Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Perkilator]

Alright, game time.

What characters do you think could fit in with Second Chance Theory, and why? We don't have anything solid go off of anymore (That we know of, at least), but I want to document a definitive list of potential options. Thinking of starting up a thread for this stuff. Also note that I don't think everyone on the list would be the only options; It's mostly for fun (And because I have nothing better to do with my time, apparently).

Bandana Dee and Eggman.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And also ignoring the MvCI flopped because of Disney micromanaging the game.

Not sure why I didn't include that since my argument was that the reasons for MvCI flopping were completely unrelated to Monster Hunter, and in fact, Monster Hunter was one of the highlights of the game for many people.

Daily reminder that any statements about the devs being "unhappy with MH's portrayal in Infinite" are completely unsubstantiated and likely false.

That's also an important point. The portrayal of the character in a crossover is likely more important than the the crossover game's success. From what I've heard, Monster Hunter's portrayal in Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite is faithful down to the little details, so that would actually be a point in its favor.

 

[Louie G.]

Alright, game time.

What characters do you think could fit in with Second Chance Theory, and why?

Monster Hunter, obviously. But beyond that...

I should probably take the opportunity to plug someone from Rhythm Heaven, since it's apparent that there were further plans for the series as far back as Smash 4. Presumably it simply wasn't a priority for base game Ultimate, but maybe there are some ideas there that Sakurai or Nintendo may feel are worth exploring. And outside of spirits and iirc one or two (random and unfitting) tracks, they strangely didn't bother to expand much on this series that they almost gave a full-fledged character. I'm certainly not hopeful but I guess Rhythm Heaven is in a slightly better place with this in mind.

It's kinda hard to say though, you could probably twist any number of characters into sounding like a legitimate case for this theory.

A friend of mine discussed with me how Rayman is worth keeping in mind given Ubisoft's continued support of Smash since Smash 4 and Nintendo since even longer than that, Rayman hanging on as non-playable content noticeably longer and more consistently than other third parties... If nothing else I wouldn't be shocked if he was at leat considered at some point given those continued ties and that looming presence. He actually even got negative content from last game with the exclusion of Globox and Barbara from the game.

I have my hangups with both of these characters' odds beyond whatever they have going for them with the "second chance" stuff, but looking at it in a vacuum I think they'd be characters worth acknowledging.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Honestly, Ryu Hayabusa's Negotiations have probably been going on for so long that he'd probably fall into the theory as well.

That’s actually a very plausible idea. Though there is no concrete proof Hayabusa was planned for base. Hes been rumored since I think Terry. Its very possible these negotiations stretch backwards quite a ways.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

Vergeben got the fact that Steve was in negotiations for Five Years right, I'm confident that if Ryu Hayabusa were to happen, that he'd likely fall into the Second Chance Theory, like it means anything lol.

 

[Flyboy]

Yeah, I don't believe that " second chance" theory either. In my personal opinion, all theory's are absolute bull****

You're free to believe that, but you also seem to completely or perhaps willfully misunderstand why it's being discussed. It is a theory because it is a hypothesis based on evidence. So far we've had a character who missed base, a character whose negotiations lasted a long time, a character who filled out missing content from base, and another character who missed base. Yes, they can flip the script on us whenever they want. But you're literally telling a speculation forum whose job it is to speculate based on information given that they're all bull****ting and shouldn't speculate.

I do not get it.

 

[SharkLord]

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

Vergeben came back and stated that "Koei-Tecmo definitely was contacted by Nintendo" or something like that. Note that he just said Koei-Tecmo; It could be for a fighter, but it could also be for the Yuri AT, the Three Houses footage used in Byleth's trailer (Not that Byleth themselves are a KT rep, of course), and the AoC Spirit Event. It's a pretty open-ended statement.

Bandana Dee and Eggman.

Please elaborate good sir I need reasoning too, not just names.

 

[Pillow]

Vergeben got the fact that Steve was in negotiations for Five Years right, I'm confident that if Ryu Hayabusa were to happen, that he'd likely fall into the Second Chance Theory, like it means anything lol.

Did Vergeben also back Hayabusa? This is the first I’ve heard this.

We don’t have much info to go off of either way at this point, I suppose. I will say that, while I think there is merit to believing in the second chance idea for many of the characters we’ve gotten this far in pass 2, this seems to me like another case of people trying to use a pattern to predict the next dlc character - which pretty much is never a good thing to rely on for Smash, which is constantly breaking said patterns.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Also, 3BitSaurus , off-topic, but a bigger gun you might need:

Where is this from? I feel like I should recognize it, but it's not ringing any bells.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I've wondered for a while now why people assume Sony wouldn't allow any of their characters in Smash. Sure, it hasn't happened yet, but if Nintendo came to them asking for Aloy or Kratos or something, is there real precedent suggesting Sony would shoot them down?

It's because, unlike Microsoft, Sony still considers Nintendo to be their competition.

 

[Perkilator]

Please elaborate good sir I need reasoning too, not just names.

In that case:

• Eggman could bring way more Sonic music with him
• Bandana Dee could bring more modern Kirby content in general

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You're free to believe that, but you also seem to completely or perhaps willfully misunderstand why it's being discussed. It is a theory because it is a hypothesis based on evidence. So far we've had a character who missed base, a character whose negotiations lasted a long time, a character who filled out missing content from base, and another character who missed base. Yes, they can flip the script on us whenever they want. But you're literally telling a speculation forum whose job it is to speculate based on information given that they're all bull****ting and shouldn't speculate.

I do not get it.

Even Fire Theory (which is just a poop post) is based off of the fact that all Fighter Packs have a character that uses fire in it, and that Fire is an incredibly common element. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it became true out of sheer coincidence.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah, I don't believe that " second chance" theory either. In my personal opinion, all theory's are absolute bull****

Did Vergeben also back Hayabusa? This is the first I’ve heard this.

He said KT met with Nintendo in regards to Smash.

Hayabusa in Smash is just the most logical conclusion to draw from that.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Alright, game time.

What characters do you think could fit in with Second Chance Theory, and why? We don't have anything solid go off of anymore (That we know of, at least), but I want to document a definitive list of potential options. Thinking of starting up a thread for this stuff. Also note that I don't think everyone on the list would be the only options; It's mostly for fun (And because I have nothing better to do with my time, apparently).

Second Chance Theory is less about what could they bring and about what could've happened in the base game. ARMS and XC2 released too late, and Steve took five years to negotiate. We don't know if Sephiroth 100% fits under that theory, but Final Fantasy had infamously sparse representation, and there's been some speculation on what led to the FF situation.

Decidueye because it was almost chosen to be the Gen 7 rep but Sakurai decided on Incineroar instead and Alucard because he was almost going to be chosen but Sakurai went with Simon and Richter for the Vampire Killer.

Monster Hunter is another character but I've already explained why I think they work for this theory.

Honestly I'm more inclined to call it "Filler theory" because the characters we've gotten seem to be added to make up for the lack of content for the following series being ARMS, Final Fantasy 7 and Xenoblade 2. Minecraft seems to be an outlier but since it was in talks for five years and Banjo & Kazooie got in first, I believe Minecraft fits this as well.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Did Vergeben also back Hayabusa? This is the first I’ve heard this.

We don’t have much info to go off of either way at this point, I suppose. I will say that, while I think there is merit to believing in the second chance idea for many of the characters we’ve gotten this far in pass 2, this seems to me like another case of people trying to use a pattern to predict the next dlc character - which pretty much is never a good thing to rely on for Smash, which is constantly breaking said patterns.

Nah, but Considering Ryza was Deconfirmed, Hyrule Warriors was Deconfirmed which kills the other Warriors Games as well, and DoA is NOT for Good Boys and Girls. So the only logical Koei Tecmo Character would be Ryu Hayabusa if all the other options were killed or wouldn't make any sense.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Nah, but Considering Ryza was Deconfirmed, Hyrule Warriors was Deconfirmed which kills the other Warriors Games as well, and DoA is NOT for Good Boys and Girls. So the only logical Koei Tecmo Character would be Ryu Hayabusa if all the other options were killed or wouldn't make any sense.

Wait, how does Hyrule Warriors kill all Warriors games?

 

[Louie G.]

He said KT met with Nintendo in regards to Smash.

Hayabusa in Smash is just the most logical conclusion to draw from that.

That's a theory my friend, so by your logic it's "absolute bull****".

 

[Speed Weed]

Nah, but Considering Ryza was Deconfirmed, Hyrule Warriors was Deconfirmed which kills the other Warriors Games as well, and DoA is NOT for Good Boys and Girls. So the only logical Koei Tecmo Character would be Ryu Hayabusa if all the other options were killed or wouldn't make any sense.

this is where gitaroo man comes in

 

[MarioRaccoon]

The curious thing about MH is despite getting rejected to include the Hunter as a fighter, they could have put a proper stage, spirits, music and own symbol, like Animal Crossing situation in Brawl (who had everything but a fighter), but it didn’t happen, who knows why. Maybe it was just time constraints and they give priority to franchises with playable characters.

But as I said numerous times, its very very likely we will see more Mh content in smash. At minimum, Smash 4 MH costumes and specific spirit events for Rise and Stories 2. At best its own CP pack with everything (fighter, stage, spirits, music).

 

[DarthEnderX]

That's a theory my friend, so by your logic it's "absolute bull****".

Yes it is. But they asked, so I answered.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Wait, how does Hyrule Warriors kill all Warriors games?

Okay, think of it this way, Hyrule Warriors would be the one Nintendo would want in if we got a Warriors Character since they have partial ownership, and it would've been the best PR Wise, being a New, Original, Zelda Character after 20 Years. So if Nintendo didn't want Hyrule Warriors, then they would've just went for Hayabusa if Koei Tecmo were to get a character.

 

[Deleted member]

Hayabusa in Smash is just the most logical conclusion to draw from that.

That's what they want you to think, then trailer drop happens and BAM!

Suezo eyes the competition!

 

[JOJONumber691]

this is where gitaroo man comes in

Who owns the Series Music?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Okay, think of it this way, Hyrule Warriors would be the one Nintendo would want in if we got a Warriors Character since they have partial ownership, and it would've been the best PR Wise, being a New, Original, Zelda Character after 20 Years. So if Nintendo didn't want Hyrule Warriors, then they would've just went for Hayabusa if Koei Tecmo were to get a character.

For what it's worth, I don't think Nintendo cares about negative publicity...

 

[Speed Weed]

Who owns the Series Music?

I dunno, I don't actually expect it to happen but it's objectively the best timeline for KT

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

That's what they want you to think, then trailer drop happens and BAM!

Suezo eyes the competition!

You thought it was Hayabusa..

Spoiler

But it was me Joe Musashi all along!

 

[JOJONumber691]

For what it's worth, I don't think Nintendo cares about negative publicity...

Again, it would be easier to get Hyrule Warriors if we were to get a Warriors Character at all.

 

[Ivander]

The curious thing about MH is despite getting rejected to include the Hunter as a fighter, they could have put a proper stage, spirits, music and own symbol, like Animal Crossing situation in Brawl (who had everything but a fighter), but it didn’t happen, who knows why.

I don't know why they don't do this with more franchises. Because even if they don't want a character from them, they can still use them for stages. Compared to fighters, stages don't need to worry about marketability and stages from dormant franchises can garner interest in those franchises.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Okay, think of it this way, Hyrule Warriors would be the one Nintendo would want in if we got a Warriors Character since they have partial ownership

Except DW is hugely popular in Japan and would also be a big get for Smash. Probably moreso than a 7th Zelda character.

But it was me Joe Musashi all along!

Metting with KT results in a Sega character?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Except DW is hugely popular in Japan and would also be a big get for Smash. Probably moreso than a 7th Zelda character.

I mean it is worth noting that Age of Calamity has been a particularly strong success for KT, particularly in the West:

Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity is the best-selling Musou game with 3.5 million sales

 

[JOJONumber691]

Except DW is hugely popular in Japan and would also be a big get for Smash. Probably moreso than a 7th Zelda character.

True, but then there's also a Balancing Issue that comes in as well. Think of the Basic Gameplay of a Warriors Game. Wouldn't it be a Balancing Issue to get it working in Smash, and faithful to the Source Material, if we were to not get a Seventh Zelda Fighter. Especially when Hayabusa has 10x More History than Dynasty Warriors. It could happen, it's just that I can't see it. Honestly, if Hayabusa happens, he'd probably just be the Terry of his Company, with Music (and Content) from every other major Koei Tecmo Series besides Ninja Gaiden ONTOP of Ninja Gaiden.

 

[chocolatejr9]

True, but then there's also a Balancing Issue that comes in as well. Think of the Basic Gameplay of a Warriors Game. Wouldn't it be a Balancing Issue to get it working in Smash, and faithful to the Source Material, if we were to not get a Seventh Zelda Fighter. Especially when Hayabusa has 10x More History than Dynasty Warriors. It could happen, it's just that I can't see it. Honestly, if Hayabusa happens, he'd probably just be the Terry of his Company, with Music from every major Koei Tecmo Series.

Wait, why would BALANCING of all things be an issue? They got Steve of all things to work in Smash.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

True, but then there's also a Balancing Issue that comes in as well. Think of the Basic Gameplay of a Warriors Game. Wouldn't it be a Balancing Issue to get it working in Smash, and faithful to the Source Material, if we were to not get a Seventh Zelda Fighter. Especially when Hayabusa has 10x More History than Dynasty Warriors. It could happen, it's just that I can't see it. Honestly, if Hayabusa happens, he'd probably just be the Terry of his Company, with Music from every major Koei Tecmo Series.

Just make Zhao Yun's moves have lag but a large range without thin hitboxes. Also what the hell does Zelda have to to with this?

 

[JOJONumber691]

Wait, why would BALANCING of all things be an issue? They got Steve of all things to work in Smash.

Steve was a Programming Issue, Warriors is a Full Screen Combo that is Stupid Flashy that effects every one on your screen. Again, they could Balance It, but I simply can't see it.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

On the topic of Dead or Alive characters, I just looked at Dead or Alive 6's roster, and the characters that would be omitted because of their outfit are as follows:

• Helena (could be fixed with by turning the stockings into leggings, and maybe making the boob window smaller)
• Honoka (could be fixed by lengthening the skirt)
• Tina (Debatably. I'd have to look at Pandoria again to make sure, but I think she'd be fine.)
• La Mariposa
• Mai Shiranui (wouldn't even be included anyway. lol)
• Momiji
• Rachel

I don't know how important most of these characters are to the series, but this only 7 of the 31 characters in the game, and at least one of them is a guest. This makes me confident in claiming that most of Dead or Alive's cast would be allowed to join in in some capacity.

 

[SharkLord]

Alright. From what I've been given and my own ideas, I've got this.

Content with no Fighter

• Monster Hunter - MH has a large amount of content for a series without a fighter, and the music is titled like the playable third-parties. However, it could simply be that it was just considered for the boss fight only, as the monsters are also an iconic part of the series (Though not the only one). The music could just be because of the boss stage.

Rumors and Leaks

• Koei Tecmo Fighter - Vergeben has said that Nintendo has dealt with Koei-Tecmo. Could lead to a fighter, but it could also refer to the Yuri AT, the footage from Byleth's trailer, and the AoC Spirit Event.
• Lloyd Irving - Was mentioned in the big Negotiations Rumor, having been in the planning stages but dropped for whatever reason.
• Yuri Lowell - Mentioned by the Negotiations Rumor alongside Lloyd.
• Chun-Li - Named by the Negotiations Rumor as having been considered but "replaced by Ken somehow." Nintendo could go back to her for her icon status, though the situation with Ken may put her in league with Decidueye and Alucard, implying that the original deal is done.

Considered for Past Games

• Rhythm Heaven Fighter - The Chorus Kids(?) were seemingly considered for Smash 4, only being ditched late in development. It's possible that Sakurai and/or Nintendo could go back and revive them, seeing as the development for Smash has been going on since the beginning of 4.
• Ayumi Tachibana - Similar to Chorus Kids, but with Melee and Smash 64. Interestingly, the later makes her the oldest character to be planned and scrapped without being brought back as a fighter later on. In Melee's case, she was cited as not being recognizable to Western audiences, which is now moot because of the upcoming FDC port.

Speculation and Theories (Crackpots Included)

• Granblue Fantasy Fighter - Hitagi once mentioned Katalina as coming to Smash. It could be a similar situation to Verge and Steve, though it should also be noted that they were likely referring to Granblue Fantasy
• Rayman - Has received minor roles in Smash 4 and Ultimate, longer than most other third-parties. He may have been considered at some points, though it's also possible that he was just always a collectable.

 

[chocolatejr9]

On the topic of Dead or Alive characters, I just looked at Dead or Alive 6's roster, and the characters that would be omitted because of their outfit are as follows:

• Helena (could be fixed with by turning the stockings into leggings, and maybe making the boob window smaller)
• Honoka (could be fixed by lengthening the skirt)
• Tina (Debatably. I'd have to look at Pandoria again to make sure, but I think she'd be fine.)
• La Mariposa
• Mai Shiranui (wouldn't even be included anyway. lol)
• Momiji
• Rachel

I don't know how important most of these characters are to the series, but this only 7 of the 31 characters in the game, and at least one of them is a guest. This makes me confident in claiming that most of Dead or Alive's cast would be allowed to join in in some capacity.

Not to sound rude, but wouldn't it be better to look at ALL the playable characters in the series, just to be safe? We could be missing some obvious ones...

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Not to sound rude, but wouldn't it be better to look at ALL the playable characters in the series, just to be safe? We could be missing some obvious ones...

All of the major ones yes, but since I have no idea who those are I can't really do that. However, since each game should have most if not all of them, especially with a roster size of 31, just Dead or Alive 6's roster is a pretty safe bet to have a look at. At the very least, it's a good preliminary check.

EDIT: Who knows, they could mostly pull from Dead or Alive 6 anyway, be it because it's the newest game, or because everyone was redesigned for it so that's where most of the unproblematic designs are. Either way it shouldn't be that bad for a Fighter Pack.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Monster Hunter, obviously. But beyond that...

I should probably take the opportunity to plug someone from Rhythm Heaven, since it's apparent that there were further plans for the series as far back as Smash 4. Presumably it simply wasn't a priority for base game Ultimate, but maybe there are some ideas there that Sakurai or Nintendo may feel are worth exploring. And outside of spirits and iirc one or two (random and unfitting) tracks, they strangely didn't bother to expand much on this series that they almost gave a full-fledged character. I'm certainly not hopeful but I guess Rhythm Heaven is in a slightly better place with this in mind.

It's kinda hard to say though, you could probably twist any number of characters into sounding like a legitimate case for this theory.

Considering that Sakurai has cut Chrom from Smash 4 and add him in base game Ultimate, I think that there's a possibility that Chorus kids or any other Rhythm heaven characters was considered for base game Ultimate. This would make sense also considering that Megamix was still pretty new when Ultimate's roster was decided (Megamix being released in Summer 2015 and Ultimate roster was probably decided in early 2016). My guess is that if Chorus kids was indeed planned a second time, it was cut again either because:
-The moveset is too complex (Trio characters, Rhythm mechanics?)
-They where low priority and there wasn't enough time for them (considering that every of Ultimate's newcomer comes from franhise way bigger than RH)
(It's probably a mix of both reason honestly)

To be fair even if they where planned a second time I don't know if they could get in the last 2 spots. 2 spots is really not a lot, and RH is starting more and more to be irrelevant unfortunately (and according to Tsunku no games are planned for the switch as of April 2020.

That being said, maybe with the dlc thay had more time for complex moveset (like Steve), so that would give RH characters a final chance. The thing is, if Nintendo did choose every character, I don't see RH getting in. If Sakurai had more power, I guess it could happen in theory, but with only 2 spots left I wouldn't count on it. Also this wouldn't be the first time that Sakurai consider a fighter and does not really consider it for the next game (such as Krystal and Dixie kong in Brawl).

 

[SNEKeater]

If they're truly bringing back ideas they couldn't implement for base game or characters that have been negotiated for some time, and the next 2 characters will also follow this concept, then I just feel Monster Hunter is a lock.

I mean, even without the base content Monster Hunter makes a lot of sense for multiple reasons.

So in my eyes, MH would be one of the remaining 2 DLCs. The other one feels more unpredictable because no franchise is in a similar position as Monster Hunter, which had a boss/AT, music, stage and a few spirits in base game. Maybe a Tales character, if the Chun-Li/Tales rumour is actually true.