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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Cosmic77

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So yet again, I was thinking about the state of CP11, so I looked at the Final Characters for the Previous games

Brawl: Olimar (Pre-Release), Wolf (Post-Release)

Smash 4: Shulk (Pre-Release), Bowser Jr/Duck Hunt (Post-Release), Bayonetta (DLC)

Ultimate: Ken/Incineroar/Pirahana Plant (Base), Byleth (FP1)

So I do know the whole thing about putting the characters near the beginning/Middle to get the sales early, but looking at the circumstances around these characters, These characters couldn't actually be anything other than last

I'm not sure on Olimar and Shulk to be honest. They both have similarities in that they both come from New, though Niche Nintendo I.Ps. They aren't the biggest reveals, but they still are decent, especially since Shulk was somewhat of a popular request I hear. In any case, these characters probably could have been developed earlier, though they both are complex characters.

But when it comes to Wolf, He was one of, if not the Last character added to the game in terms of development, since he could be added with the time the team had left since he could re-use assets from Fox and Falco. And this also applies to Bowser Jr. Sakurai commented that Bowser Jr. was really lucky to get into the game, which implies he was one of the Last fighters to be added in.

For Duck Hunt, it seems that historically, the "Surprise characters" of Smash (which Duck hunt is classified as) typically are among the last characters to be developed. this applies to G&W in Melee as an example. And it also probably applies to Pirahana Plant, to the point where Plant had to be Pre-order DLC, instead of being a Base Roster

Incineroar and Byleth couldn't have been developed any earlier. A Gen 7 Pokemon was reserved a spot on the Base roster, but for awhile it was unsure who the actual Fighter would be. You can't develop a Fighter you don't even know who it's gonna be, and the Dev Team knows who the other Newcomers are gonna be.

This is also the same thing with Three Houses. While it was set that the Fighter would come from Three Houses since that was the game that met Nintendo's Quota of "a Fighter from a game people are playing now", Sakurai and the team couldn't start development without first playing a Early build of the game first. It's unknown when exactly Sakurai played the Build, but if it was not in 2018/Very early 2019, there's no way Byleth could have been in any other spot than the last character in Pass 1

This is also the Same thing with Corrin, since Fates was a really recent game (to the point the U.S didn't have the game when Corrin was revealed), however this might also be the case for Bayonetta, since she was the Ballot winner. Of course there is evidence that Bayonetta likely wasn't chosen strictly because of the ballot, as Data alluding to her came out 2 weeks after the Ballot was announced

But there is good evidence that she was the Last character to be Planned. There was one extra Placeholder spot that was added to Smash 4 internal slot count, and this ended up being used For Bayonetta. I also think they also waited after Bayonetta 2 was released to see the reception and everything. Unlike Corrin, Bayonetta wasn't chosen to represent a game people would be playing now, but because of her popularity.

The point of talking about all of this is to say that I don't necessarily think Nintendo chooses to end disappointing all the time. I do agree they do choose to reveal the bigger characters near the Beginning or Middle, but we have to establish why though

It's the type of characters picked that end up having to be revealed at the end or near the End. Characters like Corrin, Bayonetta, Incineraor, and Byleth couldn't be revealed any earlier if they wanted to, since it's likely by the time they had the assets/green light to start development, the other characters were well on their was to being developed

Now the rest of the characters theoretically could have been developed earlier on, and it does seem they were out-prioritized by more important characters in the roster in terms of development order. What I will say though is that the last characters tends to be among the more complicated of characters in terms of Development. Olimar, Shulk, Duck Hunt, and Bayonetta have Complex Mechanics going on, and Duck Hunt is special since he had to pretty much be brought back to life in 3D, since his last appearance was Duck Hunt on NES

The interesting thing is despite some of these characters being considered disappointing, Alot of the reasoning for the characters being added in was because of popularity with the fans. Wolf, Bowser Jr. (he might be more speculative), and Bayonetta were added because there were requests for these characters. Shulk is the definition of a character for the fans, since the fans are the reason Xenoblade got reprinted and stuff. Bayonetta is important here since she was the ender of Smash 4 DLC

People talk about how Nintendo doesn't care about the fans when Chossing DLC, especially when it comes to ending it, and stuff like that, but Bayonetta does actually go against that idea. She Actually represents an ideal type of Final Character that people want to see. The Idea of the FP2 ending on a character like Waluigi for example does have some creditability thanks to Bayonetta ending the Smash 4 DLC

So in regards to CP11, I think there is a good reason why they are last. If the character was not chosen to "Represent a game people would be playing Now", or isn't a recent character in general. then there is probably going to be some hooplah that makes CP11 a really interesting character. I trust Nintendo that they picked an ending character that will appeal to the people. This character was worth being developed, as FP2 could have just been 5 characters like FP1. Nintendo has a good reason to have chosen to have this character developed, and if it's not to be advertisement character, than DLC History in the past shows it's probably something the fans will like
I've seen you make this point about Bayonetta a few times, and while I get what you're trying to say, Bayo was already in the works before the ballot was even announced. In the end, I don't think it mattered much what the fans thought of her. Nintendo had money invested in her franchise, and Smash was going to give her the boost she needed. She did end up being a decently popular request leading up to her reveal (not nearly as much as many others, but still). Regardless, she was a controversial end to Smash 4, and things could've gone far far worse if Nintendo failed to pass her off as a believable ballot winner. It all comes across as them getting lucky.

Personally, when I look at the last few characters of every set of new fighters, I just don’t see a pattern.

:ultrob::ulttoonlink::ultwolf::ultshulk::ultbowserjr::ultduckhunt::ultcorrin::ultbayonetta::ultken::ultincineroar::ult_terry::ultbyleth::ultkazuya:
 
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Metal Shop X

CHAINSAW POWEEEEEEEER
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I can see it now.
  • Nintendo announced the last character slot will go down to a ballot
  • SMTV Protagonist wins
  • Their preliminary was found to be added in an earlier patch
  • Sega again gets another "fan favorite" character
Bayonetta... TWO.
But...
skeleton wait huh.jpg
Bayonetta 2 as already been released years earlier...
 

Twilord

Smash Ace
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So, in other words...bribing a developer into reading 50,000 or so words of why Shrek should be in Smash.
Probably not an actual developer, more likely a hired go-between. Possibly a professional editing office.

Beat you to the punch man, i already did that with Simon. That's right lads i got Simon into the game, just look at this behemoth of an OP i did 3 years ago.

(my only regret is praising the Netflix show, now i pretend it's an edgy fanfic, but whatever)
Congratulations! You are responsible for every spammy zoning player who uses them too now though.

I'd find a way.

And Brian of course. Like, not even a contest at this point for me. So to speak.
Any hypothetical chapter concepts? I probably won't be in a position to exploit, undermine or manipulate your argument
 

WeirdChillFever

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Hypothetically, if there was a contest to 'win' a slot for your character of choice in Smash Bros, but in order to enter it you had to submit a 50,000 word thesis on why they deserved to get in - would you enter? And for who?
I would’ve for Daisy, but I’m not sure I have a character I love so much I could write a 50k essay about them. But if I had, I would do it because writing a long post like that would actually be really cool. Like, I desperately wish I had a character I want that bad but I’ve already been catered to after my speculation shifted wholesale to Daisy and E3 2018 slurped open that power vacuum that wasn’t filled since outside by a select few joke characters. But I would really really want a character enough to automatically be like “of course I’ll write a 50k essay for you Mr. Sakurai”
 
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ZelDan

Smash Master
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Messages
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New Hampshire
I can see it now.
  • Nintendo announced the last character slot will go down to a ballot
  • SMTV Protagonist wins
  • Their preliminary was found to be added in an earlier patch
  • Sega again gets another "fan favorite" character
Bayonetta... TWO.
So does this mean Nabahino (sp?) will end up being super OP to the point of being hated, and that when he comes back in Smash 6 he will booed by Smash fans despite the fact that no actual gameplay showing him or other characters has been shown yet?
 

TheLamerGamer

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Messages
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I've seen you make this point about Bayonetta a few times, and while I get what you're trying to say, Bayo was already in the works before the ballot was even announced. In the end, I don't think it mattered much what the fans thought of her. Nintendo had money invested in her franchise, and Smash was going to give her the boost she needed. She did end up being a decently popular request leading up to her reveal (not nearly as much as many others, but still). Regardless, she was a controversial end to Smash 4, and things could've gone far far worse if Nintendo failed to pass her off as a believable ballot winner. It all comes across as them getting lucky.

Personally, when I look at the last few characters of every set of new fighters, I just don’t see a pattern.

:ultrob::ulttoonlink::ultwolf::ultshulk::ultbowserjr::ultduckhunt::ultcorrin::ultbayonetta::ultken::ultincineroar::ult_terry::ultbyleth::ultkazuya:
For bayonetta I've wondered for a while if people misunderstood her inclusion. In my opinion, there's a chance they were adding her as DLC but not as the ballot winner from the start. But when they saw that she was winning the ballot they moved her to the end. That would mess up their development though, since that would leave them with one less fighter than planned, and that's why they added Corrin, since they wanted to fill that slot, but didn't want to negotiate for another character.

So unlike what most people think, the ballot might not have been rigged (it still could have been though).
 

Theguy123

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Would be cool if the last character was an anti villain or anti hero. We haven’t really had one in any of the passes. It’s always been a full on villain or full on hero. Would be nice to see someone who’s part hero part villain get Announced.
 

Twilord

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I don't see why people assume it was always Bayonetta. Elma and Corrin would have made more sense for Nintendo to advertise, but obviously Elma and Bayonetta are both dual wielding slide kicking badass Wii-U women, which Nintendo may have felt too samey. Convert Project Mira to Project Cereza, then put the resources arranged for the ballot winner to someone more mainstream like Cloud. - Whoops Bayonetta and Cloud are the least balanced characters in the game!

Also kinda obvious that if they were gonna lie about which of those three characters won the ballot they would have said Cloud.
 
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RileyXY1

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Would be cool if the last character was an anti villain or anti hero. We haven’t really had one in any of the passes. It’s always been a full on villain or full on hero. Would be nice to see someone who’s part hero part villain get Announced.
Technically Kazyua was one. His morality changes depending on the game.
 

TheLamerGamer

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Would be cool if the last character was an anti villain or anti hero. We haven’t really had one in any of the passes. It’s always been a full on villain or full on hero. Would be nice to see someone who’s part hero part villain get Announced.
You could maybe make an argument for Kazuya since he was the protagonist of the first tekken. And Steve can be as constructive or destructive as you want in Minecraft but that's pushing it.

An SMT rep could fit that as well, since there isn't usually a good or bad ending, you just have different alignments (or reasons in nocturne), and they all have positive and negative aspects. In nocturne you can straight up destroy the world permanently, and that's just as valid an ending as the rest of them. Same with IV.
 

Gengar84

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You could maybe make an argument for Kazuya since he was the protagonist of the first tekken. And Steve can be as constructive or destructive as you want in Minecraft but that's pushing it.

An SMT rep could fit that as well, since there isn't usually a good or bad ending, you just have different alignments (or reasons in nocturne), and they all have positive and negative aspects. In nocturne you can straight up destroy the world permanently, and that's just as valid an ending as the rest of them. Same with IV.
Two of my top three most wanted characters are basically antiheroes (Magus from Chrono Trigger and Zegram Ghart from Rogue Galaxy). Sarah Kerrigan, Illidan Stormrage, Sub-Zero, and Velvet Crowe are also among my most wanted.
 
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Aerospherology

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I can see it now.
  • Nintendo announced the last character slot will go down to a ballot
  • SMTV Protagonist wins
  • Their preliminary was found to be added in an earlier patch
  • Sega again gets another "fan favorite" character
Bayonetta... TWO.
Totally not biased at all, nope!
 
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Theguy123

Smash Lord
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Wonder if the last character will be someone with a spirit already in the game since we have 3 non spirit character and 2 spirit character. A third spirit character would even things out.

It’s funny how there’s soo many patterns when it comes to this pass and they’ll probably not even be related to the last character (maybe some but not all). It’s just fun to speculate I guess
 

Gengar84

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Wonder if the last character will be someone with a spirit already in the game since we have 3 non spirit character and 2 spirit character. A third spirit character would even things out.

It’s funny how there’s soo many patterns when it comes to this pass and they’ll probably not even be related to the last character (maybe some but not all). It’s just fun to speculate I guess
If spirits don’t end up disqualifying a character, I think Akira Howard from Astral Chain would be a really cool character for Smash. They might be impossible due to the fact that Sakurai couldn’t get Rex to work but I’d be more than happy with Jena Anderson as a replacement. They could add Akira in the next game if the console is powerful enough to handle that kind of character.
 

Twilord

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Honestly can't believe people think the ballot was rigged because the character eponymous with the Wii-U's exclusive GOTY candidate the year before the ballot won instead of a SNES crocodile.

Their best argument is because of some random file they found that at most probably means they repurposed Bayonetta from another character; most likely Elma as a Wii-U first-party counterpart to Corrin from 3DS since the Wii-U and 3DS thing was the whole theme of the twin installments. I think we can all agree that two dual-wielding slide-tackling Wii-U Warrior Women with extensive combat training and relatively realistic graphics might have seemed like a bit much to end on; so it would have made sense to repurpose Elma (in house, first party) into Bayonetta (third party) - even though Elma deserved to get in far more than Corrin.

I mean I'll grant there is a high likelihood Sora won, but that when they started talks with Square and Disney they found that the closest thing they could get was Cloud, so added him as a conciliation prize and repurposed LikelyElma into Bayonetta (second place among actual video-game-characters); and thus ended up rushedly adding the two most broken characters in the game.

----------------------------

Astounding to me those people have convinced themselves Nintendo lied completely, then funded a third Bayonetta game to cover it up. Lets not pretend its anything but delusion.

The real question is did K.Rool actually do well in the Smash Ballot at all, or did Sakurai lie about that to try and get those toxic fools to piss off. We'll never know.

Obvious sarcasm in that last line; but if we get to pretend Sakurai is lying through his teeth whenever we feel like it I might as well join in on the festivities. My challenge to anyone who wants to argue further however is to prove that isn't how K.Rool got in.
 
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StrangeKitten

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If the Sims were in Smash, I picture the Final Smash having opponents drown in a pool with no ladder.

(Reference to the infamous pool trap)
They always told me I'd drown in pools if I ever went to a tournament. With a Sims rep, I'd get hit by their Final Smash and be able to do it literally!

Just stfu and pretend tournaments are played with Final Smashes on for the sake of this joke
 

Gengar84

Smash Hero
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Messages
5,548
Honestly can't believe people think the ballot was rigged because the character eponymous with the Wii-U's exclusive GOTY candidate the year before the ballot won instead of a SNES crocodile.

Their best argument is because of some random file they found that at most probably means they repurposed Bayonetta from another character; most likely Elma as a Wii-U first-party counterpart to Corrin from 3DS since the Wii-U and 3DS thing was the whole theme of the twin installments. I think we can all agree that two dual-wielding slide-tackling Wii-U Warrior Women with extensive combat training and relatively realistic graphics might have seemed like a bit much to end on; so it would have made sense to repurpose Elma (in house, first party) into Bayonetta (third party) - even though Elma deserved to get in far more than Corrin.

I mean I'll grant there is a high likelihood Sora won, but that when they started talks with Square and Disney they found that the closest thing they could get was Cloud, so added him as a conciliation prize and repurposed LikelyElma into Bayonetta (second place among actual video-game-characters); and thus ended up rushedly adding the two most broken characters in the game.

----------------------------

Astounding to me those people have convinced themselves Nintendo lied completely, then funded a third Bayonetta game to cover it up. Lets not pretend its anything but delusion.

The real question is did K.Rool actually do well in the Smash Ballot at all, or did Sakurai lie about that to try and get those toxic fools to piss off. We'll never know.

Obvious sarcasm in that last line; but if we get to pretend Sakurai is lying through his teeth whenever we feel like it I might as well join in on the festivities. My challenge to anyone who wants to argue further however is to prove that isn't how K.Rool got in.
Well it all worked out in the end so I’m not too bothered by it either way.
 

DarthEnderX

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Honestly can't believe people think the ballot was rigged because the character eponymous with the Wii-U's exclusive GOTY candidate the year before the ballot won instead of a SNES crocodile.
I dunno who tf you think made Bayo 2 their GOTY, but there's no ****ing WAY Bayo won that ballot, even just in Europe.

I mean I'll grant there is a high likelihood Sora won, but that when they started talks with Square and Disney they found that the closest thing they could get was Cloud, so added him as a conciliation prize and repurposed LikelyElma into Bayonetta (second place among actual video-game-characters); and thus ended up rushedly adding the two most broken characters in the game.
What part of "DLC characters are chosen at least 2 years in advance" confuses you?

Cloud and Bayo were both selected before Nintendo saw even a single ballot vote.
 
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Twilord

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Well it all worked out in the end so I’m not too bothered by it either way.

Honestly same... but kind of annoyed because I made the case to people a lot in those days that:

Vote for Bayonetta = Bayonetta 2
Vote for Dark Samus = Metroid Prime 4
Vote for Ridley = More Metroid in general
Vote for Dixie = More Country Returns
Vote for K.Rool = Risk of ending Country Returns by making the devs feel their games are invalid
 

Ivander

Smash Legend
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
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I dunno who tf you think made Bayo 2 their GOTY, but there's no ****ing WAY Bayo won that ballot, even just in Europe.
Didn't Nintendo even tag something like, "Out of all possible or applicable characters" when they were talking about Bayonetta's placements in the Ballot?
 

CapitaineCrash

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I really wonder why the Rhythm Heaven character was completely scrapped to this day. My best guess is that the 3DS limitations may have played a part in its eventual demise especially considering that characters like Lucas, Roy and Mewtwo were added later in development so it wasnt like they couldnt just wait for DLC to add them in.
Honestly there was probably multiple reasons. In a Interview with Nintendo dream Sakurai said this: "This time our project-proposal is dated May 2012, at that time all characters were decided already. Then as production moves on we will say “We won’t put that character in” and cut out low-priority-characters. (...) About the order of which character has priority, the characters that don’t have a new title coming up have an overwhelming disadvantage…even characters that we ended up including could have been left out if development had progressed differently." (You can read the full interview here.)

Rhythm heaven was probably considered very early on in May 2012 because Rhythm heaven Fever just released in North America and was planned to release soon in Europe (February 2012 in North America, July 2012 in Europe, July 2011 in Japan). It was probably considered low priority because of the franchise low popularity in comparaison to other Smash 4 pick and the fact that no other game was planned after that (Megamix did release in 2015 but it probably wasn't in development that early).
 

WeirdChillFever

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Honestly can't believe people think the ballot was rigged because the character eponymous with the Wii-U's exclusive GOTY candidate the year before the ballot won instead of a SNES crocodile.

Their best argument is because of some random file they found that at most probably means they repurposed Bayonetta from another character; most likely Elma as a Wii-U first-party counterpart to Corrin from 3DS since the Wii-U and 3DS thing was the whole theme of the twin installments. I think we can all agree that two dual-wielding slide-tackling Wii-U Warrior Women with extensive combat training and relatively realistic graphics might have seemed like a bit much to end on; so it would have made sense to repurpose Elma (in house, first party) into Bayonetta (third party) - even though Elma deserved to get in far more than Corrin.

I mean I'll grant there is a high likelihood Sora won, but that when they started talks with Square and Disney they found that the closest thing they could get was Cloud, so added him as a conciliation prize and repurposed LikelyElma into Bayonetta (second place among actual video-game-characters); and thus ended up rushedly adding the two most broken characters in the game.

----------------------------

Astounding to me those people have convinced themselves Nintendo lied completely, then funded a third Bayonetta game to cover it up. Lets not pretend its anything but delusion.

The real question is did K.Rool actually do well in the Smash Ballot at all, or did Sakurai lie about that to try and get those toxic fools to piss off. We'll never know.

Obvious sarcasm in that last line; but if we get to pretend Sakurai is lying through his teeth whenever we feel like it I might as well join in on the festivities. My challenge to anyone who wants to argue further however is to prove that isn't how K.Rool got in.
I’m not sure how “Bayonetta was a repurposed version of a pre-planned Elma because they both dual wield something on Wii U” is less of a conspiracy theory than “They didn’t really wait for all the ballot votes to come in when deciding on Bayonetta”
 

Twilord

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Didn't Nintendo even tag something like, "Out of all possible or applicable characters" when they were talking about Bayonetta's placements in the Ballot?
*among realizable characters
Negotiable and realisable.

So a puppet owned by the same people who just gave them Cloud or a first-party crocodile would probably be pretty easy.



I dunno who tf you think made Bayo 2 their GOTY, but there's no ****ing WAY Bayo won that ballot, even just in Europe.
Literally a candidate at The Game Awards for GOTY 2014. How can you not know that and have such strong opinions about a vote that would have mostly been participated in by the most active Nintendo gamers in 2015?

Honestly its not worth my time to continue this conversation if the basis of your conspiracy is a combination of echo-chamber and Dunning-Kruger Effect.



What part of "DLC characters are chosen at least 2 years in advance" confuses you?

Cloud and Bayo were both selected before Nintendo saw even a single ballot vote.
Are you seriously arguing that because they're taking two years to do it currently it always did?

Most I can find in defense of your statement is him saying it 'can' take a year on the extreme end.

Five months from the end of the ballot - dreadfully unbalanced. Seems to check out.




I’m not sure how “Bayonetta was a repurposed version of a pre-planned Elma because they both dual wield something on Wii U” is less of a conspiracy theory than “They didn’t really wait for all the ballot votes to come in when deciding on Bayonetta”
Because its not a conspiracy to explain how a thing could have happened exactly how you were told by the people involved, when you're simply including a bit more information into that framework.
 
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WeirdChillFever

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Negotiable and realisable.

So a puppet owned by the same people who just gave them Cloud or a first-party crocodile would probably be pretty easy.





Literally a candidate at The Game Awards for GOTY 2014. How can you not know that and have such strong opinions about a vote that would have mostly been participated in by the most active Nintendo gamers in 2015?

Honestly its not worth my time to continue this conversation if the basis of your conspiracy is a combination of echo-chamber and Dunning-Kruger Effect.





Are you seriously arguing that because they're taking two years to do it currently it always did?

Most I can find in defense of your statement is him saying it 'can' take a year on the extreme end.

Five months from the end of the ballot - dreadfully unbalanced. Seems to check out.






Because its not a conspiracy to explain how a thing could have happened exactly how you were told by the people involved, when you're simply including a bit more information into that framework.
Yeah, it’s just that that extra information seems to come out of nowhere in a post that condemns those that think the circumstances were fishy as out-there theorists (and throws Corrin under the bus in the same post since in both of your scenarios he’s just an afterthought to either the ”more deserving” Elma or to hide the merging of ballot winner and first party recent star).
 

CapitaineCrash

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Honestly same... but kind of annoyed because I made the case to people a lot in those days that:

Vote for Bayonetta = Bayonetta 2
Vote for Dark Samus = Metroid Prime 4
Vote for Ridley = More Metroid in general
Vote for Dixie = More Country Returns
Vote for K.Rool = Risk of ending Country Returns by making the devs feel their games are invalid
Bayonetta 2 was announced in 2012, the ballot was in 2015. Beside, you seriously think that Nintendo stop the Donkey kong country series because of K.rool popularity? How about, I don't know, making a actual DKC with K.rool? If Retro stop making DKC it has nothing to do with K.rool popularity in the Smash fanbase, they just moved on to other stuff.
 

Twilord

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Yeah, it’s just that that extra information seems to come out of nowhere in a post that condemns those that think the circumstances were fishy as out-there theorists (and throws Corrin under the bus in the same post since in both of your scenarios he’s just an afterthought to either the ”more deserving” Elma or to hide the merging of ballot winner and first party recent star).
I didn't say Corrin was an afterthought; my argument is that both Corrin and Elma were intended - since the aesthetic of Smash 4 was about being on both platforms. So having Elma and Corrin, and then the Ballot Winner would be a really sensible ending aesthetic.

But Bayonetta messes that up by filling that same niche despite being third party.


Lets be honest about two things:

If any of us had to lie and claim one or those three won would we really claim Bayonetta and not Cloud?

If we were Nintendo and wanted to advertise a Wii U franchise would we really pick the third party one that could easily flip back to being multiplatform on its third game (Platinum's Bayonetta) instead of pushing the fledgling flagship franchise of our newest in-house studio (Monolithsoft's Xenoblade)?
 

Þe 1 → Way

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Wouldn’t You Like To Know?
Because its not a conspiracy to explain how a thing could have happened exactly how you were told by the people involved, when you're simply including a bit more information into that framework.
If Elma was planned but changed to Bayonetta, this would make several issues.

A. Nintendo originally intended Smash 4 to have another fighter after Elma, who would be the ballot winner. This was changed once Bayonetta won the ballot and Nintendo realized they could take the easy way out.
This scenario is a massive stretch as it assumes Nintendo would overthrow their schedule just because of some design similarities.

B. Nintendo started the Ballot thinking no Smash 4 DLC would be influenced by it. Meaning they lied anyway about the ballots impact.

C. Nintendo started making Elma with full knowledge they wouldn’t finish her, and then lucked out in Bayonetta winning allowing them to use her framework. I don’t think I need to explain what is wrong with this one.

No matter how you slice it, Elma being in development and then being dropped for Bayonetta is a massive stretch compared to “Lets just start making Bayonetta and use the support she gets during the ballot as justification.”
 
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WeirdChillFever

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I didn't say Corrin was an afterthought; my argument is that both Corrin and Elma were intended - since the aesthetic of Smash 4 was about being on both platforms. So having Elma and Corrin, and then the Ballot Winner would be a really sensible ending aesthetic.

But Bayonetta messes that up by filling that same niche despite being third party.


Lets be honest about two things:

If any of us had to lie and claim one or those three won would we really claim Bayonetta and not Cloud?

If we were Nintendo and wanted to advertise a Wii U franchise would we really pick the third party one that could easily flip back to being multiplatform on its third game (Platinum's Bayonetta) instead of pushing the fledgling flagship franchise of our newest in-house studio (Monolithsoft's Xenoblade)?
I think the theory just works better if Elma is kept out of it entirely, since the other points you present all make sense. The whole “aesthetic“ of 3DS and WiiU wasn’t emphasized for Bayonetta and Corrin, Bayonetta’s final playstyle maybe resembling Elma’s doesn’t account for the fact they looked at pther playstyles for Bayo and no matter how you slice it, they’d have cut a character to account for the ballot results which would also be dishonest.

I’m not really sure on ballot dates and when which slot was found so I can’t really make a better theory that accounts for both the slot and gives Bayonetta the benefit of the doubt but the insistence on the existence of an Elma merge makes little sense when the other parts of your theory are all based on this Occam‘s Razor logic of “Lying about Bayo doesn’t make sense”. That‘s all.
 

CapitaineCrash

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I didn't say Corrin was an afterthought; my argument is that both Corrin and Elma were intended - since the aesthetic of Smash 4 was about being on both platforms. So having Elma and Corrin, and then the Ballot Winner would be a really sensible ending aesthetic.

But Bayonetta messes that up by filling that same niche despite being third party.


Lets be honest about two things:

If any of us had to lie and claim one or those three won would we really claim Bayonetta and not Cloud?

If we were Nintendo and wanted to advertise a Wii U franchise would we really pick the third party one that could easily flip back to being multiplatform on its third game (Platinum's Bayonetta) instead of pushing the fledgling flagship franchise of our newest in-house studio (Monolithsoft's Xenoblade)?
Honestly even assuming you're right and Elma was planned as dlc, would Nintendo seriously cut her because of Bayonetta popularity? Smash Ultimate DLC have Byleth, Min Min and Pyra Mythra who all fill the same niche "newly released first party Switch games". I don't think they would have cancelled Elma just because Bayo was coming after. I haven't played Xenoblade chronicles X but it's pretty obvious that Elma would be more than different enough to Bayonetta, Elma could have focused way more on gun than Bayonetta does and would be less combo heavy.
 

Twilord

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Bayonetta 2 was announced in 2012, the ballot was in 2015. Beside, you seriously think that Nintendo stop the Donkey kong country series because of K.rool popularity? How about, I don't know, making a actual DKC with K.rool? If Retro stop making DKC it has nothing to do with K.rool popularity in the Smash fanbase, they just moved on to other stuff.

Meant Bayonetta 3, hopefully correcting that typo late won't be held against me as a huge retcon of my argument.

Retro Studios leaving a franchise they felt they weren't having any creative impact on because of that fan response seems a valid concern. They would have just used the Kremlings already if that wasn't important to them.


but the insistence on the existence of an Elma merge makes little sense when the other parts of your theory are all based on this Occam‘s Razor logic of “Lying about Bayo doesn’t make sense”. That‘s all.
Fair comment. It is just what makes sense to me as a hypothetical and as an example of other types of theory for people to explore.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I’ve always believed that the ballot was always for Ultimate but Nintendo just didn’t want to announce the game at the time. I don’t really think Bayonetta actually won the ballot but it doesn’t matter much because Ultimate came out shortly after.
They literally said something like that, they said the ballot would be used for future installments yet for some reason people chose to pretend this never happened
 

SneakyLink

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They literally said something like that, they said the ballot would be used for future installments yet for some reason people chose to pretend this never happened
I think it’s only because the disclaimer of future installments was not present in all regions.

I don’t recall seeing it when I used the ballot for instance.

That or it’s a Berenstain/Berenstein sort of deal where it was there but we remember it differently.
 

CapitaineCrash

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Meant Bayonetta 3, hopefully correcting that typo late won't be held against me as a huge retcon of my argument.

Retro Studios leaving a franchise they felt they weren't having any creative impact on because of that fan response seems a valid concern. They would have just used the Kremlings already if that wasn't important to them.
Even for Bayonetta 3, I'm pretty sure that Platinumgames talk to Nintendo to fund a sequel and not the other way around, so unless Platinumgames had ballot votes results I think it's safe to assume that it didn't really matter.

By the way, I still think Bayo could possibly have win the ballot. Smash fans forgot that people on forums don't make 100% of the ballot votes, it's pretty obvious that Bayonetta could have been popular to a silent majority considering that Bayonetta 2 was one of the wii u biggest exclusive. I agree with your argument on Sora, it's possible that he won and Nintendo couldn't find a deal with Disney (Nintendo did say that Bayo won among possible characters).
 
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