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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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The Fantasy Smasher

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What’s he saying here?
"I've been waiting since the fighter movie was released, but it will be released today at 23:00 !!
Even if you are not familiar with "Smash Bros.", I think it is fun to watch it as a strange game program."

Rough translation.
 

2006ToyotaTacoma

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"I've been waiting since the fighter movie was released, but it will be released today at 23:00 !!
Even if you are not familiar with "Smash Bros.", I think it is fun to watch it as a strange game program."

Rough translation.
Basically, just a reminder of the time of the presentation. Nothing's changed.
 
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SpecterFlower

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He's one of the worst designed characters in any fighting game. His kit ensures that either the opponent either has to lame him out, which is likely unfun for both players, or attempts to fight him on Little Mac's terms, in which case his frame data and armor will **** on you. His strengths don't make up for his huge weaknesses and simply lead to binary gameplay that isn't enjoyable for the opponent to exploit.

It's a huge shame and an afront to the Punch-Out games that Mac was made into such an awful character. My hope is that he gets reworked in any future Smash games, into a character that better represents his home series and works better as a Smash character. Until that time I hope his current iteration remains bad, so that he doesn't remain the same from here on.
in my experience i just camp mac out to time, Mac never hit's me and i spend 5 minutes spamming the b button.

i kind of feel bad for he mac mains that i camp to no end but then again, they choose the character that the only viable option is to camp.
 
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Idon

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Do not look at Little Mac players.
Do not talk to Little Mac players.
Do not shake Little Mac players' hands.
 

SKX31

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But I never said that?
I'm going to be blunt and say: that that's what it came across as initially (at least for me) - especially without the context. No worries though, it's an honest misunderstanding between us two. Again, I do agree that if Little Mac's current kit was buffed it'd risk winding up in a very toxic position, especially with how railroaded the design is. And the railroading is what bothers me the most because it enforces the binary gameplay.

Can he be fun to play as thought? Personally I'd say yeah. His current design - flawed as it is - is a noble experiment, and even if it breaks down in practice it can still be a blast to mess around with because of those extreme strengths he posseses.

That's because of the style meter, people like getting compliments and seeing meters go up so by showing the player how they're doing makes players want to keep that ** high. Bayonetta's skill floor is significantly lower but the lack of style meter means that unless you're the kind of player who wants to get high scores aa soon as you bought the game, you can just press the same button over and over, DMC basically shows you your reward for doing well beforehand to make you go "Oh ** I want that".
That said, I don't think Dante would be that unlike Bayo - Bayonetta has no trouble dealing damage in Ultimate, even with her damage output nerfed overall. One look at her bread and butter combos shows that:


Bayo - at least in Ultimate - struggles with killing (outside of Smash Attacks, B-Air, gimps and maaaaaaaybe down air once in a blue edgeguard situation) because attacks like F-Air have seemingly no horizontal knockback at all in Ultimate.

One can imagine Dante in a similar fashion: Typically Dante's combos don't knock enemies back that far, and the attacks that do are typically charge moves (IIRC, it's been a while since I last played 4SE). So designing him around high damage output / little knockback could be a fair trade off really.
 
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Staarih

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"I've been waiting since the fighter movie was released, but it will be released today at 23:00 !!
Even if you are not familiar with "Smash Bros.", I think it is fun to watch it as a strange game program."

Rough translation.
I love the thought of someone tuning in who doesn't know what Smash is or what the presentation is about but still sits through it because it's "a strange game program".
 

Speed Weed

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Ah well looks like I misunderstood what they were trying to say lmao

But yeah, honestly, Mac is a dillemma because he's a ****ing fantastic character inclusion but really poor in terms of actual gameplay, which is something I hope to god they can fix someday so my guy can get the respect he deserves as an addition to the roster
 

SharkLord

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I'd personally choose Pokemon and Crash/Coco.
Euden/Reimu, easily. Reimu for a personal bias pick, the other because I've seen a lot of people not very positive regarding Euden and a sadistic, twisted part of me wants to see how they react :4pacman:
 

Otoad64

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On the topic of Little Mac, a joke Glass Joe Echo for him would be hilarious. This game needs a joke character.
Pichu shouldn't of been buffed imo

I'd personally choose Pokemon and Crash/Coco.
Crash and Pokemon easy. Especially if that Pokemon is Oshawott or Garchomp
 
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SharkLord

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Interestingly enough, isn't she more of a rushdown character in the fighting games? Tagging SharkLord SharkLord for confirmation.
Yeah, the fighters up her melee game a little. She's the main character of the series, so she's the most balanced and easy-to-learn fighter in those. That being said, the fighters still translate the shooter mechanics, like Grazing, flight, and lots of projectiles. Even if she draws mainly from the fighters, she'd still have a large amount of projectiles.
Here's the competitive wikis for Hisoutensoku and AoCF, for her movelists
Reimu Hakurei - Touhou Hisoutensoku (koumakan.jp)
Reimu Hakurei - Touhou Hyouibana (koumakan.jp)
 

HARBlNGER

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On the topic of Little Mac, a joke Glass Joe Echo for him would be hilarious. This game needs a joke character.
I'd rather have a different boxer like Hitmonchan but I know that will never happen. Heck, it's sad enough that he didn't even make it into Pokken.
 

Cutie Gwen

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On the topic of Little Mac, a joke Glass Joe Echo for him would be hilarious. This game needs a joke character.
We already have a joke character, the Miis, after all, what joke is funnier than you thinking your most wanted had a shot only to be a Mii Costume, skinned alive for this psychopath?
I'm going to be blunt and say: that that's what it came across as initially (at least for me) - especially without the context. No worries though, it's an honest misunderstanding between us two. Again, I do agree that if Little Mac's current kit was buffed it'd risk winding up in a very toxic position, especially with how railroaded the design is. And the railroading is what bothers me the most because it enforces the binary gameplay.

Can he be fun to play as thought? Personally I'd say yeah. His current design - flawed as it is - is a noble experiment, and even if it breaks down in practice it can still be a blast to mess around with because of those extreme strengths he posseses.



That said, I don't think Dante would be that unlike Bayo - Bayonetta has no trouble dealing damage in Ultimate, even with her damage output nerfed overall. One look at her bread and butter combos shows that:


Bayo - at least in Ultimate - struggles with killing (outside of Smash Attacks, B-Air, gimps and maaaaaaaybe down air once in a blue edgeguard situation) because attacks like F-Air have seemingly no horizontal knockback at all in Ultimate.

One can imagine Dante in a similar fashion: Typically Dante's combos don't knock enemies back that far, and the attacks that do are typically charge moves (IIRC, it's been a while since I last played 4SE). So designing him around high damage output / little knockback could be a fair trade off really.
Hell, Dante could even get away with laggier moves compared to Bayo due to Rebellion's sheer size, especially if DT buffs his frame data like his games and MvC. This pizza eating asshole has so many ways to interpret in Smash, that's what the most fun part of speculation as of late, seeing people talk about how a character could work instead of "They have this move and that attack"
 

Cosmic77

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I don't think many people would be on board with a character who's purposely made to be terrible.

If Sakurai is gonna make another character like Little Mac who's burdened with several cons, then at least try balancing them out with Super Armor other notable pros. Why would anyone unironically want a character who's extremely bad all around? There's no point.
 
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Peripuff

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Professor Pumpkaboo

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Cutie Gwen

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I don't think many people would be on board with a character who's purposely made to be terrible.

If Sakurai is gonna make another character like Little Mac who's burdened with several cons, then at least try balancing them out with Super Armor other notable pros. Why would anyone unironically want a character who's extremely bad all around? There's no point.
On the contrary, people absolutely ****ing adore Dan Hibiki because he's pretty crap at everything
 

Otoad64

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I don't think many people would be on board with a character who's purposely made to be terrible.

If Sakurai is gonna make another character like Little Mac who's burdened with several cons, then at least try balancing them out with Super Armor other notable pros. Why would anyone unironically want a character who's extremely bad all around? There's no point.
I dunno I like joke characters that are intentionally terrible.

but hey I'm a filthy casual who cares about character's victory themes more then their viabilty so what do I know?
 

Lamperouge

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I'd personally choose Pokemon and Crash/Coco.
I'll choose Rhythm Heaven for my boy Ramen Tengoku Ramen Tengoku and Arle because she's a character I support.
 

SirCamp

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I'd personally choose Pokemon and Crash/Coco.
Wow not a single person has picked Felix and Ryu so far. Sad :(

Well I am changing that. Because Golden Sun content is Golden Sun content and that’s what I want! Also Ryu is cool too I guess.
 

3BitSaurus

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Yeah, the fighters up her melee game a little. She's the main character of the series, so she's the most balanced and easy-to-learn fighter in those. That being said, the fighters still translate the shooter mechanics, like Grazing, flight, and lots of projectiles. Even if she draws mainly from the fighters, she'd still have a large amount of projectiles.
Here's the competitive wikis for Hisoutensoku and AoCF, for her movelists
Reimu Hakurei - Touhou Hisoutensoku (koumakan.jp)
Reimu Hakurei - Touhou Hyouibana (koumakan.jp)
Makes sense. That said, I do think her projectiles would for the most part be like Fox lasers, no? As in, one individual projectile would deal little damage and no hitstun or knockback.

...Also, can I say that I'm listening to the 15.5 OST right now and can now safely say I'd want Reimu if only to get those signature synth horns in Smash? Like, the fact that I've never seen that brass band meme with Touhou is a bit shocking to me.
 
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Guynamednelson

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Wait, was Dan always popular? I thought SFV making him interesting only made him popular recently...
There's a reason MvC2 let you make a team consisting solely of joke characters. And even if he wasn't popular he should still be an essential part of Capcom vs. SNK rosters because he's a parody of Ryo.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I don't think many people would be on board with a character who's purposely made to be terrible.

If Sakurai is gonna make another character like Little Mac who's burdened with several cons, then at least try balancing them out with Super Armor other notable pros. Why would anyone unironically want a character who's extremely bad all around? There's no point.
The only two joke characters we've had are Jigglypuff and Pichu, and both were last minute additions but also were very popular Pokemon and not all that risky.

So it's a matter of context.

Incidentally both have been good throughout the series too. Pichu had to be nerfed in Ultimate, which is saying something. Jigglypuff was a lot better than he expected(though it is bad in Brawl, at least, among other games. I can't remember every game Jigglypuff was actually bad in besides that).
 

SharkLord

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Makes sense. That said, I do think her projectiles would for the most part be like Fox lasers, no? As in, one individual projectile would deal little damage and no hitstun or knockback.

...Also, can I say that I'm listening to the 15.5 OST right now and can now safely say I'd want Reimu if only to get those signature synth horns in Smash? Like, the fact that I've never seen that brass band meme with Touhou is a bit shocking to me.
Yeah, with the sheer frequency of the projectiles, they would have to have no knockback. Touhou bosses are mainly just dodging the attacks; You can gradually chip away at the bosses' health, which is the encouraged version, but if you can get a good shot in you can just wait until the timer runs out. Of course, the latter option wouldn't be very fun in Smash, so I think the best uption would be high damage output, low knockback.
 

Cosmic77

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I dunno I like joke characters that are intentionally terrible.

but hey I'm a filthy casual who cares about character's victory themes more then their viabilty so what do I know?
I'm just saying from experience with the Smash fanbase that it'll be extremely difficult to add a joke character at this point without upsetting a ton of people. People will either complain that the character stole a spot from a serious choice, or they'll get upset that Sakurai purposely made a cool character be bad.

An Echo or clone might not be as poorly received, but I'm doubtful of any unique joke character being welcomed with open arms. Character slots are way too precious to people now.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Wait, was Dan always popular? I thought SFV making him interesting only made him popular recently...
People adore him, V just gave him interesting **** beyond parodying SNK. Hell, fun fact, his Legendary Taunt in V has a window where if you hit him with your Critical Art, he will ALWAYS die as damage gets multiplied
Makes sense. That said, I do think her projectiles would for the most part be like Fox lasers, no? As in, one individual projectile would deal little damage and no hitstun or knockback.

...Also, can I say that I'm listening to the 15.5 OST right now and can now safely say I'd want Reimu if only to get those signature synth horns in Smash? Like, the fact that I've never seen that brass band meme with Touhou is a bit shocking to me.
That creates a very interesting fighter dynamic, we have characters who can rack up damage very quickly but struggle to actually kill but a character who does this by filling the screen with projectiles that don't flinch sounds like it'd make fun matchups
 

Otoad64

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I'm just saying from experience with the Smash fanbase that it'll be extremely difficult to add a joke character at this point without upsetting a ton of people. People will either complain that the character stole a spot from a serious choice, or they'll get upset that Sakurai purposely made a cool character be bad.

An Echo or clone might not be as poorly received, but I'm doubtful of any unique joke character being welcomed with open arms. Character slots are way too precious to people now.
someone is gonna complain literally no matter what.
 

Pillow

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I'm just saying from experience with the Smash fanbase that it'll be extremely difficult to add a joke character at this point without upsetting a ton of people. People will either complain that the character stole a spot from a serious choice, or they'll get upset that Sakurai purposely made a cool character be bad.

An Echo or clone might not be as poorly received, but I'm doubtful of any unique joke character being welcomed with open arms. Character slots are way too precious to people now.
Yeah Dan type characters usually fit better in a base roster. Dan works for SFV because he’s already solidified his status as a beloved character a long time ago, and SFV is several dlc seasons in at this point.
 

Louie G.

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Little Mac talk huh?

Well I mentioned it the other day, but Mac was my most wanted through Smash 4 and I was so happy to finally get him in Smash. I'm still happy that he's in Smash, but what we got is one of the most fundamentally broken and misunderstood characters on the roster and a series that has been seemingly forgotten entirely. There are many issues I have with Little Mac's design, and many that I'm sure other people have explained much better than I have, but yeah Mac's polarizing gimmick made me very adverse to seeing gimmicky characters in Smash at all. Ultimate has softened my feelings toward them since most of the newcomers have been very well executed, but it still leaves some from Smash 4 feeling very... wrong.

One gripe toward Mac that I don't hear a lot of people bring up is how little sense his super armored Smash attacks make. Like yeah, I get that it's for balance purposes and it makes sense within his current kit (which needs to be completely revamped), but that is absolutely not what Punch-Out is about. Little Mac is the same character who loses stars and/or half his meter whenever he gets bopped in the nose, and yet here getting slapped around improves your meter and you can just truck right through.

Mac is certainly an underdog, they got that part right, but he doesn't feel like a very good execution of Punch-Out in Smash Bros. They leaned way too hard into irrelevant things like how Mac will do in the air (he didn't have to be GOOD in the air, just moves that work) rather than focusing on what makes Punch-Out so special in the first place. That intuitive strategy, patience and pattern recognition of those games is represented through a character who... pretty much either baits attacks or gets camped out. Honestly I mostly just love playing Mac against heavies like K. Rool because it's the closest thing to feeling like I'm actually playing Punch-Out.

I still play Mac because I ****ing love this character and his series but I can't blame people for absolutely hating playing as him or playing against him.

TLDR blah blah blah look how they massacred my boy

His current design - flawed as it is - is a noble experiment, and even if it breaks down in practice it can still be a blast to mess around with because of those extreme strengths he posseses.
You're right, but on the other hand it kinda blows that this character who I'd wanted for so long and that means so much to me is pretty much "an experiment" whose role on the roster is pretty much "he's fun to screw around with sometimes". I wanted to main the **** out of him.

I'd personally choose Pokemon and Crash/Coco.
Pass 2 is literally my two most wanted characters so my choice is very obvious. If that happened I'd genuinely be set for life.
 
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TwiceEXE

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I'm going to be blunt and say: that that's what it came across as initially (at least for me) - especially without the context. No worries though, it's an honest misunderstanding between us two. Again, I do agree that if Little Mac's current kit was buffed it'd risk winding up in a very toxic position, especially with how railroaded the design is. And the railroading is what bothers me the most because it enforces the binary gameplay.

Can he be fun to play as thought? Personally I'd say yeah. His current design - flawed as it is - is a noble experiment, and even if it breaks down in practice it can still be a blast to mess around with because of those extreme strengths he posseses.
I apologize if I offended anyone if it came across like that. My complaint is entirely lodged at the game devs, not the character or anyone who is a fan of the character. It's like Bayo in Smash 4; I don't have anything against the character, it's just that the design the devs implemented made the game worse.
 

JOJONumber691

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What mechanic are you referring to? As someone who's played almost every game in the series, there's nothing I can think of that gives bonus damage on combos. Not that it really matters because Smash never 100% translates a character meaning this mystery mythical mechanic would either A: be removed or B: be balanced by all the aspects even a single move can have.
Devil Trigger
 

chocolatejr9

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I'd personally choose Pokemon and Crash/Coco.
The one with Euden. Don't know anything about Touhou, but hey, that's what this thread is for, right?
 

Cutie Gwen

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Little Mac talk huh?

Well I mentioned it the other day, but Mac was my most wanted through Smash 4 and I was so happy to finally get him in Smash. I'm still happy that he's in Smash, but what we got is one of the most fundamentally broken and misunderstood characters on the roster and a series that has been seemingly forgotten entirely. There are many issues I have with Little Mac's design, and many that I'm sure other people have explained much better than I have, but yeah Mac's polarizing gimmick made me very adverse to seeing gimmicky characters in Smash at all. Ultimate has softened my feelings toward them since most of the newcomers have been very well executed, but it still leaves some from Smash 4 feeling very... wrong.

One gripe toward Mac that I don't hear a lot of people bring up is how little sense his super armored Smash attacks make. Like yeah, I get that it's for balance purposes and it makes sense within his current kit (which needs to be completely revamped), but that is absolutely not what Punch-Out is about. Little Mac is the same character who loses stars and/or half his meter whenever he gets bopped in the nose, and yet here getting slapped around improves your meter and you can just truck right through.

Mac is certainly an underdog, they got that part right, but he doesn't feel like a very good execution of Punch-Out in Smash Bros. They leaned way too hard into irrelevant things like how Mac will do in the air (he didn't have to be GOOD in the air, just moves that work) rather than focusing on what makes Punch-Out so special in the first place. That intuitive strategy, patience and pattern recognition of those games is represented through a character who... pretty much either baits attacks or gets camped out. Honestly I mostly just love playing Mac against heavies like K. Rool because it's the closest thing to feeling like I'm actually playing Punch-Out.

I still play Mac because I ****ing love this character and his series but I can't blame people for absolutely hating playing as him or playing against him.



Pass 2 is literally my two most wanted characters so my choice is very obvious. If that happened I'd genuinely be set for life.
See, I came to a realization about Mac being like that a while ago which kinda makes sense. Little Mac's designed as if he was a Punch Out enemy, not the player character. He's a truck but he has easily exposed weaknesses that you need to capitalize on if you don't want to get floored. It's really interesting but I'd personally rather have had this for a second character, not for Mac himself. Like Doc Louis
Devil Trigger
Your description really didn't fit DT at all, I'm gonna assume you're serious so I'll explain.

Devil Trigger is a resource Dante needs to build up in his games as a reward, and though Smash and other fighters like giving characters like this the resource when getting hit, it's always considerably less than what you'd get if you hit someone. This alone can really help balance it out, because if DT isn't easy to build up and lasts a rather short time, boom, problem solved, Dante players would need to think when it's best to use DT or else they've wasted it. Hell, this mechanic already kinda exists in Smash with Joker and Cloud. The idea that DT would instantly make Dante SSS tier is fearmongering as not only does it ignore the countless ways to balance Dante outside of DT, but Dante's FGC debut didn't even bust heads. He was good in MvC3, sure, but his biggest problem then is an easy solution for Smash, Dante doesn't hit that hard meaning he has to work harder to rack up damage than most, comboing a character for 40 seconds only means so much when a large chunk of the cast can do just as much in a few hits.
 
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