Dodges, Rolls and ADes

[The Cape]

As we all know these are all extremely overpowered, I would like to see a small nerf made to them as a whole to make them a bit more punishable.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225510

Using the data in this thread you can see how long the dodges last and the invulnerability frames.

My suggestion is to add 2 frames of vulnerability to the beginning and end of each dodge (using frame speed slow down) and then removing four frames from the center of them to keep their regular duration overall (frame speed up).

What do you all think?

 

[kupo15]

I actually thought about this also. I think the air dodge needs more nerfing than frames and if we do this, we shouldn't bother with the frames for ADs. Here are my suggested ADing nerfs:

Landing lag
1 air dodge
Low gravity

The most important nerf to me is the lower gravity. Because we upped gravity, FFed ADes can get you from the top of the stage to the stage while untouchable which is pretty broken. Making air dodging lower gravity as in, lower than 1, will make the untouchable distance roughly equal to melee's while still keeping it a brawl air dodge.

I'm sure that we all agree on giving it landing lag if possible. Here is my best idea for implementing this. Trick the game into thinking that you are landing from a certain aerial instead of an air dodge. The landing lag will come from the ALR of the move. This is the best substitute I can think of without hindering other animations that can't be changed for the game.

The single air dodge would be the last thing to consider before these other two and esp the lower gravity

 

[The Cape]

I like the landing lag and low gravity ideas. The one dodge is basically superfluous as you can rarely AD more than once as is, however its a good option to have.

 

[leafgreen386]

Loving the low grav idea. It actually isn't really a nerf of the AD. It just... changes it. While it's more punishable onstage, it becomes more effective offstage, allowing you to use hit higher up.

Not a big fan of making its lag an aerial's lag, though, nor do I see the single AD being necessary. If we give it landlag, I say we just make it a slowed down "hard landing."

 

[kupo15]

I like the landing lag and low gravity ideas. The one dodge is basically superfluous as you can rarely AD more than once as is, however its a good option to have.

But if we make it so that the gravity is lower, then you would be able to air dodge more than once. But the first change I would like to see is the gravity change and see how it goes from their. Also, I remember kishes bringing this up a while back, but maybe we can make shield drop lag slightly more. This will help to discourage shield camping and make you truely afraid to shield a little more and is something I think is worth a shot. It would only take one line with the frame speed mod as well.

Just in case, here is SDMs melee frame data on rolls
http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/Frames_-_Roll.xls

Air dodges
http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/Frames_-_Air_Dodge.xls

Side steps
http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/Frames_-_Ground_Dodge.xls

From a quick glance, there is more invincibility in brawl over melee at least for spot dodges.

So looking at mario's difference, so brawl has 2 frames less punishment after the dodge and 5 frames less punishment during

Air dodging seems to have been very consistent between the two games and so does rolls

EDIT: Oh wow, it seems like spot dodges are the culprit here. Check these out.

X-XX/YY
Invinc frames/Total

Mario/Luigi/Yoshi/Falco/Fox/Kirby/samus/sheik/link/pika
brawl 2-20/25
Melee 2-15/22

5 more invinc frames/2 less wind down punishment

Falcon/Zelda
Brawl 2-20/25
Melee 3-20/32

1 more invinc frame/ 7 less wind down punishment

Ganon
Brawl 2-20/25
Melee 2-20/32

Same invince/ 7 less wind down punishment

Bowser
Brawl 3-24/32
Melee 4-24/42

1 more invince/ 10 less wind down punishment

Peach/ICers/Ness/Marth
Brawl 2-20/25 (marth 24)
Melee 2-18/27

2 more invince/ 4 less wind down punishment

DK
Brawl 2-23/30
Melee 2-23/37

Same invinc/ 7 less punishment

Puff
Brawl 3-16/25
Melee 2-15/27

Same invinc/ 2 less punishment

GAW
Brawl 2-20/25
Melee 2-12/32

7 more invince/ 15 less punishment

It looks like the cool down lag is the biggest problem.

 

[Almas]

The current grav code would cause people to have the multiplier for grav after the airdodge is complete until they performed another action.

Adding landing lag to airdodges will cause projectile users to become a lot more powerful, as the PS approach that many characters used is now also less viable.

 

[Revven]

But if we make it so that the gravity is lower, then you would be able to air dodge more than once. But the first change I would like to see is the gravity change and see how it goes from their. Also, I remember kishes bringing this up a while back, but maybe we can make shield drop lag slightly more. This will help to discourage shield camping and make you truely afraid to shield a little more and is something I think is worth a shot. It would only take one line with the frame speed mod as well.

If we add lag to shield drop, this nerfs the DD during shield a fair amount (which I think is good) as well as the shield cancel approaches (not that those weren't nerfed already). Furthermore, with shield drop lag, we can lower shieldstun more for more than one other reason (check the thread I made).

Adding landing lag to airdodges will cause projectile users to become a lot more powerful, as the PS approach that many characters used is now also less viable.

Yes, this is the MAIN problem I see with adding landing lag to the air dodge. It ruins the SHAD approach and a lot of people (myself included) use it a lot to get inside characters like Falco. I also use it with Wario a lot for mind games and such. Don't add landing lag to the AD unless we can somehow still use SHADing as a defense against Falco's lasers or Wolf's blasters (just two examples).

 

[shanus]

As Almas said, you'd need PS reflect to compensate

 

[kupo15]

Jesus Christ, it's like Sakurai decided that their side steps were too hard to use in Melee. I don't think we should replicate their cool downs from Melee but, find a medium where they are still useful as a defense and can still be punished. Sound good?

Also, look at Wario's side step. That **** is monstrous!


.

Yes, that would be fine seeing how we don't have melee data for the brawl cast lol.

As Almas said, you'd need PS reflect to compensate

I'm all up for that!

So are we all in agreeance with these three changes?

Air dodging gravity
Longer shield drop
Side step nerf
(PS reflect)

 

[Revven]

PS Reflect, I think you're going to need to make the PS different for physical and projectile attacks now like in Melee. Reduce the frames for projectile reflecting to 1 frame but, physical attacks to 2 frames.

Sound good?

 

[kupo15]

sure. hopefully its possible

 

[The Cape]

Why are we making powersheild reflect when we still need damage staling and meteor cancelling?

 

[kupo15]

Why are we making powersheild reflect when we still need damage staling and meteor cancelling?

True. Those should be the first priority.

I did some frame data for shield drop lag for both games:

Melee 14 frames
Brawl 8 frames

 

[ShortFuse]

I really don't have any complaints about rolls or ADs but the side step is too annoying. In vBrawl I stopped using Marth's fSmash because it can be sidestepped and punished before I can even recover from fSmash. It leaves me too vulnerable. I just fB instead.

It's funny how in Melee, fB made your more vulnerable and now it's fSmash.

 

[kupo15]

so I tried slowing the shield drop animation down but you could still get out at the same time despite the animation being longer.

 

[The Cape]

Sidestep needs a fix, bit more lag

AD should have lower grav as it makes it better overall.

And thats really it, I think its good from there. The sheild options are really nice and facilitate approach as well as defense as the rest of the defensive options are already really good, approach could become really hard without good sheild rushing.

 

[kupo15]

Alright, I guess we can take it slow and see how things play out with these two changes. So what are we going to do with the side step lag? Universal and by how much? Universal seems a bit homogenized but the problem would be how to adjust the brawl cast. I say we start out with 4 frames. We are going to need 4 lines to do this since there are 4 different times where invinc wears off

That would be 0.86206896551724137931034482758621 in hex float I believe or 3F5CB08D

So here would be the lines

2510001E 3F5CB08D
0117001E 3F5CB08D
0B18001E 3F5CB08D
FF14001E 3F5CB08D

 

[The Cape]

Try my idea on the first post.

+2 on the front and back
-4 in the middle

To make them a bit more hitable and same duration that they currently are. I dont like making them all the same.

 

[kupo15]

Well, I don't think making it come out slower is a good solution. I will agree with 2 less invincible at the end though.

What if we do 2 less invinc and 4 more lag?

You do realize that your complicated approach is actually just making the invince start 2 frames later and you are adding 2 frames of lag and in doing so are wasting 1 line. If I am reading that correctly of course!

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm all for making sidestepping a little less potent and if I understand Kupo right we want to try 4 more frames of lag on the end and 2 less invincibility on all sidesteps? Seems fair to me. I want them to still be more powerful, just not so spammable. I feel dirty when I **** a sidestep up and just do another one right away to cover my ***.

Air dodges are fine, I'd really, really, REALLY rather we don't mess with them. Same with rolls.

 

[Revven]

Rolls a bit stupid though. They aren't real brainless to punish, someone can just keep rolling around and you'll never really hit them when punishing them should be completely brainless but because of their invinc frames, you can't punish most rolls.

 

[goodoldganon]

Rolls a bit stupid though. They aren't real brainless to punish, someone can just keep rolling around and you'll never really hit them when punishing them should be completely brainless but because of their invinc frames, you can't punish most rolls.

Which ones in particular? Sure they are a whole lot more powerful then ever before, but I don't mind that. I'd argue if we made rolls have less invincibility we'd have to speed them up to compensate. I'd still rather not cause I think they are fine. I have no problems punishing rolls with the Wizard Foot. Once again, I think it becomes a problem when you combine it with the spot dodge. Think we can add a few frames after you do a roll where you can't spot dodge?

 

[kupo15]

I don't think we need to touch air dodges or rolls. The frame data is pretty consistent and if we make gravity air dodges, that should take care of making it more punishable. If you have a trouble with rolls, then speed up dashing like I did in my set.

This should work. The first group adds 4 frames of lag, the second ground shortens the entire side step by 2 frames

2510001E 3F5CB08D
0117001E 3F5CB08D
0B18001E 3F5CB08D
FF14001E 3F5CB08D


1903001E 3F911111
2503001E 3F9745D1
0102001E 3F8D7943
0B03001E 3F8D7943
FF02001E 3F900000

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't think we need to touch air dodges or rolls. The frame data is pretty consistent and if we make gravity air dodges, that should take care of making it more punishable. If you have a trouble with rolls, then speed up dashing like I did in my set.

This should work. The first group adds 4 frames of lag, the second ground shortens the entire side step by 2 frames

2510001E 3F5CB08D
0117001E 3F5CB08D
0B18001E 3F5CB08D
FF14001E 3F5CB08D


1903001E 3F911111
2503001E 3F9745D1
0102001E 3F8D7943
0B03001E 3F8D7943
FF02001E 3F900000

Is that universally?

 

[kupo15]

Half and half. Jiggs, oli, dk, and bowser have different stats but everyone else is exactly the same. So its much more universal and homogenized than melee. I would like it to be more unique like melee though...

 

[Revven]

Well, they need to be still useful but not as bad as they were in Melee (at least IIRC, a lot of the sidesteps in Melee were simply terrible options and were easily punished). I'd like to see the balance I mentioned above. It would be better if we tackled each character's side step and look at them as a character and see if they need a side step tweak or not. I know DK and Bowser both have pretty bad and punishable side steps and as such, should be left alone but someone like Wario or Mario or Falcon have really good side steps and as characters, themselves, are pretty good as is.

What do you think?

Example case: Bowser is a tank, a defensive character. Say his side step is so bad that it's unusable while someone like Falcon's is way better and Falcon is an offensive character. Change Bowser's to fit his more tank style but, change Falcon's to make it so he doesn't have as powerful defense options as someone like Bowser does.

That example isn't TRUE, just an example of what I am talking about or getting at.

 

[kupo15]

****! Just like shield drop, you can react before the animation is over. So this basically made side steps better...

We need someone to look and see why this happens. Maybe it has IASA

Ok. About the air dodge nerf. I think that if we lower gravity, we would also have to limit it to 1 or else it will buff recoveries. Imagine if you are pit. You can jump air dodge 4 times at gravity that is less than 1 which means you can kinda float your way back to the stage. Even if you only have one jump, people could still use air dodging right away to float back a little. Limiting it to 1 air dodge will make it so that you chose recovery or evasion...not both

 

[goodoldganon]

-All air dodges had invuln time cut in half to encourage more precise use of it (peach was made even with everyone else)

That seems like a pretty hefty nerf to air dodges. I'd have to mess with it more, but that seems like a little too much. No offense, but I'd rather not make half ***** fixes to core game issues (like we did with hitlag that one time) and instead wait till we have our real fix.

Which, if anyone wanted to know, here is my dream air dodge system.

-After exiting hitstun it takes 3 extra frames to air dodge. This promotes wiggling for the fastest air dodge or makes jumping/attacking out of tumble more favorable. But, unlike NADT, it doesn't completely remove the option. I would really like that after being out of hitstun for (random number here) 15 frames the air dodge activated on time if you were still in tumble (no 3 frame delay)

-Air dodging returns you to your normal fall speed. Though I don't think air dodging is as bad as people make it out to be my only major complaint is fast falling the air dodging. You can basically fall the entire distance invulnerable.

That's it. Those are my two changes I'd make to the whole system. I think cutting their invincibility time in half is a stupid solution to the problem, especially because their length isn't what was causing them to be so powerful.

 

[shanus]

Yeroc made it last night, I just tossed it in to test it out.

I want the new code, but I don't know when we can get it.

 

[Revven]

I want the new code, but I don't know when we can get it.

This. We've lost spunit (temporarily) and PW (also temporarily), there's really no one I imagine who could do it other than Almas (and that's if he even has the time to). I want to test this AD stuff out soon.

 

[kupo15]

-After exiting hitstun it takes 3 extra frames to air dodge. This promotes wiggling for the fastest air dodge or makes jumping/attacking out of tumble more favorable.

I don't think this would be enough because its impossible to wiggle air dodge in 1 (and two) frame meaning that 1 frame isn't a big enough reward to wiggle

But, unlike NADT, it doesn't completely remove the option.

You have been listening to shanus too much lol. It doesn't remove the option at all. IDK where you get this idea from

-Air dodging returns you to your normal fall speed. Though I don't think air dodging is as bad as people make it out to be my only major complaint is fast falling the air dodging. You can basically fall the entire distance invulnerable.

That's it. Those are my two changes I'd make to the whole system. I think cutting their invincibility time in half is a stupid solution to the problem, especially because their length isn't what was causing them to be so powerful.

Normal fall speed still isnt enough seeing how half the cast at least doesn't have any dgrav and this is still too much distance to fall with. I think everyone should fall at around .7 as a starting point. The downward distance should be roughly close to melee's distance IMO. And because of lowered gravity, it should be limited to 1 air dodge or else you will have the problem of super recoveries. It should either help recoveries or save it for defense, not both

This. We've lost spunit (temporarily) and PW (also temporarily), there's really no one I imagine who could do it other than Almas (and that's if he even has the time to). I want to test this AD stuff out soon.

Yea, I really want to try this out soon also. I hope that FF speed is lost when you air dodge as well

 

[leafgreen386]

We don't need to restrict usage of the airdodge at all, at least in terms of how many times you can do it. Here's what I think we should do with the airdodge:

- If executed in tumble, there are three frames of additional startup lag.
- If executed while falling, dgrav set to x, which is some fractional value.
- If executed while falling, horizontal momentum is stopped.
- If executed while rising, acts as normal.

Note the bold part. We can stop this from being used as a recovery tool very easily. I also just realized that with the fourth provision that SHAD would still be very viable, which is cool. I'm actually not sure if the first provision would even be necessary with the second and third ones.

 

[Revven]

leaf, Yoshi NEEDS to use it as a recovery right now and so do other rising aerial characters. A nerf to his recovery is baaaaddd unless his recovery gets fixed (which it partially will with Paprika's code). Just thought I would mention this.

 

[leafgreen386]

leaf, Yoshi NEEDS to use it as a recovery right now and so do other rising aerial characters. A nerf to his recovery is baaaaddd unless his recovery gets fixed (which it partially will with Paprika's code). Just thought I would mention this.

To which I say:

- If executed while rising, acts as normal.

 

[goodoldganon]

leaf, Yoshi NEEDS to use it as a recovery right now and so do other rising aerial characters. A nerf to his recovery is baaaaddd unless his recovery gets fixed (which it partially will with Paprika's code). Just thought I would mention this.

Exempt the characters like that? Yoshi/Ness/Lucas.

Or ya Leaf already covered it.

 

[kupo15]

We don't need to restrict usage of the airdodge at all, at least in terms of how many times you can do it. Here's what I think we should do with the airdodge:

- If executed in tumble, there are three frames of additional startup lag.
- If executed while falling, dgrav set to x, which is some fractional value.
- If executed while falling, horizontal momentum is stopped.
- If executed while rising, acts as normal.

Note the bold part. We can stop this from being used as a recovery tool very easily. I also just realized that with the fourth provision that SHAD would still be very viable, which is cool. I'm actually not sure if the first provision would even be necessary with the second and third ones.

So you mean it acts like they hit an invisible brick wall? I'm not too sure I'm keen on the idea. Then yoshi is only limited to recovering while rising

 

[leafgreen386]

So you mean it acts like they hit an invisible brick wall? I'm not too sure I'm keen on the idea. Then yoshi is only limited to recovering while rising

Well, the sudden grav change will already be a considerable alteration in their movement path, so having them lose their horizontal momentum won't be so bad. Plus, they shouldn't be falling that much during the AD anymore, so they don't lose as much room to recover as they would've if it was on regular grav.

 

[Foxy]

From playing in the grand finals of multiple Brawl+ tournaments I can say this for sure:

-The largest defensive problems are airdodging and shield drop time
-Spotdodge and rolldodge are not quite as bad, but still overpowered

I would go into a lot of detail about Brawl+'s imbalance with defensive options but I think we're all already quite aware of that.

Airdodging: One major problem is that using a short-hopped airdodge to approach is too useful. Now, of course it can be punished when they land, probably 80% of the time successfully, but only if you see it coming. And if you're playing tense spacing wars between the characters' strongest approach moves, suddenly facing an airdodging opponent instead of a spaced aerial can be to quick a change to react to, as you have to make some kind of move to counter the aerial that may or may not have come out instead. This may seem like a flimsy concept but this kind of battle was basically the entire spacing in the last grand finals I won.

Furthermore, it's also like we've said before too strong a recovery or safe-fall option. I am reasonably confident that this can be well-solved by either increasing the lag and decreasing the invulnerability (directly changing its power by requiring that much less reaction speed by the punishing player) or by implementing the Melee AD, which I was, like everyone, completely opposed to in early stages of B+ but now I see as possibly a necessity in the future. But that's for a different discussion.

Spotdodge: To be honest, I rarely use this, but I can tell what the power would be like and I think the best fix for now would be, like with the AD, to decrease invincibility and increase vulnerability lag.

Rolldodge: Same as spotdodge.

Shield Release Time: Even though it has been slowed down already it does seem too safe to simply attack out of your shield, not being pressured to only a few options like in Melee (jump, shffl aerial, grab, up b, roll, spotdodge, up smash, jc shine). I dunno, I don't see any harm in approaching Melee's lag frames for this, it does need to be nerfed.

 

[goodoldganon]

I think Foxy makes good points, but as I said in IRC we should not manhandle the defensive game and see how it plays from there. Brawl+ just has a stronger defensive game then Melee, but I would not argue the offense or defense is too one-sided. Basically, I think we need EXTENSIVE testing with the new air dodge nerf before we implement anymore defensive nerfs.

One thing Brawl+ is doing well is keeping the powerful defense. I can assume many of us don't like playing incredibly defensively or using a campy playstyle, but those options should be open to people. We have made the reward significantly higher for those that make a successful approach.

I don't know, I started rambling. Long story short lets see how this air dodge nerf works out and wait for PW or Spunit to help us make some changes to the airdodge physics. On that note, we CAN NOT bring the melee air dodge back. It will literally kill and stop this project. No matter what physics changes we make to the AD, you have to still move though the air while you are doing it.

 

[kupo15]

One thing Brawl+ is doing well is keeping the powerful defense. I can assume many of us don't like playing incredibly defensively or using a campy playstyle, but those options should be open to people. We have made the reward significantly higher for those that make a successful approach.

I agree that a super strong defense is an area that brawl+ is doing well in but I don't like this fact at all. Defense is naturally more powerful than offense to in order to achieve a balance over the two, offense must be stronger than defense. Seeing the problems addressed such as air dodging, shield drop lag and spot dodging, I don't see how we achieved this balance yet. It would seem that to the eye offensive playstyle gets rewarded but in actuality, smart defense is still a better tactic.

In regarding MAD. I don't want to see "MAD" come back, but I would like to see brawl's form of MAD come back. This being the following:

Single airdodge/fall state (haven't decided)
Low dgrav so that the distance traveled is roughly that of melee's

I would rather not see a loss in invincibility frames for the dodges. Maybe as a temp fix but I would like a true added lag to spot dodges and maybe air dodges if we go with the single air dodge over the fall state one