly a big interest in the series among many consumers.

And I'm sorry you've been led to that assumption. I'm not trying to bemoan Fire Emblem. I even explicitly stated that I'm okay with the amount of content it has. I just think if you're going to give a franchise like that as much content as it has, DK I think would be deserving of about the same amount of content, or at least more than it currently has. I'm not calling for Fire Emblem content to be removed.

And when it comes to music, composers are naturally going to gravitate towards what they feel comfortable and familiar with. They get creative freedom on what music they can work on which is why the list of music for each franchise is disproportionate. A lot of FE music is composed by Japanese composers, and a lot DK music is composed by western composers. And guess what is the nationality of most people who compose music for Smash?
I doubt there is any kind of malice involved, it's just a cultural preference.

If Smash was western developed, people would still find issues pertaining to cultural bias.

Cultural preference doesn't excuse the fact that you're developing a product that's supposed to have appeal in more than one region. Just because they have a preference doesn't excuse neglecting particular franchises. Smash is supposed to be the culmination of all the different Nintendo franchises coming together, but because one has been primarily developed in the west, we're going to ignore it? I mean for crying out loud, Earthbound has more content than DK overall, aside from number of characters in Ultimate. I'm sorry, but as a business, you're trying to sell a product that is appealing to as many as people as possible. Not design something because that's what YOU prefer. Even if I were the director of Smash, you think I would overload the game with DK content? Hell no. I would probably add Dixie Kong, another stage or two, and an assist trophy. I'm sorry you feel that I'm biased, but me asking for a little more for one of the most iconic franchises isn't asking for much. Everyone was pretty much in unison in Smash 4 with the idea that DK was neglected. It wasn't until Ultimate with King K. Rool's inclusion that people started singing a different tune, almost entirely based off his inclusion alone.

And the fact that you think you are owed an explanation for each deconfirmed character is extremely ridiculous. There are many character choices that are considered for a game like this, and the development process can be very hectic. Some choices may not make it in at all, because game development isn't easy; but I'm sure that over enthusiastic fans who are angry about their favorite character not making it in know better than the actual people who worked on the game.
Did I say favorite? Sorry, I meant 'deserving', a buzzword that is usually spouted when people are trying to bull**** themselves and others (mostly themselves) into thinking that a subjective personal preference should become a standard necessity. You say deserving when you mean "character I like".

For all we know, Funky might have never been considered at all, or he could have been but was out prioritized by choices like K. Rool, etc. Sakurai has come out before and shared information about cut content, thus giving us some insight about the development. But he is not obligated to provide such information. He doesn't have to come out to explain to you why Funky isn't in the game as a playable character. Or why Toad isn't. Or why Geno isn't. Or why Tommy the Radical Skater from that obscure NES game that nobody except two people has ever heard about that came out 500 years ago isn't in Smash as a playable character.

Okay, do me a favor. Please go back and read what I said, because you obviously didn't comprehend it. I never asked for an explanation on why certain characters weren't added. I said the notion that a character not being included deserved an explanation was ridiculous, especially when you consider how many high profile characters over the years have not been included without an explanation. I'm essentially agreeing with you...I'm saying the bias is obvious on Sakurai's part, because he had to explain why Rex wasn't playable in this game, as if Japanese anime sword characters are a given to be added to the roster. We never got an explanation as to why King K. Rool wasn't added in the past, despite his immense popularity, so why does Rex deserve one? Why is Rex assumed to be in the game at all? That's my point. It shows it's expected that these characters will eventually become Smash fighters, otherwise he wouldn't have felt the need to address it.

And I used Funky Kong as a random example. I'm pretty confident he was never considered as a character. And I never said he had to provide explanations. If anything, I'd prefer he didn't. My point, again, was to point out how he comes off as biased, as he felt the need to tell us why a particular character couldn't be included, as if the character was expected to be in the game in the first place, because I guess all the anime characters have the right of passage.

And seriously, you can call "deserving" a buzzword, or try to tell me I'm spinning it because I like the character, but you're mistaken. I think Dixie Kong is deserving because she comes from a very popular and successful franchise and has played a big role in those games, as well as appearing in Mario crossover games, and is a very popular character herself. You know what the funny thing is? I'm not even that big a fan of Dixie Kong! There's characters I absolutely like over her, like Kamek, Banjo-Kazooie, etc. I more so feel that she deserves a roster spot based on the criteria for most roster additions (popular, relevant, move set potential, etc.) outside of some choices like retro characters. So again, you can tell me that I "just like a character" which is what I apparently think makes them deserving. But that's yet another assumption you've made that simply isn't true. I feel like Isaac deserves to be a character in Smash. Do I like the character? Not really. There's nothing wrong with being objective.

 

[Captain Shades]

Of course there is bias. DK isn't as big in Japan as in the rest of the world. And Nintendo themselves don't know how to deal with the franchise which is why they've always handled it to external studios like Rare and Retro. The best DK games aren't even made by Nintendo, but by western developers.

Didn’t Japan want K Rool in the game though? Plus DK was a franchise that over took Japan’s gaming sales with a port in May of 2018. There obviously was and is tons of love for the DK series coming from Japan, so it’s not like DK is this western only popular series. Also the entire 2000s line up of DK games were developed either by Nintendo or Namco, so clearly there was Japanese influence to not make it solely a western thing after the arcade.

Neither does Donkey Kong.

The DK series subsisted on a small handful of failed spinoffs for years and only recently got two--count 'em, two--decent platforming games. I don't know where this illusion that it's a major franchise came from, but it seems be causing some confusion as to why there's not more DK in Smash, and I'm explaining the plain facts as to why this isn't the case. Whether the confused wish to take those facts or remain in denial is up to them. If you're happier thinking your trophy boy DK runs a much bigger operation than he actually does, then by all means.

Umm.... Those games were considered more than decent by many. Some consider DKCTF to be the greatest 2D platformer ever, and other than Rayman, DK is the only one who is truly advancing the 2D platformer genre.

The “illusion” that DK was a major franchise came from the fact that DK as a franchise is massively successful. I mean, DKCR was able to outsell the entire Metroid Prime Trilogy of games. DK was even said to have essentially taken over and become the mascot face of the Super Nintendo when the Country Trilogy first released.

Honestly just look up The Geek Critique as he explains how DK was a massive franchise going into the 2000s, but Nintendo lost Rare and sort of just killed DK off because of it. Then Retro took on the franchise and made more money than any of their previous projects had earned them.

Also, Yoshi is different in the fact that it’s characters are all just baby versions of the main Mario cast, or just unused Mario enemies with the occasional original boss. Yoshi doesn’t need any more characters outside of maybe Kamek as all of Yoshi’s core cast is there with the Mario series. In comparison, DK and Wario have fully original casts that almost or never cross into the Mario universe.

FE isn't small nowadays but is not as big as Mario or Pokemon. The best way to explain FE characters in Smash is that they got lucky due to the circumstances around them.

FE is still relatively small especially in comparison to DK. To put it into perspective, the sales wikis rank Fire Emblem in the ten thousands, DK gets ranked within the millions. Even FE’s best sellers cannot outsell DK at his lowest. This is why Mccdbz5 finds the representation unbalanced between the two.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm just saying that there are tons of Donkey Kong characters who should be in a fighting game that's a celebration of nintendo/gaming history. DK got mad love in Ultimate, but Dixie and Funky should be there alongside DK, Diddy and K. Rool

 

[Sabertooth]

Ha, Mccdbz5 , I like that train of thought you've got going there. I agree about Isaac--I don't give a heck about him really, but character from a beloved GBA RPG series that's been ignored since 2009 and still has tons of fans? Sounds pretty deserving to me. People like to assume we're biased, but nah. We're just judging the "worthiness" of a character based on differing metrics. I'm honestly a little impressed that they managed to add so many characters without including Dixie Kong--now that's the stretch.

 

[Deleted member]

Eddie The Mean Old Yeti for Smash

 

[MacDaddyNook]

But being part of the same universe doesn't make it a spin-off...so is Batman a spin-off of Superman? They exist in the same universe and there's plenty of instances in which both of those characters interact with each other. Yet, they're two completely separate franchises that could exist without the other. So you can also 'spin it' any way you want. Just because you say DK is a spin-off of Mario doesn't mean that it is. I've given many reasons why this is to the contrary. You're just saying DK is part of Mario...because you think it is. Again, aside from an old arcade game that has nothing in common, from a gameplay or identity standpoint, with any core Mario or Donkey Kong game, they've never been a part of each other's main-line series games. They are strictly separate franchises. Being part of the same universe doesn't mean that one game is a spin-off of another.

Not trying to come off any way or anything, but you're stating things as facts that simply aren't.

I think there's a slight confusion between having a shared universe and being a spinoff.

Batman is not a spinoff from Superman, despite co-existing in the same universe, because he, his stories and characters were all created independently from the Superman series. Batman didn't originate in a Superman story and then went off to do his own thing, he was created for the Batman series and was mostly unconnected with Superman until later on when they established they were in the same universe.

In contrast, Donkey Kong and Mario were both created for the same game with Mario being the protagonist. Then, after a sequel together, Mario branched off to do his own thing while DK's games went on without Mario. The two do converge quite a bit in the spinoff titles and such, but they also have a number of references in their own games to each other as well. It's because of this that the perception of DK being a branch of the Mario series (though technically it is the Mario series that is the spinoff) persists.

 

[Mccdbz5]

Didn’t Japan want K Rool in the game though? Plus DK was a franchise that over took Japan’s gaming sales with a port in May of 2018. There obviously was and is tons of love for the DK series coming from Japan, so it’s not like DK is this western only popular series. Also the entire 2000s line up of DK games were developed either by Nintendo or Namco, so clearly there was Japanese influence to not make it solely a western thing after the arcade.

Exactly, but some people here like to ignore these facts it seems. Donkey Kong is still a popular franchise in Japan. I would venture to say it's more popular here in North America and Europe, but still very popular. I think Japan wanted King K. Rool just as much as we did. So the whole "cultural preference" thing is a moot point. I just think Sakurai personally doesn't have much interest in the franchise, like he does in Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus.

Umm.... Those games were considered more than decent by many. Some consider DKCTF to be the greatest 2D platformer ever, and other than Rayman, DK is the only one who is truly advancing the 2D platformer genre.

The “illusion” that DK was a major franchise came from the fact that DK as a franchise is massively successful. I mean, DKCR was able to outsell the entire Metroid Prime Trilogy of games. DK was even said to have essentially taken over and become the mascot face of the Super Nintendo when the Country Trilogy first released.

Honestly just look up The Geek Critique as he explains how DK was a massive franchise going into the 2000s, but Nintendo lost Rare and sort of just killed DK off because of it. Then Retro took on the franchise and made more money than any of their previous projects had earned them.

Well said. I appreciate you mentioning The Geek Critique. He goes into great detail about this subject. That's why blaming Donkey Kong for "only having failed spinoffs and two decent platforming games" is absolutely ridiculous. It's not Donkey Kong's fault that Nintendo has acted like they've wanted nothing to do with the franchise ever since the Rare buyout, and hasn't been able to handle it whatsoever until Retro took over, and asked them to make another game like the old ones. As I said before, the interest in the series is ABSOLUTELY there. I remember when the port of Tropical Freeze was announced, all the comments I saw on platforms like Facebook from casual gamers was that of optimism and excitement. If a third Donkey Kong Country game is being developed on the Switch, I guarantee it will sell well.

Also, Yoshi is different in the fact that it’s characters are all just baby versions of the main Mario cast, or just unused Mario enemies with the occasional original boss. Yoshi doesn’t need any more characters outside of maybe Kamek as all of Yoshi’s core cast is there with the Mario series. In comparison, DK and Wario have fully original casts that almost or never cross into the Mario universe.

Yoshi certainly fits more into the spin-off category for me, as they use the same characters, enemies, etc. I still would love to see the series get a little bit more love too. Not much more, as I don't feel like it's necessary, but maybe a character like Kamek would be awesome!

FE is still relatively small especially in comparison to DK. To put it into perspective, the sales wikis rank Fire Emblem in the ten thousands, DK gets ranked within the millions. Even FE’s best sellers cannot outsell DK at his lowest. This is why Mccdbz5 finds the representation unbalanced between the two.

I noticed that as well haha. The way each series is tracked illustrates the difference. Even if Donkey Kong was a spin-off franchise like these people on here are saying it is, you could STILL make the argument that the DK series deserves just as much content as that series has, or more. And again, even with DK being "irrelevant for the last decade" like people here are claiming, it STILL blows franchises like Fire Emblem out of the water. So I truly don't understand what the argument is for wanting just a little bit more DK content.

Ha, Mccdbz5 , I like that train of thought you've got going there. I agree about Isaac--I don't give a heck about him really, but character from a beloved GBA RPG series that's been ignored since 2009 and still has tons of fans? Sounds pretty deserving to me. People like to assume we're biased, but nah. We're just judging the "worthiness" of a character based on differing metrics. I'm honestly a little impressed that they managed to add so many characters without including Dixie Kong--now that's the stretch.

I feel the same way. I'm surprised characters like Simon and Richter, who based on everyone's metric for "relevance" here, were able to make it in over Dixie Kong, who is both popular and relevant. That's why the excuses against this are getting tired. If Dixie Kong was part of Kid Icarus for example, she would've been a playable character by now.

I think there's a slight confusion between having a shared universe and being a spinoff.

Batman is not a spinoff from Superman, despite co-existing in the same universe, because he, his stories and characters were all created independently from the Superman series. Batman didn't originate in a Superman story and then went off to do his own thing, he was created for the Batman series and was mostly unconnected with Superman until later on when they established they were in the same universe.

In contrast, Donkey Kong and Mario were both created for the same game with Mario being the protagonist. Then, after a sequel together, Mario branched off to do his own thing while DK's games went on without Mario. The two do converge quite a bit in the spinoff titles and such, but they also have a number of references in their own games to each other as well. It's because of this that the perception of DK being a branch of the Mario series (though technically it is the Mario series that is the spinoff) persists.

Spot on. And that's a great point at the end. Who's to say that Mario isn't a spin-off of Donkey Kong based on some of these people's arguments? Especially when you consider how the Donkey Kong series rivaled Mario's as the flagship of Nintendo with the success of the Country series at one point in time. The only point I've been trying to make is that regardless of that game, assuming Nintendo still went on to be successful. I think both of those franchises still would've come to fruition. I don't believe that game had any influence in shaping those franchises into what they would eventually become. Both franchises went on to be completely different games.

 

[Quillion]

Spot on. And that's a great point at the end. Who's to say that Mario isn't a spin-off of Donkey Kong based on some of these people's arguments? Especially when you consider how the Donkey Kong series rivaled Mario's as the flagship of Nintendo with the success of the Country series at one point in time. The only point I've been trying to make is that regardless of that game, assuming Nintendo still went on to be successful. I think both of those franchises still would've come to fruition. I don't believe that game had any influence in shaping those franchises into what they would eventually become. Both franchises went on to be completely different games.

If we're talking about an alternate universe where the Donkey Kong arcade trilogy never existed, Mario debuted with Mario Bros., and DK debuted with DKC, then I'd say the series would at least be popular, but go the way of Plok. DK's presence as a part of the extended Mario universe has done such a significant role in keeping the flame alive, that if you take it away, DK becomes "just another platformer". Even Yoshi and Wario would suffer that same fate if they were developed as their own IPs with no connection to Mario (as in taking out things like Goombas, Koopas, and giving them their own collectibles among other things).

Donkey Kong is a Mario game; the FIRST Mario game. No amount of "modern Super Mario is so different from that game" will convince me otherwise. Donkey Kong in Mario spinoffs isn't just a Link situation where it's a one-off deal, Donkey Kong is part of the extended Mario universe. It has BOTH value as its own entity and as part of Mario; you cannot separate the two to make "Mario with a gorilla" or "just another platformer with a jungle theme". Even before Donkey Kong Country, Super Mario Kart referenced the Donkey Kong arcade trilogy by having DK Jr.

I just can't imagine the Donkey Kong franchise as anything other than a distinct side of the Mario universe. This is why I'm sure Nintendo as a whole is happy to farm out the franchise to other developers rather than develop it in-house and load the franchise with core installments and spinoffs the way they do with Mario. And I'm just fine with that.

 

[chipndip]

- 0 items

- A ****ing banana peel

I forgot banana peels are a staple of the F-Zero franchise. My bad.

I think some people just need to accept that Donkey Kong is little more than a subset of the Mario franchise at this point. One that has quite a bit of its own identity, but hey, even the Wario series has its own identity, and while Wario is the only necessary Wario character, they ignore anything not from WarioWare. I'd even say Yoshi has its own identity, but no other Yoshi characters are necessary.

TBF to Yoshi: The significant characters worth putting in a Smash game for Yoshi...are other Yoshis. Outside of adding everyone's favorite colors (why do we have purple if we don't have black or white?), there's no need to add anything else, anyway. Everything else is a baby form of characters that are already there (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Wario, and Bowser). Maybe Poochy can become an assist trophy and dig up and retrieve items...but that's about it.

 

[Captain Shades]

If we're talking about an alternate universe where the Donkey Kong arcade trilogy never existed, Mario debuted with Mario Bros., and DK debuted with DKC, then I'd say the series would at least be popular, but go the way of Plok. DK's presence as a part of the extended Mario universe has done such a significant role in keeping the flame alive, that if you take it away, DK becomes "just another platformer". Even Yoshi and Wario would suffer that same fate if they were developed as their own IPs with no connection to Mario (as in taking out things like Goombas, Koopas, and giving them their own collectibles among other things).

Honestly, I don’t really think Mario has helped the DK franchise for the most part. DK lived through Mario for a few years as his series was finding ground again after the Rare buyout, but DK was easily able to form his own identity apart from Mario. Most probably don’t even know DK from the Mario series, but rather just know him from the arcade cabinet based on his name, which for everyone’s information, had Mario called Jump Man, so it wasn’t like Mario’s name was plastered on to sell. Actually, most DK games don’t even feature Mario as Mario or even the character himself, with 3 having Stanley as the protagonist.

DK’s claim to fame was really how it pushed the limits of the SNES, not that he connected to Mario. Here, just take a look.

Here is the title screen of Super Mario World

Now here’s Donkey Kong Country

The Country series rose to fame due to its graphics pushing at the time as well as the superb gameplay. DK has this somewhat realistic artsyle that really wasn’t used before, and it easily attracted the masses and played a big part in the Nintendo and Sega war.

DKC was a legendary franchise, so it probably could have lived without Mario, which was essentially what it was doing as Mario wouldn’t even touch DKC until the GameCube era, preferring to use DK Jr. instead of Diddy.

Not to mention the fact that the reason we have the art style of the Yoshi’s series is due to DK being as massive as it was. Miyamoto was pretty jealous and wanted to make a game that rivaled the Kong’s but with an art style opposite to DK’s realistic design. (A bit of rebellion)

Another key point is that Diddy alone was popular enough to sell a kart racing series that is still remembered to this day.


Ultimately, I really don’t mind DK being part of the Mario Universe, but I truly believe that DK could work without Mario. I don’t think DK really gains that much from being a part of Mario in the first place since usually the only representative is him with Diddy occasionally, so it’s not like Mario really shows DK’s cast. (Only exceptions being Namco developed like Mario Super Sluggers) For the most part, Mario kind of just makes DK look like a jack @$$, especially in the 2000s after Rare left, where DK’s shtick was stupid gorilla. I guess what I’m saying is, DK really doesn’t need Mario to boost his franchise, if Diddy Kong Racing and the SNES take over are anything to go by, he was popular already due to his own worth. All DK really needs is competent directors like Rare or Retro to truly make him shine.

I think there's a slight confusion between having a shared universe and being a spinoff.

Batman is not a spinoff from Superman, despite co-existing in the same universe, because he, his stories and characters were all created independently from the Superman series. Batman didn't originate in a Superman story and then went off to do his own thing, he was created for the Batman series and was mostly unconnected with Superman until later on when they established they were in the same universe.

In contrast, Donkey Kong and Mario were both created for the same game with Mario being the protagonist. Then, after a sequel together, Mario branched off to do his own thing while DK's games went on without Mario. The two do converge quite a bit in the spinoff titles and such, but they also have a number of references in their own games to each other as well. It's because of this that the perception of DK being a branch of the Mario series (though technically it is the Mario series that is the spinoff) persists.

To this I say DK is more of a Teen Titans sort of deal. Obviously Teen Titans uses Robin amongst many other side kicks, but TT has become so big that it is essentially its own thing at this point. Spin-offs can become their own franchise, I mean our next Smash character is literally from a Megami Tensei spin-off. Yes, Joker is from a spin-off, just let that sink in. So, why can’t DK be considered his own series?

Well said. I appreciate you mentioning The Geek Critique. He goes into great detail about this subject. That's why blaming Donkey Kong for "only having failed spinoffs and two decent platforming games" is absolutely ridiculous. It's not Donkey Kong's fault that Nintendo has acted like they've wanted nothing to do with the franchise ever since the Rare buyout, and hasn't been able to handle it whatsoever until Retro took over, and asked them to make another game like the old ones. As I said before, the interest in the series is ABSOLUTELY there. I remember when the port of Tropical Freeze was announced, all the comments I saw on platforms like Facebook from casual gamers was that of optimism and excitement. If a third Donkey Kong Country game is being developed on the Switch, I guarantee it will sell well.

Thanks. Honestly, DK is one of only 3 franchises I consider to be pushing 2D platformers forward, with Rayman and Yoshi really helping to breath more fresh air into the genre. TBH, Retro and Good Feel handle Nintendo’s characters better than Nintendo themselves.

I feel the same way. I'm surprised characters like Simon and Richter, who based on everyone's metric for "relevance" here, were able to make it in over Dixie Kong, who is both popular and relevant. That's why the excuses against this are getting tired. If Dixie Kong was part of Kid Icarus for example, she would've been a playable character by now.

To be fair, Simon is a major legacy character to gaming as a whole, and Castlevania and Metroid essentially created a sub-genre together. Plus Castlevania does have a recent anime, so it isn’t completely irrelevant.

I think 3rd parties just work differently, which is why less relevant characters make it in in comparison to Nintendo. Sakurai seems to want timeless all stars over a PlayStation All Stars style grab bag of recent characters that will be forgotten..

Eddie The Mean Old Yeti for Smash

I think you mean Leo Luster

 

[Deleted member]

I highly doubt that the lack of DK in Smash is a result of Sakurai's personal distaste for the series tho

 

[osby]

I feel the same way. I'm surprised characters like Simon and Richter, who based on everyone's metric for "relevance" here, were able to make it in over Dixie Kong, who is both popular and relevant. That's why the excuses against this are getting tired. If Dixie Kong was part of Kid Icarus for example, she would've been a playable character by now..

Like how Hades, Phosphora, Pandora, Magnus and Medusa are all playable characters? I'd love to see Dixie Kong in Smash but this is a ridiculous hyperbole.

Also comparing Simon and Dixie? Simon got in because he's the protagonist of one of the most influential Metroidvanias, his game practically started a genre. Dixie is yet another sidekick for Donkey Kong.

 

[Deleted member]

Like how Hades, Phosphora, Pandora, Magnus and Medusa are all playable characters? I'd love to see Dixie Kong in Smash but this is a ridiculous hyperbole.

Also comparing Simon and Dixie? Simon got in because he's the protagonist of one of the most influential Metroidvanias, his game practically started a genre. Dixie is yet another sidekick for Donkey Kong.

If Dixie was a Kirby character, she most certainly wouldn't be in

 

[Deleted member]

Simon got in because he's the protagonist of one of the most influential Metroidvanias, his game practically started a genre.

Simon is most famous for the Castlevania games that fell into the platformer genre on the NES, characters such as Richter and Alucard are the characters that appear in the Metroidvania side of Castlevania.

Richter is playable in Ultimate though, so your point still stands.