Does Sakurai actually care what we (fans) want?

[Supermodel From Paris]

Am I just stupid? I like Brawl's mechanics. They're far from perfect; I like the direction it was going though.

Here's where I'm at with the brawl vs. melee thing:

1. Melee is fast, and that's fun for a while, but... hm. The best analogy I've got is food. If you're presented with a really awesome meal you want to savor every bite you take. The combination of fall speed, low hitlag, and the like make melee go by really fast. I can see why that's appealing but I personally find brawl's pace to be more satisfying. A compromise between the two would be great. Melee's speed is fun, again, but sometimes the cool moments just go by too quickly for my taste.

2. Combos! People love combos and hate hitstun cancelling in brawl, and frankly I'm right there with them. While I like that Brawl allowed players to break out of strings, I don't like that it was so easy, or virtually guaranteed. What might work better is some kind of limited guard break system.

The cool thing about Brawl's hitstun cancelling mechanic was the satisfaction of predicting your opponent's actions again after every hit. It really feels good to bait an air dodge and then punish them for it. With that said, it might be even more satisfying if it was a real surprise when they broke out of your combo. Let's say you have melee's hitstun mechanics but everyone has one guard-break per stock by hitting say, A+B at the same time, which could be baited out and punished. That's a very crude example, it could probably be done better.

3. Out of shield options! I like Brawl's out of shield options, but I also like that shielding isn't totally safe in melee. Something in between would be great.

4. L-cancelling is bad and should never come back.

5. Momentum cancelling is one of the coolest things that was added by Brawl. It would be really cool if this was legitimized in some way, rather than just being a side effect of bad mechanics. Call this one a "happy accident."

6. Tech chase game in melee was awesome, i'd love to see it return.


I think what's a little wrong with the melee community sometimes (not necessarily in this thread) is that many of them have sort of refused to let brawl have it's own identity. Brawl had a lot of problems, but it seems to a lot of melee guys, the biggest problem it had was that it wasn't melee.

Let melee be melee. Let Smash 4 be Smash 4. Let it have it's own tricks, quirks, speed, and metagame. We already have melee, let's have something else now.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Let melee be melee. Let Smash 4 be Smash 4. Let it have it's own tricks, quirks, speed, and metagame. We already have melee, let's have something else now.

This is exactly what i want: I want SSB4 to take lessons from Brawl, Melee, and 64 and be something unique at the same time.

And to answer your question, no, you aren't stupid. You just have an opinion, which is always good.

 

[Vkrm]

Nope. None of the changes in brawl should make it into smash 4. That game sucks... I like how sakurai set only one goal in brawl and did the exact opposite by making the most unintuitive smash game so far.

 

[Ferio_Kun]

Nope. None of the changes in brawl should make it into smash 4. That game sucks... I like how sakurai set only one goal in brawl and did the exact opposite by making the most unintuitive smash game so far.

That's kind of a closed-minded opinion. To each his own I suppose.

I agree with above. Smash 4 should be it's own game, but also take a look at the past 3 games and mix and match for perfection.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I want it to be the same, but different. What is so impossible about that simple request.

 

[MR. K]

I don't know why Sakurai would do that but he did. I was one of the players who got to play the E For All demo. The game was so different.

You could dash dance like in Melee, Sonics in particular was amazing. You could waveland by doing an aerial that carried momentum low to the ground. For Sonic, Mario and Fox doing a Bair close to the ground allowed them to waveland. Pikachu could waveland by quick attacking on the ground at an angle. Crouch canceling and double stick DI worked, and you could charge smashes with the C-stick. Done things were changed about the characters too, For example: Fox's Dthrow and Peach's Fthrow functioned just like they did in Melee, Fox's fair had less vertical knock back so he could chain it into Uair, which was somewhat weaker than it was now. Ike was much slower but had significantly more power, his Aether also had virtually no horizontal recovery; less than he has now.

I don't know what happened but Brawl could have been something more than it is today. I miss the demo.

i actually really wish i could see the demo in action now...makes me wonder what else was possible in it...


i know something like this would never happen but, I think it'd be neat if nintendo actually released some of the original demo and the very early beta versions of some of their games, brawl included.

It'd be neat being able to play these old versions, or at least see em in action first hand. Sure a lot of em would be unplayable such as many of the tech demo's and early versions of zelda 64, but it'd still be pretty neat anyhow to see the ideas that didn't make it into the final game.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Here's where I'm at with the brawl vs. melee thing:

1. Melee is fast, and that's fun for a while, but... hm. The best analogy I've got is food. If you're presented with a really awesome meal you want to savor every bite you take. The combination of fall speed, low hitlag, and the like make melee go by really fast. I can see why that's appealing but I personally find brawl's pace to be more satisfying. A compromise between the two would be great. Melee's speed is fun, again, but sometimes the cool moments just go by too quickly for my taste.

melee can be pretty slow if you want it to be...
i.e. floaty dittos.
it is more fluid though.

2.Combos! People love combos and hate hitstun cancelling in brawl, and frankly I'm right there with them. While I like that Brawl allowed players to break out of strings, I don't like that it was so easy, or virtually guaranteed. What might work better is some kind of limited guard break system.

it depends on how they go about doing this...
I don't really think it benefits the game. Except if hitstun could be canceled at the end frames.

The cool thing about Brawl's hitstun cancelling mechanic was the satisfaction of predicting your opponent's actions again after every hit. It really feels good to bait an air dodge and then punish them for it. With that said, it might be even more satisfying if it was a real surprise when they broke out of your combo. Let's say you have melee's hitstun mechanics but everyone has one guard-break per stock by hitting say, A+B at the same time, which could be baited out and punished. That's a very crude example, it could probably be done better.

uhm... this sounds awful... tbh...

3. Out of shield options! I like Brawl's out of shield options, but I also like that shielding isn't totally safe in melee. Something in between would be great.

melee has really good OoS stuff...
I.e. the spacies shine OoS, peach's FC nairs, various upBs OoS, usmash OoS, wavedash OoS, etc.
Brawl just has really low shieldstun, making things easy to punish, and making the concept of shield pressure irrelevant.

4. L-cancelling is bad and should never come back.

what's the logic behind this? L-canceling existed in both melee and 64 (z-canceling), it does not inhibit the game by any means, in fact it makes approaching safer, which allows the game to be more fluid....

5. Momentum cancelling is one of the coolest things that was added by Brawl. It would be really cool if this was legitimized in some way, rather than just being a side effect of bad mechanics. Call this one a "happy accident."

I disagree, it a huge reason as to why it takes until like 200%+ to take stocks in brawl. its also partly why combos don't exist.

6. Tech chase game in melee was awesome, i'd love to see it return.

to use Lucien's words, it was "toxic gameplay." reaction tech-chases made characters with slower techrolls (i.e. every lowtier) get 0-deathed once they were put in knockdown state.
I think that there should be a few legit techchases left in the game, but the vast majority of reaction techchases should be removed. this leaves less of a focus on reacting and more on predicting and locking down options.

I think what's a little wrong with the melee community sometimes (not necessarily in this thread) is that many of them have sort of refused to let brawl have it's own identity. Brawl had a lot of problems, but it seems to a lot of melee guys, the biggest problem it had was that it wasn't melee.

I don't think this is the case. I don't hate brawl because its not melee. I don't really hate brawl at all, I simply think it fails on a competitive level and is not as fun as melee or 64. 64 isn't melee, but I still enjoy the game quite a bit. I feel as though brawl is a decent game on its own, but has too many mechanic flaws to be a fluid or competitive game. The game has a few good qualities, but so many of the game's mechanics bring it down. It forces players to be defensive, rather than providing the option to choose between aggressive and defensive style that melee offered. There is also nothing to learn in the game, I think this makes it uninteresting as a game. I want a game that I can spend time on. I think one of the wonderful things about melee was that it's super easy to pick up at a casual level, but it is incredibly difficult to to master. brawl doesn't have that same appeal.

Let melee be melee. Let Smash 4 be Smash 4. Let it have it's own tricks, quirks, speed, and metagame. We already have melee, let's have something else now.

I agree with you, I don't think smash 4 should be melee. but it shouldn't be brawl either. It needs to be unique, but at the same time a successful smash game. It shouldn't repeat brawl's mistakes or carry over the mechanics that inhibit the game.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The problem with the Melee community is that they ever thought 4 and even 3 stock matches would be a good idea when Brawl came out.

I guess it comes from a resistance to change, so rulesets passed down as much as possible instead of looking right away into 1 and 2-stock matches, which fit the pace of the game much better.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Melee community... resistance to change...

Hmm...

 

[Big-Cat]

Not like any other community is subject to that.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

I still maintain that lots of communities are dumb.

Maybe I should say, vocal communities. They pretty much just complain.

 

[Linnom]

Sakurai, just look at the project m, do the same thing, then we will have 3 melees for the happiness of (almost) everyone in this thread.

ssb64 (not bad)
ssbm (divine)
ssbb (slow plankfest without technical stuff)
p:m (divine 2)
ssb4 (divine 3)

 

[Vkrm]

They should just ignore all of the changes made in brawl and use melee as the base for smash 4.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I wouldn't be apposed to a better balanced, less defensive version of ssb64 with a broader cast.
Twas a fun game.
Its also pretty easy to pick up.
And has stuff to learn (though it is no melee)

I think that might be the direction that the new game should take.
Also less sharp graphics would be nice... Brawl had decent graphics... But it really didn't fit in with the smash feel, imo.

 

[El Duderino]

Melee community... resistance to change...

Hmm...

As if the Brawl community that fought tooth and nail to defend their game of choice is not capable of throwing an equivalent hissy fit in the face of change. Remember all the anti-Brawl+ outcries? What a load of utter BS its developers had to put up with just for attempting their own separate take on the core Smash experience.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

If you can't see the difference between those instances, you're silly.

I'm not anti-anything (in terms of Melee/Brawl/Brawl Mods), but yeah, they're different scenarios.

 

[El Duderino]

If you can't see the difference between those instances, you're silly.

I'm not anti-anything (in terms of Melee/Brawl/Brawl Mods), but yeah, they're different scenarios.

Never said the senario is the same. Just that the Brawl community can be just as abrasive and vested in spreading toxic cynicism if the direction doesn't match their own expectations. The more SSB4 departs from Brawl, the more that will become apparent, especially if some of the new goals conflict with those of the last tittle.

4 1/2 years after Brawl's release, the Melee community is well past the label of "change resistant". It is "resilient". After all vBrawl is plenty old now too. Criticizing Melee fans today for not moving on is like chastising people for listening to vynil while continuing to listen to your scratched CD collection.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You wouldn't understand Dude; things are different when it's YOUR side being accused of something. No bias there.

 

[El Duderino]

That's why sides are for stubborn politicians and special smash fans.

 

[Ferio_Kun]

That's why sides are for stubborn politicians and special smash fans.

Let's just take a second to agree that rabid Melee AND Brawl fans could be given the same advice. "Chill out."

I'm sure Smash 4 will have something for everyone!

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Just that the Brawl community can be just as abrasive and vested in spreading toxic cynicism if the direction doesn't match their own expectations.

This is true of any fanbase of anything ever. Doesn't justify constantly acting like insufferable ****s, but yeah, it's quite normal.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Never said the senario is the same. Just that the Brawl community can be just as abrasive and vested in spreading toxic cynicism if the direction doesn't match their own expectations. The more SSB4 departs from Brawl, the more that will become apparent, especially if some of the new goals conflict with those of the last tittle.

4 1/2 years after Brawl's release, the Melee community is well past the label of "change resistant". It is "resilient". After all vBrawl is plenty old now too. Criticizing Melee fans today for not moving on is like chastising people for listening to vynil while continuing to listen to your scratched CD collection.

As many people as there are who are anti-Melee, there are just as many who are simply offput by the Melee fanbase sh*tting on Brawl with cute little comments like your music analogy.

When you encounter resistance to your "Brawl sucks" rhetoric, remember that it's not all just people who hate Melee. Sometimes it's folks who like Brawl and Melee and 64 all the same, and just don't take kindly to having their tastes insulted because they happen to enjoy Brawl.

But yeah, as Toise said, you can't justify acting like a butt by saying everyone else does it too. It just makes you part of a larger collective of butts.

 

[El Duderino]

This is true of any fanbase of anything ever. Doesn't justify constantly acting like insufferable ****s, but yeah, it's quite normal.

Of course it is. That is why singling out one community of players for sticking with their preference is childish, pointless, and ********.

When you encounter resistance to your "Brawl sucks" rhetoric, remember that it's not all just people who hate Melee. Sometimes it's folks who like Brawl and Melee and 64 all the same, and just don't take kindly to having their tastes insulted because they happen to enjoy Brawl.

You're always going to have people with strong preferences. I'm certainly not condoning being a **** about it, but they are still entitled to their opinions. Ultimately you have to respect they are individuals capable of making their own choices. Criticizing someone for not abandoning their preferences just because something else was new and shinny 4 1/2 years ago is doing the exact opposite.

For example, take the new Spiderman move, I think it's dog**** compared to the first 2. Should I be criticized for refusing change, or is it just possibly an average movie in my eyes?

 

[GiantBreadbug]

People aren't CGing Tobey Maguire into the new "Amazing Spider Man" movie, though.

See what I'm getting at?

And see what you said there about the new movie? YOU THINK it's dog**** compared to the the others. YOU think that.

Accepting the opinions of others is the end goal, but you can't expect people to leave your opinion alone when it's touted like a fact ALL THE TIME.

 

[Ove]

You may have right to an opinion, but you seriously need a good motivation too. For instance, you can't just say a good movie, like Toy Story 3, is bad. Toy Story 3 is a good movie, but you may think it didn't live up to your expectations and therefore not enjoy it. But just because you didn't enjoy it, is it really a bad movie, or can you be sincere enough to realise it's a good movie?

Personally, I don't like FPS games. I think the genre is ridiculous, the games are boring and I am not thrilled at all. However, I can still admit Battlefield 3 is a good game because of its stunning graphics and addictive multiplayer.

I think that the people in the melee community that don't like Brawl are just as naïve as you are, El Duderino, when it comes to your opinion of Spider-man. They think Melee is a better game, and just because Brawl made some moderate changes that didn't serve the competitive aspect of the game, it's essentially a bad game. Can't they see Brawl for what it is? It's a good game that anyone can pick up and enjoy (yes, even hardcore players), it's packed with Nintendo stuff and it followed the formula of Smash.

Melee is better, no doubt about that. But that doesn't automatically mean Brawl is bad.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Of course it is. That is why singling out one community of players for sticking with their preference is childish, pointless, and ********.

Nobody's singling anybody out. Taking the time to call out other whiny fanbases is merely unnecessary because they're not here, their subject isn't being discussed.

What's really obnoxious is the attitude that we simply don't understand where you guys are coming from, so you feel like you have to explain it to us. No, we get it. We're just sick of so many discussions being dominated by endless screeching. Shut the hell up.

 

[Vkrm]

I hate brawl only because brawl is a bad game. It was my first smash game and I hated then before even knowing about the AT's in melee.

 

[pidgezero_one]

i'd like to suggest "can you make ness decent for the first time ever?"

 

[El Duderino]

Accepting the opinions of others is the end goal, but you can't expect people to leave your opinion alone when it's touted like a fact ALL THE TIME.

Vocal diehard fans are no excuse to propagate stereotypes about a whole community of players. If you want of avoid the ces pool, you don't swim and piss in it.

I may not be the biggest fan of Brawl, but presumptions people have said about the community are not worth repeating. Same goes for any smash community.

What's really obnoxious is the attitude that we simply don't understand where you guys are coming from.

That's great because I'm not asking for your pitty or understanding on anything of the sort. Just the acknowledgement that backhanded remarks about any smash game community are in poor taste and contribute nothing to discussion.

 

[Kink-Link5]

On that note, I think this thread has seriously run its course. Plain matters: Bad mouthing other people with snide comments and tactless mightier-than-thou pejoratives is always abhorred.

Requesting lock from the next available moderator.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Vocal diehard fans are no excuse to propagate stereotypes about a whole community of players. If you want of avoid the ces pool, you don't swim and piss in it.

I may not be the biggest fan of Brawl, but presumptions people have said about the community are not worth repeating. Same goes for any smash community.

Yeah, okay, I did hypocrite a bit there. I chose not to use spiteful vitriol, though.

I look forward to you practicing what you preach, as well.

*throws hands up* I'm out I'm out I'm out. Not spending any more time on the carousel.

 

[El Duderino]

I'lll admit as well, I was being a bit harsh. In the future I'll lessen my tone, but none-the-less I'm glad we're on the same page now and can put this good for nothing blanket statement to rest.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Due to a report made by a user, I will be locking this thread from any more replies.