Does Sakurai actually care what we (fans) want?

[Red(SP)]

Maybe it's a sense of entitlement? "Look at how much time I've spent on this game. look at how good I've become at this game. Why won't you only cater to me after I've given you so much of my time, Sakurai?"

So much dedication. Did Sakurai ever ask for it, I wonder? Were you ever the fan Sakurai wanted to please?

Spoiler

NO BECAUSE YOU'RE JUST GIANT NERDS THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT KIND OF GAMES SAKURAI MAKES AND WHY YOUR IDEAS ARE BAD.

Dude, this is all business, not some meaning of righteousness. Play the game.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Oasis/Toise is my favorite person. Of all time.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Oasis on maximum jimmy rustlin' mode.

 

[Oasis_S]

Dude, this is all business, not some meaning of righteousness. Play the game.

If I'm going to waste time being dumb arguing about a game, I may as well be right about it.

Talk to Chu if you want to get into why competitive Smash is bad businessLOLOLOL.

 

[---]

Oasis/Toise is my favorite person. Of all time.

The real question is who is Stronger than the other?

 

[Deleted member 212841]

Great depth and widespread accessability are completely compatible. Just look at Pokemon. For well over 10 years it has been successfully entertaining many casual players of various ages. For just as long, it has been an incredibly deep and competitive game capable of satisfying even the most competitive of appetites. Sakurai doesn't have to sacrifice his target audience to please the smaller competitive community. This has been already proven by many other games and is even seen in the Smash series, itself.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

The real question is who is Stronger than the other?

Unanswerable question. At least, unanswerable until there is a battle to determine the Strongest.

 

[Vkrm]

Competitive play is actually better for sales. Crapcom rakes in the $$$$$ when ever they release a dlc for sf4. So it seems chu is wrong about how removing the AT's was a smart business decision. Nintendo designed the wii for children and the elderly, that's why brawl doesn't put an emphasis on player skill. As of late nintendo has been trying win over the hardcore crowd they've lost recently. I hope sakurai understands this and makes smash 4 a worthy successor to melee.

 

[Shadow Huan]

as a melee player, i'm gonna have to say that smash 4 should be its own animal, as long as it's unique and good i don't see a problem.

brawl had pleanty of good ideas, they just got overshadowed by the odd mechanics decisions that were made

 

[DerfMidWest]

Before this goes any further and irritates the brawl players on this board:
Brawl is not a bad game on its own.
Many melee players are just turned away by the somewhat awkward mechanics and overall more defensive and campy style of the game at competitive level. Melee is also fast, which is pree cool.

Anyway, back to the topic:
I don't want smash4 to be like melee or brawl.
I want it to be its own thing.
Hopefully, since nintendo wants to regain its hardcore audience, the game will cater a bit more the the competitive smash players, but if not, its w/e.
Its unlikely that sakurai really understands competitive smash and will probably not be able to cater to it anyway.

 

[Vkrm]

I don't think brawl is a good game honestly. I hate brawl because it's slow, unfair, and unfun which I guess puts me at odds with everybody on the boards

 

[Ferio_Kun]

I don't think brawl is a good game honestly. I hate brawl because it's slow, unfair, and unfun which I guess puts me at odds with everybody on the boards

Sorry to pop your bubble there but I'm sure even competitive players will agree Melee wasn't perfect in fairness either.

Some characters were just so bad at the highest competitive level they were basically unplayable.

Every Smash has had balance issues which is why I hope the team balancing the game instead of just Sakurai produces better results then the previous installments.

 

[Vkrm]

When I said brawl was unfair I should've listed what I meant. Im talking about stuff like tripping, non tumble DI, planking, sheiks ftilt loop on fox, stuff like that. Wasnt even thinking about the balance. Now that is on my mind though, I honestly think ssbm is the most balanced. Even if melee was more broken than brawl, (its not) would defend it just because of much fun it is. Brawl does not have that going for it.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Vkrm, thats a little uncalled for.
Yea, I prefer melee, but some people like brawl better, and on its own, its a decent game.
I just, personally, don't feel that it lived up to melee.
Obviously, brawl has some problems. Melee has quite a few problems as well.

I'm trying to keep this topic from being a brawl vs melee topic... But it seems to keep coming back to that.

That argument is irrelevant, melee people play the game they enjoy the most.
Each game has its own merrit to its respective community, so we shouldn't go around attacking each other's games.
I don't like brawl, so I don't play it.
But I don't feel like attacking the game is the way to communicate.

Now, lets get back to the topic.

 

[Ove]

I think Nintendo has made an obvious change of direction when it comes to choosing their target audience. Lately, we have seen games where Nintendo tries to implement both hardcore and casual aspects into their games in order to satisfy all kind of gamers.

Skyward Sword, Mario Galaxy, New Super Mario Bros. etc. include help videos and other mechanics to help the less dedicated players, enabling everyone to successfully finish the games. However, we are also given great controls which we are encouraged to master (see the "pro videos") as well as sidequests and collecting.

Based on all the information we have been given about the upcoming console, Nintendo will continue with this formula and therefore, I think Smash 4 will be a game that is supposed to be compelling for both hardcore as well as casual players.

 

[Vkrm]

I've always disagreed with the idea that both games differ and people play the one that suits them.It's my opinion that Melee already succeeded in the ways that smash was supposed to and that melee is superior to brawl in every way. Every change implemented in brawl makes it a difficult game to handle. I agree about moving the discussion in a different direction. It's kind of my fault that it started to lean toward brawl vs melee and for that I apologize.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Galaxy and NSMB controls are the worst aspects about them though. It's more limited and less analog than in either Mario 64 or Sunshine. The level design got better, but the gameplay got a lot worse in the newer Mario games, and games in general. Everything seems to be this big homogenized mess where all you need to make is a game that appeals and sells. It doesn't have to have intuitive controls or lasting appeal or anything that makes a game a game, it just has to sell out of the gate.

 

[Oasis_S]

I agree about moving the discussion in a different direction. It's kind of my fault that it started to lean toward brawl vs melee and for that I apologize.

Hey.

What's going on guys.

 

[Red(SP)]

If I'm going to waste time being dumb arguing about a game, I may as well be right about it.

Talk to Chu if you want to get into why competitive Smash is bad businessLOLOLOL.

>Wasting time being dumb about the purpose of said game.
>Being right about it while being supposively stupid for arguing about something you have passion for.
>The mentioning of the defense of competitive Smash and SmashChu.

K.

 

[El Duderino]

Because from what i understand of what you are saying, it requires you to sheild and begin the roll animation which is slower and can't be used as much as a primary movement option.
Also it wouldn't allow for wavelanding, which is more important than wavedashing for many characters.

Sorry for the late response. It requires you to press L, not necessarily shield, then roll, then jump. No reason why pressing all of them together can't also execute it. That would actually an improvement over the input delay required for a wavedash. As for wavelanding, it'd be easy to add something similar. Just have an air-dodge into the ground transition to the new technique.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Hmm...
Its an interesting Idea... But it seems less useful than a standard wd.
How would you control the distance it travels?
And you wouldn't be able to JC shines and things into a wd (waveshine) since you can't cancel your jump with shield.

 

[Big-Cat]

Here's some food for thought, and I've suggested this a few times:

1. Make the inputs for wavedashing to be df, df (33) and db, db (11). To accommodate this, only the back direction would let you turn around.

2. Doing the wavedash with this input will have the wavedash go at its maximum distance. To reduce the distance, press down or shield (especially if the startup and recovery of shield were to be nonexistant).

This would be something like how Marvel does its wavedashes.

 

[El Duderino]

How would you control the distance it travels?

How far you push →

And you wouldn't be able to JC shines and things into a wd (waveshine) since you can't cancel your jump with shield.

Unless of course when you jump cancel, they'll let you directly transition into it if you are also pressing L. But lets not get too tied up with how this accessible wavedashing alternative could recreate all the ATs from Melee. I'm more interested in seeing what new could be done with it as a part of the fighting engine design.


@KumaOso - Ehhh, that sounds too out of place in Smash. I like "L + → + Jump" because it's essentially a ultra simplified version of the input from Melee, plus it doesn't require doing anything fancy with the control stick. Another cool thing is you could follow it up with another one by holding L + → and just tapping jump.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't see how a 11 or 33 input is fancier than an arguably unintuitive button input combination. Sure, it's different than what Smash had done, but that's not a bad thing.

 

[El Duderino]

I don't see how a 11 or 33 input is fancier than an arguably unintuitive button input combination. Sure, it's different than what Smash had done, but that's not a bad thing.

A double diagonal down move for fighting game that primarily uses the thumb stick? That really sounds like a good idea to you?

On the other hand one shoulder button, one face button, and a direction has been a staple of accessible console games for years. Go play NBA Jam and tell me dunking with turbo is unintuitive. Or long jumping in Mario64. It's easy, imediately responsive, and pretty hard to **** up. That's why it's a better fit for Smash than suited for a d-pad or arcade stick.

 

[Big-Cat]

Looking at it again, I can see it working once you described it like a long jump. Still weird, but I'd get used to it.

 

[Kink-Link5]

33 on a D-Pad is kind of obnoxious, as are 623s if the game doesn't have an intuitive input recognition. Like SG is stupidly difficult on a pad since it needs 6, 2, and 26 pressed independently without going into 6 afterward.

 

[Big-Cat]

Hey, if I can go from platformer inputs to FG inputs, I can do other inputs.

 

[IhaveSonar]

I question the whole mentality of Melee not being accessible to "casual" players. Back in the melee days I never met a single person who thought the game was too hard.

 

[Blad01]

I question the whole mentality of Melee not being accessible to "casual" players. Back in the melee days I never met a single person who thought the game was too hard.

Same here.

I would go even further : The argument that the gap between good and average players is too frustrating in Melee does not make it less frustrating in Brawl. I beat my friends every time at Brawl, so now they don't want to play it anymore (at least with me).

So yeah, the whole 'make it more accessible' argument does not stand.

 

[Ferio_Kun]

Same here.

I would go even further : The argument that the gap between good and average players is too frustrating in Melee does not make it less frustrating in Brawl. I beat my friends every time at Brawl, so now they don't want to play it anymore (at least with me).

So yeah, the whole 'make it more accessible' argument does not stand.

The issue with Melee vs Brawl for casuals was not the same, though. With Melee it appeared to casual players, (who didn't know any better) that the people were just glitching and exploiting the game to destroy them. (which wave dashing was an exploit, so I can see why they would be upset) With Brawl they are less angry because there isn't as many exploits and gimmicks (in the casuals mind) in Brawl save tripping.

Of course the competitive scene sees Brawl as more gimmicky because they used the exploits properly, and well tripping IS very gimmicky.

So the gap WAS more frustrating in Melee (for casuals) and that's who Sakurai was referring to when he said that.

Hope that sheds some light on the subject.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Except wavedashing has little effect on the outcome of the game.
Besides, iirc, sakurai said something about how they thought something like a wavedash would be possible, but believed it would be too difficult and irrelevant to actual gameplay, so they left the mechanics that allow it to happen in the game. Then he got mad when people used it.

But I think casuals still get discouraged no matter which game they get wrecked in.
Those that want to improve will actually put the time in to improve.
Those that don't, won't care.

No matter how hard he tries, I don't think sakurai can make a smash game where player skill is totally irrelevant.

 

[Shadow Huan]

wavedashing changes the dynamics of the game with fox and falco because they can do it out of their shines. enough practice with that = free combos and pressure.

but it's not a big deal with the other characters, just a movement tricksie/different spacing tool that's entirely optional

 

[El Duderino]

Well for a lot of other characters it is pretty useful as a spacing tool. I do agree the effectiveness is largely overblown by the players critical of it, but it certainly can contribute to the outcome of a match. After all wavedashing back and following with say an ftilt or fsmash is a pretty handy tool to have in your belt. It's just not usually the sole reason one player wins.

I like to equate it to the spot dodge. It can be a game changer, but it has to be used effectively. Use it half hazardously and it will do more harm than good.

 

[Ove]

Don't forget that Wavedashing (Wavelanding) is a very useful tool when moving around a stage with platforms. Your characters moves, both horizontally and vertically, increase significantly, resulting in effective mindgames.

 

[FooltheFlames]

I think he cares about only what the casual players (the largest demographic and therefore most profitable) want and purposely goes against the competitive gaming community. Remember when Brawl was first coming out and some Smashboard members that played the demo at E3 found out it still had Lcanceling? We talked about in detail how the new Lcanceling was done and when the retail version came out it was no where to be found in the game but the game still had an entire host of both useless and game crippling glitches? No coincidence I believe, we had a spy among us and probably still do...

 

[Ove]

I think he cares about only what the casual players (the largest demographic and therefore most profitable) want and purposely goes against the competitive gaming community. Remember when Brawl was first coming out and some Smashboard members that played the demo at E3 found out it still had Lcanceling? We talked about in detail how the new Lcanceling was done and when the retail version came out it was no where to be found in the game but the game still had an entire host of both useless and game crippling glitches? No coincidence I believe, we had a spy among us and probably still do...

Why would he go against the competitive gaming community when a majority of the casual players don't mind if there are some ATs in the game? Like I said earlier, Nintendo is trying to appeal to both casual and hardcore players at the same time.

 

[Vkrm]

It's work they don't have to do. I think sakurai likes that melee has been played in tourney more than a decade after it's release but I don't think making smash 4 like that is a goal for him at this time.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Why would he go against the competitive gaming community when a majority of the casual players don't mind if there are some ATs in the game? Like I said earlier, Nintendo is trying to appeal to both casual and hardcore players at the same time.

I don't know why Sakurai would do that but he did. I was one of the players who got to play the E For All demo. The game was so different.

You could dash dance like in Melee, Sonics in particular was amazing. You could waveland by doing an aerial that carried momentum low to the ground. For Sonic, Mario and Fox doing a Bair close to the ground allowed them to waveland. Pikachu could waveland by quick attacking on the ground at an angle. Crouch canceling and double stick DI worked, and you could charge smashes with the C-stick. Done things were changed about the characters too, For example: Fox's Dthrow and Peach's Fthrow functioned just like they did in Melee, Fox's fair had less vertical knock back so he could chain it into Uair, which was somewhat weaker than it was now. Ike was much slower but had significantly more power, his Aether also had virtually no horizontal recovery; less than he has now.

I don't know what happened but Brawl could have been something more than it is today. I miss the demo.

 

[Ferio_Kun]

I don't know why Sakurai would do that but he did. I was one of the players who got to play the E For All demo. The game was so different.

You could dash dance like in Melee, Sonics in particular was amazing. You could waveland by doing an aerial that carried momentum low to the ground. For Sonic, Mario and Fox doing a Bair close to the ground allowed them to waveland. Pikachu could waveland by quick attacking on the ground at an angle. Crouch canceling and double stick DI worked, and you could charge smashes with the C-stick. Done things were changed about the characters too, For example: Fox's Dthrow and Peach's Fthrow functioned just like they did in Melee, Fox's fair had less vertical knock back so he could chain it into Uair, which was somewhat weaker than it was now. Ike was much slower but had significantly more power, his Aether also had virtually no horizontal recovery; less than he has now.

I don't know what happened but Brawl could have been something more than it is today. I miss the demo.

I would say I'm more in the 'casual' player lump. But this does sound really cool. My only qualm with melee was wave dashing because it just felt gimmicky to me. But everything you mentioned above sounds pretty sweet!