cashregister9
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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II
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Otoad64
Smash Lord
is it inevitable in the timeline where Sakurai is replaced by someone who is heavily biased towards platformers?Hey if this RPG bias continues into the future, it's only a matter of time until we get JRPGs like SMT or Trails.
No matter how things go, SMT is inevitable.
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Wigglerman
Smash Ace
GothicSlenderman
Smash Journeyman
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I'm not trying to attack them by all means. I just think they take up a little too much space. True there are a lot of different types of RPGs like how Pokemon is a monster tamer and how Xenoblade is an action RPG as Final Fantasy is turn based and they deserve their own representation as well. Heck I get why Pokemon has so much as it is the number 1 media franchise and always has a new fighter. I'm good with what we got . I do hope we get some new genres we the last 2 fighters though.Oh so the ratio is basically the same as it has been? I don't see much reason for complaint then, but that's just me.
I totally understand that. There are tons of unexplored genres just waiting to be untapped and implemented into the series, but why attack RPGs when it is such a broad genre that holds the most types of subgenres all explored differently in these games? The reason there are so many RPG characters isn't because of some hidden RPG cult agenda, it's because there are so many different kinds of such a big genre that are being represented. There are elements of RPGs in a majority of any video game whether you'd like to see it or not.
You ask for a balance, but that balance has already been achieved. There is no heavily favored side in the Smash Bros. roster. You are simply pushing all of these games that may be mainly RPGs, but are different in so many ways from one another that they cannot be grouped in anything but a focus genre. The only thing that's truly missing is, as you said, brand-new additions.
This is true. It feels off calling it a celebration of gaming. Though I feel as it that mainly comes from Smash's origins as it was originally just a Nintendo crossover and the only way they could really become a "celebration of gaming" is if they reboot the whole thing or make a new series with the gameplay style of Smash. And even then I feel as if a true celebration of gaming wouldn't be possible as there are dozens if not hundreds of characters who are considered icons or important to gaming and we'd have to strip representation to 1 per franchise/4-6 per company just to make sure the most franchises are involved. Also there's no denying that Microsoft and Sony hold some icons and (for a while at least) Microsoft seems good with being involved but Sony might be a lot harder.
A "celebration of gaming" would be nearly impossible to make and be accepted by the majority of the community. I wouldn't mind seeing them try though.
ALongWistfulSquiggle
Smash Lord
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If people were as inclusive about what counts as a platformer as they were about what counts as an RPG, we'd already be there. There are about 25 characters you could claim as platformer reps if you count metroidvanias and other offshoots.
Idon
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Inevitable, I say again.is it inevitable in the timeline where Sakurai is replaced by someone who is heavily biased towards platformers?
SpecterFlower
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Smash was never really celebrated like that, however with ultimate Nintendo seemed to lean into that for marketing purposes, i wonder if we'll see this "celebration of gaming" go further in the next game, but for now i think it would be easier to call it a celebration of Japanese gaming.
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I'm so ****ing angry at this gif because the player did not have the confidence of landing on a platform he was obviously going to land on.Inevitable, I say again.
Cosmic77
Smash Hero
Smash is mostly a crossover of Nintendo worlds with a handful of third-parties added to the mix.
That doesn't sound as cool as "a celebration of gaming", but considering how the roster consists of over 70 Nintendo characters, I don't know why that wouldn't be a more accurate description. Nintendo has a lot of iconic franchises, but I wouldn't be surprised if people were first introduced to about half of them through Smash games.
That doesn't sound as cool as "a celebration of gaming", but considering how the roster consists of over 70 Nintendo characters, I don't know why that wouldn't be a more accurate description. Nintendo has a lot of iconic franchises, but I wouldn't be surprised if people were first introduced to about half of them through Smash games.
CapitaineCrash
Smash Champion
I think the problem with the "celebration of gaming" aspect is how some huge franchise would be super hard, if not impossible to represent properly. For example, huge western shooter like Call of duty of Batlefield. How do we represent that? What characters represent those franchise? Need for speed is the biggest racing franchise (maybe after Mario kart), how would you even want to represent it? Guitar hero, Rock band, Just dance, Dance dance revolution are probably the most popular rhythm games franchise ever, yet people are more talking about Rhythm heaven and Taiko no tatsujin than those. As much as the "ultimate celebration of gaming" would be awesome, I think it could just never work for a lot of big franchise.
LiveStudioAudience
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As someone who's a far bigger platformer fan than JRPG person, I actually can defend the heavy inclusion of the latter given two factors; consistency in popularity and general acceptance in many regions.
Basically since the one two punch of FFVII and Pokemon in 1997 the genre has become huge in the West and is something finally somewhat comparable to how liked it it is in Japan. Its a contrast to stuff like FPS titles which have struggled to get footing the latter region. Furthermore because there's been a steady stream of releases (unlike platformers which dipped for a while before indies took up the mantle) for such a long time that there's plenty of stuff to draw from. Heck ask any hardcore fan on here and they'll mention plenty of them that Smash has barely touched.
Outside really niche categories, the JRPG genre has a surplus of IP's and are relatively safe to include for an all region friendly emphasis that Smash has.
Basically since the one two punch of FFVII and Pokemon in 1997 the genre has become huge in the West and is something finally somewhat comparable to how liked it it is in Japan. Its a contrast to stuff like FPS titles which have struggled to get footing the latter region. Furthermore because there's been a steady stream of releases (unlike platformers which dipped for a while before indies took up the mantle) for such a long time that there's plenty of stuff to draw from. Heck ask any hardcore fan on here and they'll mention plenty of them that Smash has barely touched.
Outside really niche categories, the JRPG genre has a surplus of IP's and are relatively safe to include for an all region friendly emphasis that Smash has.
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Guynamednelson
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To be fair, Rhythm Heaven lacks a problem that more mainstream rhythm games have: Virtually every RH song was composed for that game, while GH, RB, and JD are all dependent on licensing songs. They're not going to get the license from Activision for Guitar Hero and then contact record labels to license hit songs that were featured in the games.
Another notable reason I feel like Lara is super slept on:
Doubling your franchise sales in 5 years is nothing to sneeze at. People saying that modern Tomb Raider is irrelevant haven’t really been paying attention imo.
In 2015 it was reported that the Tomb Raider had sold 40m units worldwide. In 2020, Square Enix announced that Tomb Raider had surpassed 81m units worldwide, meaning in the last 5-6 years the franchise has sold 41m copies. Lara Croft is still going strong to this day. #TombRaider pic.twitter.com/X4u6UkVfHS
— SmashLara • Tomb Raider News (@SmashLara) March 12, 2021
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MBRedboy31
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I don’t know much about large western FPS franchises, but, correct me if I’m wrong, isn’t the online multiplayer the most significant part of most modern shooters? As such, wouldn’t a generalized online multiplayer player character that uses the game’s most notable weapons work best?
7NATOR
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RPG's also usually have better character development than other types of Genre's, since RPG's are typically longer and more focused on the story, and the whole thing about Smash is Characters from different franchises duking it out
Though on that note, alot of the RPG Characters added have either been Pokemon (which typically aren't most complex characters) or Avatar characters, which while they can have personality, aren't the characters known for having them.
Though on that note, alot of the RPG Characters added have either been Pokemon (which typically aren't most complex characters) or Avatar characters, which while they can have personality, aren't the characters known for having them.
Technomage
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Speaking of Tomb Raider, how likely would Lara Croft be to have her original shortshorts and tank top as one of her alternate costumes?
GothicSlenderman
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Considering the new games have sold so well I would suspect that they would want the newer Lara as the main Lara but considering that they do acknowledge her original design I would suspect that it would be a BoTW Link/Classic Link, original/AC Cloud or Bayonetta 1/2 situation where both get an equal amount of colors.
_____
Also guys, I'm just gonna say it right now. I know it's really late to the topic and all but I am still so happy that the Enderman is a skin for Steve as that is the closest thing I will ever get to seeing Slender Man being playable in Smash and I'm content with that.
It’s probably her most iconic look so I’d be genuinely shocked if it wasn’t an alt or even her main costume.
SharkLord
Smash Hero
Another thing of interest is that they thought a lot of Lloyd's support came from overseas, which would paint him as a Western fan-favorite. They also say Yuri's basically the opposite of Lloyd, which makes the speculation dynamic between the two pretty interesting.
For context, the actual winner of the poll was Luke. Screw Lloyd and Yuri, Luke's the new frontrunner now
Why not? Samus got it.
It's for good boys and girls, it's not her fault she's just blessed from the chest.
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ahemtoday
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Hey, those graphics look really clean! What game is this?Inevitable, I say again.
People kind of look past series without intuitive representation. It's more or less understood why we aren't getting characters from Nintendogs or Tetris.
But you don't need to represent every big series to still have good coverage across the different parts of gaming. You don't need to include a character from Call of Duty or Battlefield, but you can include one from Halo, Doom or Overwatch and you've still represented a big part of gaming.
A celebration of gaming doesn't entail representing every single big series with a character regardless of how well it fits as much as it does representing as many different aspects of gaming as you can. Representing every big series wouldn't be feasible anyway, even if they did all have workable choices. There are just too many notable series.
If you wanted to have a celebration of music as a whole, you wouldn't play every song, you'd just play well-known songs from across many genres and origins.
Tbf most of the big Japanese platforming series are already on the roster. Especially since Nintendo owns like half of them.is it inevitable in the timeline where Sakurai is replaced by someone who is heavily biased towards platformers?
SpectreJordan
Smash Lord
Call of Duty has some notable characters with Captain Price, Ghost, Frank Woods or Tank Dempsey from the Zombies mode. Battlefield... doesn’t really have anything because their campaigns are trash lmao
A COD character could be fun, but I feel they’d be incredibly out of place. I think the best way to represent those two would be with stages or a Mii costume for the COD characters. The celebration doesn’t have to specifically be with Fighters; I think stages, Mii costumes & spirits also play a part in the celebration.
SNEKeater
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To be fair, Lloyd having kind of a resurgence in popularity over there seems to be a recent thing. Not that I think the wouldn't be chosen if he wasn't super popular in Japan, just that historically speaking Lloyd hasn't been as consistent as other characters if we talk about japanese popularity. Which might be a thing Nintendo would pay attention if they decided to add a Tales character, but that we obviously don't know.So the Tales of Festival results came in regarding the most popular characters. While Yuri's still a spot above him, Lloyd actually managed to reach third place. Obviously, it's too recent to be taken into account for Smash or anything, but it's interesting Lloyd ranked so high. Around here, the general assumption seems to be that Lloyd's only popular in the Smash fanbase, but this doesn't seem to be the case here.
Another thing of interest is that they thought a lot of Lloyd's support came from overseas, which would paint him as a Western fan-favorite. They also say Yuri's basically the opposite of Lloyd, which makes the speculation dynamic between the two pretty interesting.
For context, the actual winner of the poll was Luke. Screw Lloyd and Yuri, Luke's the new frontrunner now
That's why I always say it's 50-50 for me. If during the selection for a Tales fighter they want to cater the western/Smash fans, the logical choice would be Lloyd, but if they decide to appeal the japanese market, then Yuri feels like the best option.
And I could see Nintendo going with any of the two options for different reasons.
In other circumstances maybe I'd be leaning more on Lloyd but seeing that Nintendo has usually appealed the japanese fans, that's why I'm split between the two characters. Normally I'd consider Lloyd first because of his Smash popularity and his game being a popular one during the GC days, but Yuri's enormous popularity, specially in Japan, and the natural "bias" Nintendo has shown towards their home market, basically makes me think it could go either way and it would depend on how Nintendo would approach the selection of a Tales character.
Shroob
Sup?
A part of me wonders if Lloyd's sudden resurgence of popularity is strictly due to Ultimate.So the Tales of Festival results came in regarding the most popular characters. While Yuri's still a spot above him, Lloyd actually managed to reach third place. Obviously, it's too recent to be taken into account for Smash or anything, but it's interesting Lloyd ranked so high. Around here, the general assumption seems to be that Lloyd's only popular in the Smash fanbase, but this doesn't seem to be the case here.
Another thing of interest is that they thought a lot of Lloyd's support came from overseas, which would paint him as a Western fan-favorite. They also say Yuri's basically the opposite of Lloyd, which makes the speculation dynamic between the two pretty interesting.
For context, the actual winner of the poll was Luke. Screw Lloyd and Yuri, Luke's the new frontrunner now
Crazy theory? Maybe, but I've been seeing a lot of Japanese stuff in regards to Lloyd in Smash as of late.
ALongWistfulSquiggle
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Luke getting into Smash would be pretty funny. He's not unpopular or anything, but his fanbase seems a lot quieter than fans of the other two. He'd be neat, especially if he used fonon field mechanics from his game.So the Tales of Festival results came in regarding the most popular characters. While Yuri's still a spot above him, Lloyd actually managed to reach third place. Obviously, it's too recent to be taken into account for Smash or anything, but it's interesting Lloyd ranked so high. Around here, the general assumption seems to be that Lloyd's only popular in the Smash fanbase, but this doesn't seem to be the case here.
Another thing of interest is that they thought a lot of Lloyd's support came from overseas, which would paint him as a Western fan-favorite. They also say Yuri's basically the opposite of Lloyd, which makes the speculation dynamic between the two pretty interesting.
For context, the actual winner of the poll was Luke. Screw Lloyd and Yuri, Luke's the new frontrunner now
Fun fact: Luke's friend, Guy, plays basically identically to Lloyd, but only has one sword. Guy also placed 13th in the survey. Clearly an overcomplicated echo fighter in the making.
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It pretty much is the largest segment of the FPS playerbase - for example, 30 million played Warzone in early 2020 - and has become the focal point of Activision / EA's efforts with those two games. While there's a valid argument to be made that the overly strong focus on multiplayer combined with the yearly releases has hurt both franchises' legitimacy, the multiplayer remains a major league force in the video game industry period.
That said, I'd argue one could hypotheoretically rep a FPS shooter with its campaign's main character and incorporate some aspects of the multiplayer into that. Those usually recieve some spotlight (albeit not as much as the multiplayer). CoD also has the regular Zombie mode, and it's been brought up a couple times around these forums. The most recognizable campaign characters are Captain John Price (CoD: MW) and Sergeant Henry Blackburn (Battlefield 3). They're pretty much the focal points of the most famous and impactful games.
One of the problems surrounding those two though are their direct ties to real military organizations. Price is a member of the British SAS, Blackburn is a Marine. Now,
is a full-on Black Op and initially a Green Beret, but his main affilitration is with fictional Black Op group FOXHOUND or just saying effectively "**** it, I'm going solo for this mission!". Nintendo might be keen on avoiding any PR headaches with say Mario getting shot at by a very realistic Marine, so a generic multiplayer avatar might be much more attractive because it'd draw relatively less controversy. It wouldn't remove the headache of CoD having ties to the US Army entirely (one reason to doubt it happening), but if Nintendo wanted to I don't think it'd stop them entirely.Besides, the multiplayer has a ****ton of different loadouts and options (one reason it's remained insanely popular consistently), so there's a strong possibilty that a moveset could be implemented with or without any campaign stuff.
CoD and Battlefield do have options, but it's games like say Guitar Hero / Just Dance etc that have very little room for character selection. Partly because they've usually relied on real life star power to help sell their games. For example, Guitar Hero III's cover:
The two on the side are fictional... but anyone who's even remotely familiar with rock music from the late 80s onwards will know who's front and center. Slash. It doesn't automatically disqualify GH, but it heavily complicates things when real people take front and center of the franchise. Music tracks etc. could hypotheoretically work, but it's a far cry from Rhythm Heaven or Taiko who actually have fictional characters who are front and center.
Gran Turismo and Forza fall on similar premises: The appeal of those two games are to play around with real vehicles on real tracks (such as Monaco, Silverstone or Laguna Seca). And, there's an argument to be made that Gran Turismo - in its PS1 heyday - were as iconic as Cloud ****ing Strife, and more iconic than Crash. The first Gran Turismo game is the only PS1 game to outsell FF7, and did so barely. Forza for its part has given Microsoft a much needed IP that is high-profile and help drive Xbox sales.
But, the real aspect severely limits if not eliminates the possibility of a playable character from those racing series. Both GT and Forza heavily push the shiny new car(s), and intentionally so - after all, anything new and shiny will be more inviting to a lot of people. That would complicate Smash Bros. negotiations right from the start - Sakurai noted that getting Brosnan's likeness would be too much of a headache, and he wasn't replaced as Bond until 2006. Cars are replaced on the GT / Forza covers more often, and the same goes for the real life musicians who usually sign on for a game sponsorship (Helloooooo "The Beatles Rock Band"!) and not much else.
Still, if Nintendo were hypotheoretically willing to pay the expenses they could go for such a stage or music. That's asking quite a bit, yes, but it's not entirely out of the question. "Only" almost out of the question given how fiscally conservative Nintendo are.
So yeah, there are neccessarily genres which will probably never get playable reps in Smash Bros. Not as long as the current "No 4th parties" rule holds and / or Nintendo continus to be very vary re: just throwing money around willy-nilly.
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RGFS
Smash Journeyman
That's really impressive. It honestly makes me want Lara Croft more than before to see her success going strong. Though sales aren't everything, really impressive sales are good at seeing more concrete worldwide popularity and recognizability.
Though with Sephiroth being this pass' Square Enix rep, I'm mighty doubtful of her appearance. Especially when the Final Fantasy series from SE is at around 150 million and they just got a fighter this pass.
Plus, there's series with bigger accolades. Let's not forget how an old certain game keeps selling around 20 million units per year for at least 2 years now and is sitting at 140 million units sold on its own with a series that has sold over 320 million units. While I feel like seeing a fighter for this series isn't too likely at this point, I'm at least betting on seeing a Mii Costume from the series at some point.
cashregister9
Smash Hero
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Guitar Hero did have some characters that I could see getting added..
Like Arthas from Warcraft, Arthas is our Guitar Hero Rep
Like Arthas from Warcraft, Arthas is our Guitar Hero Rep
Forget the Warcraft stuff, the most jarring part of this whole video is that the piano track has been mapped to the guitar.
RGFS
Smash Journeyman
I just think you need to think about it a little more creatively. CoD could do the Hero thing. Have two protagonists from Modern Warfare like Soap and Price with two from Black Ops like Mason and Woods. Give them a bunch of weapons and abilities from the series. Battlefield could get spirits. Need for speed and other racing series could get different racetrack stages or spirits. (Like Mario Kart) Guitar Hero could get either a fighter with a guitar (sick as hell) or just some spirits. Also give Just Dance a stage or spirits.
Smash is about all of Nintendo and all of gaming being celebrated, not just one popular group at some specific point in time. As long as they get decent representation. It's not important to be front and center as a fighter when other series have other notable things to stand on. Rythm Heaven is Nintendo so seeing them as the main rhythm series with a fighter would be expected.
Professor Pumpkaboo
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Im shocked they let Yuri go back on the popularity polls and I also like how thycalled Yuri big brother lolSo the Tales of Festival results came in regarding the most popular characters. While Yuri's still a spot above him, Lloyd actually managed to reach third place. Obviously, it's too recent to be taken into account for Smash or anything, but it's interesting Lloyd ranked so high. Around here, the general assumption seems to be that Lloyd's only popular in the Smash fanbase, but this doesn't seem to be the case here.
Another thing of interest is that they thought a lot of Lloyd's support came from overseas, which would paint him as a Western fan-favorite. They also say Yuri's basically the opposite of Lloyd, which makes the speculation dynamic between the two pretty interesting.
For context, the actual winner of the poll was Luke. Screw Lloyd and Yuri, Luke's the new frontrunner now
SharkLord
Smash Hero
Funnily enough, someone on Lloyd's thread said the exact same thing
Though, I do remember a post saying Lloyd's popularity shot up after the Mii Costume back in Smash 4, making people realize "Oh %$#@, he's our ticket to Smash!" Perhaps it's an extension of that that's been building up for the past half-decade or so. That, and the stunt his voice actor almost pulled if Mr. Irving reached the top three in a poll before.
Icedragonadam
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Even more shocking, he didn't reach 1st place!
But yeah, Lloyd skyrocketing to third is impressive, wouldn't be surprised if the speculation for him in Ultimate was the main factor.
Professor Pumpkaboo
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2nd is good enough to me lol but Luke does look cool so I dont blame him for being 1st
Ayumi Tachibana
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If you consider "Smash is a celebration of gaming" statement Sakurai made really that important, I think you also should take his "Smash is a Japan made Japan game" statement into account since he said this exact line a coulple of times during the Ultimate's DLC cycles.
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Its heartwarming seeing Lloyd up there. The comments also expressed why I love him so much. He's a great leader and always stays firm to his ideals even if the world is literally falling apart. He's very much a classic hero and I love that about him.So the Tales of Festival results came in regarding the most popular characters. While Yuri's still a spot above him, Lloyd actually managed to reach third place. Obviously, it's too recent to be taken into account for Smash or anything, but it's interesting Lloyd ranked so high. Around here, the general assumption seems to be that Lloyd's only popular in the Smash fanbase, but this doesn't seem to be the case here.
Another thing of interest is that they thought a lot of Lloyd's support came from overseas, which would paint him as a Western fan-favorite. They also say Yuri's basically the opposite of Lloyd, which makes the speculation dynamic between the two pretty interesting.
For context, the actual winner of the poll was Luke. Screw Lloyd and Yuri, Luke's the new frontrunner now
On a less personal note, this is just more proof that Lloyd was never unpopular in the Tales community. I don't know why that narrative was made, but it's wrong. Symphonia was the entry point for a lot of people, of course people like it and its characters.
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Ayumi Tachibana
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I feel like his resurgence started from the Sm4sh Mii costume.
Idon
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Shin Megami Tensei: Synchronicity. A free short metroidvania made to promote the release of Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey Redux.
It's unfortunately unavailable legitimately anymore, but you may be able to find it if you poke around the internet. Make sure you download the fan translation patch as well.
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