Does Sakurai actually care what we (fans) want?

[~ Valkyrie ~]

We've mostly noticed how he does the Smash Bros-games the way he likes and sometimes it creates pretty odd or not really well-received things, like the Space Furries having all the same moveset, him having some biasment on Kirby and WarioWare-series, SSE's genericness, him alienating the competitive community with the casual direction Brawl took, the concept of Assist Trophies, making Toon Link an exact clone because "the younger Link is the true Link" (even if Wind Waker even indicates that Hero Of Winds doesn't have any connection to other Links from the start) and so on.

So are we just trying to set ourselves for a very huge disappointment with our fanbase expections and gonna just experience even more "SAAAAAKURAAAIIIIIIIII"'s than last time?

Discuss.

 

[Karnu]

Probably not lol.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Considering he actually took on the job of making another smash bros, even after he said he was done after the huge amount of work put into brawl, I think he cares.

Not easy for someone to take on a project as big as SSB4.

Also take into account that everything about smash bros is a fans dream. Nintendo characters fighting eachother!?! Awesome.

 

[SmashChu]

We've mostly noticed how he does the Smash Bros-games the way he likes and sometimes it creates pretty odd or not really well-received things, like the Space Furries having all the same moveset, him having some biasment on Kirby and WarioWare-series, SSE's genericness, him alienating the competitive community with the casual direction Brawl took, the concept of Assist Trophies, making Toon Link an exact clone because "the younger Link is the true Link" (even if Wind Waker even indicates that Hero Of Winds doesn't have any connection to other Links from the start) and so on.

So are we just trying to set ourselves for a very huge disappointment with our fanbase expections and gonna just experience even more "SAAAAAKURAAAIIIIIIIII"'s than last time?

Discuss.

Everything you mentioned is very minor stuff. Sakurai added 15 new characters, a lot of which were highly requested and a bunch of music. He did a lot of things we like.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Everything you mentioned is very minor stuff. Sakurai added 15 new characters, a lot of which were highly requested and a bunch of music. He did a lot of things we like.

I dunno really if SSE was a "very" minor stuff... and Starfy as the Goldeen of Assist Trophy was more like a giant middle finger for me as a longtime Starfy-fan. Same for Toon Link being a clone because I liked him being so different from other Links in Wind Waker. Why he could've used his own items in his attacks.

Brawl mostly did the expected stuff right but what would be in SSB4? Will the same happen because we have even less "likely" or "highly demanded" stuff to happen? We're still not certain if highly requested characters like Ridley or Toad would make it, and if next Adventure Mode's gonna be done right this time compared to SSE (having Nintendo-worlds explorable).
And then there's the competitive aspect-demands...

 

[DakotaBonez]

I'm one of the very few people who prefer Warioware style Wario in Brawl as opposed to the Platformer Wario. But you could play as both so no problems there.

I think he'll prove he hears us by removing random tripping.

 

[rED023b]

He doesn't care about his western audience, and this is why. He cares about his Japanese audience, otherwise we would not be seeing this guy.

 

[Jaedrik]

I would like to have more opportunities to shout and curse the name, "SAKURAAAAAAAIIIIII!"

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think a lot of us want to be Sakurai right now.

 

[MelMoe]

If he doesn't release an international poll this time, he probably doesn't care.

I would like to have more opportunities to shout and curse the name, "SAKURAAAAAAAIIIIII!"

Lulz

 

[Kink-Link5]

Probably not lol.

I would say I had something more to add, but the question is pretty 0/1 and straightforward.

 

[Enlong]

He doesn't care about his western audience, and this is why. He cares about his Japanese audience, otherwise we would not be seeing this guy.

Ahaha. Really?

Lucas is evidence of him not caring about the western audience? When there was (as far as I have been told) outcry for an international release of Mother 3 since it was released in Japan? Especially when you consider the rejoicing across the internet when the fan-patch for Mother 3 was completed.

But I will agree that that poll (that I voted in each time) is kind of a fiasco. At least Dunsparce got out-voted, so it looks less like a total joke.

Re: Starfy. I think that was Sakurai having some fun at the expense of Kirby's old rival-series.

 

[SmashChu]

I dunno really if SSE was a "very" minor stuff... and Starfy as the Goldeen of Assist Trophy was more like a giant middle finger for me as a longtime Starfy-fan. Same for Toon Link being a clone because I liked him being so different from other Links in Wind Waker. Why he could've used his own items in his attacks.

Brawl mostly did the expected stuff right but what would be in SSB4? Will the same happen because we have even less "likely" or "highly demanded" stuff to happen? We're still not certain if highly requested characters like Ridley or Toad would make it, and if next Adventure Mode's gonna be done right this time compared to SSE (having Nintendo-worlds explorable).
And then there's the competitive aspect-demands...

Starfy not being in is not a big deal. There were more important characters to add. Talk to the Issac fans, or Ridley or Little Mac. There are a lot of important characters to add
Not sure why Toon Link is that bad. He's Young Link
I'll talk about the SSE in the future, but it being Nintendo world is a good thing. I can see your point.
While people here will hate this, there is no point to appease a small community (the competitive) when the things they want are not what everyone else wants (everyone else even hates their suggestions).

Basically, they are small things compaared to the greater whole. This is never going to be a perfect game because we all have an idea on how it should be done. The man needs to appease everyone, which means the game is always going to be missing a little something for each person. It still does not look at all the OTHER things in the game. Sakurai cares and it shows. I don't think I need to point a lot of the additions he made.

 

[VictoryIsMudkipz]

He's no going to cater to all of our wants, but he is putting alot of effort in a game he believes will be well received by the Majority, Old & New fans, It's crazy to say he doesn't care about us, it's just when you have millions & millions of fans you just can listen to all of them, you have to go with you gut & make a product everyone enjoys, and as much as you people complain about Brawl, you still enjoyed it, & will continue to play it until the next game comes out, so obviously he's doing something right
Sakurai 4 President

 

[Oasis_S]

I feel like.

If you had the opportunity to ask Sakurai "do you care?"

He would give you a look, and you would feel embarrassed.

Unless you were a competitive player, and then he would probably laugh.

 

[---]

I think a lot of us want to be Sakurai right now.

And have to put up with a whining competitve community, fans spamming his twitter with silly things such as Mr. Peepers, people who keep spreading false information and rumors, as well dealing with the worst game hype base in the fighting game community?


Anyway it's rediculous to think that Sakurai doesn't listen to the fans. I can't count how many examples there are of him trying to give fanservice. Heck the entire Smash series is one big tribute to Nintendo fans.

 

[El Duderino]

Sure he does, with Brawl plenty of fans were asking for a lower barrier between low and high level play. If anything he was listening a little too well, addressing some minor complaints that compromised how sharp the gameplay was. Somewhere deep in the cesspool of moaning over the skill level gap in Melee and what's fair (ugh, I hate that word), Sakurai must have concluded it was necessary to start artificially suppressing what he could. Of course though, the better players will always find ways to increase their odds. It's everyone else that feels the brunt of the handicaps.


I really hope he has learned appeasing the most melodramatic fans is not worth the effort. It would be very nice to see Smash4 focus on making the average player better rather than dragging the top players down. Let everyone discover the extra fun to be had.

 

[DarkSouls]

He cares in a sort of roundabout way, but I really think his preferred method of choosing things is playing blindfolded with a big dartboard that has a bunch of little post-it notes attached; things with a large fanbase get an extra spot on the board.

I think this is an adequate explanation for how Brawl turned out.

 

[Carlo_H.Luz]

Of course he does! But its hard to make 100% of players happy. Maybe he can take in consideration some of our requests here in this forum to know what we want, or at least what the most wants.

 

[emmamj]

I think so!

He doesn't care about his western audience, and this is why. He cares about his Japanese audience, otherwise we would not be seeing this guy.

 

[smashbot226]

If Sakurai had actually cared about the audience he caters to the general community would not be feeling a lingering sense of disappointment in Brawl. Of course, that's half our own fault for hyping up the game's build-up and weekly reveals (Remember how excited you all were about stage builder and a story mode? I'm sure you'd prefer not to but thems the breaks.) but also in part due to Sakurai completely taking advantage of our collective idiocy.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I think he does, but I also think it's a goddamn hard work gor him, with all the insane requests as "I want Naruto!" "I want Goku!" "I want Batman!". Gosh! I pity the poor man that has to bear all this ****.

 

[Life]

Obligatory in any and all Sakurai discussion.

 

[AtticusFinch]

I feel like.

If you had the opportunity to ask Sakurai "do you care?"

He would give you a look, and you would feel embarrassed.

Unless you were a competitive player, and then he would probably laugh.

This lol. I just don't understand how you can put together a team of Melee veterans and get Brawl. I can't help but ask myself while playing Brawl, "How did they NOT see this in their testing? Did they not realize how broken this is?" But I still play because its a great game, flaws and all.

 

[Arcadenik]

He doesn't care about his western audience, and this is why. He cares about his Japanese audience, otherwise we would not be seeing this guy.

GASP! Waluigi and Dunsparce are not on this poll. My faith is restored!

BTW, Sakurai planned to add Lucas in Melee so...

 

[DarkShadow20]

Not really, or else he wouldn't be needlessly changing the direction of the game and just add several new characters and focus more on gameplay and balancing like everyone wants him to do.

 

[SmashChu]

I really hope he has learned appeasing the most melodramatic fans is not worth the effort. It would be very nice to see Smash4 focus on making the average player better rather than dragging the top players down. Let everyone discover the extra fun to be had.

Brawl was made with the average player in mind which is why he took out a lot of things they didn't like. Wavedashing was hated by everyone and no one wanted to see a more competitive Smash. It is pretty obvious that most Smash fans hate competitive Smash.

If Sakurai had actually cared about the audience he caters to the general community would not be feeling a lingering sense of disappointment in Brawl. Of course, that's half our own fault for hyping up the game's build-up and weekly reveals (Remember how excited you all were about stage builder and a story mode? I'm sure you'd prefer not to but thems the breaks.) but also in part due to Sakurai completely taking advantage of our collective idiocy.

Again, this is more from the Smash Board people than everyone in general. Only people who seem to think Brawl was a disappointment were competitive players. Everyone else likes it.

 

[Jaklub]

Only people who seem to think Brawl was a disappointment were competitive players. Everyone else likes it.

this on so many levels

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Only people who seem to think Brawl was a disappointment were competitive players. Everyone else likes it.

Tell that to my friend who has NEVER gone to a tourney in his life and yet still loathes Brawl.

Tell that to Screwattack, who chose Melee over Brawl as the best game in the series without mentioning any of the gameplay changes.

And, once again, I am a CASUAL player who prefers Melee to Brawl.

 

[Big-Cat]

Brawl was made with the average player in mind which is why he took out a lot of things they didn't like. Wavedashing was hated by everyone and no one wanted to see a more competitive Smash. It is pretty obvious that most Smash fans hate competitive Smash.

Dat hyperbole. This is like the one videogame series I've seen that strangely has an anticompetitive crowd. Anyway, do you think anyone would be complaining as hard if this stuff was actually easier.

Again, this is more from the Smash Board people than everyone in general. Only people who seem to think Brawl was a disappointment were competitive players. Everyone else likes it.

Tell that to my casual playing friends who hated it because it was a slow, floaty game and didn't find it all that rewarding to play.

 

[SmashChu]

Dat hyperbole. This is like the one videogame series I've seen that strangely has an anticompetitive crowd. Anyway, do you think anyone would be complaining as hard if this stuff was actually easier.

Tell that to my casual playing friends who hated it because it was a slow, floaty game and didn't find it all that rewarding to play.

Anecdote much (hey, don't give me that look, you did it to me).

Fact is that most games are anti competitive. Just that Smash is one of the few games where they have a voice. Brawl is fine as it is. The complaints stem from "it's not Melee." I have yet to hear anyone say Brawl is bad without referencing Melee. I'm sure we'll see this all again with SSB4.

 

[Starphoenix]

Sakurai is probably the only person who can sit there and tell me what I want and actually be right about it. He just has a knack for having the pulse of his fanbase.

 

[Deleted member]

Without this guy, Nintendo won't do Smash well. Sakurai is the only director that can do the job to satisifaction of the consumers. And I couldn't be more thankful.

I think a lot of us want to be Sakurai right now.

This (but I personally don't). But thankfully, none of us are, else this game would suck.

Sakurai is probably the only person who can sit there and tell me what I want and actually be right about it. He just has a knack for having the pulse of his fanbase.

And this. So much this.

 

[Katakiri]

Brawl was made with the average player in mind which is why he took out a lot of things they didn't like. Wavedashing was hated by everyone and no one wanted to see a more competitive Smash. It is pretty obvious that most Smash fans hate competitive Smash.

That couldn't be farther from the truth. No one hates wavedashing. Sakurai purposely kept Wavedashing in Melee. It wasn't something the competitive community discovered first. It was taken out of Brawl in favor of allowing the player to dodge in midair without going into free-fall. Most anyone would agree that not going into free-fall is a worthy trade-off for the removal of the directional air-dodge. Don't mistake preference for hatred. I am however convinced that he took out L-Cancelling to shrink the gap between casual and competitive players.

Casual players don't hate competitive smash. Most would find it interesting to watch skilled-players fight head-to-head. That's the same with any fighting game or...actually ANY game; just look at the prevalence of speed runs of video games on the internet. Casual players don't like fighting competitive player for obvious reasons and no one likes to see their favorite character labeled as bad in a tier list but that's everyone, competitive players included; no one likes getting 3-stocked. If you sense hatred from the Smash bros jokes like "No items, Fox only, FD" then you should learn to take a joke then realize that joke is from 2006 and was started by Competitive Players poking fun at our own game. Times change.

Only people who seem to think Brawl was a disappointment were competitive players. Everyone else likes it.

This is true but only a select chunk of competitive players think that way but with good reason as the vast majority of the disappointing factors in Brawl only affect competitive players. Balancing issues, chain grabs, camping, planking, etc. those are issues that only affect us. In a 4-player free-for-all, those factors mean jack squat with items only making them even less of an issue.

Brawl's biggest flaw affects all players however; the speed. Casual players won't mind the speed drop or at least until they've tasted speed. I've had a 2 different groups of friends, all super-casual players, play Project:M for a few hours, having a blast with it in 4-player 4-stock FFAs with no items on...and then I put regular Brawl back on. In both cases, each group noticed the dramatic difference in speed and stopped having fun with normal Brawl. Now we all just play Project:M exclusively for our FFAs. I still play Brawl from the tourney scene and community.

Speed is fun. Plain and simple. And that is where Sakurai screwed up the most; he mistook speed for competitive factor and the entire game suffered for it. But it's still Smash Bros, so of course most people won't complain about it but again if you give even the most casual players a taste of what Brawl could have been with the speed re-added, they'll agree that while Brawl is still a great game, Sakurai made a massive error.

 

[SmashChu]

That couldn't be farther from the truth. No one hates wavedashing.
Casual players don't hate competitive smash.

You are really out if it. The term tourney*** came as a result of Smash Boards (google it and you'll get Smash stuff). You should have seen the reactions to competitive Smash. "Tier don't exist," was a real thing and was telling competitive players to fly a kite. There was a lot to it. If you get our of here, you'll see it.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Although people in the west are spamming dunsparce, I bet that there is equal amount of spam for Chibi Hatsune Miku in the east. He can probably see past the spam for the actual wants, but I wouldn't be surprised if the devs were to put in dunsparce as a pokeball for a laugh.

I didn't take notice of the speed difference between melee and brawl because in melee I always played on lightning mode. So I just assumed brawl was the same speed as melee was when when not in lightning mode.

The fact that I played lightning melee more only supports the point above that speed = fun. Because it does. Kirby airide let you play the entire game in the normal crazy speed or a slower more reasonable speed in the options. If they could do that in smash bros it'd be great! You can play fast in multiplayer in the current games but yer stuck at normal speed in single player modes, add speedy single player. Also playing in slowmo would be cool.

Still I've always preferred quantity over quality, so as long as there's 50 characters and Trophies galore I'm set.

 

[Vkrm]

When sakurai remove l canceling and wavedashing all it did was shrink the skill floor, it did nothing to stop competitive play. I don't understand all this hate from the casuals for hardcore crowd. In a game like smash where the goal is only is beat the other player being competitive is a natural part of playing the game is it not?



Also this is just my opinion, but if sakurai has complete creative control that probably means smash 4 will follow in melee's footsteps. Now that we've moved past the wii and nintendo's goal to makes games for old ladies has been achieved maybe now some games that are actually fun can get made. If you were in sakurai's place would you tailor make a game for group who will play it only while it's new and trade the game once they've seen most of the content? Since the hardcore crowd will be playing the game for years to come I think theyre the ones consult when it comes to making the next smash. Just my thoughts....

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Brawl was made with the average player in mind which is why he took out a lot of things they didn't like. Wavedashing was hated by everyone and no one wanted to see a more competitive Smash. It is pretty obvious that most Smash fans hate competitive Smash.



Again, this is more from the Smash Board people than everyone in general. Only people who seem to think Brawl was a disappointment were competitive players. Everyone else likes it.

Brawl was terribly designed for both the average and veteran player. Atleast in Melee you can play the game casually without going "How the hell did I just fall down?" or "Why did I just drop off the ledge for no reason?". The game was rushed and lacked depth for even a casual player. Even simple things like Break the Targets were eliminated and the desire to beat stage records didn't even exist. Subspace was way too long and redundant. It felt as if I was forced to play through it to unlock characters since I no longer have the time of day to play thousands of matches.

Wavedashing was fine. It was a cool technique that benefited every character to a certain degree. Fun Fact: In the E For All 2007 Brawl demo you could wavedash. It was done by executing an aerial that gave you momentum low on the ground. For Mario, Samus and Sonic you could waveland backwards by doing their Bair low to the ground. Unfortunately we got narked on, but it was still there. It seems like the only reason Brawl was nerfed so hard was to cater to Nintendo's demographic.

All of my casual friends hated Brawl. The stage design besides about 5 or 6 stages was garbage, the frame rate of the game couldn't handle as many pokemon or items in Melee so the item spawn ratio was greatly reduced, it was slow, the game demos were pointless, timed ledge grabs weren't good and were broken by some characters, gameplay is was too passive, no real target test, very little character modification on the veterans. The only thing that was improved from Melee in Brawl was that the audience was more enthusiastic in the US version.

Anecdote much (hey, don't give me that look, you did it to me).

Fact is that most games are anti competitive. Just that Smash is one of the few games where they have a voice. Brawl is fine as it is. The complaints stem from "it's not Melee." I have yet to hear anyone say Brawl is bad without referencing Melee. I'm sure we'll see this all again with SSB4.

I can say Melee is good while referencing Brawl. I can also say Melee was great when referencing Smash 64. I can say Brawl is bad while referring to Melee and 64. But I can never say Brawl was good by referring to Melee and Smash 64.

If Brawl wasn't bad then why do we have a community committed to modifying the game to play like it's previous installments? You don't see Street Fighter 4 being modded to play like it's previous games. I want to have the same sense in smash that I get from Street Fighter; every iteration of the game has it's own unique depth, characters and timeless play style. Smash 4 will be competitive no matter how terrible it is, making it bad for a competitive player doesn't help anyone. Hopefully Sakurai already knows this considering what happened with Brawl.

 

[TL?]

Can we just block smashchu from the smash4 forums? This guy is just trolling nonstop. If not, we should all just add him to our ignore group.

 

[El Duderino]

It would be very nice to see Smash4 focus on making the average player better rather than dragging the top players down.

Brawl was made with the average player in mind which is why he took out a lot of things they didn't like.

I guess my point went completely over your head.

Rather than trying to clamp the skill level, tackle the issue from the ground up. Simplify the technical differentiators as opposed to trashing the fighting engine in the name of removing them.

You tell me, what sounds better coming from a developer, "people are playing too well, lets put a halt to that", or "lets address the skill gap through evolving the mechanics to naturally lead to a more accessible, yet still rich, higher level play". Empowering average skill level players is a far superior solution than trying to strip the top. Sakurai fighting the most dedicated players is a loosing battle, they'll always find ways of improving their odds, sometimes even exploiting the very changes designed to lower them. If Smash4 continues down Brawl's preventative path it will only mean even more gameplay limiting adjustments for everyone and less actual universal improvements. The more they try making the game fair for the lowest common denominator, the worse it will play and the more bland it will become.

The direction of the Smash4 simply has to change if it is to get better and not worse.