Do the 64 and Melee veterans have outdated and/or inaccurate portrayals?

Quillion

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#1
I've started to see a growing amount of people saying that the characters from the earlier installments of Smash are either heavily outdated or unfaithful to canon. I can certainly see where this is coming from with the super-faithful portrayals of characters in the more recent Smash games, as well as the lower standards that 64 and Melee were held to due to Smash being a fledgling franchise.

But I wanted to analyze the characters from 64 and Melee to put this to the test. So let's go one by one in numerical order:

Smash 64:
  • :ultmario:: Has normals largely based on the fistfighting of Super Mario 64 (jab, d-smash, dash attack are direct recreations), fireball from SMB1, Cape from SMW, and (as of Brawl) FLUDD as of Sunshine. His Mario Tornado indirectly references the Spin Jump from SMW, and Super Jump Punch indirectly references brick breaking by jumping into them from below. His Back and Forward Throws reference the "So Long, King Bowser!" throw from Super Mario 64.
    • Verdict: Good, yet somewhat outdated. Fireballs, the Spin Jump, and brick breaking remain staples of the Mario series to this day, but the ignorance of other staple moves like the Goomba Stomp and Ground Pound as well as the establishment of hammers being Mario's main method of melee combat can't be ignored. That said, one-shot gimmicks like the Star Spin and Cappy aren't necessary now nor in the future.
  • :ultdk:: His walking, running, crouching, and jumping animations are faithful recreations of those in the original Donkey Kong Country. His Hand Slap comes directly from the DKC games, and he got his signature roll attack in Smash 4.
    • Verdict: Very good. It took quite some time to get his roll, but he has all of his major abilities from both the original and newer DKC games covered down to his movement animations. However, some believe that a projectile like the Barrel Throw (actually spawning a barrel) or Coconut Gun would be a major improvement.
  • :ultlink:: Started out as his Ocarina of Time design, got changed to the Twilight Princess design in Brawl, and got changed to the Breath of the Wild design in Ultimate. Pre-Ultimate, his sword, shield, boomerang, bow, bombs, and hookshot/clawshot had all been the most recurring items in Zelda. However, the TP design used the Gale Boomerang, and the BotW design uses Sheikah Slate Remote Bombs, has a double arrow mechanic, loses the hookshot, and is right-handed.
    • Verdict: Very good. At least they had the sense to pick the tools that carried over from ALttP to OoT when they selected his specials, and the Ultimate semi-revamp helps a lot. However, being updated in later Smash games to match later Zelda games could pose a problem with trying to not alienate older and newer fans.
  • :ultsamus:: All of her specials are taken from staple Metroid abilities: Charge Shot, Missiles, Bomb, and Screw Attack. On its own, this would be very good. However, with Mega Man, Villager, and Mii Gunner toting projectile normals, things get a bit muddy.
    • Verdict: Outdated, but only in relation to later Smash characters. Her moveset would've been fine if they continued to reserve projectiles for specials only. But with fellow arm cannon wielders Mega Man and Mii Gunner being projectile powerhouses, Samus seems lacking in comparison.
  • :ultyoshi:: Has his Flutter Jump, Egg Throw, Egg Lay, and Ground Pound, all staple Yoshi moves. Egg Roll is seemingly based on an item that has only appeared in Yoshi's Story, but there doesn't seem to be much else material for a Side-B.
    • Verdict: Very good. There really isn't much else material to work with for Yoshi, but his most recurrent moves are accounted for, and many of his attacking and non-attacking animations are faithfully recreated as well.
  • :ultkirby:: Inhale and Copy are Kirby's signature abilities, Hammer is an iconic Kirby weapon (later modified to be even more faithful the Hammer Flip move), Final Cutter directly comes from the Cutter ability, and Stone works just as it has since Kirby Super Star. His Vulcan Jab and Smash Punch from Fighter are his rapid jab and jab finisher, the Burning Fireball (Burning/Fire) and Break Spin (Yo-yo) have alternately served as his Dash Attack, and his throws come from the Suplex and Ninja abilities.
    • Verdict: Excellent, one of the most faithful characters of the original 12 and uses a wide variety of moves from abilities that continue to be Kirby staples. This is to be expected as Sakurai is also Kirby's creator.
  • :ultfox:: His special moves were meant to symbolize the Arwing at the time: Blaster represents the Arwing's lasers, Fox Illusion and Fire Fox represent the Arwing's boost, and Reflector represents the Arwing's Barrel Roll.
    • Verdict: Outdated. The Blaster was in a secret mode in 64 and later appeared in Assault, and the Reflector seemingly inspired the Barrier item in Assault. None of the items from Adventures or Assault have replaced any of Fox's moves, leaving his moveset an artifact of when it had little material. However, I acknowledge YMMV, since Nintendo seemingly doesn't want to acknowledge any of the non-EPD-made Star Fox games nowadays.
  • :ultpikachu:: His normals are fairly typical melee and electric attacks to be expected from a mouse-type creature. Of all his specials, only Thunder Jolt is not based on any particular Pokémon move. Skull Bash was a TM at one point, while Thunder and Quick Attack have both been part of Pikachu's level-up learnset since Gen 1.
    • Verdict: Good. There isn't much one can do with the attacks in a TBRPG series where both sides are (fairly) static, although the anime's portrayal of the moves has certainly helped. The only real antiquity is Skull Bash remaining in the moveset despite not being a TM since Gen 1.
  • :ultluigi:: His moveset is based on Mario's, so most of what was said about Mario applies to Luigi. However, he copies Pikachu's Skull Bash for his Side-B, and has retained Luigi Cyclone in lieu of gaining some equivalent to FLUDD. (EDIT:) Ultimate finally gives Luigi his Poltergust as a grab after it being only his Final Smash in Smash 4.
    • Verdict: Like Mario, good, yet somewhat outdated. That said, even with Luigi lacking iconic Mario moves like the Ground Pound and Goomba Stomp, it is perhaps best for Luigi to keep his moveset to remain different from Mario. Nintendo's apparent focus on the Poltergust for Luigi's spinoff appearances made the Poltergust's shunting off to Final Smash status rather glaring, but Ultimate has remedied that.
  • :ultness:: Three of his specials, PK Fire, PK Thunder, and PSI Magnet, and his Final Smash, PK Starstorm, are based on attacks that Paula and Poo had instead. Even then, only Starstorm works anything like it does in EarthBound. On the other hand, he uses his Bat for his F-Smash, his PK Flash is present (which again, doesn't work anything like it does in EarthBound), and some of his PSI normals had their sparks reworked in Smash Wii U to resemble PK Rockin'.
    • Verdict: Mixed. As a representation of EarthBound as a whole, Ness works well, representing the attacks of the game's three PSI users (Jeff at least is an assist trophy). And again, it's hard to make attacks in a TBRPG work in Smash. However, as a representation of Ness as himself, it could be argued that Hypnosis, Paralysis, Shield Beta could work better as specials, while PK Rockin' would work better as a Final Smash, making him somewhat outdated.
  • :ultfalcon:: His moveset is entirely made up. Him being the second-fastest character in Smash at least symbolizes the F-Zero spirit of high speed.
    • Verdict: No real comment. You can't really make a faithful representation of someone who has almost nothing to work with in the first place. A canon comic for F-Zero 1 had Falcon use his gun, and the Falcon Punch was referenced in the Story credits music of GX and made an appearance in the anime, but I will treat this potential material as negligible.
  • :ultjigglypuff:: Its normals were originally derived from Kirby back in 64, but they are largely distinct now. Its specials are all based on actual Pokémon moves: Rollout, Rest, Pound, and Sing. They all work fairly similarly to how they do in the games... with the glaring exception of Rest being an attack and not a means of healing.
    • Verdict: Rather Good. Jigglypuff may face the problem of being a TBRPG character, but it adapts those moves well: Rollout rolls without stopping, Pound is a weak slap, and Sing puts opponents to sleep. But I can't get past Rest not having any healing.

Melee:
  • :ultpeach:: She's primarily based on Super Mario Bros. 2, having the jump float and turnip pull from said game. Other than that, her F-Smash seemingly references three spinoffs: tennis racket to Mario Tennis, golf club to Mario Golf, and frying Pan to Super Mario RPG. Her parasol first appeared in Super Mario RPG, so its appearances in the main Mario series may or may not be due to Smash.
    • Verdict: Good. Again, there's not much to work with here. Peach did have her own game in Super Princess Peach, and though nothing has come of that for Smash, it may have inspired her magic-based effects that she has gotten on her moves since Brawl. She also could use many of the staple Mario moves and powerups in Super Mario 3D World, but it's best that she doesn't in Smash so she doesn't become another Mario derivative.
  • :ultbowser:: His Fire Breath and Ground Pound, his two most recurrent and staple moves, are accounted for. He wasn't able to retreat into his shell prior to Melee (AFAIK), but considering Koopas in general have that ability, it can't really be considered a canonized move from Smash. The rest of his moves are rather typical punches and claw strikes that Bowser has used on-and-off in main games and spinoffs alike, and Smash 4 onward adds a few kicks. His original depiction from Melee-Brawl had a hunched, kaiju-like stance with fittingly monstrous moves, but his Smash 4-onward depiction is more humanoid, which matches his later depictions.
    • Verdict: Very Good. Both Melee and Smash 4 interpretations capture the spirit of what Bowser and the Koopas in general can do throughout the series. Some are torn on Fire Breath being a short-ranged stream as opposed to the long-ranged projectiles that are more commonly seen in canon, though this is also a viability issue as a fighter.
  • :ulticeclimbers:: They wield their hammers, and they can fling the ice blocks that Topis use to repair the mountain. That's pretty much it as far as their abilities go for their entire existence prior to Smash. However, their double character gimmick is in reference to Ice Climber being one of the few NES games to have simultaneous multiplayer at the time, so there is value even to that. Some of their non-attack animations such as those for jumping and losing are also recreated from their game.
    • Verdict: Good. Again, there's not much to work with, so they pretty much maximized the potential of what was available.
  • :ultsheik:: She's the only Zelda character to appear in a single main Zelda game, but she somehow gets effectively original designs in the post-Melee games. Her moveset is almost entirely original to Smash; her only canon move is her Vanish, but even this wasn't an attack in the first place. The most I can say is that she has the knife shuriken wielded in one piece of artwork, but only in her new Final Smash.
    • Verdict: Outdated by her very existence. One-shot Zelda characters are now Assist Trophies at best from Brawl onward, but Sheik remains playable. Also, she has no taunt nor victory animation where she uses her harp.
  • :ultzelda:: Zelda doesn't have much to work with as she's mainly a noncombatant in canon, so she was made the designated mage of the Zelda cast by virtue of using some magic in a few games. To this end, she uses almost in-name-only variants of the Goddess spells that Link could use in OoT. However, when the Light Bow was established to be Zelda's signature weapon over the course of three main Zelda games, Smash reflected that by giving that to her as her Final Smash. And then she lost said Final Smash in favor of the Triforce of Wisdom, itself not really a weapon in the first place.
    • Verdict: Very outdated. Goddess Spells are understandable because they fit with Zelda's spiritual image. Said spells not working anything like they do in canon is also understandable since 1:1 recreations of their functions in OoT would not work in Smash. But again, with Mega Man, Mii Gunner, and Villager making fairly extensive use of projectile normals, her Light Bow could have been a good way to use them.
  • :ultdoc:: His only real canon ability is throwing Megavitamins, which is accounted for. Otherwise, he's a fairly straight echo of Melee Mario. Strangely, Ultimate grants him the Goomba Stomp that the Mario Bros. should logically get, yet the latter stick with their respective down-Bs and down-airs as of Brawl.
    • Verdict: Good, again as far as having little to work with. Him getting the Goomba Stomp as opposed to vanilla Mario is rather questionable, though...
  • :ultpichu:: It's a semi-echo of Pikachu, so everything about him applies to Pichu as well. Pichu also has the self-damage gimmick so as to reference its Gen II Pokédex entries stating that its electric abilities can harm itself, though this doesn't come up in the Pokémon main series' gameplay at all.
    • Verdict: Good. Again, everything stated about Pikachu applies, though Pichu shouldn't be able to use Skull Bash at all.
  • :ultfalco:: A semi-echo of Fox. Yes, he has diverged in terms of animations and move functions, but none of his changes have brought him any closer to canon than Fox.
    • Verdict: Outdated. See Fox.
  • :ultmarth:: He uses the Falchion, and some of his animations resemble those from his games. For instance, his stance, walk, and forward tilt are recreations of his regular attack animations in the original Shadow Dragon. His Shield Breaker animation from Brawl onward resembles his stab with a regular sword in the original Mystery of the Emblem. And according to Sakurai, the standard Fire Emblem counter symbolizes how much of the combat takes place in response to the enemy on their phase.
    • Verdict: Good. There isn't much to work with for any of Marth's games since Skills weren't a thing in them, and even then, Fire Emblem is even harder to work with than TBRPGs in bringing in move functions since actions aren't selected before they are done. But even then, his animations pay faithful tribute to what he can do in all of his games.
  • :ultyounglink:: He has the same animations and moves as Link in Melee. Only difference being his use of the Kokiri Sword and Deku Shield, and his arrows are Fire Arrows.
    • Verdict: Like current Link, Very Good. In fact, him being the designated representative of the twin games of OoT and MM enhances his faithfulness to canon.
  • :ultganondorf:: The one you've all been waiting for. He was introduced in Melee at the last minute when his Ganondorf form's only appearance was in Ocarina of Time, and was made an echo of Captain Falcon on the grounds that they had the same body type. However, Ganondorf in OoT didn't exactly have a broad repertoire of attacks. So, as Super Jump Punch was extrapolated from Mario's brick breaking, Ganondorf's magic-charged punches could be extrapolated from his floor punch in OoT and Melee could safely neglect his other abilities. Ganondorf's subsequent appearances in Wind Waker and Twilight Princess gave him other barehanded moves such as kicks, punches, and chokes, and so Ganondorf's animations were semi-revamped in Brawl to resemble these moves. By Ultimate, an growing vocal demand to have Ganondorf use his sword like in said recent games gave him the sword used by him in a GameCube tech demo shown in 2001 (though this sword made a few cosmetic appearances in Melee beforehand), but the moves using said sword are ripped from Ike and Cloud. That said, his new F-Smash coincidentally resembles the "Chance" attack that he used in Twilight Princess.
    • Verdict: Extremely outdated, and wasn't faithful in the first place. Ganon as a whole (both Ganon and Ganondorf forms) has been known for evil magical powers since day 1, and as of ALttP, he has also been known for the use of bladed weapons (with Ganon being more associated with a trident and Ganondorf with swords). Not only that, with Ganondorf becoming a staple character of Smash, being modeled after a last-minute derivation of Captain Falcon's moveset to this day seems nonsensical. Ganon's portrayal in all forms continues to emphasize weapon use and magical attacks over brawling to this day. While he does have a history of using arm and leg attacks, they have always been nothing more than a mixup with his usual swordfighting style; even his mindless cyborg Calamity Ganon form had swords and magical attacks with no punch or kick in sight.
  • :ultmewtwo:: Mewtwo in Smash is mainly based on its most popular depiction, which is that of the first Pokémon anime movie. Its specials are all established Pokémon moves: Shadow Ball, Confusion, Teleport, and Disable. Only two of these moves, Confusion and Disable are part of its natural learnset. The other two, Shadow Ball and Teleport, are/were TMs, but the former was used by Mewtwo in the movie. For its Final Smash, it gets more recent additions: to transform into the Game Freak-favored Mega Y form (as opposed to the less-promoted Mega X) and its signature move Psystrike.
    • Verdict: Very good in terms of representing the anime incarnation, though its reappearance in Smash 4 necessitated some modifications the happened after its last major appearance in the anime. It should be noted that certain other depictions of Mewtwo such as in the Origins anime and Pokkén have been closer to the depiction of the games where it is merely a solitary, dangerous, and feral creature.
  • :ultroy:: His moveset in Melee was based on Marth's, and he got many animation revamps in Smash 4. He wields his signature Binding Blade much like Marth with his Falchion, and said weapon retains the fire effects that it has in canon. His Flare Blade may be based on the Binding Blade's critical hit animation, which is ironic when the actual critical hit became his Final Smash. For his revamped animations, only his forward tilt seems to have any basis in FE6, being based on his attack with a regular sword.
    • Verdict: Good. As far as I can tell, there's even less to work with for Roy than Marth, making it difficult to adapt his FE6 animations into Smash. With that in mind, Marth's animations work fine to fill in the gaps, and his newer animations at least capture the spirit of his fighting style in FE6 (which, as a GBA Fire Emblem, has fantastic animations).
  • :ultgnw:: His base character model is based on the falling civilians from Fire, while every single move in his repertoire has basis in a Game & Watch game (identifying all of them will take too much time). Moreover, Ultimate has his model morph completely into the characters from their respective games.
    • Verdict: Excellent. Mr. G&W's portrayal takes advantage of material from many of the G&W games, most of which didn't involve combat in the first place, and Ultimate further enhances it. Other than Kirby, he is the character most faithfully representative of his home franchise. As he is implied to be one of the last characters developed in Melee excluding the (semi-)echoes, Mr. G&W is likely the transition to the more meticulously crafted portrayals of Brawl and onward.
So from this long analysis, it seems that only six of these 26 characters are outdated in a potentially negative way: Samus, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Zelda, and Ganondorf. Even then, only the three Zelda characters who aren't a Link are unambiguously outdated. Mario and Luigi noticeably lack certain moves that have become iconic to them (the Goomba Stomp and Ground Pound, and Luigi's Poltergust is a mere Final Smash), but their portrayals still reflect their current canon selves anyhow. The rest of the cast maximizes the potential of their material, although much of them don't really have much to work with.

My final verdict is that aside from those six potentially negatively outdated characters, the 64 and Melee veterans are fantastic and relevant portrayals as they are currently.

So what do you think of the portrayals of the earlier Smash veterans? Is there more that can be done with any of them? Do only those six characters need a big revamp, or should everyone get one?

EDIT: Slight alteration to Doc's analysis, Luigi's Poltergust grab. Mario's back and forward throws.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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#3
I want to add something in regards to Fox. Similar to Captain Falcon, he spends most of his games inside a vehicle and almost never engages in hand to hand combat so he barely has a move set of his own to work with. It’s true that he uses several firearms in Assault but it would be kind of jarring see him shift to an artillery fighter.
Blaster is pretty much a mandatory weapon for a mercenary in an space setting like in Star Wars, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc. His illusion and fire fox are references to foxes from Japanese folklore, which Fox happens to be based of. And him having a move set centered around kicks is a reference to his allegedly prosthetic legs.

Besides that, Fox hasn’t gained much over the years to incorporate into hi Smash incarnation. They could fully implement the staff but that would change the character so much that it would probably alienate his players.


As for Samus , I do wish she stole mii gunner’s side smash and down smash.
 
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Quillion

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#5
Pikachu's Final Smash should have been changed to Catastropika.
Well, it seems like a good idea, but Volt Tackle is already a very powerful attack on its own, and it's forever tied to the Pikachu line. And while Z-Moves will likely be a big part of Pokémon in the future, Volt Tackle really wins out as Final Smash material on the grounds of being around longer.

That said, since Catastropika is a powered up Volt Tackle, I think it would have been a good idea to make his Final Smash end in an explosive Ground Pound, which would reference Catastropika.

I want to add something in regards to Fox. Similar to Captain Falcon, he spends most of his games inside a vehicle and almost never engages in hand to hand combat so he barely has a move set of his own to work with. It’s true that he uses several firearms in Assault but it would be kind of jarring see him shift to an artillery fighter.
Blaster is pretty much a mandatory weapon for a mercenary in an space setting like in Star Wars, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc. His illusion and fire fox are references to foxes from Japanese folklore, which Fox happens to be based of. And him having a move set centered around kicks is a reference to his allegedly prosthetic legs.
Again, the Blaster first made an appearance in a secret multiplayer mode for SF64, so at least that's a canon move. But yes, I did forget that his moveset references the folklore surrounding foxes in Japan.

Besides that, Fox hasn’t gained much over the years to incorporate into hi Smash incarnation. They could fully implement the staff but that would change the character so much that it would probably alienate his players.
There is the jetpack from Assault multiplayer that could work as Up B. Down B could be revamped to be the Barrier from Assault. Side B doesn't have much options though...

As for Samus , I do wish she stole mii gunner’s side smash and down smash.
Agreed, plus she should rip Mega Man's jab and "walking jab".
 

BonafideFella

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#6
Not misrepresented, perhaps, but definitely would've been done differently if they were newcomers today.
In my mind, the problem is that these characters aren't just veterans to their own series, they're Smash Bros veterans. Any major alterations would be jarring considering they're staples to the series.
 

Quillion

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#7
Not misrepresented, perhaps, but definitely would've been done differently if they were newcomers today.
In my mind, the problem is that these characters aren't just veterans to their own series, they're Smash Bros veterans. Any major alterations would be jarring considering they're staples to the series.
Fox, Falco, Samus, Zelda, and Ganondorf would definitely be different since those characters have gotten so many great tools throughout the years, and Sheik wouldn't even exist.

But how would the 20 other characters be different? Most of them are short on canonical material to begin with.

But I agree that there is a massive ethics issue when it comes to giving veterans massive updates. There's no denying that they could overhaul the veterans if they wanted to, but with the risk of fans raising a big stink, the real question is if they should do so.

I honestly think Bowser's Smash 4 revamp and Link's Ultimate revamp overstepped that boundary, and I wish they would go back to the way I wanted them, so even I'm in the camp that's against vet overhaul.
 

Zyphyris

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#9
I feel Samus could use the same treatment Sakurai gave to the Smash For newcomers in making her feel more and play like the game she comes from. Adding in special properties like speedbooster kicking in after dashing a certain distance, locking yourself in crouch position with just one input (and then pressing down again to activate your morph ball), infinite bomb jumping, along with other abilities would be pretty slick honestly. Charge Beam also needs a rework so it's charged by holding on B rather than tapping it once and automatically charging. These are just a few ideas I have in mind.
 
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#10
  • :ultsheik:: She's the only Zelda character to appear in a single main Zelda game, but she somehow gets effectively original designs in the post-Melee games. Her moveset is almost entirely original to Smash; her only canon move is her Vanish, but even this wasn't an attack in the first place.
    • Verdict: Outdated by her very existence. One-shot Zelda characters are now Assist Trophies at best from Brawl onward, but Sheik remains playable. She also lacks the knife shuriken seen in one official artwork of OoT and fights bare-handed in her normals. Also, she has no taunt nor victory animation where she uses her harp.

So what do you think of the portrayals of the earlier Smash veterans? Is there more that can be done with any of them? Do only those six characters need a big revamp, or should everyone get one?
Zelda should get a hard revamp. Preferably give her a moveset resembling her Hyrule Warriors abilities. Ganondorf needs to donate his moveset to someone else if he wants a revamp. Sheik, Fox and Falco do nothing for me, so idc what Smash does with them after Ultimate.

Samus is probably the weirdest case. My biggest problem with Power Suit Samus is that her Down and Side special are kinda... crap. Like, the regular missiles are so slow and inaccurate that I'd rather they just go away permanently and have Samus' Side-B be Super Missiles regardless of how you fire them, and the bombs are so passive and tiny that I'd rather that Samus to just be given the Power Bomb for her Down-B instead. Maybe make it so that it doesn't deal knockback of any kind to balance it.
 
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Quillion

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#13
So it's a Catch-22 of either "make samus completely worthless in competitive" or "have two special moves that aren't fun to use," then?

Darn. Okay, forget I said anything.
Samus's specials could certainly be buffed; I personally have the idea of having her being able to fire three missiles in a row.

But I really think her issue is that her normals don't take advantage of her gun. This is especially egregious since ZSS is supposed to be the melee Samus and Varia Samus is supposed to be the zoning Samus, but the latter's moveset doesn't take advantage of the distinction.
 
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#14
So it's a Catch-22 of either "make samus completely worthless in competitive" or "have two special moves that aren't fun to use," then?

Darn. Okay, forget I said anything.
That's quite an overreaction there.

Personally, I would rework those two moves to be a lot more advanced in how they work. I even came up with this revamp of Samus here

To save you trouble, here was the new Neutral B, Side B and Down B I came up with. (The Neutral-B is mentioned because it works with the new Side-B)

-------------------------------------------------------

:GCB:Neutral-B:

  • New move: Power Beam: Samus will shoot balls of energy in front of her at high speeds and in rapid succession. Can be charged up for about a second to make a stronger blast, or can be stored by shielding.
    • Can also shoot and charge in midair
    • Can also jump and double jump while in shooting animation on the ground
      • Because of this, you cannot cancel the charging with jump
  • Power Beam is highly unsafe on shield and deals almost no shield damage both charged and uncharged
  • Power Beam has slight startup and average endlag
  • Power Beam Charge shot takes around a second to fully charge
  • Shoots at a maximum rate of about 2.5 shots per second when rapid firing
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Regular shot: 1.2%
    • <20% charged shot: 3.1%
    • 21%-50% charged shot: 6.6%
    • 51%-99% charged shot: 10.0%
    • Maximum charge: 15.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Regular shot: 999%
    • <20% charged shot: 200%
    • 21%-50% charged shot: 160%
    • 51%-99% charged shot: 110%
    • Maximum charge: 85%
  • Power Beam can cancel into Side-B while charging

-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

:GCL::GCB::GCR:Side-B:

  • New sequence: Missile: Will quickly shoot a homing missile in front of Samus. Using this while Power Beam is partially charged or fully charged will create a Super Missile that has different effects depending on the direction the control stick is placed before shooting it
    • Charged Side-B with control stick forward will create a Super Missile, traveling very fast without homing properties along with a heavy increase in damage, shield damage, and knockback
    • Charged Side-B with control stick backwards will create a Flamethrower, causing a very brief mid range line of fire dealing heavy shield damage and high damage over time on the opponent. Deals almost no knockback
    • Charged Side-B with control stick upwards will create a Wave Buster, causing a very fast homing laser that if an opponent gets hit by, will cause them to be stunned for a short period of time and be pulled towards Samus slightly. Deals low shield damage but quite high regular damage
    • Charged Side-B with control stick downwards will create an Ice Spreader, creating a slow missile similar in speed to the homing one that will eventually explode in a wide area and cause any hit enemies to freeze for a brief period of time, knocking them up in the air. Deals almost no damage, but has a high amount of knockback
  • Missile when charged is very safe on shield, while uncharged it is not
  • Has high startup and lower than average endlag
  • Can be used in midair with the same frame data and will slow Samus' descent
  • Uncharged Missiles can be aimed using the control stick similar to the charged modes in the four cardinal directions
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Homing Missile: 6.0%
    • Super Missile: 13.7%-21.7%
    • Flamethrower: 0.4%-1.3%*10
    • Flamethrower damage over time: 1.2%*8 over 4 seconds
      • Total Flamethrower damage: 15.6%-22.6%
    • Wave Buster: 13.0%-20.4%
    • Ice Spreader: 6.5%-9.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Homing Missile: 400%
    • Super Missile: 110%-70%
    • Flamethrower: 999%
    • Wave Buster: 999%
    • Ice Spreader: 85%-60%

-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

:GCD::GCB:Down-B:

  • New move: Morph Ball: Will turn into her famous Morph Ball form, allowing her to roll around for a brief time at her walking speed with a much smaller hurtbox. Can do different moves depending on the button pressed during it. After doing one of these moves, she will automatically exit Morph Ball shortly afterwards
    • Normal Attack Button: Will drop a Power Bomb, which will explode about 1.5 seconds after planting it, causing an explosion similar to the Smart Bomb
    • Special Button: Will drop a normal Morph Ball Bomb, which will behave how it does in Smash 4, allowing Samus to potentially Bomb Hop before she exits Morph Ball
    • Jump Button: Will jump a short distance up with Morph Ball Boost, causing damage. This can only be done once before hitting the ground, but will not count as a double jump
    • Down-B again will prematurely end the Morph Ball
  • Has very low startup and can act as a pseudo-dodge.
  • Morph Ball rolls around the same speed as Samus walking. She cannot dash in this state.
  • Morphing back to do another move has low endlag, but the cooldown to morph again right after is much higher
  • Power Bomb would deal significant shield damage and knockback
  • Morph Ball Bomb would deal high shield damage, but low shield stun
  • Morph Ball Boost would drag the enemy upwards with Samus
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Morph Ball Bomb contact: 4.0%
    • Morph Ball Bomb explosion: 5.5%
    • Power Bomb explosion: 1.9%*9
    • Power Bomb Total: 17.1%
    • Morph Ball Boost: 7.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Power Bomb: 90%
    • Morph Ball Boost: 165%

-------------------------------------------------------
The basic idea was to tie in a bunch of tools to one move for each one. Like the new Down-B is just Morph Ball, but you can do three extra moves out of it. I don't think that's a thing yet in this game (if my memory serves).
 

Quillion

Smash Master
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Messages
3,216
#16
Did you at least read the final verdict at the end of my post? Only 3 out of 26 fighters are unambiguously outdated (Zelda, Sheik, and Ganon), while another 3 (Samus, Fox, and Falco) are ambiguously outdated.

It's hard to imagine if anyone would be different if they were introduced in later games. Mr. G&W and Kirby in particular are about on-par with characters like WFT, Villager, Ryu, and Bayonetta.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

Smash the State
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Messages
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#17
Did you at least read the final verdict at the end of my post? Only 3 out of 26 fighters are unambiguously outdated (Zelda, Sheik, and Ganon), while another 3 (Samus, Fox, and Falco) are ambiguously outdated.

It's hard to imagine if anyone would be different if they were introduced in later games. Mr. G&W and Kirby in particular are about on-par with characters like WFT, Villager, Ryu, and Bayonetta.
I don't know what you want from me. This topic has been discussed before.
 

Crystanium

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#19
:ultmario:
The thing about Mario is that if he had Ground Pound for his down special, he'd be much like Bowser and Yoshi. However, Bowser is the first to actually display this ability in Super Mario Bros. 3. After Super Mario 64, Mario had the ability to ground pound. He had Mario Tornado for a down special, but this seems odd, since his d-air was visually similar, though it functioned differently. I think his forward and down special could be changed, but I'm not sure what they could be changed into. Mario doesn't need more projectiles, since he has fireballs. His down special could be Mario Tornado, while his d-air could be swapped out for something else. Perhaps forward special could be Rocket Flower, rather than Cape.

:ultdk:
To make Donkey Kong a complete character faithful to his source material, I think his up special should be Blast Barrel. His current up special only makes sense for Dixie Kong, who isn't even in the game.

:ultsamus:
I have to disagree with you about Samus. I prefer that she's not like Mega Man. Her recent games reveal that she's more than capable of dealing with opponents in CQC. Characters like Mega Man and Villager have problems of their own. Mega Man's standard neutral, n-air, and f-air are all the same attack. This is lazy. Villager relies like 80% to 90% on f-air and b-air, which are also both the same attacks. Also lazy. Samus' projectiles need to be buffed more. Homing missiles need to home better. Super missiles need to kill. Charge Shot needs to have more knock-back, considering it takes over 2 seconds to charge and can easily be stopped with a shield or a dodge. The trade-off is definitely not worth it. It'd be nice if Samus could actually get in and kick her opponent's *** without having to rely on running off.

:ultyoshi:
Yoshi needs to be updated. His aerial movement needs to be toned down a bit, since his flutter jump makes him significantly slower. The use of super armor needs to be dropped. Instead, Yoshi should have a third jump, similar to Pit's, Dark Pit's, and Rosalina's up special. This can be done by Yoshi using wings. While his final smash allows him to use his wings, that's not enough to reject the third jump. After all, Diddy Kong uses his rocketbarrel for both his up special and during his final smash. Even refusing this, the super armor could be dropped and Yoshi could tether grab with his tongue. In Yoshi's Story, he's able to use his tongue to grab onto these red, spherical objects and pull himself up. Hell, he can do that in Super Mario Odyssey. Egg Roll should be replaced with Egg Toss and function similarly to Palutena's Auto-reticle.
 
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Quillion

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#20
I have an example of the inverse: Wario. If he'd been in melee he could've been adapted from Wario Land and been a good representation of that character, but because Sakurai used his Wario Ware appearance he ended up just kind of making a lot of **** up
I have a personal theory that Sakurai actively avoids referencing the Wario Land series because he views it as a mere extension of the Mario series and giving him little identity compared to the WarioWare series. He actually said that if Wario were to be in Melee, he would be the Mario clone instead of Doc, but this doesn't provide proof whether he wanted Wario in Melee or not.

That said, it seems that complaints against Wario's portrayal have seemingly forced Sakurai to bring back the Shoulder Bash, but it was moved to his Dash Attack where the animation is honestly more fitting.

:ultmario:
The thing about Mario is that if he had Ground Pound for his down special, he'd be much like Bowser and Yoshi. However, Bowser is the first to actually display this ability in Super Mario Bros. 3. After Super Mario 64, Mario had the ability to ground pound. He had Mario Tornado for a down special, but this seems odd, since his d-air was visually similar, though it functioned differently. I think his forward and down special could be changed, but I'm not sure what they could be changed into. Mario doesn't need more projectiles, since he has fireballs. His down special could be Mario Tornado, while his d-air could be swapped out for something else. Perhaps forward special could be Rocket Flower, rather than Cape.
No he wouldn't; even with a Ground Pound he still has the rest of his Shoto-derived moves to keep him distinct from Bowser and Yoshi.

My view is that if Mario were semi-revamped to be "max canon", Down-B would be Ground Pound, Side-B would be Star Spin/Mario Tornado/any number of other similar spinning moves with items like the cape, and Down-Air would be Goomba Stomp. Everything else could remain the same.

:ultdk:
To make Donkey Kong a complete character faithful to his source material, I think his up special should be Blast Barrel. His current up special only makes sense for Dixie Kong, who isn't even in the game.
I kinda think it makes sense regarding how DK was originally representing the entire DKC series until Diddy and K. Rool came on the scene. Dixie could be a Chrom-like Echo where she has most of Diddy's animations but has Spinning Kong as her Up-B.

I just think the only questionable move is the Headbutt, which doesn't make sense in DK at all.

:ultsamus:
I have to disagree with you about Samus. I prefer that she's not like Mega Man. Her recent games reveal that she's more than capable of dealing with opponents in CQC. Characters like Mega Man and Villager have problems of their own. Mega Man's standard neutral, n-air, and f-air are all the same attack. This is lazy. Villager relies like 80% to 90% on f-air and b-air, which are also both the same attacks. Also lazy. Samus' projectiles need to be buffed more. Homing missiles need to home better. Super missiles need to kill. Charge Shot needs to have more knock-back, considering it takes over 2 seconds to charge and can easily be stopped with a shield or a dodge. The trade-off is definitely not worth it. It'd be nice if Samus could actually get in and kick her opponent's *** without having to rely on running off.
I did say that if it weren't for Smash introducing more projectile normals, Samus would be very good, or even excellent. Smash 4 has a major problem with playstyle linearity in general, so the overreliance of those two characters on those moves is just a problem with Smash 4 itself.

I know I didn't mention this, but I feel the problem lies more in how Samus is supposed to be the long-range projectile zoner and ZSS is supposed to be the close-range rushdown fighter. For ZSS, her entire moveset revolves around her rushdown nature, but for Samus, only three of her specials encourage this while most of her normals are intentionally bad just to make her projectiles seem better. This is why I prefer that Samus' moveset be changed to resemble Mega Man's and Mii Gunner's moveset more; the de-emphasis on close-range brawling would help differentiate her from ZSS.

:ultyoshi:
Yoshi needs to be updated. His aerial movement needs to be toned down a bit, since his flutter jump makes him significantly slower. The use of super armor needs to be dropped. Instead, Yoshi should have a third jump, similar to Pit's, Dark Pit's, and Rosalina's up special. This can be done by Yoshi using wings. While his final smash allows him to use his wings, that's not enough to reject the third jump. After all, Diddy Kong uses his rocketbarrel for both his up special and during his final smash. Even refusing this, the super armor could be dropped and Yoshi could tether grab with his tongue. In Yoshi's Story, he's able to use his tongue to grab onto these red, spherical objects and pull himself up. Hell, he can do that in Super Mario Odyssey. Egg Roll should be replaced with Egg Toss and function similarly to Palutena's Auto-reticle.
Tether grab with his tongue sounds great, but I think his overall design is already well suited to his canon.
 

Luigifan18

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#21
If the developers really want Power Suit Samus to remain a melee character with strong projectiles, they should give her the Melee Counter from Samus Returns, so if someone tries to hit her while she's charging a Smash Attack or her Charge Shot, she smacks them with her Arm Cannon and then shoots them in the face with a super-powerful Charge Shot at point-blank range.

Also, why do people here want to take FLUDD and the Cape away from Mario? Those are two of his best tools.
 
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kylexv

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#22
  • :ultmario: could maybe use an update and add a few moves from 3D Mario games, such as a dive for a dash attack, Ground Pound for down-air, Galaxy and Odyssey stuff, etc. Mario Finale is really generic too.
  • :ultdk:'s specials don't really portray anything from his games at all. Nothing with barrels, which I see especially odd
  • :ultlink: feels like an accurate portrayal
  • :ultsamus: could have used an updated design this time around, and her Final Smash could at least reference something from her games.
  • :ultyoshi: is pretty much fine now
  • :ultkirby: is pretty much perfect
  • :ultfox: doesn't really have much to move over to his moveset, so he's fine
  • :ultpikachu: still has Skull Bash, which it could only learn in Gen 1. Maybe change it to Volt Tackle and have its Final Smash be one of its Z-Moves
  • :ultluigi:needs to use the Poltergust more
  • :ultness: is fine
  • :ultfalcon: is fine, since he had no source material
  • :ultjigglypuff: could probably use more sound-based moves in my opinion. Rollout feels jank.
 

Fell God

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#23
The most egregious misrepresentation for Samus is using her Other M design instead of either Prime or Samus Returns (though the latter might have had the disadvantage of being too new at the time)
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#24
Unfortunately, the current voice portrayals for Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, and Bowser do not stay true to their portrayals in the Mario spin-offs. The Wii version of Punch-Out!! at least had the decency to allow Donkey Kong to keep Takashi Nagasako's voice portrayal of him.
 

Crystanium

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#25
The most egregious misrepresentation for Samus is using her Other M design instead of either Prime or Samus Returns (though the latter might have had the disadvantage of being too new at the time)
Without saying Metroid: Other M being a bad game is your reason, why?
 

Northadox

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#26
Just gonna go over some vets that I have somethings to say about:
  • :ultmario: Mario
    • Consensus: Mildly outdated, but understandably. He's the baseline fighter for the Smash games and has been so since the original, but I can't shake the feeling that some of his moves don't feel as strongly implemented as others. While the Cape is an iconic power-up from SMW, its reflective capabilities and the way Mario handles it doesn't feel right to me. The moveset also tends to gloss over Mario's other abilities, such as his hammers that he often uses as melee attacks, or the fact that Super Jump Punch hardly feels like a proper implementation of Mario's offensive jumping capabilities.
    • Reasons/Fixes: I think Mario's specials should all borrow moves that Mario performs from his iconic platforming appearances, and all other moves should try and directly derive moves from his vast collection of games. While he is the "staple" of Smash, I would personally prefer if he had a moveset taking a lot from his games instead of anything else. If you have to make up a move for Mario, chances are you're not looking at his massive history. Some changes I propose:
      • F.L.U.D.D. would be moved to Mario's Up Special instead of his Down Special with a quick Hover Nozzle recovery. It would feel so right.
      • The Cape would be replaced with the Star-Spin from Mario Galaxy 1 & 2 and would be moved to his Down Special. It would essentially act like the Cape already does, but with something that more accurately performs its functions of reflecting projectiles & giving Mario a small boost in the air.
      • Cappy would finally be a part of Mario's moveset in the form of a Side Special. It would function as a projectile and even a handy platforming tool to gain a boost.
      • Mario's Forward Smash would be a Hammer wallop instead of the weird fire-explosion he does.
      • Mario's Down Air would be the Ground Pound. It's a risky move that would pack a punch, spiking fighters off stage, but would sent Mario plummeting downwards, ala Greninja's Down Air.
      • Mario's footstools now deal a bit of damage. C'mon, now.
  • :ultdk: - Donkey Kong
    • Consensus: Just a bit weak, but ultimately decent. I'm sure there are more unique attacks to pull from his games than there are now, but as it is he's fine.
    • Reasons/Fixes: Some moves and elements from DKC and DK64 could surely be implemented in his moveset.
      • Side Special could definitely be a Barrel Toss instead of Headbutt - that's something he has been known for doing ever since his first appearance.
      • Up Special could be a Barrel Blast instead of Spinning Kong. it'd be a much better fitting recovery. It's not like he needs a bad recovery; his weakness is that he's total combo food.
      • Where is his glorious voice? I know Sakurai likes animal noises for these heavy characters, but I'd much prefer the cartoony Donkey Kong we know and love.
  • :ultsamus: - Samus
    • Consensus: By far the weakest representation of all Smash originals, I'd say. The moves she does have do reference her games, but there's a lot of her moveset that just doesn't feel right at all
    • Reasons/Fixes: Now I haven't played too many Metroid games, but from what I have observed there are a lot of cool things from her games you could implement in Smash:
      • Crawling. Just let her duck and go into a morph ball while moving, please. It shouldn't just be locked to her Down Special. It'd be fun to mess with your opponents by doing this ala Jigglypuff/Kirby.
      • I'm not sure why Samus is so floaty, considering how tight her controls are in her games. Make her a fast faller!
      • How about implementing the Speed Booster into her running somehow? Make it a unique mechanic where if she runs far enough (around the length of Final Destination), she gains a huge burst of speed, which could be stored temporarily via crouching and then unleashed with a super-powerful Shinespark which would function just as it does in the games? Samus would launch herself at super-fast speeds, and if the attack hits, it could be as strong as a Warlock Punch, but if it doesn't, Samus would go flying off stage to a likely SD?
      • Project M has this, but what about a beam swapping mechanic? The Ice Beam and Plasma Beam need some love.
      • Change up her design! Why not her suit from Samus Returns instead of Other M? Why not make her alts her many different suits?
  • :ultkirby: - Kirby
    • Consensus: Alright, but maybe a little weak. He does loan a lot from his popular Copy Abilities, but I feel like the selection we have feels a bit lacking.
    • Reasons/Fixes: His tilts and aerials definitely can pull some moves from his other Copy Abilities, as the Kirby games somewhat have a similar control style to Smash already, with its many moves yet with minimal button presses needed in order to execute them. The moves he has for these inputs feel really generic. Here's what I got:
      • Neutral Aerial - the Sword Spin. I don't know where that spin he uses already comes from.
      • Down Aerial - Pinpoint Kick from Suplex. Quick move that would send Kirby straight down with a fearsome yet rather weak kick. Similar to Greninja's down aerial, but even more quick.
      • Forward Aerial - Beam Blast. Kirby would send many energy bolts downward and diagonally, but these itself would be very weak.
      • Side Tilt - Parasol Spin. It could even function like the games where if you hold it down it'll keep spinning.
      • Down Tilt - Slide. This is so obvious and I don't know why he only has the stationary kick. Characters like Cloud and the Belmonts get a move that is exactly how Kirby's should be. It would be the exact same input as in his games!
      • Dash Grab - Make it like...well, the Suplex's Dash Grab! Have Kirby lunge forward in a similar fashion as he does with the Suplex ability already. Also, give his throws the SFX of Suplex from Super Star. Would be the most satisfying thing ever.
      • I could go on and on. In the end, it really should be easy to make each and every one of Kirby's moves all borrowing something from his games - there are so many moves to choose from!
Might update this in the future if I manage the effort.
 

BonafideFella

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#28
:ultmario:- Could use a more generalized update. Most people suggest a Odyssey-based cap throw to replace the cape and/or F.L.U.D.D, which I think is ridiculous. The reason people want those moves replaced is the fact that they feel like "dated" references, but if the Cappy mechanic doesn't become a permanent series fixture, that's exactly what the aforesaid cap throw will become!
If they still want a reflecting maneuver, perhaps they could call back to Mario Kart and have a giant Green Shell spin around Mario, reflecting or just blocking projectiles. For his down special, you could go for a more relative reference since Mario is usually associated with hammers, so why not have him throw a few hammers around in an arc ala Super Mario Bros 3?
Everything else is a pretty accurate representation. They can't give Mario too many crazy abilities, lest they lose the all-arounder dynamic they've been going for past 20 years.

:ultdk:- Don't know how I feel. My theory is that to further differentiate themselves from Rare's version of Donkey Kong, They used the design philosophy of the character from the pre-Rare era, and what was the character like before DKC? A big, heavy brute, which Smash depicted very well 64/Melee. However, it's almost like they think of Country DK as a third-party because they deliberately ignored the Country trilogy for Final Smash material and for what? Donkey Konga. One of the few Donkey Kong games made without a second-party. This theory goes even farther with his new Ultimate Final Smash, where he dishes out several hard-hitting punches. This would be a perfect time to reference Retro's DKC series, but they passed it up again for a Jungle Beat reference.
Don't really know how to update this funky monkey, though. I like the idea of Donkey relying on his brutish strength so a Barrel Cannon recovery is not something I'd imagine they'd do. Just give him updated looks for his moves and I'll be satisfied.

Maybe I'll type more later...
 

Fell God

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#29
Without saying Metroid: Other M being a bad game is your reason, why?
I actually kinda liked Other M, and I even like her Other M design, it's just that Samus Returns is more recent and also I like her design in that more.
 
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#30
I always thought that :ultdk: could be fine-tuned to be a little more like his canon self. Spinning Kong and Headbutt are more or less completely made up. His recovery move could easily be swinging on a vine or launching out of a barrel cannon, for instance. Similarly, Skull Bash on :ultpikachu:always came off as extremely random to me and not very reminiscent of how I imagine Pikachu would fight. It's not even a move that Pikachu can learn outside of a TM in Generation 1, and to me, that's like having Body Slam in Mewtwo's moveset because you could tutor it to him in Fire Red/Leaf Green.

I think most of the 64/Melee vets actually have playstyles that suit their characters well and that most of the movesets in question haven't aged that poorly when you consider they're supposed to be representative of each character's history in general, and not just their most recent appearances. My main gripes come down to examples where I feel like the moveset choices weren't very in-character to begin with. Most of what did work back in '99 and '01 still works today, though.
 
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SmashShadow

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#31
I would have personally made Pikachu have a different side special just because skull bash is outdated. Either electro ball or iron tail would have been cool moves to draw on from the anime. I also really want the coconut gun for DK and wish they could have made his handslap in the air use his bongos and send out smash shock waves just to have that little part remain. And I wish Zelda had her iconic light bow attack as a forward smash.
 

Crystanium

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#32
I actually kinda liked Other M, and I even like her Other M design, it's just that Samus Returns is more recent and also I like her design in that more.
I enjoyed it as well. But yes, it would have been nice to see Samus' new varia and gravity suit. She looks a tad more mechanical and tough.
 
Joined
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#33
Without saying Metroid: Other M being a bad game is your reason, why?
I personally would say it's because it's not Samus's most recent main series appearance like it was for literally every single other Smash Bros before this. Other M was her most recent main appearance before Smash 4, Samus Returns is the most recent main series game, so it stands to reason she should have the Samus Returns suit.

Personally, I love the Other M suit, at least the way Smash Bros does it, just don't like the inconsistency.
 

Mccdbz5

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#34
As someone who's always been a Donkey Kong main ever since Smash 64 since he's always been my favorite Nintendo character, I have to say that Donkey Kong's always felt hit or miss for me in terms of how he's represented. There's some things he does the same from the Country games, like his running and jumping animations, his Down-B, his winning animation where he puts his hands together and celebrates, etc. And then there's some things about him that just don't make sense. It took him until Smash 4 to get his rolling attack...which is something he did in both the original Donkey Kong Country and Donkey Kong 64. And then his specials, other than Down-B, feel unimaginative. Side-B has to be one of the laziest designs for a special move in Smash history. Spinning Kong (while I actually like the move) could be something like the arrow barrel, where it spins and you launch out at the right time. Even Giant Punch feels kind of dumb to me. Again, I like using the move and it's always had great utility, but all he does is wind up his arm and this somehow makes his punch stronger haha. I would love to see something like the coconut gun or throwing of a barrel replace Side-B or even Neutral-B to be honest. Having some kind of projectile like that would also make him much more viable than he's ever been as well in my opinion.
 

TriforceBun

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
119
#35
The original post is very good. The only thing I really disagree on--and this will echo other users--is Donkey Kong's portrayal. It's almost entirely made up!

First and foremost, he definitely needs a barrel throw move. If you could narrow down DK to a single attack, it would be this one! And projectiles on heavies are always interesting, particularly if this barrel throw attack is a powerful kill move with lots of startup lag.

I also like the idea of the barrel cannon Up-B. Having these moves replace Spinning Kong and Headbutt only make sense to me, and would make DK's moveset a lot more interesting and relevant to the character's history.

The Spinning Punch is a bit arbitrary too, but I think it'd be fine in the company of a couple other B-moves that make sense (much like how no one seems to mind that Diddy has a made-up side-B since his other three specials are very characteristic of him).
 
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Uffe

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#36
:ultness:
  1. B - PK Flash: He already has this.
  2. Up B - Teleport β: Make it work sort of like Sheik's, where if near Ness when he's recovering will blast away any nearby opponents.
  3. Side B - Paralysis: Could work similarly to Zero Suit Samus' Paralyzer in terms of stunning. It could also charge like R.O.B.'s Robo Beam over time if you don't use it often, giving Ness Paralysis α when weak, and Paralysis Ω when charged.
  4. Down B - Life-Up: Similar to Wii Fit Trainer's Deep Breathing, though, Ness would actually recover more health than WFT does.
  5. Final Smash - PK Rockin': This is probably Ness' best attack in EarthBound, so it would only make sense.
I'm already content with how Ness is in Smash, but if he was going to be his true self, this is probably how he would be.

:ultyounglink: Assuming we're basing him off of his Majora's Mask counterpart.
  1. B - Hero's Bow: Just his regular bow and arrows.
  2. Up B - Deku Flower Flight: This could work similarly to Peach's Parasol.
  3. Side B - Double Cutters: Young Link would throw out two Zora Fin's that work in the same manner as the Boomerang.
  4. Down B - Goron Pound: This could work similar to Kirby's Stone ability.
  5. Final Smash: Young Link transforms into Fierce Deity and destroys the Moon like in Hyrule Warriors. I'm sure there could be something more interesting here.
 

Quillion

Smash Master
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Messages
3,216
#37
I've been away for a while, so I will dedicate this post to general "increased canonicity" ideas.

Just gonna go over some vets that I have somethings to say about:
  • :ultmario: Mario
    • Consensus: Mildly outdated, but understandably. He's the baseline fighter for the Smash games and has been so since the original, but I can't shake the feeling that some of his moves don't feel as strongly implemented as others. While the Cape is an iconic power-up from SMW, its reflective capabilities and the way Mario handles it doesn't feel right to me. The moveset also tends to gloss over Mario's other abilities, such as his hammers that he often uses as melee attacks, or the fact that Super Jump Punch hardly feels like a proper implementation of Mario's offensive jumping capabilities.
    • Reasons/Fixes: I think Mario's specials should all borrow moves that Mario performs from his iconic platforming appearances, and all other moves should try and directly derive moves from his vast collection of games. While he is the "staple" of Smash, I would personally prefer if he had a moveset taking a lot from his games instead of anything else. If you have to make up a move for Mario, chances are you're not looking at his massive history. Some changes I propose:
      • F.L.U.D.D. would be moved to Mario's Up Special instead of his Down Special with a quick Hover Nozzle recovery. It would feel so right.
      • The Cape would be replaced with the Star-Spin from Mario Galaxy 1 & 2 and would be moved to his Down Special. It would essentially act like the Cape already does, but with something that more accurately performs its functions of reflecting projectiles & giving Mario a small boost in the air.
      • Cappy would finally be a part of Mario's moveset in the form of a Side Special. It would function as a projectile and even a handy platforming tool to gain a boost.
      • Mario's Forward Smash would be a Hammer wallop instead of the weird fire-explosion he does.
      • Mario's Down Air would be the Ground Pound. It's a risky move that would pack a punch, spiking fighters off stage, but would sent Mario plummeting downwards, ala Greninja's Down Air.
      • Mario's footstools now deal a bit of damage. C'mon, now.
I think Mario Tornado/Star Spin would be fantastic as a Side-B actually. A non-star-powered Spin move was in the later New Super Mario Bros. games, so it can technically count as a staple move for Mario now. Plus it better mirrors Ryu's Tatsumaki since Mario is the Shoto of Smash.

But honestly, I would prefer to get rid of other one-time gimmicks such as FLUDD and Cappy. Down-B should be the Ground Pound and Down-Air should be the Goomba Stomp.

Otherwise, I like your Hammer idea. Personally, I'd keep the Forward Smash the way it is since it ties into his "fiery" image that Smash has, but his Forward Air would be a good place to place a hammer move. Failing that, I would love it if his Forward Air got fire properties.

  • :ultdk: - Donkey Kong
    • Consensus: Just a bit weak, but ultimately decent. I'm sure there are more unique attacks to pull from his games than there are now, but as it is he's fine.
    • Reasons/Fixes: Some moves and elements from DKC and DK64 could surely be implemented in his moveset.
      • Side Special could definitely be a Barrel Toss instead of Headbutt - that's something he has been known for doing ever since his first appearance.
      • Up Special could be a Barrel Blast instead of Spinning Kong. it'd be a much better fitting recovery. It's not like he needs a bad recovery; his weakness is that he's total combo food.
      • Where is his glorious voice? I know Sakurai likes animal noises for these heavy characters, but I'd much prefer the cartoony Donkey Kong we know and love.
I'll address this in the next post, which will respond to all Donkey Kong complaints.

  • :ultsamus: - Samus
    • Consensus: By far the weakest representation of all Smash originals, I'd say. The moves she does have do reference her games, but there's a lot of her moveset that just doesn't feel right at all
    • Reasons/Fixes: Now I haven't played too many Metroid games, but from what I have observed there are a lot of cool things from her games you could implement in Smash:
      • Crawling. Just let her duck and go into a morph ball while moving, please. It shouldn't just be locked to her Down Special. It'd be fun to mess with your opponents by doing this ala Jigglypuff/Kirby.
      • I'm not sure why Samus is so floaty, considering how tight her controls are in her games. Make her a fast faller!
      • How about implementing the Speed Booster into her running somehow? Make it a unique mechanic where if she runs far enough (around the length of Final Destination), she gains a huge burst of speed, which could be stored temporarily via crouching and then unleashed with a super-powerful Shinespark which would function just as it does in the games? Samus would launch herself at super-fast speeds, and if the attack hits, it could be as strong as a Warlock Punch, but if it doesn't, Samus would go flying off stage to a likely SD?
      • Project M has this, but what about a beam swapping mechanic? The Ice Beam and Plasma Beam need some love.
      • Change up her design! Why not her suit from Samus Returns instead of Other M? Why not make her alts her many different suits?
Agreed that Samus is pretty weak in terms of potential that could be realized, but only because Mega Man and Mii Gunner have showed us far more potential for what a hand-cannon moveset can do. What I really want more than anything is for her to get projectile normals like those two characters.

Morph Ball crawling is something I really want, although there may be a hidden reason aside from the "characters should stay consistent" thing that Samus doesn't have it. My theory is that could make Samus too hard to hit at close range when the entire point of her playstyle (at least Brawl-onward) is that she's bad at close range.

Speed Booster is not necessary since it would be a very situational mechanic. But I would like it if her Dash Attack has afterimages and a fire effect just to reference the Shinespark.

I think beam-swapping would be a cool idea as a Shield-B like we've been discussing on that other thread. But I would like it to accompany a projectile normal-based moveset so that all moves would have different properties. And it should just be limited to the Ice Beam.

As Fell God Fell God stated earlier, the most likely reason behind not using the Samus Returns design is due to it starting development far too late for Ultimate.

  • :ultkirby: - Kirby
    • Consensus: Alright, but maybe a little weak. He does loan a lot from his popular Copy Abilities, but I feel like the selection we have feels a bit lacking.
    • Reasons/Fixes: His tilts and aerials definitely can pull some moves from his other Copy Abilities, as the Kirby games somewhat have a similar control style to Smash already, with its many moves yet with minimal button presses needed in order to execute them. The moves he has for these inputs feel really generic. Here's what I got:
      • Neutral Aerial - the Sword Spin. I don't know where that spin he uses already comes from.
      • Down Aerial - Pinpoint Kick from Suplex. Quick move that would send Kirby straight down with a fearsome yet rather weak kick. Similar to Greninja's down aerial, but even more quick.
      • Forward Aerial - Beam Blast. Kirby would send many energy bolts downward and diagonally, but these itself would be very weak.
      • Side Tilt - Parasol Spin. It could even function like the games where if you hold it down it'll keep spinning.
      • Down Tilt - Slide. This is so obvious and I don't know why he only has the stationary kick. Characters like Cloud and the Belmonts get a move that is exactly how Kirby's should be. It would be the exact same input as in his games!
      • Dash Grab - Make it like...well, the Suplex's Dash Grab! Have Kirby lunge forward in a similar fashion as he does with the Suplex ability already. Also, give his throws the SFX of Suplex from Super Star. Would be the most satisfying thing ever.
      • I could go on and on. In the end, it really should be easy to make each and every one of Kirby's moves all borrowing something from his games - there are so many moves to choose from!
These are all really cool ideas, so I'm all for them. His aerials and tilts are admittedly somewhat uninspired given the material, but your ideas are really good.

If you have more ideas, go ahead and post them!

:ultmario:- Could use a more generalized update. Most people suggest a Odyssey-based cap throw to replace the cape and/or F.L.U.D.D, which I think is ridiculous. The reason people want those moves replaced is the fact that they feel like "dated" references, but if the Cappy mechanic doesn't become a permanent series fixture, that's exactly what the aforesaid cap throw will become!
If they still want a reflecting maneuver, perhaps they could call back to Mario Kart and have a giant Green Shell spin around Mario, reflecting or just blocking projectiles. For his down special, you could go for a more relative reference since Mario is usually associated with hammers, so why not have him throw a few hammers around in an arc ala Super Mario Bros 3?
Everything else is a pretty accurate representation. They can't give Mario too many crazy abilities, lest they lose the all-arounder dynamic they've been going for past 20 years.
Totally agreed that Mario needs to be generalized. This is the main reason why I don't want FLUDD anymore and I don't want Cappy to be a part of his moveset; they will just be dated.

Again, the only things that should definitely change are Ground Pound for Down-B, Goomba Stomp for Down-Air, and move Mario Tornado/Spin to Side-B.

:ultdk:- Don't know how I feel. My theory is that to further differentiate themselves from Rare's version of Donkey Kong, They used the design philosophy of the character from the pre-Rare era, and what was the character like before DKC? A big, heavy brute, which Smash depicted very well 64/Melee. However, it's almost like they think of Country DK as a third-party because they deliberately ignored the Country trilogy for Final Smash material and for what? Donkey Konga. One of the few Donkey Kong games made without a second-party. This theory goes even farther with his new Ultimate Final Smash, where he dishes out several hard-hitting punches. This would be a perfect time to reference Retro's DKC series, but they passed it up again for a Jungle Beat reference.
Don't really know how to update this funky monkey, though. I like the idea of Donkey relying on his brutish strength so a Barrel Cannon recovery is not something I'd imagine they'd do. Just give him updated looks for his moves and I'll be satisfied.

Maybe I'll type more later...
Again, I'll answer this in the double post.

:ultness:
  1. B - PK Flash: He already has this.
  2. Up B - Teleport β: Make it work sort of like Sheik's, where if near Ness when he's recovering will blast away any nearby opponents.
  3. Side B - Paralysis: Could work similarly to Zero Suit Samus' Paralyzer in terms of stunning. It could also charge like R.O.B.'s Robo Beam over time if you don't use it often, giving Ness Paralysis α when weak, and Paralysis Ω when charged.
  4. Down B - Life-Up: Similar to Wii Fit Trainer's Deep Breathing, though, Ness would actually recover more health than WFT does.
  5. Final Smash - PK Rockin': This is probably Ness' best attack in EarthBound, so it would only make sense.
I'm already content with how Ness is in Smash, but if he was going to be his true self, this is probably how he would be.
Exactly my thoughts. However, I think Shield Beta would work better as a counter-type move for down-B if Ness were to represent himself as opposed to the three PSI users of EarthBound.

PK Rockin' not being a Final Smash is almost inexcusable, though. I say "almost" since it maybe it's necessary to represent Poo's exclusive move as his "all of EarthBound" representation role.

:ultyounglink: Assuming we're basing him off of his Majora's Mask counterpart.
  1. B - Hero's Bow: Just his regular bow and arrows.
  2. Up B - Deku Flower Flight: This could work similarly to Peach's Parasol.
  3. Side B - Double Cutters: Young Link would throw out two Zora Fin's that work in the same manner as the Boomerang.
  4. Down B - Goron Pound: This could work similar to Kirby's Stone ability.
  5. Final Smash: Young Link transforms into Fierce Deity and destroys the Moon like in Hyrule Warriors. I'm sure there could be something more interesting here.
Yeah, it's too bad that Young Link and Toon Link have to play the same as they always had and not get unique tools representing their different games. Massive missed opportunity there.

(That said, I still want a fourth Link who represents OoT Link and TP Link at once and has the Smash 4 moveset. No one can convince me this is a bad idea.)
 

Quillion

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,216
#38
In the interest of keeping my posts more compartmentalized, I'm going to double post. If the mods object to this, they can just merge this and the previous posts. I'm sorry for any inconvenience.

Moving on...
I always thought that :ultdk: could be fine-tuned to be a little more like his canon self. Spinning Kong and Headbutt are more or less completely made up. His recovery move could easily be swinging on a vine or launching out of a barrel cannon, for instance.
I also really want the coconut gun for DK and wish they could have made his handslap in the air use his bongos and send out smash shock waves just to have that little part remain.
As someone who's always been a Donkey Kong main ever since Smash 64 since he's always been my favorite Nintendo character, I have to say that Donkey Kong's always felt hit or miss for me in terms of how he's represented. There's some things he does the same from the Country games, like his running and jumping animations, his Down-B, his winning animation where he puts his hands together and celebrates, etc. And then there's some things about him that just don't make sense. It took him until Smash 4 to get his rolling attack...which is something he did in both the original Donkey Kong Country and Donkey Kong 64. And then his specials, other than Down-B, feel unimaginative. Side-B has to be one of the laziest designs for a special move in Smash history. Spinning Kong (while I actually like the move) could be something like the arrow barrel, where it spins and you launch out at the right time. Even Giant Punch feels kind of dumb to me. Again, I like using the move and it's always had great utility, but all he does is wind up his arm and this somehow makes his punch stronger haha. I would love to see something like the coconut gun or throwing of a barrel replace Side-B or even Neutral-B to be honest. Having some kind of projectile like that would also make him much more viable than he's ever been as well in my opinion.
The original post is very good. The only thing I really disagree on--and this will echo other users--is Donkey Kong's portrayal. It's almost entirely made up!

First and foremost, he definitely needs a barrel throw move. If you could narrow down DK to a single attack, it would be this one! And projectiles on heavies are always interesting, particularly if this barrel throw attack is a powerful kill move with lots of startup lag.

I also like the idea of the barrel cannon Up-B. Having these moves replace Spinning Kong and Headbutt only make sense to me, and would make DK's moveset a lot more interesting and relevant to the character's history.

The Spinning Punch is a bit arbitrary too, but I think it'd be fine in the company of a couple other B-moves that make sense (much like how no one seems to mind that Diddy has a made-up side-B since his other three specials are very characteristic of him).
I've noticed that there is a lot of complaints regarding Donkey Kong's portrayal. While I understand that there are a few moves that could work better than his current set, I don't find them to be too much of a big deal. Here's a CrappyCaptureDevice video from the Brawl days:


As you can see, nearly everything from DKC1 was brought into DK's moveset. As of Brawl, his hand slap, crouch, and chest pound were all direct recreations of the relevant animations in DKC1. As something that Capture missed, even his jump is a recreation of his jump in DKC1. Smash 4 eventually added the Roll Attack so that DK could finally match Diddy in getting their respective DKC signature attacks.

Yeah, I can understand that people want a Barrel Throw and Coconut Gun. Believe me, I have voice my personal desire for such. But honestly, I just think it's unnecessary. Moreover, it would contradict DK's playstyle as a close-range heavy brawler if he had a projectile.

So considering that so many animations are direct rips from DKC1, and Smash 4 finally brought the roll in, I personally think DK is completely set.
 
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
1,632
#40
I wouldn't say the movesets are outdated. The characters are being represented their classic most iconic forms (except ganondorf). Would I change some things in some characters? Absolutely. I'd change things for some brawl and smash4 characters too. But at the same time, I wouldn't want to get rid of their original movesets - I'd like to see alternate movesets implemented.

Mario - for the love of God get rid of fludd, and go back to Mario tornado. If anything, give him an alternate moveset using fludd for the entire moveset.

Donkey Kong - I'd give him an alt moveset where he can pull barells out of the ground for side b, and where he's shot out of a barrel for up b.

Ganondorf - he needs an alternate moveset representing his ocarina of time appearance. That's where he was invented for gods sake! Why is he still a clone of falcon?

Young link - the coolest thing would be to give him an alt moveset where he can cycle between Masks (deku, Zora and goron)

Zelda/sheik - I'd offer an alternate option where you can sacrifice their new down b to be able to swap between the two again.

Now beyond melee:

Metaknight - for him I wouldn't need an alt moveset, but he really needs 2 moves implemented:

1) dair should have him quickly diving downward with his sword pointing down (which is an attack he has as a boss in many kirby games. And a dair angled forward should have him diving at an angle. Project m gave him this attack at one point and it was awesome.

2) his f tilt should have an option where if you delay pressing A for a moment during his third swing, he releases a barrage of long distance forward sword thrusts like in classic kirby games. Essentially he'd be throwing his sword forward mutiple times really fast. I'm hoping you guys know what im referring to here. Let me know if not.

Wario - I really want his side b to be replaced with his classic body check like in project m. The bike is so stupid. I'd prefer his whole moveset to work like in project m also, like his d-air could be a butt attack downward, and he'd also have his football throw for f-throw. I'd be fine with his moveset being replaced, but I'd also be more than happy if this was an alt moveset option.

Toon link - he doesn't need a total overhaul, but I'd give him a few references from his games. Like the skull hammer for his f-smash maybe, the deku leaf for f tilt - and also as a recovery option when holding jump. The grappling hook could also replace his hookshot.

Olimar - I'd make block+b pull out pikmin from the ground, and I'd also make it call pikmin in when they've been sent on tasks (so any time a pikmin is off doing something, block+b brings them back, but when he has no pikmin on screen, or they're all close/attached to him, he pulls them out of the ground - unless he's maxed out), cause man this guy lacks any attacks right now. This would give him 2 new attacks which I haven't really thought about, but maybe he can have the pikmin whip as neutral b (and it can be angled forward or up), and then his up b could involve the hovering pikmin. Then down b could have him plant explosive pikmin or something. Not sure about this one. Any other ideas?

Pit - please give him his brawl moveset back as an alt. His new moveset is so weird. His project m moveset would be great too, but I don't se that happening.

Lucas - I think a cool change to his down b would be to make it work similar to game and watches bucket instead of a healing move. Have him be able to bucket up to 3 projectiles, and then shoot out a big beam. Alternatively, it would also be cool to have it work like robyns down b where he can absorb health from enemies when touching them.

Megaman - I'd make his megabuster his neutral b, and I'd make it chargeable while stil being able to walk around. The buzzsaw is stupid lol. Then I'd change his fsmash to literally any other attack.

Pacman - I'd really like to see Pacman take inspiration from more of his games. Forcing a moveset from one game, and using ghosts as attacks is really bad. He could have a lot of other fun attacks from his other games.

Sorry if I got off topic with brawl and smash4, but these are the main character moveset changes I'd like to see. Beyond these specific updates, I just want every character to have more fun intuitive movesets using what they currently have. I'm hoping ultimate delivers that!
 
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