Does a lack of "true combos" hurt Brawl?

[OkamiBW]

The skill gap between doing well with the broken characters and winning with bad characters is so large that it makes for an incredibly frustrating and shallow experience.

NOOOOO! You're wrong. Brawl is frustrating and shallow for other reasons, too!

Brawl players, you guys should think of a new way to win the argument. Like just stop posting. That way you guys can be right in your mind and we can be right in our mind! Be the bigger man, cause once us Melee players get a hit on you guys, we just keep comboing!

 

[Strong Badam]

@ Strongbad
I'm speaking of how tenses runs high till you start your combo, then tenses run lower. A break in the level of tensity.

No. You still have to follow their DI, their tech options, and if it isn't a true combo and rather a string, make a read. The gameplay is tense throughout a combo.

No where in my post did I state that faster gameplay yielded an inherently deeper competitive game;

I find you did say this:

As he said you prety much implied faster game play yield better results.

As a person who was first board on a chess team at his high school, I am ashamed to see this being said.

Please stop trying to equate "more competitive depth" to "yielding better results". You can enjoy Brawl more than Melee and I can't say you're incorrect, because you most likely do, in fact, enjoy Brawl more than Melee. When it comes to competitive depth, however, you cannot hold on to such subjectivity.

And please, don't try to compare a 60 frame/second game with constant player interaction to a turn-based one. Melee's fun because it's fast and mentally stimulating and its mental stimulation comes from its speed. Chess if fun because it's turn-based and thinking-intensive, and its metal stimulation comes from the fact that you are able to think for great periods of time on each move (leading to calculating future moves, position analysis, etc.). Of course, Chess' competitive depth comes not only from turn based play but from a wide variety of aspects of the game ranging from piece development to pawn structure.

Grats bro. Next time I wanna play an 4 hour match I'll ask you all about your chess team experiences.

disappointed in this response

 

[Sliq]

Whatever.



Spamming tornado is gonna get you killed by anyone who knows their character, Lucario has 7 different ways he can beat it out, I can reasonably expect the mains to do well.

Snake can camp, how is this different from Fox, Falco, and Sheik in Melee, Fox laser camps Peach to make he approach, Falco camps lasers on Falcon to shut down his movement, Sheik camps needles on low tiers so she can get a grab. So?

Easy to learn in no excuse, there are low tiers in melee were are technical as well but they suck so no one learns them.

Your not arguing technicality, more so that Brawl has a tier list and no one cares because every game has one.



Well someone is salty.

Well if you want to call Brawl and it's players ****, whatever you can live in that delusional world and insult a community. I'll live in the one where I go to tournaments, have a good time, be respectful, and enjoy my game instead of trying to judge it and it's players.

If Brawl is worse than MvC3 or something objectively, I don't care. I play games for subjective reasons and pick up characters for mostly subjective reasons so I'll continue doing what I'm doing and enjoy it.

And that's all that matters to me at this point, since talking about it just results in crap like this.

So can we finally agree that Brawl players are stupid, but they enjoy being stupid so our opinions don't matter? Because if we could get that out of the way I could finally unplug my internet.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So can we finally agree that Brawl players are stupid, but they enjoy being stupid so our opinions don't matter? Because if we could get that out of the way I could finally unplug my internet.

No, that I can't agree with.

Ther are smart people I play against and people who I love to play against no matter how bad or good I am.

Stupidity will always exist, I know that most of the people in my region are not.

So sorry I cannot agree with this.

 

[TurnOneWrath]

Brawl players, you guys should think of a new way to win the argument. Like just stop posting. That way you guys can be right in your mind and we can be right in our mind! Be the bigger man, cause once us Melee players get a hit on you guys, we just keep comboing!

I'm a Brawl player, and I came to this site when I wanted to play at a higher level. I played Melee back in college, but I didn't play on a high level; rather simply against Whoever Walked Into My Room.
After learning the "deeper" aspects of Brawl and hearing all this about how Melee is superior when it comes to depth (this thread was here since the day I joined and was the first one I came to), me and a friend decided to break out his old copy of Melee and give it a whirl.

After looking at Brawl for so long, Melee looked dated as s***, but I was rather surprised at how good it felt. Frankly, it was awesome. It just felt like a better game technically, and I could control my character in a manner that I wish I could in Brawl, except in Brawl there was some invisible barrier that was holding me back (aside from just simply tripping).

I see what the Melee players are saying, even without playing on a high level. If I was to somehow do so, I would likely take that side. As is, though, it's too little too late, so I just have to be a Brawl player that doesn't vehemently and blindly scream how Brawl is automatically better for whatever reason.

 

[Juice Box]

I guess on a more professional scale Melee has the edge due to the high skills needed and the faster speed it's at, but in brawl's case it's more about patience. I'd say neither is better: it's all based on opinion.

 

[BSP]

What ever happened to play what you like? All these insults getting thrown around is pointless imo.

If you really hate brawl that much, just don't play it, seriously. The people that do like don't care if you complain about it or not.

 

[kingofkings97]

I think it depends on if you you like fast gamplay and a lot of combos like melee or if you like the slow pased one combo gamplay like brawl.

 

[_MidnighT_]

I quit smash when I realized that "fighting games" with 8 minute timers are ********. Though I say that, I can respect melee as a competitive game, it's just not for me anymore. Brawl, though... play something else. As much as people love to talk about its competitive viability, it's a terribly shallow game. It requires no technical/executional ability whatsoever. Don't even worry about frame data, brawl players. No need. diddy banana set-ups and all of the other nonsense red ryu posted? lol. *sigh* /rant

 

[Ragae]

@ Strongbad

Tenses run lower, to break down what I mean - once I get a hit I know their options of response are limited, they're more vulnerable now. This vulnerability allows for some guess work along with fast reactions, I excel at both of those. With this in mind am I tensed? No.

Your second bit doesn't change what I originally said about the subject. "how slow even top-level gameplay is." still haunts your position. Speaking of slow gameplay and not slow thinking speed, both of which on their own do not make a game less deep.

@ Sliq

Post 559, final two paragraphs. Quick rundown - I find SSBB to be a good game, I play other games aswell, I'm not saying SSBB is far superior than everything else I've played. It has it's own place and serves it's own function, which I make use of. Most importantly however, beating someone in brawl is not easy unless it's someone new to the game or someone who cannot adjust. You cannot run over your opponents with priority for a quick three stock nor camp them with unbeatable defenses til 8mins are up. The easiest opponents are those who think this and give up mid match. Against everyone else don't choke, you can lose to a low tier as MK/Snake/Diddy and get humbled. Until you play brawl competitively and run high tier yourself you'll think high tier has it stress-less and easy when you see all the cool stuff they can do.

 

[Life]

I am a Brawl player who respects Melee. I occasionally post on Melee threads because I camp the New Post button and see stuff.

I see Melee players go out of their way all the time to talk about how terrible Brawl is (see MLG). I cannot remember the last time a Brawl player went out of his/her way to talk about how terrible Melee is. Reminds me of http://xkcd.com/186/ . I don't think all (or even most) Melee players are trolls, nor do I think Brawl has no trolls, but I do think Melee players troll Brawl players far more than the reverse.

Midnight. You complained about how Brawl isn't deep because it has no techskill. That's not how it works. (And PSNL, which you mentioned, certainly qualifies as techskill.)

Depth is decisions, which Brawl certainly has. That doesn't mean a game that isn't deep can't be competitive (Guitar Hero, here's looking at you). But Smash (both games, mind you) is far deeper than pretty much every other game in existence. I won't say techskill is irrelevant to competitiveness (again with Guitar Hero), but it doesn't really relate to depth.

(Tangent: define techskill? I'd say "physical ability to translate mental decisions into in-game actions". That might conflict with the Guitar Hero thing slightly, but I think it works out.)

The point is, Brawl vs. Melee is stupid, as both games are ridiculously good (that doesn't mean you have to like Brawl--that's another thing that needs to be defined, what makes a game "good").

tl;dr Kiss and make up?

 

[Djent]

There's no point in arguing with Brawl players who are emotionally invested against being persuaded their game is lame. But I doubt any of the Melee players here will realize that, because they're all too busy being emotionally invested in the argument. Hence why this thread sucks now and hasn't accomplished any meaningful discussion in a long time. But hey, if you guys feel like continuing the Battle of the Butthurt until SSB4, then be my guest.

 

[Strong Badam]

There was never any meaningful discussion from the Brawl side.

 

[Djent]

There was never any meaningful discussion from the Brawl side.

Which is kind of funny, because it's typically not worth arguing with people who can't hold such a discussion. But people have kept on trying for the last 39 pages anyway, hence this abomination of a thread.

 

[_MidnighT_]

@inferiority complex. In my post I wasn't even referring to brawl vs melee. Do you REALLY need technicality in a fighting game to be defined? Decision making does not make a game deep. A fighting game is OBVIOUSLY going to be centered around decision making (not that i would call brawl a fighting game). Defense in brawl is retardedly simple (and melee, too, really). Blocking in smash requires no thought in regard to your opponent's action other than "oh, I guess I'll shield grab that." In fighting games, not high blocking that overhead during a pressure string is going to have you eating damage + dealing with oki (oki is wakeup pressure game). You say that both brawl and melee are ridiculously good, but have you ever even played other fighters competitively? by competitively, i mean going to tournaments and actually placing at least DECENTLY.

 

[GHNeko]

WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL GOING. IT'S BEEN LIKE 4 MONTHS kajsd;fklsjdf;sdfasjfsfkjas;df

 

[Life]

@inferiority complex. In my post I wasn't even referring to brawl vs melee.

I quit smash when I realized that "fighting games" with 8 minute timers are ********. Though I say that, I can respect melee as a competitive game, it's just not for me anymore. Brawl, though... play something else. As much as people love to talk about its competitive viability, it's a terribly shallow game. It requires no technical/executional ability whatsoever. Don't even worry about frame data, brawl players. No need. diddy banana set-ups and all of the other nonsense red ryu posted? lol. *sigh* /rant

Mhm.

Do you REALLY need technicality in a fighting game to be defined? Decision making does not make a game deep.

Then what does?

A fighting game is OBVIOUSLY going to be centered around decision making (not that i would call brawl a fighting game).

If Brawl is not a fighting game, then what is? (inb4 semantics. Deal with it.)

Defense in brawl is retardedly simple (and melee, too, really). Blocking in smash requires no thought in regard to your opponent's action other than "oh, I guess I'll shield grab that."

Not everything can be shieldgrabbed. Also, DI.

In fighting games, not high blocking that overhead during a pressure string is going to have you eating damage + dealing with oki (oki is wakeup pressure game).

Shield pokes. Granted, the system is less important, but it is still there. (I'll concede the point otherwise.)

You say that both brawl and melee are ridiculously good, but have you ever even played other fighters competitively? by competitively, i mean going to tournaments and actually placing at least DECENTLY.

Nope--heck, I'm not even that good at Smash--but I don't really have to (if you don't understand why, look up Appeal to Authority). No other fighting game I'm aware of (that's taken seriously, at least) has DI (and if one does, kindly direct me to it so I can start playing). Once you start a combo, it's all muscle memory from there. With Melee at least (Brawl barely has combos as is the point of the thread) you have to watch your opponent's DI and react to it, leading to much more varied combos, and eventually your opponent has an opportunity to escape given that they've DI'd correctly. This mechanic alone makes Smash quite good and is Smash's answer to high-medium-low systems. Now throw in a wide variety of stages (granted, not all are competitively sound, but what is there is more than a 2D box) and the KB growth as your opponent takes damage (and probably some other stuff I'm not thinking of because it's 11:30 at night)--tell me again which fighters are better than Smash? Only things I can think of from the top of my head that other fighters generally have are a better-balanced cast and a more-mature community as this thread evidences--and I will concede those--but I don't find them enough to tip any scales.

Also, if you don't like Smash any more, I'm curious why you remain here.

BTW, don't take this post personally.

 

[Big-Cat]

DI, as I've said several times, is a glorified air tech which you can find in games like BlazBlue. I know that people argue that DI is so nice because you aren't guaranteed to be stuck in a combo until its over. I'll concede to that, but there's a problem with not having a guaranteed combo: You lack that comeback effect from a guaranteed combo. Instead of punishing on mistake, you have to punish several mistakes.

IMO, DI adds too much depth in the game in the wrong place.

 

[shawz]

personally i think it boils down to the fact that i'd rather watch 3 minute 4 stock games then 6 minute 3 stock games

 

[Sliq]

I see Melee players go out of their way all the time to talk about how terrible Brawl is (see MLG). I cannot remember the last time a Brawl player went out of his/her way to talk about how terrible Melee is.

It's hard for Brawl players to talk about how terrible Melee is because 1.) it is not terrible and 2.) they have never played melee competitively, so how would they know?

Also, A LOT of Brawl players like to imply the Melee is simply mashing buttons and automatic combos, and less thinking (my personal favorite).

 

[Clel]

Aren't Melee players are the same way though? Implying that Brawl is no tech skill, luck based, shallow
Aren't you melee players not competitive brawl players?

I don't know why you guys are acting like it's such a difficult argument that you gotta go to personal attacks. It shouldn't be so hard to explain that a shallow trip ridden game like brawl is terrible. Where's the major points?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There was never any meaningful discussion from the Brawl side.

You yourself went toward personal attacks, baiting flames, dodging questions and outright lying about facts in the Sakurai interview thread.

DI, as I've said several times, is a glorified air tech which you can find in games like BlazBlue. I know that people argue that DI is so nice because you aren't guaranteed to be stuck in a combo until its over. I'll concede to that, but there's a problem with not having a guaranteed combo: You lack that comeback effect from a guaranteed combo. Instead of punishing on mistake, you have to punish several mistakes.

IMO, DI adds too much depth in the game in the wrong place.

As long as it is not near randomness where there are far too many options, it's fine. I don't think DI ever reached that point in any of the smash games.

It's hard for Brawl players to talk about how terrible Melee is because 1.) it is not terrible and 2.) they have never played melee competitively, so how would they know?

Also, A LOT of Brawl players like to imply the Melee is simply mashing buttons and automatic combos, and less thinking (my personal favorite).

Good thing I play both.

Honestly I don't think any of the smash games are bad, I just prefer some for specific reasons.

Aren't Melee players are the same way though? Implying that Brawl is no tech skill, luck based, shallow
Aren't you melee players not competitive brawl players?

I don't know why you guys are acting like it's such a difficult argument that you gotta go to personal attacks. It shouldn't be so hard to explain that a shallow trip ridden game like brawl is terrible. Where's the major points?

I love this post.

It sums up my own thoughts.

 

[MonkUnit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGBbh5r8

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGBbh5r8

Meh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG1DLooq3Pc

 

[MonkUnit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGBbh5r8

Meh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG1DLooq3Pc

Too bad that brawl can't ever be this fast.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Too bad that brawl can't ever be this fast.

Sometimes, i dunno.

Still I wanna do what that Peach did and Power shield all those lasers into a nair, a dream come true.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Powershield->jump->float->land->powershield again x10bajillion.

So sexy

 

[SmashChu]

There's no point in arguing with Brawl players who are emotionally invested against being persuaded their game is lame. But I doubt any of the Melee players here will realize that, because they're all too busy being emotionally invested in the argument. Hence why this thread sucks now and hasn't accomplished any meaningful discussion in a long time. But hey, if you guys feel like continuing the Battle of the Butthurt until SSB4, then be my guest.

There was never any meaningful discussion from the Brawl side.

Which is kind of funny, because it's typically not worth arguing with people who can't hold such a discussion. But people have kept on trying for the last 39 pages anyway, hence this abomination of a thread.

It's hard for Brawl players to talk about how terrible Melee is because 1.) it is not terrible and 2.) they have never played melee competitively, so how would they know?

Also, A LOT of Brawl players like to imply the Melee is simply mashing buttons and automatic combos, and less thinking (my personal favorite).

This reads like

OMG, Brawl people don't understand how awesome Melee is. I'm going to stroke my ego by posting in a Brawl thread about how awesome Melee is. Too bad Brawl can't be Melee right?

Haha ya, there is no way they can say Brawl is better

Yeah. Totally due! I'm just SO cool that I can say these little Brawl guys waster 39 pages and Melee is still totally rad

They don't have anything on Melee

1. It's Melee. DUH
2. They're losers for not playing Melee
3. IT'S MELEE. DUH

They think it's a button masher. They just can't get it because they play Brawl. Dur hur hur.

In recent news: it's a videogame. Whether or not you like one or the other is a matter of opinion and which one is better is also a matter of opinion. Otherwise, no one else cares nor does it matter.

 

[Sliq]

Good thing I play both.

I have never heard of you for either game, so kudos. Also, you are the VAST MINORITY when it comes to Brawl players.

In recent news: it's a videogame. Whether or not you like one or the other is a matter of opinion and which one is better is also a matter of opinion. Otherwise, no one else cares nor does it matter.

You see, there is such a thing as an unsupported opinion. I know because I learned it in 8th grade English class.

It's hard to respect someone's opinion when it comes from someone who is ignorant/misinformed.

This lack of respect usually leads to disrespect, which leads to indignation from Brawl players. The inverse also happens, with Brawl players being disrespectful/stupid and pissing me off.

The only difference is I'm well versed in both games, and probably better than them at both of them, as well.

*listens to "You're the Best" by Joe Esposito*

 

[JeKartaN1]

There is plenty wrong with Brawl but the lack of combos, in my eyes, is not a problem. It makes it harder to KO which means you have to try different tactics instead of constantly attacking. While Melee fans probably hate the lack of combos in Brawl I don't have a problem with it.

 

[Deleted member]

Too bad that brawl can't ever be this fast.

not that it matters. i already flamed acryte for making such a stupid video.

on a side note, i notice a lot of people that defend any specific entity with some reference to "my opinion" is probably defending something lame and needs some irrefutable way to defend it. What better irrefutable substance that something outside of the domain of logical debate?

No one defends good things with his/her opinion.

 

[SmashChu]

You see, there is such a thing as an unsupported opinion. I know because I learned it in 8th grade English class.

No, there isn't because it's an OPINION.

a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

So what, you can't respect my opinion that I like Vanilla ice cream. Am I arrogant and misinformed for liking Vanilla. I must be so ignorant.

Again, no one cares if you don't like Brawl. My question is why are you still posting on the Brawl boards.

 

[Deleted member]

No, there isn't because it's an OPINION.

I reiterate. That took about 2 minutes.

 

[King Funk]

When you insult the Brawl community with ignorant claims, it's hard not to expect ignorant claims from the other side on Melee. =S

Whatever, I play all three smash games and love everyone. <3

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I have never heard of you for either game, so kudos. Also, you are the VAST MINORITY when it comes to Brawl players.

WI smash does not exist.

IL does though. ^_^

When you insult the Brawl community with ignorant claims, it's hard not to expect ignorant claims from the other side on Melee. =S

Whatever, I play all three smash games and love everyone. <3

Exactly what I will do.

 

[R00R]

Personally I think some bigger problem with brawl that I haven't seen mentioned is a lack of Shield Stun, and extremely overpowered spot dodges.

To many safe defensive option, and not nearly enough offensive options.

On the other hand Melee is perfect in every aspect.

Im not bias at all...

 

[OkamiBW]

There is plenty wrong with Brawl but the lack of combos, in my eyes, is not a problem. It makes it harder to KO which means you have to try different tactics instead of constantly attacking. While Melee fans probably hate the lack of combos in Brawl I don't have a problem with it.

This isn't just directed at him, but would you guys mind stating WHAT different tactics (or other things of any sort) you're talking about?

It's like saying, I like eating excrement better than sushi because it has other things in it. Not that I'm comparing Brawl to excrement...it's more like...diluted urine

Spoiler

that has OTHER THINGS in it, which make it better than normal excrement

.

Spoiler

P.S. Brawl is deeper than Melee cause you can swim in it! Duh.

 

[King Funk]

This isn't just directed at him, but would you guys mind stating WHAT different tactics (or other things of any sort) you're talking about?

It's like saying, I like eating excrement better than sushi because it has other things in it. Not that I'm comparing Brawl to excrement...it's more like...diluted urine

Spoiler

that has OTHER THINGS in it, which make it better than normal excrement

.

Spoiler

P.S. Brawl is deeper than Melee cause you can swim in it! Duh.

You're having the time of your life.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I do like the larger cast except MK cause he is mad homo.

 

[Scufo]

Aren't Melee players are the same way though? Implying that Brawl is no tech skill, luck based, shallow
Aren't you melee players not competitive brawl players?

I don't know why you guys are acting like it's such a difficult argument that you gotta go to personal attacks. It shouldn't be so hard to explain that a shallow trip ridden game like brawl is terrible. Where's the major points?

Many, if not most Melee players played quite a bit of Brawl when it first came out, due to the insane amount of hype associated with it. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Melee player who doesn't own, or at one point owned, a copy of Brawl.

It's safe to say that most Melee players have rejected Brawl due to their own experiences with it. You can't say the same about Brawl players; many of them have not played Melee at all, and most have not played Melee at a competitive level.