Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Guynamednelson]

This is where the rule dies imo. Could these characters be exceptions to the rule? Sure, but that proves the existence of exceptions, and thus, makes it impossible to disqualify anything based off the rule.

There's still people who think Final Fantasy VII counts as a "new world" because of its previous lack of songs and spirits.

But it still had a fighter regardless, and FFVII fans were still going to buy Smash for Cloud.

 

[Koopaul]

We need to stop thinking about new worlds in literal sense and think it about it more as "fresh new content".

Challenger Packs are designed as a coherent bundle of content fresh for Smash. Whether that's for a series not represented at all, a game that's not represented at all, or a series/game that is so severely lacking in content that it could benefit from a fresh bundle of goodies.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Honestly the whole new worlds justification is just a series of moving goalposts:
"Oh, it means that they have to be from entirely new franchises."
BYLETH JOINS SMASH HOUSE!

"Oh, it means that they have to be from a setting that doesn't have any content already."
MIN MIN TAKES ARMS!

"Oh, it means that they have to be from a setting that doesn't already have a character or stage."
SEPHIROTH STORMS INTO BATTLE!

This is where the rule dies imo. Could these characters be exceptions to the rule? Sure, but that proves the existence of exceptions, and thus, makes it impossible to disqualify anything based off the rule.

I'm saying to keep that in mind. I think it matters for DLC. It matters. It's something we need to keep in mind because DLC has to sell. So offering content new to the Game, from World Barely Explored or Completely New. This is a guideline I use to guide me because it hasn't been Disproven entirely.

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

Daily reminder that we need a Tetris stage as DLC. Seriously, how the heck has it not happened yet?

Also the new worlds thing is kind of hit or miss, seeing as we did get Byleth after all. I would say that in theory it might matter but honestly taking Sakurai's word exactly is not great since he leaves himself enough wiggle room sometimes.

Stage DLC would be a good way to bridge the gap between Sephiroth and whoever's next if they're going to take a while to be ready, like they did back in 2015 between Ryu and Cloud. I can't imagine re-implementing some of the simpler missing stages from previous games would take too much dev time, and I'd happily throw a few bucks towards getting Woolly World or Pac-Maze back.

 

[Guynamednelson]

or a series/game that is so severely lacking in content that it could benefit from a fresh bundle of goodies

I was already considering that to be How Isaac (and some others) Can Still Win™. No fighter, no stage, only two songs, spirits are only the series' main protagonists/the first game's party members.

I can't imagine re-implementing some of the simpler missing stages from previous games would take too much dev time

It's still not as easy as copying and pasting. They have to make it work with the game's lighting engine, remodel the Omega form, and make a Battlefield form. And if it's a Melee/Brawl/3DS stage, remodel it entirely.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

We need to stop thinking about new worlds in literal sense and think it about it more as "fresh new content".

Challenger Packs are designed as a coherent bundle of content fresh for Smash. Whether that's for a series not represented at all, a game that's not represented at all, or a series/game that is so severely lacking in content that it could benefit from a fresh bundle of goodies.

I'm saying to keep that in mind. I think it matters for DLC. It matters. It's something we need to keep in mind because DLC has to sell. So offering content new to the Game, from World Barely Explored or Completely New. This is a guideline I use to guide me because it hasn't been Disproven entirely.

In which case, almost everyone can be DLC because it's not hard to find a fitting stage and music for. The only thing you could even have trouble on is a batch of Spirits for series with an extensive Spirit list already, and even then it's not impossible.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I was already considering that to be How Isaac (and some others) Can Still Win™. No fighter, no stage, only two songs, spirits are only the series' main protagonists/the first game's party members.

It's still not as easy as copying and pasting. They have to make it work with the game's lighting engine, remodel the Omega form, and make a Battlefield form. And if it's a Melee/Brawl/3DS stage, remodel it entirely.

Melee needs the Remodel, but Brawl and 3DS only need updated Models because they still have those Models unlike the Melee Models.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Melee needs the Remodel, but Brawl and 3DS only need updated Models because they still have those Models unlike the Melee Models.

It's all too low-poly for the Switch. Doesn't matter how easy the older models are to access.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Melee needs the Remodel, but Brawl and 3DS only need updated Models because they still have those Models unlike the Melee Models.

I don't know if they wouldn't still have them so much as they just wouldn't look good no matter what you did with them due to the much higher graphical fidelity of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Effect is the same though.

Ironically they'd probably be able to reuse things like the background from Planet Zebes for the Super Smash Bros. stages since they're going for the retro look.

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

It's still not as easy as copying and pasting. They have to make it work with the game's lighting engine, remodel the Omega form, and make a Battlefield form. And if it's a Melee/Brawl/3DS stage, remodel it entirely.

Naturally. But they were willing to go for it with Pirate Ship on Wii U, plus N64 stages and Super Mario Maker on Wii U and 3DS. So there is precedent for old stage DLC and new stage DLC.

And I picked the examples I did intentionally. While a stage like Woolly World wouldn't be a literal copy/paste/sell/done, being from the Wii U game means it has assets that would probably require less new work than, say, re-implementing Poke Floats. Pac-Maze would likely be a pretty easy stage to set up graphically speaking, making it more analogous to something like the based-on-existing-tiles Mario Maker stage. And so on.

 

[JOJONumber691]

True, but then again you can update lower poly models if you needed to. Nanobuds did that constantly back in Smash Wii U Modding, and if an Independent Modeler can do it, so can an experienced Triple A Team.

 

[Koopaul]

In which case, almost everyone can be DLC because it's not hard to find a fitting stage and music for. The only thing you could even have trouble on is a batch of Spirits for series with an extensive Spirit list already, and even then it's not impossible.

Not really the same thing.

Obviously every single series, (even Mario), has content not featured in Smash yet. But that's not the same as offering a bundle of music, spirits, and a stage from a series that barely had anything.

So I hate to say it but I think anyone who wants Bandanna Waddle Dee and says "well there's not a lot of modern Kirby content" is missing the point. These Challenger Packs aren't here to fill in blind spots for a series that already has a substantial amount of content.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I think Bandanna Dee would be perfect for DLC, with enough Content everywhere to make a Full DLC Pack, but I understand that Nintendo wouldn't view it as Marketable Enough to be DLC. So unless our New Kirby Game has a Playable Character introduced in it, I don't see Kirby getting chosen.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

In which case, almost everyone can be DLC because it's not hard to find a fitting stage and music for. The only thing you could even have trouble on is a batch of Spirits for series with an extensive Spirit list already, and even then it's not impossible.

I agree, but at the same time I think that some franchise will have a harder time make a decent fighter pack than other. Take Animal crossing for example, and let's say you want a Tom Nook challenger pack. Well you could add a New horizons map, but aesthetically, it would look very similar to Tortimer island or Town and city (of course you could make different layout and hazard, but it would have that same Animal crossing style). You could add New horizons music remixes, but most of New horizons ost sound very similar to the soundtrack of others Animal crossing, so there wouldn't be any super exciting music. For the spirits, you can add some of the new characters like Raymond and Judy, but they're not extremely popular to be honest from what I've seen. So in the end, sure you get new content, but nothing extremely exciting and nothing that really feel "new". And I think that's what the dlc are trying: each characters, stage, music and new spirits feel fresh.

Byleth did come from an already represented franchise, but Garreg mach was a new aesthetic that wasn't touched in Smash even with past Fire emblem stages. The music also sounds very different from what Fire emblem has done before. Sephiroth also represented a game that already have a stage, but they try something different by bringing the ending of the game (while most Smash stage bring the first area or the main area of the game represented). The stage feels very different to Midgar. And the music bring new remixes, which the base game lack in the FF7 universe. Those remixes convey a lot of emotion like Aerith theme or FF7 main theme that the 2 original songs couldn't.


So I think that instead of looking from new worlds, the question is "can the new character bring something new in this already represented franchise". I take the example of Tom Nook, because I think that New horizons isn't a ambiguous case: it probably wouldn't add a lot of new thing that Animal crossing didn't already do. But some franchise are in a more ambiguous situation. Take the example of Kirby. There'a already a lot of content, but also some more that is untouched. Would Nintendo think it's worth doing a Kirby challenger pack or they would think that Kirby is fine like this? I think this is more the question we need to ask ourselves instead of focusing on what's the definition of a new world.

 

[SNEKeater]

In the "Sakurai presents Banjo" video around 24 minutes Sakurai say "adding more characters into the game means that more game worlds will be added to the series". He also say that Smash ultimate is a unique opportunity because there's already so many different worlds and he want to "keep improving on the record". So while he don't say that new characters will only come to new franchises, it seems that one of his goals was to put more new universe than he can.

I remember reading that the translation for that was a bit iffy, and that in japanese he said something different. Similar to how in Sephiroth's presentation Sakurai originally said something like "people thinks we got 2 songs because it's Square's fault, but that's not the case". Or at least that's what I read not long ago.

Also I'm gonna share this four vignette story I just found on Twitter. It's very cute...

Original source:

Bringing Despair#smash #smashbros #FinalFantasyVII pic.twitter.com/OA6rOT6dvj

— Wooden Plank Studios (@WoodenPlank) January 27, 2021

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I remember reading that the translation for that was a bit iffy, and that in japanese he said something different. Similar to how in Sephiroth's presentation Sakurai originally said something like "people thinks we got 2 songs because it's Square's fault, but that's not the case". Or at least that's what I read not long ago.

Also I'm gonna share this four vignette story I just found on Twitter. It's very cute...

Original source:

Bringing Despair#smash #smashbros #FinalFantasyVII pic.twitter.com/OA6rOT6dvj

— Wooden Plank Studios (@WoodenPlank) January 27, 2021

Said last prank that was referenced in the final panel.

Original Source:

Why do I hear boss music?#smashbros #SmashBrosUltimate #FinalFantasy pic.twitter.com/ZfxxB0qcrK

— Wooden Plank Studios (@WoodenPlank) January 20, 2021

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Do we even know if the Reggie “different worlds” quote applys to FP2?
For all we know it was just for pass 1. Combine that with the amount of times we’ve reevaluated the meaning of that quote and I put zero stock into it’s legitimacy as a speculation tool.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Raymond

not extremely popular

lul

Not a counterargument, I just thought this was funny.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

lul

Not a counterargument, I just thought this was funny.

Everyone Loves Raymond.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I just realized Sephiroth wears 2 belts for absolutely no reason...

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I just realized Sephiroth wears 2 belts for absolutely no reason...

Sephiroth’s making a fashion statement.

 

[JOJONumber691]

That's Tetsuya Nomura for ya!

 

[SKX31]

Daily reminder that we need a Tetris stage as DLC. Seriously, how the heck has it not happened yet?

Only reason I can reasonably think of is that it might be a lot of work to do when they're already busy with Challenger Packs. It touches on a thought I've had that I'd love if the DLC team was larger (allowing for stuff like additional ATs, additional stages beyond Small Battlefield etc.) but that's besides the point (nor is it a massive issue, just a small preference).

But yeah, a DLC Tetris stage would be a good thing. Besides the classic Type A (Korobeiniki) and Type B, it would also be a good opportunity to add other Tetris songs and other related songs like Kalinka (which was composed around the same time as Korobeiniki to boot).

I just realized Sephiroth wears 2 belts for absolutely no reason...

It's one of Nomura's trademarks. Ever seen Lulu's belt usage?

 

[3BitSaurus]

I just realized Sephiroth wears 2 belts for absolutely no reason...

If I'm not mistaken, that's actually a fairly small amount of belts compared to other Nomura designs.

Love the comic. There's a part of me that kinda likes goofball-but-also-a-psychopath Sephiroth. And the fact that he seems to always be shirtless, because why not.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Only reason I can reasonably think of is that it might be a lot of work to do when they're already busy with Challenger Packs. It touches on a thought I've had that I'd love if the DLC team was larger (allowing for stuff like additional ATs, additional stages beyond Small Battlefield etc.) but that's besides the point (nor is it a massive issue, just a small preference).

But yeah, a DLC Tetris stage would be a good thing. Besides the classic Type A (Korobeiniki) and Type B, it would also be a good opportunity to add other Tetris songs and other related songs like Kalinka (which was composed around the same time as Korobeiniki to boot).



It's one of Nomura's trademarks. Ever seen Lulu's belt usage?

A Belt Dress............?
A Belt Dress why?

The Belt Dress.

BELT DRESS.









BELT DRESS!


BELT DRESS!


B E L T D R E S S !



BRUH WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYY LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Guynamednelson]

for absolutely no reason...

It's a JRPG. Does he need a reason for multiple belts?

 

[JOJONumber691]

True. Also new PFP to support one of my Most Wanted. Despite the Fact that Dixie probably ain't happening this game rip.

 

[JustPlainDan]

He just had to include Leon in that comic lol

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

A Belt Dress............?
A Belt Dress why?

The Belt Dress.

BELT DRESS.









BELT DRESS!


BELT DRESS!


B E L T D R E S S !



BRUH WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYY LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I seem to remember it was meant to be a challenge for the animators.


For people's reference, these are where the Reggie/Sakurai statements come from:

"These are going to be characters that are new to the series... characters that you would not anticipate to be in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate"

"Adding more characters into the game means that more game worlds will be added to the series"

I think there's one other mention of the idea by Sakurai, but I couldn't find it. It might be from an interview or something.

 

[Koopaul]

Yeah, "game worlds" could easily mean "the world of Luigi's Mansion 3" or "the world of Breath of the Wild 2"

I don't take it to mean an entirely new fictional universe of a series. But I do see it to mean that they want to add new fresh exciting content to Smash. It's clear they aren't going to throw in willynilly.

 

[Firox]

Only reason I can reasonably think of is that it might be a lot of work to do when they're already busy with Challenger Packs. It touches on a thought I've had that I'd love if the DLC team was larger (allowing for stuff like additional ATs, additional stages beyond Small Battlefield etc.) but that's besides the point (nor is it a massive issue, just a small preference).

But yeah, a DLC Tetris stage would be a good thing. Besides the classic Type A (Korobeiniki) and Type B, it would also be a good opportunity to add other Tetris songs and other related songs like Kalinka (which was composed around the same time as Korobeiniki to boot).



It's one of Nomura's trademarks. Ever seen Lulu's belt usage?

Wow....an entire dress of belts. lol Who needs a belt to keep their pants up if they have a pair of pants made out of belts?

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Yeah, "game worlds" could easily mean "the world of Luigi's Mansion 3" or "the world of Breath of the Wild 2"

I don't take it to mean an entirely new fictional universe of a series. But I do see it to mean that they want to add new fresh exciting content to Smash. It's clear they aren't going to throw in willynilly.

Also, plurals in Japanese are finicky, so some people like PushDustin who understand Japanese have taken the original sentence to mean the world of Smash brothers would be expanded, rather than new worlds would be added.

Either way, the takeaway seems to be that the devs are looking to expand the crossover. There's no indication by the two statements that every character will be from an entirely new world, though, or even a new game. Sakurai's statement specifically is far too general to make that conclusion. Reggie was also only talking about the first fighter's pass in his section. At that point in time, Fighter's Pass 2 would have only been a consideration.

My opinion is that both were examples of PR talk. It sounds exciting, but doesn't tell us much more than we already knew. DLC is happening, and it's going to be new stuff because almost all the old stuff is already here. They also are looking to move into new territory. At this point, that much should be obvious. We've gotten fan requests, characters from huge franchises, characters from games with a lot of legacy, characters from newer IPs, characters who fill roles in games that have never previously been DLC in Smash, and a newer gaming icon with little Nintendo presence. All of that is expanding the crossover in one way or another, and probably half of it is going beyond anything Smash has seen before.

 

[SpectreJordan]

I don’t think this statements have too much weight anymore. But I would expect atleast 2/3 of the remaining characters to be from “new worlds”, that’s just the precedent that’s been set for DLC.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Wow....an entire dress of belts. lol Who needs a belt to keep their pants up if they have a pair of pants made out of belts?

I legitimately had a conversation with a girl who was trying to convince me that belts are only fashion statements, and that they were never designed to hold pants up. All while complaining that her pants wouldn't stay up.

Lulu has clearly ascended. That dress probably weighs at least 20 lbs.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Can Adeleine getting in as a representative of a Kirby saga barely used in Smash whatsoever count as a "new world"? Because if not, I could consider arguing that ARMS wasn't all that far up the ladder by comparison.

Point is, "new worlds" was a highly ineffective quote. I view it as more of a means to stir up hype, less of an accurate translation of what was to come. Which doesn't mean it can't have some truth to it, just not as a strictly verbatim mandate. That's the part many tend to ignore.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If I don’t think Geno took half a damn decade to negotiate for, why on earth would I think Heihachi and Gil did?

The argument isn't about how long it took, it's about when it happened.

All of those returning Smash 4 miis were probably negotiated at the same time they negotiated "Everyone Is Here!"
The reason it took 2 years for the costume to show up is because that's clearly the way Nintendo WANTED to do it. They took all the Smash 4 Miis and intentionally spread them around all of the FPs.

Geno isn't 2 years in because that's how long negotiations took. And he's not 2 years in because they waited a year and a half to negotiate for him. He's 2 years in because that's how long Nintendo sat on him.

i can't be the only one that kinda wants terraria content, right?

I mean, I love that game, but I don't really have any interest in seeing it in Smash.

being a Mythical (which tend to get marketed like crazy)

Not in Smash. Pokemon has no playable Mythics, and only one playable Legendary.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

The argument isn't about how long it took, it's about when it happened.

All of those returning Smash 4 miis were probably negotiated at the same time they negotiated "Everyone Is Here!"
The reason it took 2 years for the costume to show up is because that's clearly the way Nintendo WANTED to do it. They took all the Smash 4 Miis and intentionally spread them around all of the FPs.

Geno isn't 2 years in because that's how long negotiations took. And he's not 2 years in because they waited a year and a half to negotiate for him. He's 2 years in because that's how long Nintendo sat on him.

Uhhhhh, no. That wasn’t what I meant at all.
I was referring strictly to when he was negotiated for. I have no problems with the idea Nintendo has been talking about him since deciding FP1.

 

[GoodGrief741]

The argument isn't about how long it took, it's about when it happened.

All of those returning Smash 4 miis were probably negotiated at the same time they negotiated "Everyone Is Here!"
The reason it took 2 years for the costume to show up is because that's clearly the way Nintendo WANTED to do it. They took all the Smash 4 Miis and intentionally spread them around all of the FPs.

Geno isn't 2 years in because that's how long negotiations took. And he's not 2 years in because they waited a year and a half to negotiate for him. He's 2 years in because that's how long Nintendo sat on him.

[citation needed]

 

[Greyfox22]

I just realized Sephiroth wears 2 belts for absolutely no reason...

I know right. There`s Nomura reason for him to be dressed like that.

 

[Truth the Ceomasterz33]

I just realized Sephiroth wears 2 belts for absolutely no reason...

Why he wears many belts!