Does Sakurai dislike/not care about the Donkey Kong franchise?

[pupNapoleon]

And this is why echoes and semi-echoes alike need to be selected with the same care as "full" characters. Players need to appreciate both their inclusion and the fact that they play similar to their counterparts.

And I'm back to reasons why Tails and Dixie could be echoes or semi.

Maybe people need to realize that having a bunch of characters in Smash isn't a statement of how popular a series is, but more that said series has a diverse cast that is fighter-worthy.

I think that Fire Emblem makes this point moot, no? Thats why 'Blue haired swordsman' is a meme.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

pupNapoleon not to be that guy but it's best not to double post since the mods don't like that, edit your post instead if you're were the last post in a thread.

 

[pupNapoleon]

pupNapoleon not to be that guy but it's best not to double post since the mods don't like that, edit your post instead if you're were the last post in a thread.

Youre correct- It didnt show that I was last on my loading screen >.<

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

To preface what I'm about to say, this isn't coming from a place of hate, but more of frustration. And this is just my personal opinion. Not saying this is by any means how he actually feels. What I feel is just based on my observations over time.

So now that that's out of the way, I wanted to pose the question; does Sakurai dislike/not care for the Donkey Kong franchise? I feel compelled to ask this question to get other perspectives, as I'm interested to see if others have ever felt this way. I'm a huge fan of the Donkey Kong Country franchise. It's my favorite video game franchise along with Super Smash Bros., so I'm obviously biased to the series. But with that said, my reasons for feeling this way are mostly attributed to the amount of content that has been included in each entry of the series. Donkey Kong has never gotten much representation. If you look at each game, the amount of content Donkey Kong has gotten pales in comparison to other franchises with similar popularity, if you look at things such as playable characters, stages, assist trophies, items, etc. I don't really count the content included from the original Donkey Kong arcade game, as I find that to be more of a Mario game than anything, as that game is not associated with the Country franchise, so I'll be leaving that content out (and even with that content, there still isn't much).

Melee - One playable character, three stages (two new, one from 64), one item.

Brawl - Two playable characters, two stages (one new, one from Melee), zero assist trophies, zero items.

Smash 4 Wii U - Two playable characters, two stages (one new, one from 64), zero assist trophies, zero items.

Ultimate - Three playable characters, three stages (none new), one assist trophy, zero items.

This is just a basic breakdown I made to better illustrate the lack of content Donkey Kong has had over the years. Donkey Kong is Nintendo's fourth best selling franchise (not including the Wii Fit series) behind Mario, Pokémon, and Zelda. When you look at the content Donkey Kong has received compared to these franchises, it doesn't even compare. Not to mention that smaller franchises such as Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus seem to get much more representation. The thing I find even more egregious about this is that even if you look at Ultimate with King K. Rool's inclusion, let's be honest; he was only added due to his immense popularity from the ballot. If not for the ballot, I don't think he would've been added even still, which means we still wouldn't have gotten any new Donkey Kong characters, even though Dixie Kong could've easily been added because of her inclusion in Tropical Freeze. And there are many other examples of lack of content outside of what I've listed (for example, only two music tracks from Tropical Freeze, both of which were already included in Smash 4). I say all this to say that I truly feel Sakurai either dislikes or has very little interest in the franchise, and it's frustrating as a fan. It's frustrating that such a big franchise is treated like such an irrelevant one. It's frustrating that with every entry in the series, we're expecting a new Fire Emblem character, but we're never realistically expecting a Donkey Kong character when one franchise is oversaturated and the other is almost entirely neglected. It's frustrating knowing that a very deserving character had to wait five games to get in and needed to help of a poll just to even be considered in the first place. Hell, I even thought it was crazy that it took Diddy Kong until Brawl to get in, as I felt he should've been a character in Melee, or at least should've at least been considered, which to my knowledge, he was never considered to be a character in Melee. And even in Brawl, I think it was originally planned that him and Dixie Kong would be a team character like Ice Climbers, as if Diddy Kong wasn't important enough to be a stand alone character.

To be clear, this isn't me calling for a boycott on Fire Emblem characters or anything like that. I just feel that the Donkey Kong franchise doesn't get the representation it deserves. It's just the lack of characters, the lack of stages and variety in them (every Donkey Kong stage is just a jungle...), etc. It even took until Ultimate for music tracks other than Jungle Hijinx being remixed like seven times to be included. It's just severely disappointing for me because I feel like there's so much great material they could take from the Country franchise, as it's a franchise that has so much to offer. I don't know if it's because the Country franchise is more popular in the West and has always been developed by foreign studios, and so maybe there's a lack of interest or familiarity there. Who knows. But any who, I didn't write this to rant or make anyone upset. I just wanted to open up the conversation, as I feel like it's an interesting one to have, given Donkey Kong's popularity compared to the amount of content included in the series.

While the Donkey Kong franchise is in the best shape it's been since the Rareware era thanks to Retro Studios, Others here including myself believe that the "Rare Buyout" was the worst thing to ever happen to the franchise, Donkey Kong is iconic and still a big name IP, But I feel like the franchise lost a lot of ground sales, branding and legacy wise during the Gamecube era and majority of the Wii era that a whole generation grew up viewing DK as nothing more than a "Mario Character" in spinoffs games and that's why the franchise is constantly overshadowed by Mario these days and never really gets the respect it deserves.

The future looked bright for DK when we were entering the Gamecube era back in 2001, Donkey Kong Racing was on the horizon and a sequel to Donkey Kong 64 was likely in the works, After the buyout Nintendo had no idea what to to do with the franchise and chained it with unsuccessful gimmicky titles/spinoffs (Donkey Konga and Jungle Beat) for nearly a decade until 2010 When Retro Studios was able to revive the IP with their own successful take on the Country series.

That's why the "Buyout" to this day still pisses me off, Not only because Nintendo lost the rights to all of Rare's IP's like Banjo-Kazooie, But also how little consideration they had for the Donkey Kong franchise when they decided to pass on locking up the studio that's responsible for reviving and making it the powerhouse it was at the time during the mid to late 90's and giving it it's identity that it has to this day.

If Rare was still under Nintendo, I'm willing to bet that not only would have Donkey Kong had gotten a steady stream of quality mainline games and spinoffs, But the franchise would have been taken more seriously and have more Smash content.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

While the Donkey Kong franchise is in the best shape it's been since the Rareware era thanks to Retro Studios, Others here including myself believe that the "Rare Buyout" was the worst thing to ever happen to the franchise, Donkey Kong is iconic and still a big name IP, But I feel like the franchise lost a lot of ground sales, branding and legacy wise during the Gamecube era and majority of the Wii era that a whole generation grew up viewing DK as nothing more than a "Mario Character" in spinoffs games and that's why the franchise is constantly overshadowed by Mario these days and never really gets the respect it deserves.

The future looked bright for DK when we were entering the Gamecube era back in 2001, Donkey Kong Racing was on the horizon and a sequel to Donkey Kong 64 was likely in the works, After the buyout Nintendo had no idea what to to do with the franchise and chained it with unsuccessful gimmicky titles/spinoffs (Donkey Konga and Jungle Beat) for nearly a decade until 2010 When Retro Studios was able to revive the IP with their own successful take on the Country series.

That's why the "Buyout" to this day still pisses me off, Not only because Nintendo lost the rights to all of Rare's IP's like Banjo-Kazooie, But also how little consideration they had for the Donkey Kong franchise when they decided to pass on locking up the studio that's responsible for reviving and making it the powerhouse it was at the time during the mid to late 90's and giving it it's identity that it has to this day.

If Rare was still under Nintendo, I'm willing to bet that not only would have Donkey Kong had gotten a steady stream of quality mainline games and spinoffs, But the franchise would have been taken more seriously and have more Smash content.

I think the DKC series would have surpassed the Zelda series in sales had Rare stayed with Nintendo all these years after the buyout would have happen.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

I think the DKC series would have surpassed the Zelda series in sales had Rare stayed with Nintendo all these years after the buyout would have happen.

I can believe that, Also If you look at all of Nintendo's Top 5 "Core Franchises" sales wise, Mario and Zelda have internal teams at Nintendo EAD, Pokemon has Game Freak and Kirby has HAL Laboratory, Donkey Kong used to have Rareware ,But is the only one that doesn't have a dedicated studio anymore and yet has still managed to rank number 4 this entire time.

Nintendo's Top Selling "Core" Franchises

1.Mario
2.Pokemon
3.Zelda
4.Donkey Kong
5.Kirby

Nothing will ever touch Mario and Pokemon as those franchises are absolute powerhouses and are Nintendo's 1-2 Punch, But you can certainly make a case that Donkey Kong could have overtaken Zelda if it weren't for the buyout.

 

[Deleted member]

>We got every DK stage back except the Jungle Beat one (not a huge loss) and the Returns level due to Stage Morphing.

>We got many wonderful remixes.

>We finally got K.Rool.

>A part of WoL is literally a wonderful recreation of the first map in DKC1.

>We got a lot of spirits.

>We got the Dixie Kong Mii hat which may include the rest of the suit as DLC.

>K.Rool has been featured in most of the marketing.

>Sakurai and Nintendo were pleased and grateful about the letter made by K.Rool supporters.

I don't see any hate towards Donkey Kong in this game.

 

[Quillion]

If Rare was still under Nintendo, I'm willing to bet that not only would have Donkey Kong had gotten a steady stream of quality mainline games and spinoffs, But the franchise would have been taken more seriously and have more Smash content.

I mostly agree with the rest of your post, but I'm not sure how "steady" that stream would be. The franchise was already fizzling out by the time DKC3 hit, and I don't imagine that continuing down DK64's road would have been healthy for the series either.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I mostly agree with the rest of your post, but I'm not sure how "steady" that stream would be. The franchise was already fizzling out by the time DKC3 hit, and I don't imagine that continuing down DK64's road would have been healthy for the series either.

I know it is an unpopular opinion, but I think DK64 was the most fun Donkey Kong home console game (and was brilliantly paired amongst Diddy Kong Racing).

 

[Captain Shades]

Rare wouldn’t have been able to really keep the franchise a float. They were struggling to move over to next gen hardware and had a multitude of in house issues, which is probably why they died with Microsoft. This may have been the reason Nintendo didn’t buy out Rare as they knew they were a sinking ship. Honestly, while I hate how Nintendo treated DK, I will say that they were unfairly backed into a corner as even if they did buy Rare, the franchise probably would have still plummeted, just to a lesser degree. There really is no decision that would have saved Rare or by extension DK, Rare was at a burn out and financial instability to really make the same quality DK games, and Nintendo was hands off for most of the franchises life to understand how to. Retro was really the best decision as they got the franchise more than Nintendo and didn’t have the same internal problems as Rare.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Rare wouldn’t have been able to really keep the franchise a float. They were struggling to move over to next gen hardware and had a multitude of in house issues, which is probably why they died with Microsoft. This may have been the reason Nintendo didn’t buy out Rare as they knew they were a sinking ship. Honestly, while I hate how Nintendo treated DK, I will say that they were unfairly backed into a corner as even if they did buy Rare, the franchise probably would have still plummeted, just to a lesser degree. There really is no decision that would have saved Rare or by extension DK, Rare was at a burn out and financial instability to really make the same quality DK games, and Nintendo was hands off for most of the franchises life to understand how to. Retro was really the best decision as they got the franchise more than Nintendo and didn’t have the same internal problems as Rare.

Rare as a studio? Yes they wouldn't survive that much longer on Nintendo. At least their general ideas and audience might be more appriciated on Nintendo instead of Microsoft. That's almost a given. And even if they wouldn't survive, there would've been quality Donkey Kong games and they might just create a dedicated, passionate Donkey Kong development team out of it that could work for Nintendo themselves.

 

[Captain Shades]

Rare as a studio? Yes they wouldn't survive that much longer on Nintendo. At least their general ideas and audience might be more appriciated on Nintendo instead of Microsoft. That's almost a given. And even if they wouldn't survive, there would've been quality Donkey Kong games and they might just create a dedicated, passionate Donkey Kong development team out of it that could work for Nintendo themselves.

While I like your enthusiasm, I don’t see this being the case. Already one huge issue with Rare is the language barrier between the British company and the Japanese company. All DK games were developed by 3rd party Japanese publishers after Rare left, so the case would likely be the same. Add in that Nintendo Japan seemed to want little to do with Rare outside of the business aspect of they make games and I doubt Rare would have a huge place under Nintendo.

There is a bright side though, as I honestly believe in this hypothetical that Rare would probably regain some ground and influence, but I believe it will be working under Retro. If anything, a Rare buyout would have only allowed Retro access to many of the original DK’s staff, which in turn would probably have let them start out with things like Dixie and K Rool, instead of slowly building up to it.

If anything, Rare may become a partner/part of Retro that can aid in the development of many of Nintendo’s Western titles rather than a solo DK developer. Retro has been named Rare’s replacement before, so I could honestly see Rare just becoming the second team at Retro, giving them more staff to develop games in a way that doesn’t take 4 years, or have more titles to pad out the western studio’s library, but these are just my thoughts.

 

[Quillion]

Remember, much of Rare's staff left circa the MS buyout. They shuffled around until some of them came together to form Playtonic.

Yeah, I know that Yooka-Laylee was mediocre in the face of Mario Odyssey and Hat in Time, but I'd like to see them collab with Retro for the final DKCR game. The Kremlings need to make their comeback in that game, and then the franchise can rest again.

 

[Teeb147]

We could use more characters from a lot of the series that arent mario, fire emblem or pokemon.

Kirby hasnt had new characters since brawl :/

 

[Xelrog]

Kirby hasnt had new characters since brawl :/

Kirby doesn't have any more iconic characters.

No, Bandana Dee isn't iconic.

 

[osby]

Kirby doesn't have any more iconic characters.

No, Bandana Dee isn't iconic.

A character doesn't need to be iconic in order to make it into Smash.

That being said, I don't think Kirby desperately needs another character. Bandana Dee would be great, but I'm not exactly sold on him being essential for Kirby in Smash.

 

[Teeb147]

Kirby doesn't have any more iconic characters.

No, Bandana Dee isn't iconic.

I disagree. And see no point in trying to argue with you if you think like that.

 

[BigDamnHero]

No, Bandana Dee isn't iconic.

cancelled.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Kirby doesn't have any more iconic characters.

No, Bandana Dee isn't iconic.

"Black Shadow is the closest thing to a recurring F-Zero villain. Bring him in, bring Porky in"

 

[Xelrog]

"Black Shadow is the closest thing to a recurring F-Zero villain. Bring him in, bring Porky in"

You bet. A villain for every hero, or as close as possible.

 

[Guynamednelson]

You bet. A villain for every hero, or as close as possible.

It's either "characters must be iconic" or "muh villain quota". You can't have both.

 

[Diddy Kong]

While I like your enthusiasm, I don’t see this being the case. Already one huge issue with Rare is the language barrier between the British company and the Japanese company. All DK games were developed by 3rd party Japanese publishers after Rare left, so the case would likely be the same. Add in that Nintendo Japan seemed to want little to do with Rare outside of the business aspect of they make games and I doubt Rare would have a huge place under Nintendo.

There is a bright side though, as I honestly believe in this hypothetical that Rare would probably regain some ground and influence, but I believe it will be working under Retro. If anything, a Rare buyout would have only allowed Retro access to many of the original DK’s staff, which in turn would probably have let them start out with things like Dixie and K Rool, instead of slowly building up to it.

If anything, Rare may become a partner/part of Retro that can aid in the development of many of Nintendo’s Western titles rather than a solo DK developer. Retro has been named Rare’s replacement before, so I could honestly see Rare just becoming the second team at Retro, giving them more staff to develop games in a way that doesn’t take 4 years, or have more titles to pad out the western studio’s library, but these are just my thoughts.

Well yes, but Rare could've fused with Retro earlier then maybe? Am not sure when Retro joined Nintendo honestly. I think Metroid Prime was their very first game, yes? Pretty sure that Rare also would've liked to get their hands on Metroid. Since their experience with Jet Force Gemini would really have come to pass there. But I guess it might've been way too early for Rare to join up with Retro like that. Am sure they would've finished Donkey Kong Racing first, then work with Star Fox Adventures, like they where already doing. But the engine of Star Fox Adventures would really work well for a 3D DKC game honestly. Or a 'DK128' (follow up to DK64), or even a Banjo-Threeie that's not Nuts & Bolts.

There's was a lot of potential for Rare on the GameCube that wasn't realized on XBox...

At the very least, the DKC Returns games might've came out more frequently and with more attention to the old Rare lore.

 

[Teeb147]

You bet. A villain for every hero, or as close as possible.

There's no villain in Wiifit, except if you count calories.

 

[Guynamednelson]

There's no villain in Wiifit, except if you count calories.

We need Ronald McDonald just to shove villians in.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

You bet. A villain for every hero, or as close as possible.

Nah

 

[Captain Shades]

Well yes, but Rare could've fused with Retro earlier then maybe? Am not sure when Retro joined Nintendo honestly. I think Metroid Prime was their very first game, yes? Pretty sure that Rare also would've liked to get their hands on Metroid. Since their experience with Jet Force Gemini would really have come to pass there. But I guess it might've been way too early for Rare to join up with Retro like that. Am sure they would've finished Donkey Kong Racing first, then work with Star Fox Adventures, like they where already doing. But the engine of Star Fox Adventures would really work well for a 3D DKC game honestly. Or a 'DK128' (follow up to DK64), or even a Banjo-Threeie that's not Nuts & Bolts.

Yes Retro started with Prime but was founded as a Nintendo partner in 1998. Rare was bought out in 2002, the same year Prime released, so going off this timeline we can maybe create a somewhat hypothetical timeline of events. Presumably Rare would be bought out as a full time Nintendo developer in 2002. They would probably create the DK Racing game and of course Star Fox Adventures along with Diddy Kong Racing DS now with Banjo and Conker. Assuming Rare goes down in the same year, 2008, with Banjo Nuts and Bolts, than the link up would have to happen around 2008 or earlier. The previous year would have had Retro finish up the Metroid trilogy and move on to DK, so honestly this timeline would create a perfect opportunity for a merger as Retro could call out to Rare for advice on DK. I am also guessing that Rare would have done a little bit for DK, but honestly since they have their own franchises and we’re just handed Star Fox, I could see them taking a break in a similar vein to Retro with Metroid.

In turn this timeline would make Retro a bigger company and give them control over 3 Nintendo franchises (DK, Metroid and Star Fox) in addition to Banjo and Conker.

Again, this is a hypothetical, but a merger/ partnership between Retro and Rare wouldn’t be the worst thing as both operate pretty similarly, so they’d probably get along pretty well.

There's was a lot of potential for Rare on the GameCube that wasn't realized on XBox...

True...True...

At the very least, the DKC Returns games might've came out more frequently and with more attention to the old Rare lore.

I doubt they really would have come out more frequently, which I’d be thankful for as it really makes each one special when they aren’t 1 to 2 years apart. Retro puts a lot of time into games, so I can’t see them going much quicker even with more developers. Most likely the studio will create more titles in general, probably reviving more Nintendo IPs like F-Zero, or working on the Rare originals with them happening in the same development time as DK and releasing between games. Think of a NetherRealm style MK to Injustice 2 year trade off with DK than another series until the Trilogy is complete.

Also, I firmly believe that Retro has paid enough attention to Rare’s lore outside of the obvious K Rool omission. Retro is certainly making DK their own while paying Rare respect. If anything, I kinda feel Retro has cleaned up Rare’s franchise a little.

We may disagree, but outside of a few elements it feels like Retro is really just standardizing the essentials. The main cast is pretty much perfect as the other Kongs just felt like gameplay necessities rather than really memorable characters in the same way Diddy, Dixie, Cranky, and Funky are. In my opinion, just having around 5-6 Kong’s was a smart move and really makes DK feel less bloated.

Characters like Chunky and Kiddy just kinda felt there for the most part, and Lanky is really nothing more than a meme character without the same level of unironic love as someone like Big (This may be due to Sonic being bigger but IDK). Candy also seemed weird and really not that important to have. There were other Kongs, but I lack the names, which really shows their impact. DK, Diddy, Dixie, Cranky, and Funky are basically the best parts of the DK cast, so solely focusing on them was a good decision in my mind.

K Rool is still a must for DKC though as he will always be the most loved antagonist, plus seeing him maybe work with the new baddies like the second in the running Snowmads would be cool. I will also say that if any Kong felt like they should come back, Tiny seems to be the one, weirdly enough. She was one of the few DK characters to survive the Rare buyout and made it as far as K Rool and Dixie. Plus Nintendo even redesigned her, so she kinda has this weird placing for me where maybe she will/ should be the 6th Kong going into the modern era.

 

[UserKev]

Its amazing how close to completion in reps Donkey Kong is in Smash, why don't Sakurai just get it over with? I am the absolutely biggest Cranky Kong advocate and while I admit Dixie has earned her roster space, I believe Cranky should be top priority.

People argue for Funky Kong, I believe Lanky Kong offers more merit and memorability if you want to add an extra DK rep. He fits the bill. Donkey Kong should have 4 unique reps and one semi echo, 5 reps at the most.

 

[KahunaLagoona DX]

Having glanced the thread, I'd like to make my own thoughts on this:

- Sakurai likely grew up on or has a lot of love for mostly the classic Arcade Donkey Kong (Something people seem to want to not consider)

• 75m 'Faithfully' recreated as a stage
• Mario/Donkey Kong rivalry heavily present in Smash 4 - Mario V DK in Rosa trailer (While Bowser is right there) 1st Event Match represents Mario's "nemeses" Bowser/DK to team up against Mario despite Modern DK being more a good guy.

Outside that and perhaps the utter lack of anything else to DKC outside the standard Jungle Level, it's very easy to showcase that Sakurai likes Arcade more than Country, and that has kinda stuck.

Ultimate did give back with major DKC fanservice: K. Rool, Jungle Japes submap. You still see that Arcade roots argument when K. Rool is the 2nd fight on DK's Classic Route and the Mario Bros (as well as being on New Donk City, a literal love letter to Arcade DK) is the Penultimate Fight before Master/Crazy.

I dunno. I grew up on DKC back on the SNES, and I love the games to death, but I find the fandom's over-focus on trying to make DKC this pedigree in Smash is a little too much. Same goes for Metroid. I know not everyone will agree with me on that.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Having glanced the thread, I'd like to make my own thoughts on this:

- Sakurai likely grew up on or has a lot of love for mostly the classic Arcade Donkey Kong (Something people seem to want to not consider)

• 75m 'Faithfully' recreated as a stage
• Mario/Donkey Kong rivalry heavily present in Smash 4 - Mario V DK in Rosa trailer (While Bowser is right there) 1st Event Match represents Mario's "nemeses" Bowser/DK to team up against Mario despite Modern DK being more a good guy.

Outside that and perhaps the utter lack of anything else to DKC outside the standard Jungle Level, it's very easy to showcase that Sakurai likes Arcade more than Country, and that has kinda stuck.

Ultimate did give back with major DKC fanservice: K. Rool, Jungle Japes submap. You still see that Arcade roots argument when K. Rool is the 2nd fight on DK's Classic Route and the Mario Bros (as well as being on New Donk City, a literal love letter to Arcade DK) is the Penultimate Fight before Master/Crazy.

I dunno. I grew up on DKC back on the SNES, and I love the games to death, but I find the fandom's over-focus on trying to make DKC this pedigree in Smash is a little too much. Same goes for Metroid. I know not everyone will agree with me on that.

Most of us will just be happy with Dixie Kong.

 

[UserKev]

• Mario/Donkey Kong rivalry heavily present in Smash 4 - Mario V DK in Rosa trailer (While Bowser is right there) 1st Event Match represents Mario's "nemeses" Bowser/DK to team up against Mario despite Modern DK being more a good guy.

That's Cranky Kong. DK in the Event Match with Bowser is representing Cranky Kong, theoretically the original DK and originally bad. Cranky Kong is more redeemed these days.

 

[KahunaLagoona DX]

That's Cranky Kong. DK in the Event Match with Bowser is representing Cranky Kong, theoretically the original DK and originally bad. Cranky Kong is more redeemed these days.

Just because it's meant to "Represent" Cranky doesn't mean it's not Donkey Kong being used.

 

[UserKev]

Just because it's meant to "Represent" Cranky doesn't mean it's not Donkey Kong being used.

.. Huh? .. Eh. That's basically what I said.