Does Sakurai dislike/not care about the Donkey Kong franchise?

Mushroomguy12

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#82
Nah.
It’s just that Sakurai needs to work with Smash under a deadline denying him from adding as many things as he would like.
Remember that Dixie was planned to be a tag team character alongside Diddy in Brawl.
You know, you think with this deadline they could have had Dixie as the free bonus DLC character. We could have even had another echo like Shadow or the Octolings on top of that using the time and resources that were spent developing a completely unique character like the Plant.

But no we needed another Mario character that wasn’t even remotely important to the series and that literally no one asked for. At least all the other WTF characters were actually representing new series.
 
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D

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#83
You know, you think with this deadline they could have had Dixie as the free bonus DLC character. We could have even had another echo like Shadow or the Octolings on top of that using the time and resources to spent developing a completely unique character like the Plant.

But no we needed another Mario character that wasn’t even remotely important to the series and that literally no one asked for.
You quite obviously don't understand the fact that Piranha Plant is a joke character. He doesn't work under the normal rules of speculation, and shouldn't be taken seriously.
 
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Mushroomguy12

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#84
You quite obviously don't understand the fact that Piranha Plant is a joke character. He doesn't work under the normal rules of speculation, and shouldn't be taken seriously.
I do understand that. That doesn’t mean I have to like his inclusion nonetheless.

And also like I said before, all of the previous joke characters at least represented new series and starred in their own games or were an important part of Nintendo’s history as a whole.
 

Mccdbz5

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#85
Like how Hades, Phosphora, Pandora, Magnus and Medusa are all playable characters? I'd love to see Dixie Kong in Smash but this is a ridiculous hyperbole.
How is that ridiculous? Kid Icarus is a small franchise that has as many playable characters as it does games...if there's no bias there, then I don't know what is. A franchise like F-Zero could easily have three, four characters if that's the case. Kid Icarus as a franchise has sold less than 3 million copies. That's less than Donkey Kong 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble alone. Dixie Kong comes from a historic and incredibly popular franchise that is still popular today. The same can't be said for Kid Icarus. So the fact that Kid Icarus had more playable characters in Smash 4 than DK is insane, at least to me. Plus, she had a relevant appearance. That's why, again, if she came from a franchise like Kid Icarus, something Sakurai has a personal interest in, I feel like she would be a character by now.

Also comparing Simon and Dixie? Simon got in because he's the protagonist of one of the most influential Metroidvanias, his game practically started a genre. Dixie is yet another sidekick for Donkey Kong.
I personally think Simon was a great addition. I absolutely love Castlevania. My point with bringing him up is that people love ignoring this criteria that they create for character additions when it comes to an old third-party character, but we love to apply it when we're trying to explain why a popular and relevant character like Dixie Kong hasn't been included. Especially when with Dixie Kong, she's a Nintendo character. She's so much easier to put in the game, as there's no process of having to coordinate with another company about being able to use the character. She's right there, available for use, and makes total sense, especially with the release AND port of Tropical Freeze. But nope.
 

Zeke The Zekenator

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#86
I do understand that. That doesn’t mean I have to like his inclusion nonetheless.

And also like I said before, all of the previous joke characters at least represented new series and starred in their own games or were an important part of Nintendo’s history as a whole.
Plant is an important part of Nintendo history, he is pretty much one of the few mooks in Mario to appear in pretty much every title.
 

Mushroomguy12

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#87
Plant is an important part of Nintendo history, he is pretty much one of the few mooks in Mario to appear in pretty much every title.
And one of the few that has literally never even been considered important enough to have been playable before.

Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Bomb-omb, Monty Mole, Shy Guy, Boo, Hammer Bro, even the Blooper have all been playable in Party games, Sports games, Kart games, and the like.

Plant is an obstacle. Not a single person on planet Earth has actually had an emotional attachment to this character before or saw him as an individual character in it of itself.
 
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Mushroomguy12

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#90
Ridley hasn’t been playable in anything before Smash either. Same with Dark Samus and Palutena.
And all of them are their own individual characters, with their own backstories and histories and have had major roles in story based games. Plant has none of those things.
 
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Quillion

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#91
I think we're putting too much stock in what Sakurai's preferences are. He's not an all-controlling auteur the way Kojima and Hidetaka Miyazaki are. He has to accept input from both Sora's staff and Nintendo. Hell, we know that Corrin was a request from his staff, not his own preference.

If anyone is at fault here, it's more Nintendo in general for "not treating Donkey Kong right". And even then, I don't know what "treating Donkey Kong right" is. Are DK fans expecting the series to be loaded with core installments? I don't see the series being as special if it were.
 

Mushroomguy12

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#92
So the Goomba, the first enemy you ever come across in a Super Mario game, isn't important.
Goomba's have been playable in Mario Baseball, Super Mario Party, and the first two Paper Mario games. The RPG series literally dedicated to making generic mooks playable passed over the Plant.
 
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Zeke The Zekenator

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#94
And one of the few that has literally never even been considered important enough to have been playable before.

Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Bomb-omb, Monty Mole, Shy Guy, Boo, Hammer Bro, even the Blooper have all been playable in Party games, Sports games, Kart games, and the like.

Plant is an obstacle. Not a single person on planet Earth has actually had an emotional attachment to this character before or saw him as an individual character in it of itself.
So was Chain Chomp, which now is a playable character for Mario Tennis Aces for the Nintendo Switch. There's always a first time for everything.
 

Mushroomguy12

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#95
Like how :ultgreninja::ultincineroar::ultinkling::ultjigglypuff::ultlucario::ultmiifighters::ultgnw::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultcharizard::ultrob::ultvillager: aren't individual characters?
All of them have been playable before, some of them starring characters?

You guys keep harping on each of these individual points as a reason to debunk my argument, when my argument stems from all of these factors combined as a reason Plant was a waste of development time.

Also Pikachu as it exists in the anime is most definitely an individual character (along with most of the Pokemon). Villager had her own movie, again as an individual character.

So was Chain Chomp, which now is a playable character for Mario Tennis Aces for the Nintendo Switch. There's always a first time for everything.
Chain Chomp was partially playable in Mario Oddysey.
And being playable in Mario Tennis Aces is pretty different from being playable in Smash Bros. One is exclusively focused on Mario characters, and the other is meant to be an all star celebration of many different franchises.

I would have been more than fine with the Plant being playable in Mario Tennis Aces.
 
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Zeke The Zekenator

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#96
All of them have been playable before, some of them starring characters?

You guys keep harping on each of these individual points as a reason to debunk my argument, when my argument stems from all of these factors combined as a reason Plant was a waste of development time.

Also Pikachu as it exists in the anime is most definitely an individual character (along with most of the Pokemon). Villager had her own movie, again as an individual character.


Chain Chomp was partially playable in Mario Oddysey.
And being playable in Mario Tennis Aces is pretty different from being playable in Smash Bros. One is exclusively focused on Mario characters, and the other is meant to be an all star celebration of many different franchises.

I would have been more than fine with the Plant being playable in Mario Tennis Aces.
The plant was also partially playable in Odyssey so I dunno why you bring it. Plus dunno why people have this mentality of some characters not fitting, especially since PP is pretty much one of the most well-known mooks Worldwide and I can guarantee you that most people can recognize it easily unlike most of the roster.
 

Mushroomguy12

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#97
The plant was also partially playable in Odyssey so I dunno why you bring it. Plus dunno why people have this mentality of some characters not fitting, especially since PP is pretty much one of the most well-known mooks Worldwide and I can guarantee you that most people can recognize it easily unlike most of the roster.
K, the Fire and Poison varieties were barely playable in Odyssey through some obscure trick that many people didn't even encounter in normal gameplay. Chain Chomp was actually required to solve several puzzles and could move.
I would always throw Cappy into it's mouth and jump on it so I didn't even know that before.
Frogs are also playable and recognized worldwide, you want Frogs for Smash next?

Still doesn't debunk any of my other points, including Mario Tennis being different from Smash Bros.

The Chain Chomp is an Assist Trophy in Smash Bros, a spot that would have also fitted the Plant greatly, while literally half the Assist Trophies could have taken that playable spot and fitted better.
 
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Zeke The Zekenator

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#98
K, the Fire and Poison varieties were barely playable in Odyssey through some obscure trick that many people didn't even encounter in normal gameplay. Chain Chomp was actually required to solve several puzzles and could move.
I would always throw Cappy into it's mouth and jump on it so I didn't even know that before.
Frogs are also playable and recognized worldwide, you want Frogs for Smash next?

Still doesn't debunk any of my other points, including Mario Tennis being different from Smash Bros.

The Chain Chomp is an Assist Trophy in Smash Bros, a spot that would have also fitted the Plant greatly, while literally half the Assist Trophies could have taken that playable spot and fitted better.
The capture mechanic is an obscure trick? I captured a few ones during my gameplay so I dunno about it. You used the plants to help in some puzzles as well, especially the poison one.

You didnt even touched my point that Piranha Plant is more well-known than a good part of the roster, and thats not even mentioning AT where pretty much the only character as known as PP is probably Bomberman.
 

Mushroomguy12

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#99
The capture mechanic is an obscure trick? I captured a few ones during my gameplay so I dunno about it. You used the plants to help in some puzzles as well, especially the poison one.
You didnt even touched my point that Piranha Plant is more well-known than a good part of the roster, and thats not even mentioning AT where pretty much the only character as known as PP is probably Bomberman.
Didn't say capture was obscure, I'm saying most of the time a lot of people just killed the plant in other means since throwing your hat vanilla usually doesn't work. And that wasn't the standard Plant, those were special varieties, where the playable Chain Chomp was the vanilla one.
You don't think Waluigi is as well known as a Plant? And what about the Chain Chomp and Thwomp? They're pretty well known, you want them playable too?

And also I did touch your point. Frogs are playable as well, you want a frog to be in Smash Bros now? Being iconic and nothing else is not a singular factor for being in Smash. Steve is well known and yet people hate the idea of him being in. Why don't you just add Fortnite characters, FNAF, Goku, Shrek, Batman, Sans and Mickey Mouse as well? They're all really WELL KNOWN.
 
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JDCabrera

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You don't think Waluigi is as well known as a Plant?
And also I did touch your point. Frogs are playable as well, you want a frog to be in Smash Bros now? Being iconic and nothing else is not a singular factor for being in Smash. Steve is well known and yet people hate the idea of him being in. Why don't you just add Fortnite characters, FNAF, Goku, Shrek, Batman, Sans and Mickey Mouse as well? They're all really WELL KNOWN.
Sans would be cool, not gonna lie.
But Goku, Shrek, Batman and Mickey Mouse can’t happen because they aren’t originated from videogames.

Fortnite and FNaF could happen since they are videogames, but I can’t think of a perfect pick at the moment (maybe in the future I will doh).
 
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You don't think Waluigi is as well known as a Plant? And what about the Chain Chomp and Thwomp? They're pretty well known, you want them playable too?

And also I did touch your point. Frogs are playable as well, you want a frog to be in Smash Bros now? Being iconic and nothing else is not a singular factor for being in Smash. Steve is well known and yet people hate the idea of him being in. Why don't you just add Fortnite characters, FNAF, Goku, Shrek, Batman, Sans and Mickey Mouse as well? They're all really WELL KNOWN.
Waluigi is a meme, and that's it. He's a character that's popular in the west almost exclusively because of the internet, and like most memes his popularity will come to an end eventually.

Undertale, Fortnite and FNAF are just trends, they've died down now, while Minecraft has started to gain popularity again. The rest aren't even video game characters.

Also this forum does not represent the entire Smash fanbase, and even then Steve has his own support thread which is fairly active.
 
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Zeke The Zekenator

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Didn't say capture was obscure, I'm saying most of the time a lot of people just killed the plant in other means since throwing your hat vanilla usually doesn't work. And that wasn't the standard Plant, those were special varieties, where the playable Chain Chomp was the vanilla one.
You don't think Waluigi is as well known as a Plant? And what about the Chain Chomp and Thwomp? They're pretty well known, you want them playable too?

And also I did touch your point. Frogs are playable as well, you want a frog to be in Smash Bros now? Being iconic and nothing else is not a singular factor for being in Smash. Steve is well known and yet people hate the idea of him being in. Why don't you just add Fortnite characters, FNAF, Goku, Shrek, Batman, Sans and Mickey Mouse as well? They're all really WELL KNOWN.
Hmmm, a Mario character that appears in pretty much every title vs a Mario character that appears in select spinoffs. I wonder which one will be more known?

If Sakurai can make movesets for Chain Chomp and Thwomp Im open for it.

The frog argument is silly, you're pretty much using an hyperbole to reject my point. Same using non-videogame characters that people meme, and using games that are popular at the moment that people see as a joke is kinda crappy considering a few have genuine fans.
 
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To this I say DK is more of a Teen Titans sort of deal. Obviously Teen Titans uses Robin amongst many other side kicks, but TT has become so big that it is essentially its own thing at this point. Spin-offs can become their own franchise, I mean our next Smash character is literally from a Megami Tensei spin-off. Yes, Joker is from a spin-off, just let that sink in. So, why can’t DK be considered his own series?
That's a very good comparison. I apologize if I implied that a spinoff couldn't be its own then since the DK, Wario and Persona series are spinoffs but managed to be their own thing as well. When I speak of the perception of DK being tied to Mario due to its origins, I'm not in anyway trying to take away the merits the series has earned as its own.
 

Mushroomguy12

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Hmmm, a Mario character that appears in pretty much every title vs a Mario character that appears in select spinoffs. I wonder which one will be more known?

If Sakurai can make movesets for Chain Chomp and Thwomp Im open for it.

The frog argument is silly, you're pretty much using an hyperbole to reject my point. Same using non-videogame characters that people meme, and using games that are popular at the moment that people see as a joke is kinda crappy considering a few have genuine fans.
K, how about Toad and Goomba? They appear in pretty much every title and are far more iconic than the Plant. Why aren’t they in instead?
That too hyperbolic for you?

And Waluigi is still an individual character in it of himself. I don’t even care that much for his inclusion, but if I knew we were getting another Mario character, I would have picked him in a heartbeat.


Which gets down to my ORIGINAL reason I criticized the Plant, we DIDN’T need another Mario character in general.
 
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Quillion

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K, how about Toad and Goomba? They appear in pretty much every title and are far more iconic and Plant? Why aren’t they in instead?
That too hyperbolic for you?

And Waluigi is still an individual character in it of himself. I don’t even care that much for his inclusion, but if I knew we were getting another Mario character, I would have picked him in a heartbeat.


Which gets down to my ORIGINAL reason I criticized the Plant, we DIDN’T need another Mario character in general.
I'd say we at least need Captain Toad on his presence as a main series character.

But who cares if we don't "need" characters. We don't need initial obscurities like MOTHER and F-Zero in Smash, yet look where we are now.
 

Mushroomguy12

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I'd say we at least need Captain Toad on his presence as a main series character.

But who cares if we don't "need" characters. We don't need initial obscurities like MOTHER and F-Zero in Smash, yet look where we are now.
MOTHER and F-Zero are here because they were there from the beginning and were far bigger and more active during the days of 64 and Melee. If the first Smash came out today they most likely not be in.

And the point isn’t that we don’t “need” them, my initial response was to someone saying we had limited development time to put everything in, so if there’s such a limit, some characters should have taken priority over joke ones.
 
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Quillion

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Back on topic, I swear that some people get so cut up over quantity of representation rather than quality. Seriously, if DK was the franchise that generated a whole bunch of echoes and semiechoes based on ONE character (imagine DK's body type being used for Funky, Kiddy, Chunky, and Lanky), DK fanboys would be all over it.

Once again, I'm fine with the way Nintendo as a whole, not just Smash, treats the DK series. The franchise would be far less special if they prioritized quantity over quality and churned out endless DKC games and spinoffs.

Dixie should be playable, though. She's great semiecho material: give her Bubblegum Popgun, replace tail attacks with hair attacks, and give her a variant of DK's Up B.

I'm probably going to make a topic about quantity of representation sometime later.
 

Arthur97

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You know, you think with this deadline they could have had Dixie as the free bonus DLC character. We could have even had another echo like Shadow or the Octolings on top of that using the time and resources that were spent developing a completely unique character like the Plant.

But no we needed another Mario character that wasn’t even remotely important to the series and that literally no one asked for. At least all the other WTF characters were actually representing new series.
To be fair, we have no proof that Dixie isn't in the mix.
 
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You know, you think with this deadline they could have had Dixie as the free bonus DLC character. We could have even had another echo like Shadow or the Octolings on top of that using the time and resources that were spent developing a completely unique character like the Plant.

But no we needed another Mario character that wasn’t even remotely important to the series and that literally no one asked for. At least all the other WTF characters were actually representing new series.
I'm sorry but you're relying on false hope if you think we're gonna get any free characters considering how small stuff like Mii costumes cost money to purchase plus we don't know if we're getting anything after the five dlc characters yet.

Also I still believe she has to be a least a semi clone to be property represented especially since Diddy still has a tail attack which would have to be completely reanimated to work for her right.
 

Mushroomguy12

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I'm sorry but you're relying on false hope if you think we're gonna get any free characters considering how small stuff like Mii costumes cost money to purchase plus we don't know if we're getting anything after the five dlc characters yet.

Also I still believe she has to be a least a semi clone to be property represented especially since Diddy still has a tail attack which would have to be completely reanimated to work for her right.
We already had a free bonus character? That's what I was referring to.

And I don't need Dixie to be free or an echo. I would be happy for her to get a spot in any capacity, whether she's part of the Fighter's Pass or not.
 
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We already had a free bonus character? That's what I was referring to.
Piranha Plant was probably only a bonus cause they were meant to be part of the initial roster most likely, that's might be reason they're the only dlc character with a guidance as well. I don't expect a second character with this distinction.
 
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I am glad they did better by DKC for Ultimate. No new stages is explained by their only being 4 new ones in Ultimate. Hopefully Smash 6 has a new DK level not based on a jungle.
I still find Ice Cave Chant to be a weird choice for a song when every single DK stage (besides 75m) is some variation of Jungle.
 

Xelrog

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I still find Ice Cave Chant to be a weird choice for a song when every single DK stage (besides 75m) is some variation of Jungle.
I'm happy they added it, though. To be honest the music of the first two Country games is the only thing that really endears me to the series (at least as far as what could still be brought to Smash).
 
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You know, you think with this deadline they could have had Dixie as the free bonus DLC character. We could have even had another echo like Shadow or the Octolings on top of that using the time and resources that were spent developing a completely unique character like the Plant.

But no we needed another Mario character that wasn’t even remotely important to the series and that literally no one asked for. At least all the other WTF characters were actually representing new series.
I think Piranha Plant was added for 3 reasons

Obviously 1) He was a surprise and a joke character to fill the quota for this Smash.

2) Interesting move set - It’s obvious that Sakurai likes to create weird and unusual fighters, so Piranha Plant was a prime candidate to make a fully original move set off of.

3) Importance to Smash - most forget that a big feature of PP is the Final Smash, which was a direct call back to the first boss of Subspace. PP allowed for more Smash history to be included which is important in a compilation/ best hits title like Ultimate.

You know, you think with this deadline they could have had Dixie as the free bonus DLC character. We could have even had another echo like Shadow or the Octolings on top of that using the time and resources that were spent developing a completely unique character like the Plant.

But no we needed another Mario character that wasn’t even remotely important to the series and that literally no one asked for. At least all the other WTF characters were actually representing new series.
This is not true, as the first ever joke character was Jiggly Puff, which certainly had little importance to Pokemon overall and didn’t represent any new series.

Goomba's have been playable in Mario Baseball, Super Mario Party, and the first two Paper Mario games. The RPG series literally dedicated to making generic mooks playable passed over the Plant.
You guys forgot to mention Petey Pirhana in this debate, as he would definitely bring up the plant species to be very important as Petey was even playable in Mario Kart at one point. Plus, again, he was the first boss in Smash’s Subspace, so I think that shows that the Pirhanah Plant species is very big within the Mario Universe.

I'd say we at least need Captain Toad on his presence as a main series character.
I can get behind this, also having Waluigi and Paper Mario would be great. Waluigi as it’s Waluigi and he has a place as a main Mario character. I think people over simplify Waluigi’s popularity as just a meme, but as a Nintendo fan who has kept up to date, I can tell you that the past decade has really been an up hill battle for the character as he has made people genuinely like him as the odd ball of the Mario cast. I think there is a genuine attachment to him, as he is strange and sort of indearing in that regard. (I always think back to Mario Golf on 3DS which has an over world with Mario characters standing in place and being boring, but Waluigi is just randomly spinning cause... just cause) Waluigi sorta reminds me of Big the Cat in the fact that they both grew to popularity out of jokes, but at some point, I think people stopped joking and became legit fans of them.

Paper Mario I’d want to be the RPG mascot. I know many want Geno, but honestly I feel Paper Mario has become more of a mascot to rpg Mario titles as a whole than Mario RPG ever did.

Back on topic, I swear that some people get so cut up over quantity of representation rather than quality. Seriously, if DK was the franchise that generated a whole bunch of echoes and semiechoes based on ONE character (imagine DK's body type being used for Funky, Kiddy, Chunky, and Lanky), DK fanboys would be all over it.

Once again, I'm fine with the way Nintendo as a whole, not just Smash, treats the DK series. The franchise would be far less special if they prioritized quantity over quality and churned out endless DKC games and spinoffs.

Dixie should be playable, though. She's great semiecho material: give her Bubblegum Popgun, replace tail attacks with hair attacks, and give her a variant of DK's Up B.

I'm probably going to make a topic about quantity of representation sometime later.
I feel like Quantity and Quality go more hand in hand within Smash than you’re making it out to be. With a platform like Smash, I feel quantity really does booster up the quality of the series represented. As an example, Castlevania is clearly one of the best represented 3rd party series in Smash having 2 characters, a stage with 5-6 iconic beasts, an item, and a fighter like assist, along with 30 remixes and a boss. Now look at Sonic which has one character, 2 stages, 1 remix, 2 assists, and that’s it. Sonic is vastly inferior to Castlevania because the content just isn’t there, whereas Castlevania gets loads of goodies.

Quantity can really affect the quality of a franchises representation in Smash. Not having a lot of material from a franchise can really hurt as that means there is usually less quality in said franchise.

Within this thread, many will probably justifiably claim that DK doesn’t get as much quality care as others due to a lack in quantity. I would say Earthbound is probably more we’ll represented in Smash due to EarthBound having an assist to bring in a fan favorite, at one point having a full on boss enemy, multiple stages that show off the vast locations of the titles (you know, unlike DK’s jungles or Sonic’s multiple Green Hills) and two full protagonist characters as fighters. Sure Ness and Onette would have been nice representation, but let’s be honest, EarthBound having as much as it did (especially in Brawl) really only heightened the quality.
 
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K, how about Toad and Goomba? They appear in pretty much every title and are far more iconic than the Plant. Why aren’t they in instead?
That too hyperbolic for you?

And Waluigi is still an individual character in it of himself. I don’t even care that much for his inclusion, but if I knew we were getting another Mario character, I would have picked him in a heartbeat.


Which gets down to my ORIGINAL reason I criticized the Plant, we DIDN’T need another Mario character in general.
Again, Piranha Plant is a joke character. If he was supposed to be taken seriously we would've gotten someone like Toad or Waluigi.

Also, not needing anymore Mario characters is pretty subjective, what you really should be saying is "I don't want any more Mario characters."
 

Shira907

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Neither does Donkey Kong.

The DK series subsisted on a small handful of failed spinoffs for years and only recently got two--count 'em, two--decent platforming games. I don't know where this illusion that it's a major franchise came from, but it seems be causing some confusion as to why there's not more DK in Smash, and I'm explaining the plain facts as to why this isn't the case. Whether the confused wish to take those facts or remain in denial is up to them. If you're happier thinking your trophy boy DK runs a much bigger operation than he actually does, then by all means.
Please tell me you're joking. There's so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin. Tropical Freeze has sold almost close to 4 million copies alone and Returns has sold well over 8 million copies worldwide. They are both known as being two of some of the best platformers of all time by most and highly regarded for being some of the best well designed levels and gameplay in a modern platformer. Calling them "decent" is a gross understatement and even if you don't like the games, it is an undeniable reality that the levels are very well designed compared to a lot of other modern 2-d platformers. This isn't even taking into account the original trilogy on the super nintendo which all sold incredibly well on the system and were widely popular and known for the games usage of silicon graphics. My point being is that if you honestly believe that the donkey kong franchise isn't a major franchise for Nintendo, you've either been living under a rock or are just plain flat out misinformed. Of course the franchise isn't quite on the same level as say Mario or pokemon but I can definitely say with confidence that its on the same level as Zelda or at the very least very close to it. How ironic though you want to call people who are just calling it like it is "In denial" though. The only one "in denial" here is you.
 
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