Does Falco beat Sheik?

[DaShizWiz]

I would like to play Nihonjin , Only sheik i recall loosing to is M2K's .


And if people want a professional opinion, since I am quite a decent Falco , the matchup is 60:40, Sheiks favor.

I've played a sheik all my life named KeepSpeedN, I'd love to see a falco beat him hahah. Its not about us knowing eachothers styles, its about priority, moves and range. Believe me, Sheik wins in this matchup, few have found out how to use sheik against a Falco.

I say i have a professional opinion cause believe it or not, I know about everything about Falco, Every trick, anything that improves his gameplay, and thanks to forward and lambchops, a very good laser game which is very important against people like sheik and marth.

But yes once again, 60:40, in sheiks favor.

 

[Ryan-K]

yeah word like sheik can keep a lead strong on falco the only thing that makes her not better than marth is lack of a real chaingrab but her tech chasing and ability to kill you with anything is beast

 

[DaShizWiz]

Yes sir.........

In the matchup she is superior.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Can you explain more please? I'd really like to know why you think that.

Also, hi Shiz! =p

 

[forward]

Bronson you lost to Drephen at pound 2 =P

But yea Falco definitely needs lasers to beat Sheik.

 

[Mogwai]

The main reason I can see Sheik > Marth at the matchup is that Sheik's moves are more difficult to punish, so she can just get into a nice spacing and start pressuring him by throwing out jabs/tilts and there's very little Falco can do to punish, whereas Marth is always sorta going out on a limb trying to get a hit on Falco.

That being said, I still don't see Sheik as better than Marth vs. Falco and I certainly don't see it as in her favor... pew pew + CC shine is just too goot vs. her.

 

[forward]

CC shine? I don't see it.

 

[Mogwai]

any low-mid % aerial approach gets shut down by CC shine. I dunno, maybe it's just that I play against Sheiks who go into platform campy styles when laser pressured, but when I'm lasering a bunch, I tend to see sheiks start coming at me from the air, and when they do that, you can just CC shine -> 50% combo.

I guess one of the things that struck me as odd about the European sheiks at Pound (played both Amsah and Over Triforce) is that they seemed to like FD in the matchup and stay grounded more.

 

[gm jack]

Grab to techchase > CC. Because grab beats shield and CC for a very good techchase (player dependent), it really forces the Falco to commit. If the Sheik mixes it up with the higher priority tilts and dash attack, both of which lead to nice combos, Falco is in trouble is he makes a bad choice. For example, I believe it is Amsah who likes to empty SH as an approach and then grab out of it. You either deal with the grab, or potentially take a slap.

That said, Falco can combo Sheik back very nicely and has lasers which can make approaching difficult for the Sheik.

I would say it is an even matchup, but Falco will be in control for most of it. Sheik can punish incredibly hard once she does get in however, including lots of gimps, evening it up.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@Mogwai: I'm afraid to try anything like that since I think if they space a Fair or whatever then you would just shine and miss and then they could follow up.

 

[Ballistics]

Whats up with all the hypothetical percentages, the better player wins obviously

that being said its harder for falco to win because he has to get legit kills whereas sheik is all about teh gimping

 

[Mogwai]

@Mogwai: I'm afraid to try anything like that since I think if they space a Fair or whatever then you would just shine and miss and then they could follow up.

just CC dtilt when you think they're fairing you. More importantly though, it's not something you want to telegraph enough that they can consciously decide to space a fair against it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I didn't know that came out fast enough.....

Alright.

Could they CC the Dtilt back and still punish me? lol

 

[Mogwai]

**** naw

dtilt hits mad hard, no one CCs that ****.

also I ninja edited.

 

[Dr Peepee]

LOL aight.

I still hope people like Shiz come back and elaborate on why Sheik does so well though.....

 

[forward]

In response to Mogwai I agree with PP.

Watching my old vids vs Sheik and playing the match up again I'm realizing how the match is played. If sheik is up close, you have to shield, roll, etc. Play defensive. It's a contrast to every other match for Falco because normally when Falco is close you go bonkers with kicks and the pews and the blinks. This is what Shiz is talking about in regards to priority. Up close, sheik wins.

Falco attacks from long range vs Sheik. Blame M2K for coming along and making it a little harder to approach due to nair oos. You can still deal with that though (bait it with dash dance and punish with shuffle dair). Land a combo for about 40-60%. Land a few stray hits to build up another 15-20%. Get Sheik to that 80% range and start playing the f-tilt game a la Hugs with some bairs, and Sheik will have a very hard time approaching. Get her off the ledge and the ledge guard as easy if you are less than 100%. I haven't played a sheik that techs d-smash like Amsah though so, that may be more difficult than I remember.

 

[Mogwai]

In response to Mogwai I agree with PP.

Watching my old vids vs Sheik and playing the match up again I'm realizing how the match is played. If sheik is up close, you have to shield, roll, etc. Play defensive. It's a contrast to every other match for Falco because normally when Falco is close you go bonkers with kicks and the pews and the blinks. This is what Shiz is talking about in regards to priority. Up close, sheik wins.

Falco attacks from long range vs Sheik. Blame M2K for coming along and making it a little harder to approach due to nair oos. You can still deal with that though (bait it with dash dance and punish with shuffle dair). Land a combo for about 40-60%. Land a few stray hits to build up another 15-20%. Get Sheik to that 80% range and start playing the f-tilt game a la Hugs with some bairs, and Sheik will have a very hard time approaching. Get her off the ledge and the ledge guard as easy if you are less than 100%. I haven't played a sheik that techs d-smash like Amsah though so, that may be more difficult than I remember.

Well, up very close, you win cause you have your blinky thingie that makes the entire smash community QQ over it's 1 frame hitbox. But I know what you're saying about when you're just outside of shine range, Sheik just wins and you have to cut your losses and gtfo of there.

Watching that dsmash tech stuff vs. Zhu was driving me nuts... At least the last 2 of them could've just been dtilts for kills off the top and at earlier %s, I think you're better off mixing up dairing and bairing sheik stage side once she's established that she knows how to tech your dsmash. (dair spike vs. in DI, re-ledge grab vs. other DI if you choose to dair, a la PC light shielding vs. Marth).

 

[iamthemicrowave]

CC shine shouldnt work because sheik can outspace falcos shine with fair, bair, nair...or am i missing something?

 

[null55]

i feel like a good thing to do against Sheik is always shoot lasers as low as ****ing possible. or at least at mid range where she thinks she can just run at you. i need to really start mastering this gun...

slight irrelevance: Sheik is top 3 or 4 in this game no doubt... ***** gets a grab and it's done. but like actually done.

 

[Shaeman111]

Really, I don't think any character is completely unfriendly towards the falco matchup. I don't play any character and don't slightly like the falco matchup.
As falco I just camp my *** off and aproach with nair and whatnot, but as soon as I lose control i usually die. Most of the time I just get shield grabbed to tech chased to ledgeguarded. When falco combos sheik, she does get quite ***** though. If it's played effectively, then falco will win IMO

Have you SEEN jigglypuff?!

 

[Mogwai]

CC shine shouldnt work because sheik can outspace falcos shine with fair, bair, nair...or am i missing something?

well, it just seems like people think I'd advocating sitting there crouching. The way I see it is that any time you're grounded and Sheik is in some way above you, having CC shine as an option makes her life infinitely more difficult.

Have you SEEN jigglypuff?!

I still think Falco should be able to beat jiggs by just shooting her and camping platforms... Not a fun matchup at all, but Jiggs has a hell of a time getting vertical hits in on people.

 

[forward]

Well, up very close, you win cause you have your blinky thingie that makes the entire smash community QQ over it's 1 frame hitbox. But I know what you're saying about when you're just outside of shine range, Sheik just wins and you have to cut your losses and gtfo of there.

Watching that dsmash tech stuff vs. Zhu was driving me nuts... At least the last 2 of them could've just been dtilts for kills off the top and at earlier %s, I think you're better off mixing up dairing and bairing sheik stage side once she's established that she knows how to tech your dsmash. (dair spike vs. in DI, re-ledge grab vs. other DI if you choose to dair, a la PC light shielding vs. Marth).

Shining sheik's shield is iffy imo. She can get into between shine > shuffle dair with a nair oos. You can counter nair oos with double shine. I need to play the match more to find out if that is worth the risk. Assuming that 50% of your double shines happen with you in the air, your only option out of it if they block both is a double jump. Can sheik punish that double jump? I'm not sure, it probably depends on your position relative to the platforms. Regardless, you still have a mind game to deal with if she blocks the shine, so I'd rather land my approach.

I'm assuming to tech the d smash you DI down and in. I'm sure there are a lot of ways to punish that. Sh nair or bair. Shuffle dair may send sheik just over the edge for a spike.

 

[Mogwai]

Shining sheik's shield is iffy imo. She can get into between shine > shuffle dair with a nair oos. You can counter nair oos with double shine. I need to play the match more to find out if that is worth the risk. Assuming that 50% of your double shines happen with you in the air, your only option out of it if they block both is a double jump. Can sheik punish that double jump? I'm not sure, it probably depends on your position relative to the platforms. Regardless, you still have a mind game to deal with if she blocks the shine, so I'd rather land my approach.

don't forget shine -> grab too. I wasn't specifically talking about shining their shield so much as just having a better move than her when you're in shine range, but while we're on the issue of shield pressure, I believe that even if you end up in the air after the double shine, Sheik has a hard time punishing double shine. If you're already airborne, you accelerate fast enough that she can't catch you with FH nair and would have to either uair or bair, both of which have a tricky time spacing vs. the DJ dair after an aerial double shine. And shine jc grab just wins vs. all her **** except for spot dodge which sheiks don't seem to do in the middle of shield pressure cause it sucks vs. other forms of shield pressure.

I'm assuming to tech the d smash you DI down and in. I'm sure there are a lot of ways to punish that. Sh nair or bair. Shuffle dair may send sheik just over the edge for a spike.

I don't think you get out of dsmash in time to do an aerial. I know at some smashfest Tec0 did that vs. me, and I'd just dsmash again, but in the zhu match, sheik was too far away for that and I think you could only maybe dash attack the ledge to catch her out of the tech at that spacing (which might not even lead to anything at the higher %s, but would probably lead to dair spike at the lower %s where you were seeing Amsah tech the dsmash).

But at like 120 or so on FD, dtilt will always kill Sheik off the top, so having a feel for when dtilt kills seems hugely useful as it is a free and guaranteed kill in a lot of edgeguard situations vs. Sheik's laggy recovery.

someone should do some research vs. full away DI on neutrals, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's probably around 100% to kill on YS and 135% to kill on DL64.

 

[BigD!!!]

yeah but you'll dj dair and i'll just wd back grab you

if for some reason i'm playing sheik

 

[Mogwai]

I'll only dair again behind you and I'd only do it if you jumped after me.

 

[forward]

Mogwai, I wasn't clear about Sheik teching the d smash. I was saying do all those moves instead of d smashing at all. Sheik is holding down and in expecting the d smash, and she gets hit with nair, then her DI is gonna be bad.

You speak as if it is hard for Sheik to punish Falco when he is directly or close to directly above her. That is not so, it is rather easy. I'm sure you could watch videos and find that many air-to-air contacts of the characters result in Sheik getting the hit. It also doesn't help Falco that unless he has a good 20% lead most trades will favor sheik more.

 

[Ballistics]

i think its safe to say always di away and just roll away from her jab attacks right? Rather than shield pressure, eh sean?

 

[forward]

Yea man, I'd say that's true about 90% of the time lol. There are times when I think it is better to DI her dash attack towards her, but the trajectory that move sends you seems random as hell to me.

 

[Mogwai]

Mogwai, I wasn't clear about Sheik teching the d smash. I was saying do all those moves instead of d smashing at all. Sheik is holding down and in expecting the d smash, and she gets hit with nair, then her DI is gonna be bad.

ah, ok. yea, I think punishing her up B is all about mix ups to catch her DIing for the wrong option and then just killing her with dtilt when it kills.

You speak as if it is hard for Sheik to punish Falco when he is directly or close to directly above her. That is not so, it is rather easy. I'm sure you could watch videos and find that many air-to-air contacts of the characters result in Sheik getting the hit. It also doesn't help Falco that unless he has a good 20% lead most trades will favor sheik more.

well, I agree that sheik's payoff is high for trading in those situations as they typically lead to a juggle or tech chase. But from what I observe, Sheik tends to only get the hits when Falco is a bit off to the side and she can trade with her fair/bair. I just think it's hard for Sheik to play uair vs. Falco's dair, but maybe I'm not watching the right Sheiks for this...

 

[unknown522]

you guys keep losing to sheik because you aren't shooting enough lasers at her and falling for simple tricks.

 

[null55]

Sheik's simple tricks work cause she's broken.

 

[unknown522]

I know, but some of these things are easily avoidable, especially if they just don't approach badly vs her. Falco has the power to beat out a lot of sheik's moves, and people don't take advantage of some of sheik's weaknesses that she has, like crappy air mobility.

I'm not even gonna lie. No disrespect intended to Amsah or anyone that may be mentioned, but he is in the air a lot vs spacies when he shouldn't be. There a lot of openings that people can take advantage of, but they don't (zhu being my biggest example). I don't think zhu had any idea of what he was supposed to do in that matchup. Simple things like shining when amsah was close to him/behind him at close range, he doesn't do. Instead he would roll, or sit in shield. He even sometimes blocked mis-spaced attacks and could've shined out of shield and done a minimum of 50% combo to amsah, but never did.

If I remember anything else, I will post it.

 

[Shaeman111]

Shine OOS ftw. Spaced nairs ftw. Lasers ftw. Combo ftw.
Or just main fox.

 

[forward]

I know, but some of these things are easily avoidable, especially if they just don't approach badly vs her. Falco has the power to beat out a lot of sheik's moves, and people don't take advantage of some of sheik's weaknesses that she has, like crappy air mobility.

I'm not even gonna lie. No disrespect intended to Amsah or anyone that may be mentioned, but he is in the air a lot vs spacies when he shouldn't be. There a lot of openings that people can take advantage of, but they don't (zhu being my biggest example). I don't think zhu had any idea of what he was supposed to do in that matchup. Simple things like shining when amsah was close to him/behind him at close range, he doesn't do. Instead he would roll, or sit in shield. He even sometimes blocked mis-spaced attacks and could've shined out of shield and done a minimum of 50% combo to amsah, but never did.

If I remember anything else, I will post it.

Missing opportunities is human error, unless you can point out some specific moments in the match and show that it was a consistent mistake on Zhu's part then you're wrong.

 

[unknown522]

Game 1

0:12 - roll into waiting sheik rather than laser to regain some control

0:29 - jabbing the shield

0:29 - running into sh nair oos without any backup

0:30 - roll into waiting sheik rather than laser to regain some control

0:30 - f-throw sheik onto edge... shine and many other moves would have been better

0:32 - dd --> shield ineffective against a character safe on shield and built on grabs -__- he should have kept lasering and forced her to approach awkwardly; he gave her a free opening. the dair for no reason was also dumb and gave amsah free time to move.

0:35 - after letting sheik get to her optimal spacing, rather than move back he stands in place with laser. and also refrains from shining and getting past her optimal spacing, which would have also been acceptable, since he was already there...

0:50 - buffer roll is stupid against sheik tech chase. shine is almost always better. sidestep > roll if they're dead set on regrabs.

0:53 - high bair on shield and trying to space it? no. you don't space shield pressure vs sheik. you make sure it's safe and you go from there. preferrably CLOSE because of unpunishable (easy) multishines.

0:57 - sheik's nair is easy to beat if you do almost any of falco's "up" moves. or cc --> free move on it. zhu jumps into it, instead...

1:17 - he keeps eating these f-tilts and not doing anything to punish after...

1:25 - failing easy edgeguard...

2:00 – why would you dash attack into sheik’s shield…?

Game2

He continuously does obvious n-air approach and gets f-tilted early in the match, when Amsah is just sitting there, or walking towards him. Halfway through the match, he finally realizes that it’s a bad idea and starts being more defencive.

He tries to pillar amsah’s shield a lot and gets n-air’d OoS for it. He doesn’t multi-shine.

In fairness, he ****ed up a lot of **** in this game, when he was making a good descision, but game 1, there were so many more noticeable things that he is doing poorly.

 

[forward]

Game 1

0:12 - roll into waiting sheik rather than laser to regain some control

You could see that he went for the roll before sheik f-tilted, but it didn't come out and that's why his shield is directed to the side. Had he rolled when he intended it would have been a good decision. His mistake was that he kept trying to roll after he messed up. One of the easiest ways to punish anyone in smash is when you seem them mess up a particular move, you can bet that 90% of the time they will go for it again.

0:29 - jabbing the shield

It was a well spaced jab and wasn't punished, that wasn't a mistake.

0:29 - running into sh nair oos without any backup

Good call by Amsah. Had Zhu done sh bair after running back he would have hit. They both took a risk and Amsah won.

0:30 - roll into waiting sheik rather than laser to regain some control

Zhu didn't want to risk that Amsah go for another f-tilt and trade laser with an f-tilt, that trade is not in Falco's favor. Yes, his decision was wrong, but it was a guess. There's no way to know whether he will go for another f-tilt or wait.

0:30 - f-throw sheik onto edge... shine and many other moves would have been better

I think that sh nair oos would have been a decent punish, but his shield dropped. That may have been a technical error. After the shield dropped he lost valuable time to punish so he went for the first thing that came to mind when the enemy is at f-tilt distance at low%, grab. The grab was a sound decision. Up throw may have been better than f throw though.

Since the only move you say would have been better was shine that's the only one I'll comment on. Running grab has more range than running shine. Zhu didn't want to risk that extra range.

0:32 - dd --> shield ineffective against a character safe on shield and built on grabs -__- he should have kept lasering and forced her to approach awkwardly; he gave her a free opening. the dair for no reason was also dumb and gave amsah free time to move.

I assume you meant that it is ineffective for Zhu to DD into a shield? Do you play Falco? That is a great tool for spacing your character, the shield stops the momentum of your dash so you when you shl you have more control of where you land.

The dair was unnecessary, I'll give you that. Maybe he thought Amsah would roll? I don't know, even that can be reacted to. Lasers would have been better here, you are right on this account.

0:35 - after letting sheik get to her optimal spacing, rather than move back he stands in place with laser. and also refrains from shining and getting past her optimal spacing, which would have also been acceptable, since he was already there...

Yea, bad laser spacing here, I agree. But I don't get what you are saying about shine, he wasn't close enough. IMO he should have WD back from that shield and ran away lasered.

0:50 - buffer roll is stupid against sheik tech chase. shine is almost always better. sidestep > roll if they're dead set on regrabs.

His roll worked out fine. Amsah was too far to justify going for a shine. Amsah could have d smash just outside of shines range and done serious damage. Zhu made the right choice.

0:53 - high bair on shield and trying to space it? no. you don't space shield pressure vs sheik. you make sure it's safe and you go from there. preferrably CLOSE because of unpunishable (easy) multishines.

I think there is a tech error in there. After he lands from nair you see him do an extra duck, probably a missed shine. I'm going to guess that Zhu panicked because of his error and he thought Amsah would see it and would try to punish him for it, therefor Zhu went for his quickest attack at that point to counter. Definitely ugly on Zhu's part.

0:57 - sheik's nair is easy to beat if you do almost any of falco's "up" moves. or cc --> free move on it. zhu jumps into it, instead...

I agree, wavedashing underneath and waiting with up tilt, cc, shield, or dodge all would have been better.

1:17 - he keeps eating these f-tilts and not doing anything to punish after...

I don't think he was TRYING to cc the f-tilt into a shield. The shield was probably what was intended to be an L cancel for a sh dair/nair. The low platform was messing him up. That wasn't so much an error due to Sheik but due to FoD.

1:25 - failing easy edgeguard...

No. Amsah got the quick explosion on stage which counter people standing from the ledge. It would have missed had Zhu rolled, but Zhu didn't want to roll because if Amsah went straight up from the up b he would have grabbed the ledge. He didn't miss an easy edgeguard, he missed a mind game.

2:00 – why would you dash attack into sheik’s shield…?

Because Amsah's shield wasn't up. Amsah wasn't sitting there in his shield for even half a second, it barely got up in time. For all we know Zhu may have intended a shuffle nair.

Game2

He continuously does obvious n-air approach and gets f-tilted early in the match, when Amsah is just sitting there, or walking towards him. Halfway through the match, he finally realizes that it’s a bad idea and starts being more defencive.

He tries to pillar amsah’s shield a lot and gets n-air’d OoS for it. He doesn’t multi-shine.

In fairness, he ****ed up a lot of **** in this game, when he was making a good descision, but game 1, there were so many more noticeable things that he is doing poorly.

You failed to point out where Amsah was in the air more than he should be. You originally said that Zhu missed a lot of shine opportunities, but you only pointed out 3 times and in none of those situations is it clear that teh shine is the best option. You also pointed out 0 times where Zhu blocked a misspaced attack that could have been punished with shine as you originally said. All of his rolls are sound decisions. Using two matches from the same tournament against the same player to say that Zhu doesn't know the match up is unjustified. All that can be said from this set is that Zhu didn't play it well this time.

 

[Charlesz]

Unknown just got d-aired by forward.

 

[ChivalRuse]

any low-mid % aerial approach gets shut down by CC shine.

Fairs have a lot of range. I don't think you can CC shine them.

 

[a nub]

someone should do some research vs. full away DI on neutrals, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's probably around 100% to kill on YS and 135% to kill on DL64.

So I was bored this afternoon. Dtilt kill%s on most of the legal stages, DI vs no DI obviously:

YS
Bottom: 117% / 103%
Mid platforms: 108% / 95%

FD
Bottom: 124% / 109%

BF
Bottom: 128% / 113%
Mid platforms: 119% / 105%

DL
Bottom: 141% / 127%
Mid platforms: 133% / 119%

._.

FoD
Bottom: 128% / 114%
Mid platforms: 121% / 109%

Obviously kill % varies on these platforms

PS
Bottom: 120% / 107%
Mid platforms: 111% / 99%

Trying to do the transformations made me wanna die so fack that. The platforms are mostly similar anyway.

Brinstar
Bottom: 131% / 116%
Side platforms: 126% / 108%

I tested on the right platform. Left one is a bit higher but w/e.

KJ64
Bottom: 137% / 121%
Side Platforms: 121% / 107%

So yeah, I need a life

 

[Shaeman111]

So I was bored this afternoon. Dtilt kill%s on most of the legal stages, DI vs no DI obviously:

YS
Bottom: 117% / 103%
Mid platforms: 108% / 95%

FD
Bottom: 124% / 109%

BF
Bottom: 128% / 113%
Mid platforms: 119% / 105%

DL
Bottom: 141% / 127%
Mid platforms: 133% / 119%

._.

FoD
Bottom: 128% / 114%
Mid platforms: 121% / 109%

Obviously kill % varies on these platforms

PS
Bottom: 120% / 107%
Mid platforms: 111% / 99%

Trying to do the transformations made me wanna die so fack that. The platforms are mostly similar anyway.

Brinstar
Bottom: 131% / 116%
Side platforms: 126% / 108%

I tested on the right platform. Left one is a bit higher but w/e.

KJ64
Bottom: 137% / 121%
Side Platforms: 121% / 107%

So yeah, I need a life

I love you. I'll use this for the rest of my life.