Do the 64 and Melee veterans have outdated and/or inaccurate portrayals?

Quillion

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#41
I'm just going to respond to your 64/Melee characters for the sake of staying on topic. Though if you want more talk about alternate movesets, I've been talking about moveset swapping by Shield-B on the Shield-B thread and the Transformation thread.

Mario - for the love of God get rid of fludd, and go back to Mario tornado. If anything, give him an alternate moveset using fludd for the entire moveset.
Honestly, I just want FLUDD to be gone altogether. Its presence in Mario's moveset is really outdated alongside the cape. If Mario were to get an alternate moveset, it should be hammer-based. However, I also wouldn't mind changing F-Smash or F-air to be a hammer move.

Donkey Kong - I'd give him an alt moveset where he can pull barells out of the ground for side b, and where he's shot out of a barrel for up b.
As I said before, both of those would ruin DK's niche as a bare-handed, close-range, heavy brawler.

Ganondorf - he needs an alternate moveset representing his ocarina of time appearance. That's where he was invented for gods sake! Why is he still a clone of falcon?
He certainly wasn't faithful to begin with, but... I honestly don't care. The moveset is too good to lose or shunt off to another character.

Young link - the coolest thing would be to give him an alt moveset where he can cycle between Masks (deku, Zora and goron)
Honestly, I think most people would be mad if they were forced to play as Young Link using his masks and not the Zelda staple tools.

Zelda/sheik - I'd offer an alternate option where you can sacrifice their new down b to be able to swap between the two again.
Hell no! They should be completely separate, no alternate moveset or anything.
 
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#42
I'm just going to respond to your 64/Melee characters for the sake of staying on topic. Though if you want more talk about alternate movesets, I've been talking about moveset swapping by Shield-B on the Shield-B thread and the Transformation thread.



Honestly, I just want FLUDD to be gone altogether. Its presence in Mario's moveset is really outdated alongside the cape. If Mario were to get an alternate moveset, it should be hammer-based. However, I also wouldn't mind changing F-Smash or F-air to be a hammer move.



As I said before, both of those would ruin DK's niche as a bare-handed, close-range, heavy brawler.



He certainly wasn't faithful to begin with, but... I honestly don't care. The moveset is too good to lose or shunt off to another character.



Honestly, I think most people would be mad if they were forced to play as Young Link using his masks and not the Zelda staple tools.



Hell no! They should be completely separate, no alternate moveset or anything.
For all of your reservations on these, remember I'm for keeping the original movesets while also adding new ones as alternate movesets that I would say can be toggled in the character select screen. And ganons moveset can 100 percent be black shadows moveset.
 

Quillion

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#43
For all of your reservations on these, remember I'm for keeping the original movesets while also adding new ones as alternate movesets that I would say can be toggled in the character select screen. And ganons moveset can 100 percent be black shadows moveset.
But would characters accumulate new movesets over time, or would they just be locked to one main set and one alternate set with no regard to the future? You gotta think about these things.

Anyway, I prefer alternate movesets to be toggleable with Shield-B in the heat of battle, yet have those moveset swaps restrained so that they won't be too extreme. Like, instead of Ganondorf only having sword moves for his Smashes, Shield-B can change his Smashes and aerials into sword moves. No other moves would change.
 

Diddy Kong

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#44
Ohhh I love these kind of threads! I'll do the very first 12 veterans first from Smash 64, then in a next post the Melee veterans because well.. I frankly don't feel too much for writing these out too much.

:ultmario:: Mario is all around a great balanced character, and fine tuned in Smash 4 to have a great combo-based playstyle. YET! There's quit a bit I would see changed. For example, why did Dr.Mario, and not Mario HIMSELF get the famous 'Goomba Stomp' attack? Mario basically invented killing enemies by jumping on them. I also think F.L.U.D.D. was just kept in to differenciate him a little from Dr.Mario's return, which is rather lazy. Does it matter that much that Mario and Dr.Mario have differernt Down B attacks, but Luigi still has the Cyclone....? It makes no sense really. I also liked his Fire Balls best in Smash 64, where they felt most like the fire balls in the Mario games, but slower. I also don't like the Up Smash, it's a rather random move. If Paper Mario yet again doesn't make it, why didn't they give him a overhead hammer swinging attack? That's pretty staple of Mario at this point.

:ultdk:: Yes the original Leader of the Bunch! I'll admit, in the beginning I didn't feel much for Smash 64's DK because he felt so different from the DK I myself grew up with from Donkey Kong Country. It took a while, but with his dash attack changed in 4, they made that one change that was absolutely needed. Besides that, that old dash attack was straight up awkward. Speaking of akwkward, Head But... It's not a good move in design, in utility, and looks rather dumb. Why not make it a sort of double fisted ramming attack somewhat similar to a grounded Forward Aerial that does exactly the same thing??? It would improve the range, and with DK's strenght, actually would make a lot of sense instead of headbutting people into the ground...

I get his design doesn't really allow for a projectile, much like Ganondorf's, so I won't complain about no barrel tossing attack (because given how strong the barrels are in Smash, it'd easily be broken) - but there's a lot what you can do with DK which stays true with his character. He's without a doubt the one Smash character who relies most on raw, brutal strenght moreso even than Bowser and Ganondorf, and they could've gone with a grappling type of attack. It's rather ironic that Diddy got a command grab with Monkey Flip before DK, and it's a great fitting move, whereas DK's Headbut is just ughhh... I also don't quite like how they change up DK's personality so drastically each game. Smash 4 was wayyyy too goofy, and Ulitmate's DK looks way too aggresive; I hugely prefer the Brawl DK look, as it also looks most like Rare's Donkey Kong. Also strange they managed to avoid the DK designs of Returns and Tropical Freeze, which where also AAA+ designs.

:ultlink:: The Breath of the Wild redo of his moveset really makes him feel fresh! This is a Link I really look forward to playing as. The only thing that doesn't really fit is his Boomerang, but I'll let that pass because of how iconic it is, and it also sort of feels good to have it back despite not being in Breath of the Wild. They even gave him a regular grab, and sword beam projectiles! This is how you revamp a OG Veteran, Sakurai.

:ultsamus:: What hasn't been said already? Ever since Smash 4's inclusion of Mii Gunner, and more noticably Mega Man, Samus's moveset felt.. lacking. It's ironic since at THAT EXACT given point, Samus was given a lot of Melee based attacks in mainstream Metroid games. Other M was the very first to do it, and it came back in full 2D Metroid with Samus Returns 3DS. And Samus has also finally been given the ability to charge her beam in midair... Still, Power Suit Samus feels rather lackluster overall. She needs to be a killer machine who rapidly shoots projectiles, and that needs to show in Smash as well. I wouldn't care if the Missiles only did about 5~6% damage max, she just needs to be able to fire them rapidly and instantly and with the ability to aim them slightly. Mega Man and Simon Belmont come from games that are rather similar in design as Metroid, why do their moveset reflect that extra polish more than Samus's?? It's also sad they stuck with the Other M Samus design BUT INCLUDED TWO METROID NEWCOMERS with vastly different designs..... I predict a 3rd time Bottom Tier yet again, sorry. This character just won't get no love.

:ultyoshi:: I think Egg Throw has been redeemed. Finally. But now what else sticks out? His tongue certainly doesn't... It needs to be at least twice as long. And give him a semi-grappler related playstyle. Why is he not able to eat stuff with his Neutral B while Kirby and even Wario can? Other than that, I think Yoshi is actually a rock solid character in terms of representation.

:ultkirby:: That Inhale buff was literally all that was truly needed to fix Kirby up. He's already insanely light, and has bad recovery to boot despite the 5 jumps. So being able to spit back projectiles and healing by inhaling them is great! It was the ONE change I wanted for Kirby, and we got it. There's just way too much to include for Kirby, possibilities for a moveset are endless. I like how Burning is back as a Dash Attack as well. Final Cutter is kind of underwhelming however. It's just very weird overall how Kirby wasn't given the ability to eat stuff up with Inhale and heal with it, but WARIO was...

:ultfox:: What else can we expect from a character that's 99% of the time airbone and his franchise is bound to recreate that one N64 game for the rest of eternity? *sigh* Fox's moveset is good creative liberty, especially within StarFox canon. The Reflector is genious, so is the Blaster and the others wellllll... They fit? Side B looks convincing enough, and heard a few bit of inspiration for Fox's moveset even came from the Kitsune legend in Japan, a apperant fox mythical creature of great strenght. So that's kinda cool.

:ultpikachu:: Skull Bash is kind of an eyesore. Why didn't they change it up for Volt Tackle whenever they could and use Catastropika as a new Final Smash? In general, Pikachu needed farrrr more electical attacks in his moveset, and now moves as N Air are changed, and he gets electrical effects on attacks like F Tilt and such. They could do well with changing up Pikachu a little bit, but like Fox, he was always a character that had a very solid kit and consistantly was placed as at least High Tier. A worse overall representation than say, Mario I would say, but still sort of acceptable. They should play around with his moveset a little, for example making the Thunder Jolt a chargable projectile attack or something? Or make it Thunder Wave, with a similar animation but a lottttt of hitstun. Down Smash can also be changed up to say.. a electrical shockwave attack that comes from the ground or so? Use his tail more in aerials, as say, B Air? I also think he's too big and if he gets revamped, make him lighter, stronger, and have way more ranged attacks. He should be around Kirby's current height but be a small character with considerable range, power and hitstun.

:ultluigi:: So, he's walking around in that Castlevania castle with his Poltergeist, which is arguably wayyy more iconic to Luigi than F.L.U.D.D. is to Mario, yet he only uses it for his Final Smash? Then why was it so underwhelming in that trailer? It's just weird. Yeah I don't expect him to change up all that much, and I wouldn't mind. Luigi is okay as he is I feel.

:ultness:: As a Ness enthusiast, am actually glad they decided to change up that headbut U Air. He got way more PSI-related attacks ever since Smash 4, and Brawl did a lot to flair them up as well. He hasn't used his own PSI ever since Smash 64, but I don't care about that at this point. Ness is cool, he uses offensive PSI, a PSI barrier attack, his bat and his yo-yo. So he's overall really well done. I personally would change his Forward Tilt and Dash Attack to bat attacks as well honestly as to give him more disjointed attacks, but hey, can't complain.

:ultfalcon:: Even IF a new F-Zero game came out and gave this guy lots of canon material to work with, I wouldn't want his Smash moveset changed ever. Legendary status at this point, and top peak of creative liberty mixed with randomness. He represents Smash more than his home franchise, and the overall wacky, weird and random nature of the game. C.Falcon is golden, don't touch.

:ultjigglypuff:: Nothing of noticable worth to discuss here. She never jumped like she did in Smash in Pokemon games I recall. But who cares? Her base moveset and Specials represent her actual abilities in Pokemon better than even Pikachu's. Pound, Sing and Rest are quite iconic, even if she doesn't actually learn Rest, it fits her theme. Roll Out is random, but a cool random one, like Mewtwo's Shadow Ball. Probably added to Melee because they needed some Generation 2 GSC moves in there. If I would change a thing, I would make Sing a more ranged attack. That one of the musical notes just drifts off after Sing has been used, and can cause sleep status from a distance when it hits. Pretty useless move overall honestly, despite it being her MOST iconic move ever.
 

Quillion

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#45
Ohhh I love these kind of threads! I'll do the very first 12 veterans first from Smash 64, then in a next post the Melee veterans because well.. I frankly don't feel too much for writing these out too much.
I'm glad you like this topic. I've always been fascinated about how Smash responds or not to the evolution of the characters represented in it. For me, it started when I used to complain about Ganondorf, but I eventually wanted to look at the other characters and see how they all hold up.

:ultmario:: Mario is all around a great balanced character, and fine tuned in Smash 4 to have a great combo-based playstyle. YET! There's quit a bit I would see changed. For example, why did Dr.Mario, and not Mario HIMSELF get the famous 'Goomba Stomp' attack? Mario basically invented killing enemies by jumping on them. I also think F.L.U.D.D. was just kept in to differenciate him a little from Dr.Mario's return, which is rather lazy. Does it matter that much that Mario and Dr.Mario have differernt Down B attacks, but Luigi still has the Cyclone....? It makes no sense really. I also liked his Fire Balls best in Smash 64, where they felt most like the fire balls in the Mario games, but slower. I also don't like the Up Smash, it's a rather random move. If Paper Mario yet again doesn't make it, why didn't they give him a overhead hammer swinging attack? That's pretty staple of Mario at this point.
Totally agree on the Goomba Stomp, as I have said before. Again, I think Ground Pound would make a better Down-B than either Tornado or FLUDD. Tornado itself would better fit Side-B, or they can animation-revamp Side-B to just be a single spin as in Mario Galaxy and the NSMB games.

:ultdk:: Yes the original Leader of the Bunch! I'll admit, in the beginning I didn't feel much for Smash 64's DK because he felt so different from the DK I myself grew up with from Donkey Kong Country. It took a while, but with his dash attack changed in 4, they made that one change that was absolutely needed. Besides that, that old dash attack was straight up awkward. Speaking of akwkward, Head But... It's not a good move in design, in utility, and looks rather dumb. Why not make it a sort of double fisted ramming attack somewhat similar to a grounded Forward Aerial that does exactly the same thing??? It would improve the range, and with DK's strenght, actually would make a lot of sense instead of headbutting people into the ground...

I get his design doesn't really allow for a projectile, much like Ganondorf's, so I won't complain about no barrel tossing attack (because given how strong the barrels are in Smash, it'd easily be broken) - but there's a lot what you can do with DK which stays true with his character. He's without a doubt the one Smash character who relies most on raw, brutal strenght moreso even than Bowser and Ganondorf, and they could've gone with a grappling type of attack. It's rather ironic that Diddy got a command grab with Monkey Flip before DK, and it's a great fitting move, whereas DK's Headbut is just ughhh... I also don't quite like how they change up DK's personality so drastically each game. Smash 4 was wayyyy too goofy, and Ulitmate's DK looks way too aggresive; I hugely prefer the Brawl DK look, as it also looks most like Rare's Donkey Kong. Also strange they managed to avoid the DK designs of Returns and Tropical Freeze, which where also AAA+ designs.
I've said my part on DK, but I think the two-handed overhead as a revamp for Headbutt would really do well to increase its utility. His current F-air can be moved to the aerial Side-B so that it retains the meteor properties (seriously, DK has no shortage of meteor dunks), while the forward clap from Jungle Beat could replace it in the F-air slot. I'm pleasantly surprised that you don't want DK to get a projectile, though.

:ultlink:: The Breath of the Wild redo of his moveset really makes him feel fresh! This is a Link I really look forward to playing as. The only thing that doesn't really fit is his Boomerang, but I'll let that pass because of how iconic it is, and it also sort of feels good to have it back despite not being in Breath of the Wild. They even gave him a regular grab, and sword beam projectiles! This is how you revamp a OG Veteran, Sakurai.
There are boomerangs in BotW. They just suck, so no one really thinks to use them.

Honestly, I'm more worried for what will happen to Link in the future of Smash. Are they going to keep the BotW design for all future games? Or are they going to revamp him every Smash in response to whatever is the most recent game?

Personally, I think the revamp was too much; I want Link to keep his left-handedness, the hookshot, and the classic bombs. This is why I want a fourth Classic Link that has the Smash 4 moveset and animations.

:ultsamus:: What hasn't been said already? Ever since Smash 4's inclusion of Mii Gunner, and more noticably Mega Man, Samus's moveset felt.. lacking. It's ironic since at THAT EXACT given point, Samus was given a lot of Melee based attacks in mainstream Metroid games. Other M was the very first to do it, and it came back in full 2D Metroid with Samus Returns 3DS. And Samus has also finally been given the ability to charge her beam in midair... Still, Power Suit Samus feels rather lackluster overall. She needs to be a killer machine who rapidly shoots projectiles, and that needs to show in Smash as well. I wouldn't care if the Missiles only did about 5~6% damage max, she just needs to be able to fire them rapidly and instantly and with the ability to aim them slightly. Mega Man and Simon Belmont come from games that are rather similar in design as Metroid, why do their moveset reflect that extra polish more than Samus's?? It's also sad they stuck with the Other M Samus design BUT INCLUDED TWO METROID NEWCOMERS with vastly different designs..... I predict a 3rd time Bottom Tier yet again, sorry. This character just won't get no love.
Completely agreed. Samus needs projectile normals. Not much else to say here.

:ultyoshi:: I think Egg Throw has been redeemed. Finally. But now what else sticks out? His tongue certainly doesn't... It needs to be at least twice as long. And give him a semi-grappler related playstyle. Why is he not able to eat stuff with his Neutral B while Kirby and even Wario can? Other than that, I think Yoshi is actually a rock solid character in terms of representation.
Haha, I remember back in Melee where Marth's grab actually outranges his tongue. I think even to this day, Dedede has a longer grab.

:ultkirby:: That Inhale buff was literally all that was truly needed to fix Kirby up. He's already insanely light, and has bad recovery to boot despite the 5 jumps. So being able to spit back projectiles and healing by inhaling them is great! It was the ONE change I wanted for Kirby, and we got it. There's just way too much to include for Kirby, possibilities for a moveset are endless. I like how Burning is back as a Dash Attack as well. Final Cutter is kind of underwhelming however. It's just very weird overall how Kirby wasn't given the ability to eat stuff up with Inhale and heal with it, but WARIO was...
Northadox Northadox had some cool ideas for how they could replace the generic moves in this post. Though given that Smash Bros. is an actual canon Kirby ability, maybe there isn't much need to replace those moves.

:ultfox:: What else can we expect from a character that's 99% of the time airbone and his franchise is bound to recreate that one N64 game for the rest of eternity? *sigh* Fox's moveset is good creative liberty, especially within StarFox canon. The Reflector is genious, so is the Blaster and the others wellllll... They fit? Side B looks convincing enough, and heard a few bit of inspiration for Fox's moveset even came from the Kitsune legend in Japan, a apperant fox mythical creature of great strenght. So that's kinda cool.
I actually heard that Fox's moves are supposed to symbolize the Arwing, with only the Blaster being an actual canon move (albeit originating in Star Fox 64 in a very different fashion). But I can't find the source anymore. Can anyone locate it for me?

:ultpikachu:: Skull Bash is kind of an eyesore. Why didn't they change it up for Volt Tackle whenever they could and use Catastropika as a new Final Smash? In general, Pikachu needed farrrr more electical attacks in his moveset, and now moves as N Air are changed, and he gets electrical effects on attacks like F Tilt and such. They could do well with changing up Pikachu a little bit, but like Fox, he was always a character that had a very solid kit and consistantly was placed as at least High Tier. A worse overall representation than say, Mario I would say, but still sort of acceptable. They should play around with his moveset a little, for example making the Thunder Jolt a chargable projectile attack or something? Or make it Thunder Wave, with a similar animation but a lottttt of hitstun. Down Smash can also be changed up to say.. a electrical shockwave attack that comes from the ground or so? Use his tail more in aerials, as say, B Air? I also think he's too big and if he gets revamped, make him lighter, stronger, and have way more ranged attacks. He should be around Kirby's current height but be a small character with considerable range, power and hitstun.
Well, since Smash has historically favored Fragile Speedsters in competitive, I'm not surprised that Pikachu has been consistently good. Plus, his small size does him a lot of favors.

It will be hard to give him more hitstun in a balanced way as long as hitstun is entirely tied to knockback, which I REALLY WANT to be changed.

:ultluigi:: So, he's walking around in that Castlevania castle with his Poltergeist, which is arguably wayyy more iconic to Luigi than F.L.U.D.D. is to Mario, yet he only uses it for his Final Smash? Then why was it so underwhelming in that trailer? It's just weird. Yeah I don't expect him to change up all that much, and I wouldn't mind. Luigi is okay as he is I feel.
I think the Poltergust is rather glaring since we already have Kirby, Dedede, and K. Rool, and they all have sucking moves, but I think him keeping the Cyclone is a way of having Mario being updated to be more different from Luigi. If Mario had FLUDD and Luigi had Poltergust, it would come off as not being unique.

:ultness:: As a Ness enthusiast, am actually glad they decided to change up that headbut U Air. He got way more PSI-related attacks ever since Smash 4, and Brawl did a lot to flair them up as well. He hasn't used his own PSI ever since Smash 64, but I don't care about that at this point. Ness is cool, he uses offensive PSI, a PSI barrier attack, his bat and his yo-yo. So he's overall really well done. I personally would change his Forward Tilt and Dash Attack to bat attacks as well honestly as to give him more disjointed attacks, but hey, can't complain.
Actually, PK Flash does belong to him, but it doesn't cause dizziness like it logically should in Smash (it causes blindness/crying normally, but confusion is an optional effect).

:ultfalcon:: Even IF a new F-Zero game came out and gave this guy lots of canon material to work with, I wouldn't want his Smash moveset changed ever. Legendary status at this point, and top peak of creative liberty mixed with randomness. He represents Smash more than his home franchise, and the overall wacky, weird and random nature of the game. C.Falcon is golden, don't touch.
Yeah, I have faith that if an F-Zero game has cutscenes where Falcon actually fights, he'll be using his Falcon Punches and Kicks, and probably mixing his gun in there a little bit.

:ultjigglypuff:: Nothing of noticable worth to discuss here. She never jumped like she did in Smash in Pokemon games I recall. But who cares? Her base moveset and Specials represent her actual abilities in Pokemon better than even Pikachu's. Pound, Sing and Rest are quite iconic, even if she doesn't actually learn Rest, it fits her theme. Roll Out is random, but a cool random one, like Mewtwo's Shadow Ball. Probably added to Melee because they needed some Generation 2 GSC moves in there. If I would change a thing, I would make Sing a more ranged attack. That one of the musical notes just drifts off after Sing has been used, and can cause sleep status from a distance when it hits. Pretty useless move overall honestly, despite it being her MOST iconic move ever.
Sing would really be better if you could direct the music notes a la PK Thunder.
 

Diddy Kong

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#46
I'm glad you like this topic. I've always been fascinated about how Smash responds or not to the evolution of the characters represented in it. For me, it started when I used to complain about Ganondorf, but I eventually wanted to look at the other characters and see how they all hold up.
Honestly it's been a huge eyesore to me ever since Smash 4. You see these overly ambitiously created characters, especially third party ones, with a moveset just booming with canon material and it being straight up denied for veteran characters "because it would alienate veteran players"... No, not the case. Look at Villager for example. A big reason why people expect no more unique newcomers of Animal Crossing is cause Villager represents it fully already on his own. Then Mega Man with his countless abilities straight pulled from the older games, Ryu straight up has his entire Street Fighter kit with more imputs than other characters, Cloud gets the speed and swordbeam that was straight up denied for Ike (cause it would make him "oVeRpOwErD" :rolleyes: ), and yeah it just feels "unfair" in a lot of ways.

Totally agree on the Goomba Stomp, as I have said before. Again, I think Ground Pound would make a better Down-B than either Tornado or FLUDD. Tornado itself would better fit Side-B, or they can animation-revamp Side-B to just be a single spin as in Mario Galaxy and the NSMB games.
:ultmario:; Totally agree here as well! And even thought of that since before Brawl. Always felt it was odd that they gave Yoshi and Bowser those attacks, but not Mario. Even weirder when you realise that since Brawl, there where D Air attacks that would sent you straight down. Weird how that was denied for Mario. I always thought that Mario Tornado was a very unique move that felt real fitting for Mario however. Creative liberty, yes, but especially consider how he fights in Mario 64, it fits very well.

I've said my part on DK, but I think the two-handed overhead as a revamp for Headbutt would really do well to increase its utility. His current F-air can be moved to the aerial Side-B so that it retains the meteor properties (seriously, DK has no shortage of meteor dunks), while the forward clap from Jungle Beat could replace it in the F-air slot. I'm pleasantly surprised that you don't want DK to get a projectile, though.
:ultdk:;Yes a projectile doesn't fit all the heavy weights. Am happy we finally got a super heavyweight who has a lot of projectiles with King K.Rool however. :ultkrool: But giving each and every heavy a projectile just doesn't fit well. Spinning Kong is also indeed a weird move, and yes I agree that it would've been way better to give DK a Barrel Canon as Up B. Or indeed the vine swing, cause he also literally does that in the Ultimate artwork on the main site. Your other ideas are clever too! About the projectiles yet again, it really doesn't fit DK's playstyle in the slightest.

There are boomerangs in BotW. They just suck, so no one really thinks to use them.

Honestly, I'm more worried for what will happen to Link in the future of Smash. Are they going to keep the BotW design for all future games? Or are they going to revamp him every Smash in response to whatever is the most recent game?

Personally, I think the revamp was too much; I want Link to keep his left-handedness, the hookshot, and the classic bombs. This is why I want a fourth Classic Link that has the Smash 4 moveset and animations.
:ultlink:; We'll see about that when the next Zelda comes out, or at least gets announced. Am awaiting this eagerly ever since I mostly finished BotW (great game!)- especially cause I am just curious about what they are gonna do next.

I also don't think a new Smash will come out for a looooong time after Ultimate though, so it's kind of cool as it is. And yes, Boomerangs really do suck in Breath of the Wild. I only used the Lizalfos onces at times if I couldn't find anything else. Never threw them either, so they just felt completely absent in the game.

I also would've liked a sort of randomised arrow system. Link putting out all different kinds of arrows, like Fire Arrows, Ice Arrows, Bomb Arrows and Shock Arrows... Would've been a nice touch.

Overall, I think :ultlink: is justified the changes because :ultyounglink: is back, along with :ulttoonlink:. So he needed something extra to stand out.

Completely agreed. Samus needs projectile normals. Not much else to say here.
:ultsamus:; Not only that, she should be able to fire her Charge Shot faster, or straight after a couple of moves. Cancel a lot of end lag with Charge Shot for example. Missed that F Smash? Not to worry; Charge Shot is ready to cover up your mistake. Also forces your opponent to play a lot more aggressive whenever your beam isn't charged, so that's good on a professional level as well.

Haha, I remember back in Melee where Marth's grab actually outranges his tongue. I think even to this day, Dedede has a longer grab.
:ultyoshi:; It's terrible. And Neutral B is also just about the most underwhelming Special Moves in the game... He should be able to eat up items and the like and make eggs with them, which in return, Yoshi can use as projectiles himself similar to Peach's Turpins and Diddy's Bananas. A special gimmick especially made for him. And it wouldn't even be as OP as Pocket even......

Northadox Northadox had some cool ideas for how they could replace the generic moves in this post. Though given that Smash Bros. is an actual canon Kirby ability, maybe there isn't much need to replace those moves.
:ultkirby:; As far as I remember, the Smash ability also gave Kirby quite some extra range as compared to his Smash moveset.


I mean it doesn't have to be exactly like this, but even the Kirby games recognised that Kirby's Smash moveset was lackluster... :rolleyes:

I actually heard that Fox's moves are supposed to symbolize the Arwing, with only the Blaster being an actual canon move (albeit originating in Star Fox 64 in a very different fashion). But I can't find the source anymore. Can anyone locate it for me?
:ultfox:; Yes certainly the Arwing took most of the inspiration! Agree with that. But he doesn't have much to work with anyway. Which is why I think he's rather boring to discuss. But still fun to play in all games but Melee lol

Well, since Smash has historically favored Fragile Speedsters in competitive, I'm not surprised that Pikachu has been consistently good. Plus, his small size does him a lot of favors.

It will be hard to give him more hitstun in a balanced way as long as hitstun is entirely tied to knockback, which I REALLY WANT to be changed.
:ultpikachu:; Oh yes I agree there! Hitstun and knockback should really be separated as quickly as possible. Hopefully we'll see that changed a little in Ultimate at least. Anyhow, he can be more of a Fragile Speedster I feel. I mean, he only weights 13 pounds in canon. Why is he heavier than Mewtwo in this game? Then again... so is Kirby.

I think the Poltergust is rather glaring since we already have Kirby, Dedede, and K. Rool, and they all have sucking moves, but I think him keeping the Cyclone is a way of having Mario being updated to be more different from Luigi. If Mario had FLUDD and Luigi had Poltergust, it would come off as not being unique.
:ultluigi:; Maybe so, but then again, maybe the better decision would've been to give Luigi the Poltergeist and let Mario keep the Mario Tornado. It's just a weird choice and I wanted F.L.U.D.D. gone since I knew Mario had it... Was surprised to see it return in Smash 4, and even now with Ultimate I think it's really strange Mario still carries it around.

Actually, PK Flash does belong to him, but it doesn't cause dizziness like it logically should in Smash (it causes blindness/crying normally, but confusion is an optional effect).
:ultness:; Almost forgot Ness had PK Flash :laugh: Yeah, that's how little the move gets used. But you are right. They could've given it a shield stun animation though when you hit with it instead of it doing a lot of damage, or have the effects be randomised much like Mr.Game & Watch's Judge in a way (but less extreme). Anyway, he's fine.

Yeah, I have faith that if an F-Zero game has cutscenes where Falcon actually fights, he'll be using his Falcon Punches and Kicks, and probably mixing his gun in there a little bit.
:ultfalcon:; I heard the last F-Zero even had C.Falcon say Falcon Punch in the start screen / menu. Will look that up. And yes, he definitely would be using Falcon Punches and Kicks, along with some obvious taunting showmanship. I don't even want him to use that gun.

Sing would really be better if you could direct the music notes a la PK Thunder.
:ultjigglypuff:; Now you say that, it's cool to envision it. What about Pound being a double hitting move, and being called Double Slap? Does Jigglypuff even learn that? I dunno. I guess Pound is also fine. I hardly have any beef with the Puffster though as she is currently.
 

Tougon

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#48
:ultfalcon:; I heard the last F-Zero even had C.Falcon say Falcon Punch in the start screen / menu. Will look that up. And yes, he definitely would be using Falcon Punches and Kicks, along with some obvious taunting showmanship. I don't even want him to use that gun.



:ultjigglypuff:; Now you say that, it's cool to envision it. What about Pound being a double hitting move, and being called Double Slap? Does Jigglypuff even learn that? I dunno. I guess Pound is also fine. I hardly have any beef with the Puffster though as she is currently.
The Falcon Punch is mentioned by name in the credits theme for F-Zero GX.

Jigglypuff learns Double Slap by level up, so altering Pound like that could be a possibility. Granted, Jigglypuff also learns Pound so...
 

Luigifan18

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#49
IIRC, Jigglypuff does learn Rest by leveling up. And, yes, I checked Bulbapedia to be sure.
 
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Quillion

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#50
Honestly it's been a huge eyesore to me ever since Smash 4. You see these overly ambitiously created characters, especially third party ones, with a moveset just booming with canon material and it being straight up denied for veteran characters "because it would alienate veteran players"... No, not the case. Look at Villager for example. A big reason why people expect no more unique newcomers of Animal Crossing is cause Villager represents it fully already on his own. Then Mega Man with his countless abilities straight pulled from the older games, Ryu straight up has his entire Street Fighter kit with more imputs than other characters, Cloud gets the speed and swordbeam that was straight up denied for Ike (cause it would make him "oVeRpOwErD" :rolleyes: ), and yeah it just feels "unfair" in a lot of ways.
I can't really disagree for certain characters (the non-Link Zelda cast in particular), but I found that it's really difficult to make super detailed 1:1 portrayals as was done for the Smash 4 characters.

How do fill the abilities for the Ice Climbers? How do you fill the abilities for Marth and Roy? How do you fill the abilities for Captain Falcon? How do you fill the abilities for Peach?

And then there's the Pokémon. There's just no way to translate most of the moves to Smash where they work exactly as they do in their home series, which is a TBRPG. It's the reason why Thunder Jolt symbolizes all Electric-type special moves instead of picking one out of a hundred of them. At least Jigglypuff's entire special set is comprised of its level-up moveset, but for all the Pokémon, trying to map all these moves to every single attack, normal and special, is just unrealistic. Ness has a similar problem, but I think symbolizing the three PSI users is a much better choice than just representing himself.

But yes, Samus needs projectile normals, and she also needs better projectile specials at that. Fox and Falco (and Wolf by extension) would probably be better if they used the weapons from Assault, but Nintendo's dissociation from the non-EPD-developed Star Fox games will put a damper on that. Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf are complete embarrassments representation-wise, but I have a lot of affection for Ganondorf's moveset in particular just as I have with Melee Bowser, so there's a bunch of conflicting feelings there.
 

lucasla

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#51
I just never liked Mario Water Cannon... Sunshine is probably one of the less played Mario game ever, and there are so many cool habilities they could bring from the Galaxy 1, 2, 3D World and Odyssey games...
 

Quillion

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#52
I just never liked Mario Water Cannon... Sunshine is probably one of the less played Mario game ever, and there are so many cool habilities they could bring from the Galaxy 1, 2, 3D World and Odyssey games...
Like what? The Triple Jump? The Sideflip? The crouching backflip? The Spin Jump?

I don't really think any of those will fit in Smash. Attacks need to be prioritized, and unique movement options should not be a thing.
 

lucasla

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#53
Like what? The Triple Jump? The Sideflip? The crouching backflip? The Spin Jump?

I don't really think any of those will fit in Smash. Attacks need to be prioritized, and unique movement options should not be a thing.
There are a lot of power ups in these games, even in Odyssey mario can turn into many different things that could become an attack. Throw the hat could be a good substitute with the same effect of push an enemy back.
 
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Quillion

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#54
There are a lot of power ups in these games, even in Odyssey mario can turn into many different things that could become an attack.
The problem is that even that will eventually face the same problem that the Cape and FLUDD have of being outdated. It also doesn't help that those two moves are rather situational in Smash anyway.

This is why I want the Ground Pound to be his down-B and the Spin/Mario Tornado to move to Side-B.
 

lucasla

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#55
The problem is that even that will eventually face the same problem that the Cape and FLUDD have of being outdated. It also doesn't help that those two moves are rather situational in Smash anyway.

This is why I want the Ground Pound to be his down-B and the Spin/Mario Tornado to move to Side-B.
I understand, but with the next Smash probably dont coming for at least 10 years, only change the water cannon for a hat throw that has the same effect of push an enemy back would be enough for a long time. Also, the throw hat thing is such a natural idea of a new move, that it could be seen as a move that references no game, so it could never get old, maybe.
 
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#56
I'm upset about Mario. JUMPMAN really should have more movement capabilities, and not getting his hat toss (which could then be another platform for him) was more than a missed opportunity.
 

Luigifan18

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#57
Guys... you all forget how central the Cape and FLUDD are to Mario's metagame as his most fantastic edgeguarding options.
 

Quillion

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#58
I'm upset about Mario. JUMPMAN really should have more movement capabilities, and not getting his hat toss (which could then be another platform for him) was more than a missed opportunity.
They can make his jumping not be below average, but that's as far as it goes.

Guys... you all forget how central the Cape and FLUDD are to Mario's metagame as his most fantastic edgeguarding options.
But that's about the ONLY use for those two moves. There effectively useless on non-competitive stages with walk-offs, water or the like. And the large ledge grab hitboxes mean they don't work half the time.

I don't want Cappy either, but I have multiple reasons for Mario to get his Ground Pound and Goomba Stomp.
 

AIM0001

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#59
Ganondorf most definitely comes to mind when it comes to misrepresention. Think about all the other major villains like Bowser, King K. Rool, King Dedede, Ridley etc. You look at those move sets and you say, ya that makes sense. They use all their iconic moves, items, or just their presence as a final boss from their respected games are show cased. Though I like Ganondorf I’m general. It’s more because of my love for Zelda and his name alone. When it comes to playing as him, I don’t really enjoy myself as much as I should. You just can’t help but feel like the true essence of Ganondorf is missing. His dark magic being one of the major things.
 

Quillion

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#60
Ganondorf most definitely comes to mind when it comes to misrepresention. Think about all the other major villains like Bowser, King K. Rool, King Dedede, Ridley etc. You look at those move sets and you say, ya that makes sense. They use all their iconic moves, items, or just their presence as a final boss from their respected games are show cased. Though I like Ganondorf I’m general. It’s more because of my love for Zelda and his name alone. When it comes to playing as him, I don’t really enjoy myself as much as I should. You just can’t help but feel like the true essence of Ganondorf is missing. His dark magic being one of the major things.
To be fair, it's a major problem with all of the Zelda characters who aren't a Link. Zelda entirely lost her Light Bow, her now-iconic weapon, and Sheik should not be a thing either.

That said, Zelda's the only one I want changed. Sheik and Ganondorf are just too much fun to be changed, have their movesets shunted off, or to have alt versions with different movesets. Sheik should be kept and Ganondorf should have had a Sword Draw via Shield-B to swap all his normals.
 

Quillion

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#61
I'm late to the party, but I slightly updated my analysis to account for Luigi's Poltergust grab.

Is there anything else I missed?
 

BonafideFella

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#62
I've noticed that there is a lot of complaints regarding Donkey Kong's portrayal. While I understand that there are a few moves that could work better than his current set, I don't find them to be too much of a big deal. Here's a CrappyCaptureDevice video from the Brawl days:


As you can see, nearly everything from DKC1 was brought into DK's moveset. As of Brawl, his hand slap, crouch, and chest pound were all direct recreations of the relevant animations in DKC1. As something that Capture missed, even his jump is a recreation of his jump in DKC1. Smash 4 eventually added the Roll Attack so that DK could finally match Diddy in getting their respective DKC signature attacks.

So considering that so many animations are direct rips from DKC1, and Smash 4 finally brought the roll in, I personally think DK is completely set.
So I'm aware this post is months old at this point but I'd like to exchange my two cents.
The title of the thread is "Do the 64 and Melee veterans have outdated and/or inaccurate portrayals?" Keyword: Outdated.
If most to all of Donkey Kong's moves are ripped from his first appearance (Counting the Rare portrayal as a separate character from the arcade incarnation) with blatant disregard for most to all of his most recent appearances, I'd count that as outdated.
As stated in my last post, the most recent references in DK's moveset that aren't ambigious punches/kicks are his Final Smashes, both influenced by spinoff games. That's like giving Mario a Final Smash based off of Mario Tennis! Then they add salt to our cache by giving him a Final Smash that's nothing more than a flurry of punches and still disregarding the Retro games that did that exact thing verbatim.
large.jpg
So I'd say the hate towards DK's moveset is justified.
 

BXBX

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#63
I don't get how sheik can be "outdated" when as you said she hasn't appeared in other games post melee. At best her status should be inconclusive since most of her moves are original. Also it seems a little hypocritical to give her a negative point about her lacking a harp and a weapon from official artwork, yet give young link a positive record despite not utilizing the ocarina or masks which were key elements from his respective games.
 

Quillion

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#64
So I'm aware this post is months old at this point but I'd like to exchange my two cents.
The title of the thread is "Do the 64 and Melee veterans have outdated and/or inaccurate portrayals?" Keyword: Outdated.
If most to all of Donkey Kong's moves are ripped from his first appearance (Counting the Rare portrayal as a separate character from the arcade incarnation) with blatant disregard for most to all of his most recent appearances, I'd count that as outdated.
As stated in my last post, the most recent references in DK's moveset that aren't ambigious punches/kicks are his Final Smashes, both influenced by spinoff games. That's like giving Mario a Final Smash based off of Mario Tennis! Then they add salt to our cache by giving him a Final Smash that's nothing more than a flurry of punches and still disregarding the Retro games that did that exact thing verbatim.

So I'd say the hate towards DK's moveset is justified.
Well first of all, thank you for reviving this thread. I'm not going to triple post in order to do so myself.

In regards to your question though, what moves from DK's games do you even want for him? DK's only game in the original DKC trilogy was DKC1 itself. And it's not like he does anything particularly differently in DK64, the Paon era games, and the Retro DKC games.

The only real things he could have would be the Barrel Throw and Coconut Gun. But who wants to damage his niche as a heavy pure brawler?

I don't get how sheik can be "outdated" when as you said she hasn't appeared in other games post melee. At best her status should be inconclusive since most of her moves are original. Also it seems a little hypocritical to give her a negative point about her lacking a harp and a weapon from official artwork, yet give young link a positive record despite not utilizing the ocarina or masks which were key elements from his respective games.
I was referring more to how she's a fluke disobeying the unwritten rule forbidding one-shot Zelda characters when I said "outdated by her very existence". Even then, she at least had the knife shuriken that was in one OoT artwork, but that's only in her Final Smash (which I just edited in).

And Young Link has the sword, shield, bow, boomerang, hookshot, and bombs, all of which are the most recurring Zelda items. It's not like it leaves a lot of room for the ocarina and masks.

Seriously, it seems like Sakurai doesn't like the idea of Zelda characters extensively using their signature weapons (whether it be Zelda's Light Bow, Sheik's knife, or Ganondorf's sword). Not that I mind too much, but it admittedly bothers me on a faithfulness level.
 

Arthur97

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#65
I don't like the mindset that they have to reflect their most recent games. There's nothing wrong with Mario having the cape. He doesn't need Cappy.

Besides, it seems highly unlikely many if any will get major overhauls so long as Sakurai is in charge.
 

Quillion

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#66
I don't like the mindset that they have to reflect their most recent games. There's nothing wrong with Mario having the cape. He doesn't need Cappy.

Besides, it seems highly unlikely many if any will get major overhauls so long as Sakurai is in charge.
I think it just boils down to "I want this character to be portrayed this way." There's nothing objectively wrong with Ganondorf having minimal sword use or Zelda having zero Light Bow use. It doesn't really matter that characters don't have their "signature moves/abilities" as long as the spirit of the character is kept intact.
 

Arthur97

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#67
I think it just boils down to "I want this character to be portrayed this way." There's nothing objectively wrong with Ganondorf having minimal sword use or Zelda having zero Light Bow use. It doesn't really matter that characters don't have their "signature moves/abilities" as long as the spirit of the character is kept intact.
Ganondorf is a bit different as he is largely based on a Smash fighter and not himself. This is a cloning issue, not a date issue.
 

BonafideFella

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#68
Well first of all, thank you for reviving this thread. I'm not going to triple post in order to do so myself.

In regards to your question though, what moves from DK's games do you even want for him? DK's only game in the original DKC trilogy was DKC1 itself. And it's not like he does anything particularly differently in DK64, the Paon era games, and the Retro DKC games.
Perhaps I worded myself incorrectly. I meant (This is no fault of yours, I'm known for not being that articulate) that I wanted the animations of the attacks to more closely resemble the current games.
In terms of attacks, I would mostly like his Side Special to be changed since the Headbutt doesn't hail from any particular source material. Maybe a command grab that has DK toss the opponent in question as if he/she was a barrel? If you still want a move that buries opponents, perhaps DK could jump forward like the arcade Donkey Kong, burying opponents on contact. Even though I've voiced my disdain for the bias for Jungle Beat, perhaps he could clap before sending shockwaves forward.
The only real things he could have would be the Barrel Throw and Coconut Gun. But who wants to damage his niche as a heavy pure brawler?
I agree completely. Maybe a Chunky Kong echo could utilize these attacks instead?
 

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#69
Thoughts:

:ultmario: - Mega Mushroom Final Smash
:ultdk: - Blowing animation (Returns/TF) D-Tilt, Barrel Throw Side Special(?)
:ultyoshi: - Mega Eggdozer Final Smash
:ultpikachu: - Iron Tail Side Special
:ultjigglypuff: - Hyper Voice/Twinkle Tackle Final Smash
:ultpeach: - Perry Up Special
:ultdoc: - Viruses Special/Final Smash(?)
:ultmarth: - Shadow Dragon/New Mystery Design (actually wears the Fire Emblem)
:ultmewtwo: - Psycho Cut Jab/F-Tilt
:ultyounglink: - Fierce Deity Final Smash
 

Quillion

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#70
Thoughts:

:ultmario: - Mega Mushroom Final Smash
Come on, there has to be something better than copying an item for a Final Smash.

:ultdk: - Blowing animation (Returns/TF) D-Tilt, Barrel Throw Side Special(?)
Blowing was taken out of TF, though. It was a rather redundant ability anyway.

Also, we discussed how Barrel Throw would gel as poorly with DK's moveset as the sword smashes do with Ganondorf's.

:ultpikachu: - Iron Tail Side Special
Just because this was in the anime doesn't mean this needs to be in Smash. How about something similar to the current move like Wild Charge?

:ultyoshi: - Mega Eggdozer Final Smash
:ultpeach: - Perry Up Special
:ultjigglypuff: - Hyper Voice/Twinkle Tackle Final Smash
:ultdoc: - Viruses Special/Final Smash(?)
:ultmarth: - Shadow Dragon/New Mystery Design (actually wears the Fire Emblem)
:ultmewtwo: - Psycho Cut Jab/F-Tilt
:ultyounglink: - Fierce Deity Final Smash
All of these sound great, though.
 

Arthur97

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#71
I actually do agree with the Fierce Deity. For that matter, cosmetically change his Hookshot to MM's design...even if I don't like it as much.
 

Quillion

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#72
I actually do agree with the Fierce Deity. For that matter, cosmetically change his Hookshot to MM's design...even if I don't like it as much.
Hell, they should have swapped out the Deku Shield for the actual Hero's Shield. The Kokiri Sword can stay, but man that was a missed opportunity.
 

Quillion

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#74
Eh, I'm okay with the Deku Shield. Keep the references for both games.
Personally I just think the Hero's Shield looks better. The Navi taunt and Kokiri Sword would represent OoT just fine.

Speaking of shields, why isn't Link's parry animation the actual parry from BotW? And for that matter, why doesn't Samus have her SR parry either?
 

Dreamking

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#75
I would have given Donkey Kong the coconut gun for his Final Smash and maybe if Peach had received a moveset overhaul based on Super Princess Peach, we could have had Toad in the game.
 
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#76
:ultmario:: We should be getting a full-blown Odyssey Mario and ditch half of his moves. FS should be Dino transformation.
:ultdk:: He should have more moves that actually come from DK and not made up punches, slaps, and headbutts.
:ultlink:: Champions' abilities. 'Nuff said.
:ultkirby:: He should use abilities and other moves from Modern Kirby games instead of recycling everything from Super Star and whatnot.
:ultyounglink:: OOT Link with the slingshot and uses the ocarina to to weird magic and stuff. Fierce Deity for FS.
:ultganondorf:: Make him actually use attacks from Zelda games.
:ultzelda:: See Ganondorf.
:ultfalcon:: I want him to have a falcon on his shoulder that screeches whenever he uses neutral B or lands a KO.
 

Sean²

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#77
Maybe I'm just blowing in the wind, but I've been waiting for years for them to completely strip down the series, cut down the roster hard (like a number somewhere between 64 and Melee), and take the staple characters and start fresh, rebuilding them from the ground up, basing their moves on more recent entries to their series. I figured maybe now that Ultimate exists as it is with figuratively everything we could ask for, it could happen with the next game if one ever gets developed.
 

Arthur97

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#78
Maybe I'm just blowing in the wind, but I've been waiting for years for them to completely strip down the series, cut down the roster hard (like a number somewhere between 64 and Melee), and take the staple characters and start fresh, rebuilding them from the ground up, basing their moves on more recent entries to their series. I figured maybe now that Ultimate exists as it is with figuratively everything we could ask for, it could happen with the next game if one ever gets developed.
That seems like a way to just make fans angry. Only a few like Ganondorf and Lucina need actual overhauls. Why strip the roster down so hard?
 

Sean²

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#79
*Just a disclaimer, I'm ignoring mechanics changes between the previous titles here, and looking at the Smash series as a whole.*

To shake things up, and keep it fresh, I suppose. I love all the smash games, but it's mostly been layer after layer caked on top year after year. How can they top Ultimate? Everyone is here. Just about everything is here. And we're getting DLC. Issues can be fixed via patches. The only thing that needs to be directly improved upon is the online system. And I honestly don't know if I could handle a game with 100+ characters.

Knowing Nintendo, if there's a new Smash in the next 4-8 years, they'll go the safe, Disneyfied route and add another layer on the cake. Which if they do so, I'd probably still play it. But if they strip it down and start fresh, I think it could go one of a couple ways. It could go the route of MVC Infinite (badly), or it could be a big success. It's more risky, and they might make some waves, but I think people would come around eventually if it turns out to be a really solid game.

I'm sold on the idea that not much can really replace Ultimate, besides Ultimate with a better online system. Which is why I suggest something new, then people don't necessarily need to completely dump Ultimate for the new game. We already have had multiple Smash titles featuring at large international events for years now. Why not Ultimate and something new and different?

I mean, every new iteration of Apple product either removes or changes something dramatically and drives people up the wall at the announcement, but the same people keep buying into it regardless. Maybe not the best comparison, idk. I've been awake too long.
 
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