Do the 64 and Melee veterans have outdated and/or inaccurate portrayals?

Arthur97

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#81
*Just a disclaimer, I'm ignoring mechanics changes between the previous titles here, and looking at the Smash series as a whole.*

To shake things up, and keep it fresh, I suppose. I love all the smash games, but it's mostly been layer after layer caked on top year after year. How can they top Ultimate? Everyone is here. Just about everything is here. And we're getting DLC. Issues can be fixed via patches. The only thing that needs to be directly improved upon is the online system. And I honestly don't know if I could handle a game with 100+ characters.

Knowing Nintendo, if there's a new Smash in the next 4-8 years, they'll go the safe, Disneyfied route and add another layer on the cake. Which if they do so, I'd probably still play it. But if they strip it down and start fresh, I think it could go one of a couple ways. It could go the route of MVC Infinite (badly), or it could be a big success. It's more risky, and they might make some waves, but I think people would come around eventually if it turns out to be a really solid game.

I'm sold on the idea that not much can really replace Ultimate, besides Ultimate with a better online system. Which is why I suggest something new, then people don't necessarily need to completely dump Ultimate for the new game. We already have had multiple Smash titles featuring at large international events for years now. Why not Ultimate and something new and different?

I mean, every new iteration of Apple product either removes or changes something dramatically and drives people up the wall at the announcement, but the same people keep buying into it regardless. Maybe not the best comparison, idk. I've been awake too long.
Yeah, that's you. Most people would probably be upset at a roster a third the size.
 

Idon

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#82
I'd like to see them shake it up with a bunch of character revamps and a modified combat system.

It'll never happen because it's too risky, but it's nice to dream.
 

Sean²

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#83
Yeah, that's you. Most people would probably be upset at a roster a third the size.
I feel like you’re too focused on the roster count I originally threw out. Forget the number. That was just a ballpark idea. I guess I meant a core roster with some of the fluff cut out, and a high focus on revitalizing a core cast and making them all rock solid. Except for the weird case of ICs and 3DS hardware limitations with 8 player smash, zero non-clone characters have been cut from the roster since Melee. Combine a revitalized cast, an adventure mode to dethrone Subspace, and the multiplayer we all know, and I think it could be the makings to keep the series fresh.

Consider the rest of the points. How can they possibly improve upon Ultimate? It feels like they’ve backed themselves into a wall with this amount of content. Smash fans are notorious for being dissatisfied no matter how strong the foundation is or how much content you throw in their face. It would be nice to see characters that have staled a bit over the past two or three games get completely revamped. I usually like to use Mario as an example. Fireballs and Super Jump Punch are staples. Cape and FLUDD could probably use a change at this point. Combine that with changing around his A moves a bit (or a lot) and he's basically a new character. Use that same philosophy times however many characters make up a core Nintendo cast and it could be a groundbreaking situation.

However this is all just my speculation on how I figured the Smash series could go after it seemed like adding more layers would cause it to tip over. I’ve been wrong twice now, I don’t plan on being right this time.
 

Quillion

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#84
Honestly, I just don't think the majority of Smash players give much of a damn about the "super accuracy" of the characters' portrayals to warrant the "cast overhaul". Only a mildly vocal portion of the fanbase wants Ganondorf's magic orb or DK's Barrel Throw, and they are largely drowned out by the people who want entirely new characters like Isaac or (ugh) Geno.

Even overhauls for select few cast members are questionable. I honestly didn't like how Bowser was "humanized" when I much preferred his primal self. And if Ganondorf got more sword moves, he would just become another Ike. If he got magic moves he would become another Robin or Mewtwo.

It may bother me on some level, but character overhauls just aren't worth it.
 
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#85
Honestly, I just don't think the majority of Smash players give much of a damn about the "super accuracy" of the characters' portrayals to warrant the "cast overhaul". Only a mildly vocal portion of the fanbase wants Ganondorf's magic orb or DK's Barrel Throw, and they are largely drowned out by the people who want entirely new characters like Isaac or (ugh) Geno.

Even overhauls for select few cast members are questionable. I honestly didn't like how Bowser was "humanized" when I much preferred his primal self. And if Ganondorf got more sword moves, he would just become another Ike. If he got magic moves he would become another Robin or Mewtwo.

It may bother me on some level, but character overhauls just aren't worth it.
After seeing through how Rivals of Aether does their characters, I see now that this idea that giving someone like Ganondorf more magic based abilities or sword based abiltieis turns them into another character is a ludicrous statement honestly. It's not just about aesthetic, but also how they play. Ganondorf with his Ike-like Smash attacks plays no closer to Ike than he did before. Why would him having more magic make him play more like Mewtwo or Robin? Robin is a zoner and Mewtwo is a glass cannon rushdown. Both have magic, yet to say Mewtwo and Robin play the same is ludicrous too. Why would Ganondorf end up being like Robin or Mewtwo just based on having more magic when Robin and Mewtwo already don't play like each other?

Going back to Rivals of Aether, they have four general elements they work with, being Fire, Water, Earth, and Air, and yet the three fighters in each category, despite having similar motifs, end up playing differently. Zetterburn and Clairen both have fire based moves, and yet Clairen is more of a neutral based character while Zetterburn is rushdown. Sylvanos and Maypul both involve plants and foliage for fighting, yet Sylvanos seems to be a stage control monster heavyweight while Maypul is a combo based trickster archetype.

As for me, at this point seeing Rivals, I'd want an overhaul for some of the older characters not only because of canon reasons, but because it breeds creativity in design more than anything. DK having a Barrel Throw is potentially more interesting than his Headbutt which is exclusive to Smash Bros. Ganon having more magic and sword play is potentially more interesting than the mostly CQC brawler we have. Heck, you don't even need to change their general archetypes for this to work.
 
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#86
Just want to say that anybody who thinks that F.L.U.D.D. should be replaced in favor of Mario Tornado probably doesn’t actually play Mario because losing FLUDD would almost certainly hurt the character. I wouldn’t mind Cape being replaced with the Spin, though, assuming that it would serve the same purpose.

As for Jigglypuff, I think her moveset is definitely in need of a fresh coat of paint. She should have more magic attacks and aesthetic flair now that she’s been made a Fairy-type. It’s also a shame that she doesn’t use her iconic marker at all. It’d be really entertaining to throw it at people and poke with it like a ghetto sword character.
 

Quillion

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#87
After seeing through how Rivals of Aether does their characters, I see now that this idea that giving someone like Ganondorf more magic based abilities or sword based abiltieis turns them into another character is a ludicrous statement honestly. It's not just about aesthetic, but also how they play. Ganondorf with his Ike-like Smash attacks plays no closer to Ike than he did before. Why would him having more magic make him play more like Mewtwo or Robin? Robin is a zoner and Mewtwo is a glass cannon rushdown. Both have magic, yet to say Mewtwo and Robin play the same is ludicrous too. Why would Ganondorf end up being like Robin or Mewtwo just based on having more magic when Robin and Mewtwo already don't play like each other?
Well, I gotta admit that Ganondorf would have been better viability-wise if he had more sword moves (more range to compensate for that frame data).

But honestly, Ganondorf and Bowser just stand out in my mind as two characters that are a lot less fun when they're trying to make them "more canon". Without Bowser's primal fury and Ganondorf's don't-give-a-crap Smashes, the fun of playing as those characters has been damaged. I can still enjoy playing as them, but something is just missing.

As for me, at this point seeing Rivals, I'd want an overhaul for some of the older characters not only because of canon reasons, but because it breeds creativity in design more than anything. DK having a Barrel Throw is potentially more interesting than his Headbutt which is exclusive to Smash Bros. Ganon having more magic and sword play is potentially more interesting than the mostly CQC brawler we have. Heck, you don't even need to change their general archetypes for this to work.
You know something? People seem to call ripping moves from canon and sticking it in Smash "creative". But is it really? Wouldn't it be more creative to come up with something original that fits that character's spirit? Originality while working within limitations seems like a better expression of creativity than just carbon copying a move from a character's game.

Just want to say that anybody who thinks that F.L.U.D.D. should be replaced in favor of Mario Tornado probably doesn’t actually play Mario because losing FLUDD would almost certainly hurt the character. I wouldn’t mind Cape being replaced with the Spin, though, assuming that it would serve the same purpose.
You know, if we were going "max canon", the ground pound would work better than either FLUDD or the tornado.
 

Quillion

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#89
No it wouldn’t. Ground pound and FLUDD are both things that Mario can do in his games. They’re equally canon.
How is a one-shot ability "equally canon" as something that Mario has consistently done throughout all of the 3D games and even the recent 2D ones?
 
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#90
How is a one-shot ability "equally canon" as something that Mario has consistently done throughout all of the 3D games and even the recent 2D ones?
To start, there’s no such thing as an ability being some arbitrary amount of canon, either it is canon, or it isn’t. The Ground Pound is canon, and FLUDD is as well. I’m sure you can figure out where I’m going with this for yourself.
 

Quillion

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#93
To start, there’s no such thing as an ability being some arbitrary amount of canon, either it is canon, or it isn’t. The Ground Pound is canon, and FLUDD is as well. I’m sure you can figure out where I’m going with this for yourself.
Well played. What I'm trying to say is that Ground Pound is one of Mario's most iconic moves alongside Goomba Stomp. Moreso than either FLUDD or Tornado. Even though it could come off as being too much like Bowser and Yoshi's Ground Pounds, there are ways to make it distinct, like say burying opponents for a follow-up.

Maybe a better compromise would be to give Mario the Goomba Stomp and Doc the Ground Pound for their d-airs.

Tbh most fighters are in need of a serious revamp. I'd be ok if half of the fighters are completely different in Smash 6.
Why most fighters. By most people's estimation, only Ganondorf and DK among non-echoes need revamps. You can't just have the characters automatically pull from every recent game they have; that would make the series unfocused.
 
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#94
You know something? People seem to call ripping moves from canon and sticking it in Smash "creative". But is it really? Wouldn't it be more creative to come up with something original that fits that character's spirit? Originality while working within limitations seems like a better expression of creativity than just carbon copying a move from a character's game.
Usually the most creative movesets are the most canon ones in the Smash Bros roster. This is because of the creativity bred from limitation. The more limiting your potential design space, the more creative you are kinda forced to be. It's kinda a general rule of art honestly.

Meanwhile, to just make a completely original moveset devoid of canonical relevance means your design space is more broad, and so you choose the safer, more boring options for moves.

As for the "carbon copying" moves from other games, note that for a lot of the Smash Bros roster, their home games are not generally compatible with the platform fighter genre, thus most of the creativity comes in translating these abilities into a new medium without being too out there.
 
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#95
Why most fighters. By most people's estimation, only Ganondorf and DK among non-echoes need revamps. You can't just have the characters automatically pull from every recent game they have; that would make the series unfocused.
I never said from every recent game, I only meant that there are a lot fighters (how many fighters do you count as clones?) that could use some serious changes.
 

Quillion

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#96
Usually the most creative movesets are the most canon ones in the Smash Bros roster. This is because of the creativity bred from limitation. The more limiting your potential design space, the more creative you are kinda forced to be. It's kinda a general rule of art honestly.

Meanwhile, to just make a completely original moveset devoid of canonical relevance means your design space is more broad, and so you choose the safer, more boring options for moves.

As for the "carbon copying" moves from other games, note that for a lot of the Smash Bros roster, their home games are not generally compatible with the platform fighter genre, thus most of the creativity comes in translating these abilities into a new medium without being too out there.
But would Captain Falcon and pre-Ultimate Ganondorf be as fun as they are if they strictly stuck to gunfighting and swordplay as they do in canon?

Again, canon =/= enjoyability.

I never said from every recent game, I only meant that there are a lot fighters (how many fighters do you count as clones?) that could use some serious changes.
From what I looked, though, only six characters could use serious changes from a faithfulness standpoint (Ganondorf, Zelda, Sheik, Samus, Fox, Falco). That's hardly a large percentage of the cast.
 
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#97
But would Captain Falcon and pre-Ultimate Ganondorf be as fun as they are if they strictly stuck to gunfighting and swordplay as they do in canon?

Again, canon =/= enjoyability.



From what I looked, though, only six characters could use serious changes from a faithfulness standpoint (Ganondorf, Zelda, Sheik, Samus, Fox, Falco). That's hardly a large percentage of the cast.
Personally I feel like :ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultfalcon::ultdk::ultdoc::ultfalco::ultfox::ultganondorf::ultjigglypuff::ultlucas::ultlucina::ultmegaman::ultmetaknight::ultolimar::ultpacman::ultdarkpit::ultrobin::ultchrom::ultken::ultdarksamus::ultsheik::ultsonic::ulttoonlink::ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultzss: could all use a few changes.
 
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#99
Every single one of those characters are portrayed in ways that make sense save maybe Ganondorf. Even then, he still does a good job of representing when he had little to go off of in OoT.
That's subjective. I feel like a lot of these could use reworks.
A few examples:
:ultbowserjr: Should step out of the clown car and actually use his paintbrush and other weapons from his boss appearences
:ultdk: and :ultbowser:should have their moves changed to match their games more instead of being portrayed as big primal screeching monsters
:ultlucina: and :ultchrom: could probably be decloned
:ulttoonlink: and :ultyounglink: should use the items unique to their games or items that first appeared in their games instead of the traditional Zelda ones (because that's redundant). Young Link should also use the slingshot, but that's a personal preference.
 

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That's subjective. I feel like a lot of these could use reworks.
A few examples:
:ultbowserjr: Should step out of the clown car and actually use his paintbrush and other weapons from his boss appearences
:ultdk: and :ultbowser:should have their moves changed to match their games more instead of being portrayed as big primal screeching monsters
:ultlucina: and :ultchrom: could probably be decloned
:ulttoonlink: and :ultyounglink: should use the items unique to their games or items that first appeared in their games instead of the traditional Zelda ones (because that's redundant). Young Link should also use the slingshot, but that's a personal preference.
The Clown Car moveset is so much better than all of the generic paint brush move sets fans came up with though.
 

Quillion

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:ultbowserjr: Should step out of the clown car and actually use his paintbrush and other weapons from his boss appearences
Why do people still want this? Clown Car Jr. Is a much more creative moveset for him than "fast Bowser" and/or with a paintbrush.

:ultdk: and :ultbowser:should have their moves changed to match their games more instead of being portrayed as big primal screeching monsters
I see a lot of demand for them to have the Barrel Throw/Coconut Gun and fireball projectiles, but those are hardly necessary changes to characters who are already portrayed very well.

:ultlucina: and :ultchrom: could probably be decloned
They cone from a TBSRPG series. It's not like they have anything to work with.

:ulttoonlink: and :ultyounglink: should use the items unique to their games or items that first appeared in their games instead of the traditional Zelda ones (because that's redundant). Young Link should also use the slingshot, but that's a personal preference.
You actually have a point here, but they're using the most iconic Zelda items in their movesets. Using unique items would seem like a downgrade to many.
 

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They cone from a TBSRPG series. It's not like they have anything to work with.
I agree with most of what you've said, but definitely not this one. Chrom, for example, has a fairly well-defined canonical fighting style shown in both Awakening and Warriors. Granted, in his case, most of it is actually well-represented with his altered version of Roy's moveset, considering his style focuses on overwhelming the foe and diving right into the fight, but there are definitely a few canonical moves he doesn't use in Smash.

Probably the biggest example is the fact that Chrom and Lucina can use lances in addition to swords, so they could, in theory, work in a javelin toss, for example.

Though Chrom's fine as he is for now, all things considered.
 

Quillion

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I agree with most of what you've said, but definitely not this one. Chrom, for example, has a fairly well-defined canonical fighting style shown in both Awakening and Warriors. Granted, in his case, most of it is actually well-represented with his altered version of Roy's moveset, considering his style focuses on overwhelming the foe and diving right into the fight, but there are definitely a few canonical moves he doesn't use in Smash.

Probably the biggest example is the fact that Chrom and Lucina can use lances in addition to swords, so they could, in theory, work in a javelin toss, for example.

Though Chrom's fine as he is for now, all things considered.
I'm surprised you brought that up and not Chrom and Lucina's skills.

Lucina could possible use Lancefaire, Astra, and Galeforce. Chrom, I don't really think any of his potential skills work as specials other than Aether possibly.
 

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I'm surprised you brought that up and not Chrom and Lucina's skills.

Lucina could possible use Lancefaire, Astra, and Galeforce. Chrom, I don't really think any of his potential skills work as specials other than Aether possibly.
That's mainly because Chrom gets a lot of support based skills, and no access to classes like Mercenary for Sol or Myrmidon for Astra. He gets Luna at least. Though Aether's already in his Smash moveset as his Final Smash. :p Thinking it over, Counter could be changed to a more situational type of Counter, kinda like Incineroar's Revenge: in this case, Aegis. Maybe if he lands the counter, he'll grow more resistant to projectile damage for a limited time. That could be neat.
 

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That's mainly because Chrom gets a lot of support based skills, and no access to classes like Mercenary for Sol or Myrmidon for Astra. He gets Luna at least. Though Aether's already in his Smash moveset as his Final Smash. :p Thinking it over, Counter could be changed to a more situational type of Counter, kinda like Incineroar's Revenge: in this case, Aegis. Maybe if he lands the counter, he'll grow more resistant to projectile damage for a limited time. That could be neat.
Well, Chrom can use a bow for Bowfaire. That's all I've got.
 

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You say that Pikachu ought not to learn Skull Bash because he can only learn it in gen 1 but you do not mention Mewtwo's Teleport which Mewtwo can only learn in gen 1.

But I do not think that Skull Bash and Teleport make Pikachu and Mewtwo respectively less faithful. It just means that they represent Pikachu and Mewtwo in a more general sense instead of Pikachu and Mewtwo from the last gen. They also do this with Mario, he never has both FLUDD and Fire Flower powers at once. If Pikachu is less faithfull for having moves that he only gets in gen 1 than Mario is less faithful for having FLUDD since he only gets FLUDD in an old game as well.
 

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You say that Pikachu ought not to learn Skull Bash because he can only learn it in gen 1 but you do not mention Mewtwo's Teleport which Mewtwo can only learn in gen 1.

But I do not think that Skull Bash and Teleport make Pikachu and Mewtwo respectively less faithful. It just means that they represent Pikachu and Mewtwo in a more general sense instead of Pikachu and Mewtwo from the last gen. They also do this with Mario, he never has both FLUDD and Fire Flower powers at once. If Pikachu is less faithfull for having moves that he only gets in gen 1 than Mario is less faithful for having FLUDD since he only gets FLUDD in an old game as well.
I never said that having outdated moves make them less faithful, just (keyword) outdated. I generally prefer portrayals being done in a more general sense instead of representing the last game.

Heck, this is why I disdain FLUDD from a faithfulness standpoint since the Ground Pound has always been a more staple move for Mario. And what's the point of introducing the Goomba Stomp (on Doc) when THE Goomba stomper himself can't use it?
 

1FC0

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I never said that having outdated moves make them less faithful, just (keyword) outdated.
Then classics like G&W, R.O.B. DHD, IC, etc. are also outdated? They refer to old characters just like Skull Bash refers to gen 1 Pikachu.
I generally prefer portrayals being done in a more general sense instead of representing the last game.
Skull Bash never represented the last game.
 
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I keep seeing people claiming that the original veterans are in dire need of a moveset update. Looking at their movesets... yeah, I have no clue what makes them say that.

Their movesets are mostly practical and referential to the source material. Their performance isn't too shabby either, as going by Smash 4's tier list, the majority have decent placements on that list.

-Mario has always enjoyed a plethora of moves and power ups from across the history of his series. All his normals and specials are on point.

-Mostly the same with DK. At the time of his debut in Smash, he had about a grand total of three moves to work with: Barrel throw, Hand Slap and his rolling attack.
The first is represented in his Cargo throw, the second one has been there since the beginning and the third one was eventually added in. Giant Punch is more or less based on the ending from DKC2 and Spinning Kong is a reference to Dixie. Headbutt came from nowhere, but DK actually uses head attacks in Jungle Beat. I'll concede that his Coconut Gun may have a place in his moveset but he is fine as he is.

-Link is on point. They got away with changing him though because there are two other Links now that can carry that role.

-Samus's specials are fine and she has been shown capable of CQC as displayed by her normals, but if there was a change I would make is to have her Down Smash be like Mii Gunner and her Jabs be short ranged blasts. Otherwise, mostly good.

-Fox has almost nothing to take from his games so he is fine. And contrary to popular belief, Fox specials are actually based the on the fire and illusory powers of mythical foxes in japanese folklore. As mentioned by Miyamoto, Fox himself was inspired by the fox statues from the Fushimi Inari shrine.

-Yoshi is perfect.

-And so is Pikachu. Like Yoshi, its toolkit meshes really well. Just because there are new Pokemon moves it doesn't mean that they should fix what is not broken. Volt Tackle as the FS should stay because its the signature move of the Pikachu line.

-Kirby's moveset is faithful, but I would agree with some that his specials need to be tuned to become more effective.

That's subjective. I feel like a lot of these could use reworks.
A few examples:
:ultbowserjr: Should step out of the clown car and actually use his paintbrush and other weapons from his boss appearences
:ultdk: and :ultbowser:should have their moves changed to match their games more instead of being portrayed as big primal screeching monsters
:ultlucina: and :ultchrom: could probably be decloned
:ulttoonlink: and :ultyounglink: should use the items unique to their games or items that first appeared in their games instead of the traditional Zelda ones (because that's redundant). Young Link should also use the slingshot, but that's a personal preference.
I don't understand why Jr. should be downgraded by using a moveset based on an early appearance. And his current moveset uses a lot of weapons already, he is like a swiss knife. Giving him the Klown Kar from the New Super Mario Bros. series was a good idea to make him stand out.

And I don't understand the changes you are talking about for DK and Bowser. I played DK Tropical Freeze, and nothing there was notable enough to be used as a new move for DK. He still rolls, he still throws things, he still punches and he still hand slaps; just like in Smash and the old DKC games. They even updated his FS.
Same with Bowser, his moveset captures the brutality of his character. He more or less brings in a new gimmick on each Mario game but the essentials remain unchanged. He can stomp, breathe fire, swipe or punch.

With the other two Links, they are almost perfectly faithful to how they fight in their home series and perform well enough to sometimes even outshine Link. 3D Zelda games share an abundant amount of common moves and weapons. Their sword slashes, spin attack and items are consistent with how they've worked in those games. Those items you speak of tend to be a one time gimmick unique to the game they first appear in. For instance, is not necessary to sacrifice Toon Link's Spin Attack for a Deku Leaf recovery.


I don't understand some of the other examples you suggest. How would Captain Falcon, Fox, Wolf and Falco be updated? And a better question: why should they?
From what non existing canon material would Falcon pull from? Same goes for Fox, Wolf and Falco. And no, turning them into artillery based fighters like in the walking sections of Star Fox Assault would be too jarring at this point.
And Olimar? What exactly is wrong with him now?
And Lucas? Megaman? Pacman? ZSS? Robin? Frickin' Ken?
At least elaborate on what is wrong about them that warrants to be updated. As I said before, there is no need to fix what is not broken.
 
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I keep seeing people claiming that the original veterans are in dire need of a moveset update. Looking at their movesets... yeah, I have no clue what makes them say that.

Their movesets are mostly practical and referential to the source material. Their performance isn't too shabby either, as going by Smash 4's tier list, the majority have decent placements on that list.

-Mario has always enjoyed a plethora of moves and power ups from across the history of his series. All his normals and specials are on point.

-Mostly the same with DK. At the time of his debut in Smash, he had about a grand total of three moves to work with: Barrel throw, Hand Slap and his rolling attack.
The first is represented in his Cargo throw, the second one has been there since the beginning and the third one was eventually added in. Giant Punch is more or less based on the ending from DKC2 and Spinning Kong is a reference to Dixie. Headbutt came from nowhere, but DK actually uses head attacks in Jungle Beat. I'll concede that his Coconut Gun may have a place in his moveset but he is fine as he is.

-Link is on point. They got away with changing him though because there are two other Links now that can carry that role.

-Samus's specials are fine and she has been shown capable of CQC as displayed by her normals, but if there was a change I would make is to have her Down Smash be like Mii Gunner and her Jabs be short ranged blasts. Otherwise, mostly good.

-Fox has almost nothing to take from his games so he is fine. And contrary to popular belief, Fox specials are actually based the on the fire and illusory powers of mythical foxes in japanese folklore. As mentioned by Miyamoto, Fox himself was inspired by the fox statues from the Fushimi Inari shrine.

-Yoshi is perfect.

-And so is Pikachu. Like Yoshi, its toolkit meshes really well. Just because there are new Pokemon moves it doesn't mean that they should fix what is not broken. Volt Tackle as the FS should stay because its the signature move of the Pikachu line.

-Kirby's moveset is faithful, but I would agree with some that his specials need to be tuned to become more effective.



I don't understand why Jr. should be downgraded by using a moveset based on an early appearance. And his current moveset uses a lot of weapons already, he is like a swiss knife. Giving him the Klown Kar from the New Super Mario Bros. series was a good idea to make him stand out.

And I don't understand the changes you are talking about for DK and Bowser. I played DK Tropical Freeze, and nothing there was notable enough to be used as a new move for DK. He still rolls, he still throws things, he still punches and he still hand slaps; just like in Smash and the old DKC games. They even updated his FS.
Same with Bowser, his moveset captures the brutality of his character. He more or less brings in a new gimmick on each Mario game but the essentials remain unchanged. He can stomp, breathe fire, swipe or punch.

With the other two Links, they are almost perfectly faithful to how they fight in their home series and perform well enough to sometimes even outshine Link. 3D Zelda games share an abundant amount of common moves and weapons. Their sword slashes, spin attack and items are consistent with how they've worked in those games. Those items you speak of tend to be a one time gimmick unique to the game they first appear in. For instance, is not necessary to sacrifice Toon Link's Spin Attack for a Deku Leaf recovery.


I don't understand some of the other examples you suggest. How would Captain Falcon, Fox, Wolf and Falco be updated? And a better question: why should they?
From what non existing canon material would Falcon pull from? Same goes for Fox, Wolf and Falco. And no, turning them into artillery based fighters like in the walking sections of Star Fox Assault would be too jarring at this point.
And Olimar? What exactly is wrong with him now?
And Lucas? Megaman? Pacman? ZSS? Robin? Frickin' Ken?
At least elaborate on what is wrong about them that warrants to be updated. As I said before, there is no need to fix what is not broken.
I'm gonna quickly reply here because I need to sleep, because I've been thinking about how to rework a LOT of characters that you mentioned here, some big, some small, and I think the main reason I would do it at this point honestly is not just about canon relevance and accuracy, but to make fighters more unique to each other and give a lot more potentially crazy ideas to work into Smash.

For example, I was thinking about a replacement for Mario's cape that would be the Cappy Throw, because super original, right? But you could throw Cappy up down and forward and hold the button to make him a jump off platform like in the games. However, I had the idea that if you hit an opponent with Cappy during his throw, Mario will briefly possess the fighter hit and teleport to them, and immediately put himself next to them.

This would work as a combo extender, which furthers Mario's combo based playstyle while still adding in a new reference. It also gives more recovery and potential creativity in edgeguarding.

Your idea of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is valid, but it also is playing it FAR too safe I feel, especially for a series with so much potential. Some characters, especially the semi-clones and most echoes, deserve better than what they have right now. And take a look at Rivals of Aether, where some characters don't even have any real connection to any Smash characters in the slightest like Forsburn, Sylvanos, Elliana, and Etalus, while ones who do have some connection to old characters like Zetterburn, Ranno, and Clairen STILL bring many new things to the table in the form of burn damage, poison stacks and bubble traps, and stunning tippers and projectile nullification zones.

This series has the capacity to be FAR FAR more creative, and I think simply asking for more of the same means we eventually will just get nothing new to work with, or at least nothing new enough to have us actually engage more with the game.
 
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1FC0

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Volt Tackle as the FS should stay because its the signature move of the Pikachu line.
Why is a signature move of the whole Pikachu line more suited as FS for Pikachu than a signature move that belongs specifically to Pikachu?

Catastropika is an extra powerful move that has special requirements before it can be used in order to compensate for it's power. FS's are extra powerful moves that have special requirements before they can be used to compensate for their power.

Volt Tackle can be used whenever Pikachu wants to, has Base Power equal to Thunder (which is a normal special of his), does recoil damage, and is exactly the same as Flare Blitz (a normal >B in this game) except it is another Type.

At the time of SSBB Volt Tackle was the most suited move but now Catastopika is much better suited because it is more specific to Pikachu and has more FS-like properties than regular moves have.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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Why is a signature move of the whole Pikachu line more suited as FS for Pikachu than a signature move that belongs specifically to Pikachu?

Catastropika is an extra powerful move that has special requirements before it can be used in order to compensate for it's power. FS's are extra powerful moves that have special requirements before they can be used to compensate for their power.

Volt Tackle can be used whenever Pikachu wants to, has Base Power equal to Thunder (which is a normal special of his), does recoil damage, and is exactly the same as Flare Blitz (a normal >B in this game) except it is another Type.

At the time of SSBB Volt Tackle was the most suited move but now Catastopika is much better suited because it is more specific to Pikachu and has more FS-like properties than regular moves have.
Oh, I know that. But Volt Tackle still works pretty well for Pikachu, so there is no need to apply a change for the sake of change.
 

ZaneHitsurugi

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I'd rather have something like the MK moveset choices. As someone who's been using fox since 64 I'd hate to see him lose that moveset. If anyone should be changed to reflect some of the stuff from assault, it should be Falco.
Also Captain Falcon's smash moveset is legendary. The fact that the Falcon Punch was used in the climax of the F-Zero anime just says how iconic it is for smash., it should never leave.
 
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And yet I dislike a significant portion of them, such as Ganondorf's sword Smashes, Bowser's continued upright stance and Link's BotW moves.
I will not understand your preferences sometimes, man. Like, I kinda understand the Ganon changes, but in a completely different sense in that it wasn't far enough. Plus, that sword could be replaced with a sword actually used by Ganon, like in Hyrule Warriors, or Beast Ganon's swords.

Personally, Ganondorf is one of those characters that I would just rehaul from the ground up no matter what. Bowser meanwhile, wasn't really rework in the same sense as anyone else. What changed the most is his animations and his posture, but his moveset's purpose and overall feel was pretty much the same, minus actually being fast running wise. Yet you don't like this because it changes his animations, yet at the same time you say changing animations is not a big deal, otherwise you would be shocked and appalled at the plethora of new animations Ultimate has given to veteran characters.

Bowser's purpose wasn't really changed from SSBB to SSB4, though it might seem that way due to buffs and nerfs rather than the animations themselves. But he is still a juggernaut, he is just also fast on his feet. It's a playstyle change, but if Bowser was as slow as he was in Brawl, but still with all of his new move animations, he would also play the same, because those animations are inconsequential when taking into account how the move itself changed.

But we have playstyle shifts all the time from game to game. Sonic in SSB4 was a bait and punish character, but in Ultimate seems to be more rushdown oriented. Palutena in SSB4 was mostly played defensively, but in Ultimate has a form of "defensive offense" and stage control that wasn't present. In SSB4, Bayonetta was a jack of all trades master of everything, and now she is a combo monster with lacking kill power and vulnerability in approaching in Ultimate. These things change naturally.
 

Quillion

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I will not understand your preferences sometimes, man. Like, I kinda understand the Ganon changes, but in a completely different sense in that it wasn't far enough. Plus, that sword could be replaced with a sword actually used by Ganon, like in Hyrule Warriors, or Beast Ganon's swords.

Personally, Ganondorf is one of those characters that I would just rehaul from the ground up no matter what. Bowser meanwhile, wasn't really rework in the same sense as anyone else. What changed the most is his animations and his posture, but his moveset's purpose and overall feel was pretty much the same, minus actually being fast running wise. Yet you don't like this because it changes his animations, yet at the same time you say changing animations is not a big deal, otherwise you would be shocked and appalled at the plethora of new animations Ultimate has given to veteran characters.
I don't think all animation changes are bad. I just think that Bowser and Ganondorf's portrayals were just so fun when they threw caution to the wind and ran on Rule of Cool. I know that being faithful to canon is important to some people, but it really shouldn't be as obsessive as it seems to be for DK and Ganon.

Also, we are talking about portrayals here. Not playstyles.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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Tell that to the dozens of moveset changes in Ultimate.
Just because some changes occurred, that doesn't make them the norm for everything. Biggest and most significant moveset change I can think of is Link, and they probably felt compelled to do it because there were two other ones with a similar one that could fullfill that role.

I can't pretend that I know what the devs are thinking, but with some moves like Pikachu's FS, they probably thought it was in a good place and felt comfortable enough with it to keep, and just decided to change the mechanics of how it worked instead.

I want to add as well that visual wise, Catastropika is pretty much a slightly juiced up version of Volt Tackle with added choreography with Pikachu's trainer and an added explosion at the end. I would say that other Pikachu Z move might have been a better contestant for a Final Smash, but I like what he has now.
 

1FC0

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I can't pretend that I know what the devs are thinking, but with some moves like Pikachu's FS, they probably thought it was in a good place and felt comfortable enough with it to keep, and just decided to change the mechanics of how it worked instead.
That is true I forgot they changed it anyway so they could just as well have changed it into something fitting.
I want to add as well that visual wise, Catastropika is pretty much a slightly juiced up version of Volt Tackle with added choreography with Pikachu's trainer and an added explosion at the end. I would say that other Pikachu Z move might have been a better contestant for a Final Smash, but I like what he has now.
10.000.000 Volt Thunderbolt seems pretty fitting indeed. At first I mentioned Catastropika because only the capped Pikachu learns 10.000.000 Volt Thunderbolt but that is a stupid reason since Cosplay Pikachu will use the FS too and she learns neither and referring to Hat Pikachu in Pikachu's moveset is pretty cool actually.
 
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