Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Cutie Gwen]

If Smash needed to stay 100% loyal to the source material, Robin would be able to spam Nosferatu all over the place

Actually Nosferatu doesn't have infinite uses when it's a tome and Robin can't actually use it in their iconic Tactician class

 

[GoodGrief741]

Yeah but unlike with another Metroid character over Ridley, Felix is literally Isaac but with a nifty backstory, Isaac barely even talks in 2 and by that point he joins the party, becoming silent once again iirc

Ok cool but people like Isaac so...

Considering the options on that tweet I think that's the mentality the poster had in mind, but honestly, if we get Felix and Sakurai says "Yeah nah an AT was fine but we still wanted a Golden Sun character", I'd grow incredibly judgemental of the fanbase if this caused backlash, especially if Golden Sun ends up getting revived as a result.

I explicitly said that I don't expect a backlash, there's a whole spectrum between "I guess I'll take this but it stings that I didn't get what I wanted" and Byleth. What's it to you anyways? If Golden Sun fans want to complain about something dear to them, let them.

 

[Schnee117]

It’s a legitimate concern.

It really isn't when you're only singling out Dante.
Are you gonna argue that Doom Slayer would be too OP because he's all about fast movement and constantly firing projectiles whilst having utterly devastating melee attacks? Are you gonna show concerns over Shadow potentially being OP because he's as fast as Sonic but also canonically has a time stop move and plenty of projectiles like Chaos Spear and a gun? Where's the concern over literally any other character?

You just don't want Dante and that's fine. But you don't gotta make up bull**** reasoning for it.

If Smash needed to stay 100% loyal to the source material, Samus could spam a million lasers at once and fly indefinitely with the Screw Attack. If Smash needed to stay 100% loyal to the source material, Robin would be able to spam Nosferatu all over the place. If Smash needed to stay 100% loyal to the source material, Min Min would be able to vibe check you from all the way across Final Destination rather than just halfway across. If Smash needed to stay 100% loyal to the source material, Bayonetta would have a %$#@ton of weaponry, not just her guns.

Liberties can be taken to allow characters to remain balanced and have them fit in with Smash's gameplay without being "unloyal" to their home series. Dante can just have great combo potential and poor kill power, maybe a Devil Trigger on the side that doesn't give too much of a boost compared to, say, Arsene. It's not that hard.

Yeah part of the issue with Arsene is that it completely augments Joker's moves.
Devil Trigger is just a damage buff

Actually Nosferatu doesn't have infinite uses when it's a tome and Robin can't actually use it in their iconic Tactician class

I feel like they meant "can't" but at the same time, Robin is also clearly running Armsthrift seeing as that Bronze Sword doesn't break, they just need to get their luck stat to over 50

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ok cool but people like Isaac so...

I explicitly said that I don't expect a backlash, there's a whole spectrum between "I guess I'll take this but it stings that I didn't get what I wanted" and Byleth. What's it to you anyways? If Golden Sun fans want to complain about something dear to them, let them.

I'm just unable to see this hypothetical scenario end with backlash so being told it'd be a bad thing just makes me hella confused because that still sounds like a great deal at the end of the day. Maybe I'm just rambling though

 

[SpecterFlower]

I'm just unable to see this hypothetical scenario end with backlash so being told it'd be a bad thing just makes me hella confused because that still sounds like a great deal at the end of the day. Maybe I'm just rambling though

what's your MW? from a new series.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Papagenos strikes again.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Papagenos strikes again.

At work, so tl;dw?

 

[SKX31]

Smash 4 newcomers were a weird bunch overall really haha, at least in hindsight. I feel like a lot of them didn't really have much... "oomph" to them in the end, partly probably because of the reason you stated. Or maybe it's just because the Wii U kinda came and went and suddenly it was Ultimate time already (at least that's what it felt to me). Sometimes I forget Rosalina is a character for example, even though she had one of the best reveal trailers. I hardly ever see one online.

Spitballing here, but still:

I assume it's partly because Rosa's a difficult character to get a hang off on even an intermediate level, while also having a not really flashy niché to stand out. Rosa's playstyle also leans heavily towards defensive positioning and "zoning" via Luma. And, she has a poor disadvantage state, which might make it less tempting for newcomers to pick her up. I'd compare her - kinda - to Olimar in that sense. ICies are similarily complex (if not the only character more complex than Rosa), but ICies have something flashy to help draw people in: grab combos. Granted, ICies players are also really rare, but still.

As such, there are not a lot of players who pick up Rosa beyond the occassional casual match. But the ones that do pick her up and learn her quickly discover that she's a potent character that can play a solid defensive game, nullify projectiles and can switch to a decent offensive game of her own with her aerials, scoops and Up / Forward Smash.

If Smash needed to stay 100% loyal to the source material, Samus could spam a million lasers at once and fly indefinitely with the Screw Attack. If Smash needed to stay 100% loyal to the source material, Robin would be able to spam Nosferatu all over the place. If Smash needed to stay 100% loyal to the source material, Min Min would be able to vibe check you from all the way across Final Destination rather than just halfway across. If Smash needed to stay 100% loyal to the source material, Bayonetta would have a %$#@ton of weaponry, not just her guns.

So you're saying that this is the canon Smash? The one where Mario buries people if he footstools them?

 

[Pillow]

May sound silly to say this, but the "boxer fantasy" isn't really the "Punch-Out fantasy". Punch-Out is more of a strategy puzzle game than a sports game, so simple raw power punching with a polarizing largely unrelated gimmick doesn't exactly give me the feeling of playing that character from that series in Smash.

I also can't think of many other characters who are close to his level of outright broken design - considering so much of Smash is about aerial play - nor many that miss the point of the home series to such a great extent. And yeah sorry if I sound a bit whiny or entitled about it, but Punch-Out means a lot to me and it doesn't feel like it meant quite as much to the Smash team.

But I should stress again that even with Mac in his current form I'm thankful he's in the game at all - still feel that all the criticism is valid, though.

Oh I definitely agree that they could've done a better job of making Mac a more satisfying character, both in terms of representing his home franchise and being fun to play. I just think a lot of characters need more work than Mac. At the end of the day, despite being widely considered the worst character in the game, the character is still pretty popular for being easy to use and having lots of fast moves that generally feel like they carry a lot of weight.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

what's your MW? from a new series.

Miriam from Bloodstained. If we got Zangetsu, Alfred, Gebel, Gremory, Dominique, Robert, Hachi, Bloodless or O.D instead of her I'd still be incredibly excited because my favourite game has content in Smash

 

[chocolatejr9]

Papagenos strikes again.

I'm guessing he talks about "Second Chance Theory"?

 

[7NATOR]

I'm someone that Mained Little Mac in Smash 4, and also plays him quite often in Smash Ultimate

Personally I think Little Mac actually represents both himself and the bosses of Punch out.

-His Frame Data, High Speed, and Counter Special represent his actual Self. These aspects allow Little Mac to counter the Opponents options just like he does in Punch out
-His High Damage and Kill Power, Super Armored Smash attacks, and his Neutral Special represent aspect of the bosses. The Bosses in Punch typically punch really hard and their approach can be hard to stop, but they are also left punishable if you manage to evade

Now regarding Little Mac's Design, I think the main problem is not just that his Air Game is bad, but it's bad to the point where a Dimension of the game is essentially locked out from you

I don't play Little Mac as much as Smash 4 because Ultimate is much more Aerial based than Smash 4, and that aspect heavily cripples Little Mac (also they got rid of his Down Tilt combos, but the former is a much bigger issue). Personally If I were to change Little Mac, here's how I would do it

-Make all of his Aerials have Increased range, and make ALL of his aerials launch his opponents towards the ground. Since they want Little Mac to stay on the ground primarily, they should give him more tools so that his Opponent stays on the ground as well. This would also have the benefit of making Little Mac a better edgeguarder also

-If they really need too, they might have to take out the Super Armor on his Smash attacks. I Love his Super Armor Smash attacks. they are really fun both casually and competitively, but I'd say they are one of the biggest reasons people have trouble fighting Little Mac, because it's hard to punish someone using these moves since you can't punish startup too often (it's possible though) and they also have high Shield pushback and stun

That or they could make his Smash Attacks have no Shield Push back at all. Perhaps give the Smash attack and Special Blocked animation that makes Little Mac heavily Punishable. You still get to keep the Power and Super Armor and Speed, but there's some really good counterplay towards them now. I'd also make his Downwards version of Forward Smash more important since I wouldn't change that even with this change

-Give him more consistent Combo tools. Stuff like Down tilt true comboing again, or Giving him back his Jab combos (but perhaps make them tighter to reward execution and to not make a Frame 1 jab combo starter so dominant


So that's what I personally would do. that would at least fix Little Mac I would say, though there's also the issue of his Franchise only having 5 music tracks. I'm unsure if there are rights issues with the music, but I don't know why he has so little. I don't think a 2nd character is necessary though, or even realistic as of right now though

 

[Pillow]

Miriam from Bloodstained. If we got Zangetsu, Alfred, Gebel, Gremory, Dominique, Robert, Hachi, Bloodless or O.D instead of her I'd still be incredibly excited because my favourite game has content in Smash

If by some miracle Bloodstained got a character in a Smash there is absolutely no way it wouldn't be Miriam.

It really isn't when you're only singling out Dante.
Are you gonna argue that Doom Slayer would be too OP because he's all about fast movement and constantly firing projectiles whilst having utterly devastating melee attacks? Are you gonna show concerns over Shadow potentially being OP because he's as fast as Sonic but also canonically has a time stop move and plenty of projectiles like Chaos Spear and a gun? Where's the concern over literally any other character?

Zero on the other hand has to be broken if he comes to Smash. It's just a fighting game rule even Sakurai can't reject it.

 

[3BitSaurus]

So you're saying that this is the canon Smash? The one where Mario buries people if he footstools them?

You joke, but as a longtime MOBA fan, I'd love a game mode where everything is busted in random ways to terrifying extremes.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If by some miracle Bloodstained got a character in a Smash there is absolutely no way it wouldn't be Miriam

Yeah but I'm pretty sure Specter's asking to try and find a way to get me to understand this hypothetical scenario about Felix

 

[SNEKeater]

And those are traditional fighting games. Smash Works in a way that prevents Dante from feeling like Dante without risk of being broken, considering the lack of damage approach doesn’t work as soon as you get rid of a normal health bar. Because Devil May Cry is all over the place, with a Sword, on top of Devil Trigger. Again, I can’t see Dante bring balanced. If I’m wrong and by some miracle Bayonetta with a Sword and Arsene is Balanced, then I will be happy for you and you. I simply can’t see Dante being that Balanced. It’s a legitimate concern.

Dude no offense but you're kinda moving goalposts. Cutie Gwen has already explained why Dante wouldn't be necessarily broken in Ultimate. And even if he ended being a broken fighter, that would be up to the balance team and Sakurai, not because he's Dante.

It doesn't look like you have played DMC because for example, the combo meter doesn't increase his damage when the combo rank is high. The only benefit it gives you is more red orbs. You'll obtain more orbs if you kill an enemy during a S combo, but that is obviously a mechanic they wouldn't implement in Smash.

Dante could work in multiple ways, depending in how Sakurai approaches him. Stance character with multiple styles of combat, Devil Trigger shenanigans, Royal Guard mechanic... he could even take a lot of creative liberties and give him what you said before, a combo meter that will make Dante more dangerous if he hasn't been hit for a while and/or is pressuring the opponent a lot, with all of this changing according to the rank of his combo meter. But I wouldn't expect something like this.

In any case, Smash characters are not 1:1 depictions of their original games. By the way I still find this association of "Bayonetta and Dante are from the same genre, Bayo was broken in Sm4sh, so that clearly means Dante would be broken if he was in Ultimate" kinda dumb. I don't get it lol

 

[GoodGrief741]

Miriam from Bloodstained. If we got Zangetsu, Alfred, Gebel, Gremory, Dominique, Robert, Hachi, Bloodless or O.D instead of her I'd still be incredibly excited because my favourite game has content in Smash

And if we got Zangetsu and another fan of Bloodstained was confused/disappointed because we didn't get Miriam, would that be so hard to empathize with?

 

[Ivander]

Actually Nosferatu doesn't have infinite uses when it's a tome and Robin can't actually use it in their iconic Tactician class

I mean, it can when you have Armsthrift and 50 Luck.

That said, yeah, no Shadowgift for Nosferatu, although Micaiah and Katarina, 2 characters who were DLC for Awakening and used Female Robin's model, did have Shadowgift and Katarina was a Tactician. But Robin themselves can't get access to Shadowgift, although if they gave Female Robin an amiibo and she was made playable in Fates, she could've gotten Shadowgift due to any female character being able to be a Witch, but she wasn't, so she never had that opportunity.

 

[Deleted member]

At work, so tl;dw?

I second this; also at work. Somebody give the abridged version please.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

And if we got Zangetsu and another fan of Bloodstained was confused/disappointed because we didn't get Miriam, would that be so hard to empathize with?

There's a difference between confusion and it stinging like what was said, but Zangetsu's still super cool and we'd still get a gorgeous stage with killer music. Might just be me loving video games.

It doesn't look like you have played DMC because for example, the combo meter doesn't increase his damage when the combo rank is high. The only benefit it gives you is more red orbs. You'll obtain more orbs if you kill an enemy during a S combo, but that is obviously a mechanic they wouldn't implement in Smash.

**** it, Rusty the Nintendo Scam Dog for the next character, he only has a jab but every time you swipe a debit card to your Switch and pay 50 cents, you unlock more moves

 

[SNEKeater]

Miriam from Bloodstained. If we got Zangetsu, Alfred, Gebel, Gremory, Dominique, Robert, Hachi, Bloodless or O.D instead of her I'd still be incredibly excited because my favourite game has content in Smash

What if we get a Miriam Mii Costume? I don't think she has serious chances to make it as playable in Ultimate, but maybe in next games, if Bloodstained becomes more popular and gets new entries.

Meanwhile, a Miiriam Costume for Smash Ultimate is something I could see happen.

Anyway I have been playing Bloodstained after finishing the game. I 100% the map, defeated the secret boss, played and completed Randomizer Mode, Rush Mode and Classic Mode, and now I'm playing Bloodless mode. Awesome game, to be honest I think it's one of my fave games in the genre. The only big criticism I have with the game is that it felt a bit rushed at the end, but that's it.
I started Zangetsu mode and while it was fun, it wasn't as engaging for me as the other modes, to be honest. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed the randomizer by the way.

The best thing is that there's still more content coming in the future.

 

[TheCJBrine]

If we got a Golden Sun character and it’s not Isaac, I’d take that as near-confirmation of “already had an AT” being a rule, personally; Felix may be the main character of the second game, but there’s no reason to not have Isaac when he’s in all 3 games, important in at least two of them (being the father of Matthew in the third game; still haven’t gotten to actually playing the games beyond the start, so still not fully aware of stuff, but I think Isaac would be cool), and he can do what the other main characters do.

I guess it’d still make some sense for them to have another character, but it’s not like P/M and Rex seeming to be just as important as each other in one game along with ARMS having no main character (as there’s no story mode though Spring Man is clearly pushed more and is the hero, but the creator wanted Min Min and there’s still no main character ingame I guess beyond Spring Man having his own metal clone), so not choosing Isaac would just be weird. If the “no AT” thing is a rule, though, it’d still be weird imo because it feels like “why does it matter? You have Mario beating up 7 other Marios, you can disable ATs sometimes for seemingly no reason on certain stages and likely could tie their availability to chosen characters, you gave Bomberman a DLC mii costume that looks identical to his AT...very dumb, man.”

Due to what I described, I really just believe ATs themselves don’t disconfirm and it’s up to other factors, but I would start to believe it more if they really went with someone over Isaac. I would just hope Sakurai and Nintendo actually flat-out say it at that moment; they have no problem disconfirming other characters due to their circumstances, why not disconfirm ATs etc. getting potential upgrades through DLC if y’all really care about that? Not to mention FP2 definitely not being planned out when ATs were made, so y’all could add them in as fighters now with a second chance - unless there’s reasons for not choosing them that have nothing to do with the fact they have an AT, which is far more reasonable, more believable, and better to argue in my personal opinion, but despite all this, it’d still feel like they’d have that dumb “no ATs” rule if they decided to look over Isaac instead of just replacing his AT, or giving it an alt. color/disabling it when he’s chosen.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What if we get a Miriam Mii Costume? I don't think she has serious chances to make it as playable in Ultimate, but maybe in next games, if Bloodstained becomes more popular and gets new entries.

Meanwhile, a Miiriam Costume for Smash Ultimate is something I could see happen.

Anyway I have been playing Bloodstained after finishing the game. I 100% the map, defeated the secret boss, played and completed Randomizer Mode, Rush Mode and Classic Mode, and now I'm playing Bloodless mode. Awesome game, to be honest I think it's one of my fave games in the genre. The only big criticism I have with the game is that it felt a bit rushed at the end, but that's it.
I started Zangetsu mode and while it was fun, it wasn't as engaging for me as the other modes, to be honest. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed the randomizer by the way.

The best thing is that there's still more content coming in the future.

"HOLY **** THEY ACKNOWLEDGED MIRIAM? OH MY GOOOOOOOOD"

Yeah Zangetsu mode's literally the typical Iga bonus mode, Bloodless mode changing the starting point and methods of progression was incredibly refreshing as Iga never pulled that before

 

[GoodGrief741]

There's a difference between confusion and it stinging like what was said, but Zangetsu's still super cool and we'd still get a gorgeous stage with killer music. Might just be me loving video games.

I didn't ask you what you'd think, I asked you if it would be that hard to understand someone else being disappointed with Zangetsu because they really wanted Miriam.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I didn't ask you what you'd think, I asked you if it would be that hard to understand someone else being disappointed with Zangetsu because they really wanted Miriam.

I'd find it hard to understand if they said said it felt like a slap in the face and that it'd sting, wasn't that exactly what was said for the Felix thing?

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Miriam would be such a great addition. I know the chances are low but I definitely 100% support her, maybe with luck on the announcement of post-Pass individual DLC or Pass 3.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I'd find it hard to understand if they said said it felt like a slap in the face and that it'd sting, wasn't that exactly what was said for the Felix thing?

So you really can't empathize with someone who takes to one specific character instead of settling with any random pick from the game? Because if so I think that's really weird, even if you don't share that sentiment it's a super easy thing to understand.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So you really can't empathize with someone who takes to one specific character instead of settling with any random pick from the game? Because if so I think that's really weird, even if you don't share that sentiment it's a super easy thing to understand.

Take it from me - a big Elma supporter. While I’ve grown to accept Pyra/Mythra’s inclusion, I still feel sad Elma probably won’t get her chance this time around...

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Miriam would be cool in Smash but more than anything I want Iga to make a new Castlevania and have here be a special crossover character. I can deal with her not being in smash but holy **** if Iga ever makes another Castlevania she better be in there.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

They should just do a Castlevania and Bloodstained crossover game.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So you really can't empathize with someone who takes to one specific character instead of settling with any random pick from the game? Because if so I think that's really weird, even if you don't share that sentiment it's a super easy thing to understand.

Again, when it's said to be a slap in the face, I struggle to empathize. There's a difference between that and wishing it was someone else

Take it from me - a big Elma supporter. While I’ve grown to accept Pyra/Mythra’s inclusion, I still feel sad Elma probably won’t get her chance this time around...

This situation is if HB was playable instead of Elma, not a character from a different game entirely

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Miriam for Brawlhalla!

Closest we could get her into Smash!

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Take it from me - a big Elma supporter. While I’ve grown to accept Pyra/Mythra’s inclusion, I still feel sad Elma probably won’t get her chance this time around...

Circa 2022. Fighter’s Pass 3 is in full swing, Xenoblade Chronicles X Definitive Edition releases soon, all new Smash Trailer cuts in, Elma, queue Smash fanbases “another ****ing Xenoblade character” while I enjoy it and laugh in Tom Cruise.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Again, when it's said to be a slap in the face, I struggle to empathize. There's a difference between that and wishing it was someone else

This situation is if HB was playable instead of Elma, not a character from a different game entirely

Hey don’t be hatin on HB he’s pretty cool once you get to know him

Bozé though... THEN is when I’d be rightfully angry. **** Bozé Lowes all my homies hate Bozé Lowes

Circa 2022. Fighter’s Pass 3 is in full swing, Xenoblade Chronicles X Definitive Edition releases soon, all new Smash Trailer cuts in, Elma, queue Smash fanbases “another ****ing Xenoblade” character while enjoy it and laugh in Tom Cruise.

That’s the dream... sigh

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Hey don’t be hatin on HB he’s pretty cool once you get to know him

Bozé though... THEN is when I’d be rightfully angry. **** Bozé Lowes all my homies hate Bozé Lowes

I'm not hating on HB lmao. The scenario is not getting your fav but someone else from the same game you really like. Bozé's just your typical right wing anime fan, nobody likes him

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Ok maybe this isn’t exactly the same thing but if Kasumi got in over Ryu Hayabusa I’mma say that’s a slap in the face for me.

 

[Schnee117]

It's only a slap in the face if the first Resident Evil character is Steve Burnside.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

It's only a slap in the face if the first Resident Evil character is Steve Burnside.

Or ****ing Billy Coen.

 

[Technomage]

Ok maybe this isn’t exactly the same thing but if Kasumi got in over Ryu Hayabusa I’mma say that’s a slap in the face for me.

I'd say hot (assuming they use her DOA 5 or 6 version, since anything before that would be too young).

 

[SNEKeater]

Miriam would be cool in Smash but more than anything I want Iga to make a new Castlevania and have here be a special crossover character. I can deal with her not being in smash but holy **** if Iga ever makes another Castlevania she better be in there.

If he ever comes back or is hired by Konami to make a new Castlevania, I want him to make Castlevania 1999. It's kinda crazy that such an important key event as Dracula being finally defeated for real doesn't have a game about those events. Playing as Julius Belmont in his prime sounds really cool as well.

And I'd prefer Alucard but yeah Miriam would be great. I love her design. There's a good amount of fantastic fan art about her: