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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Wings000

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Reimu, Adol, and Euden
Euden is actually from a Nintendo game so I would probably give it to him

Reimu is less likely than people want her to be considering she's from an extremely niche series in the first place. Being big in Japan almost exclusively probably doesn't cut it anymore like it did back in Melee with Fire Emblem.

I don't play Ys (yet) so I won't comment on the last one.

I guess PW, Klonoa and Rex

You mean...his keychain bauble?
And even then they can just replace it with the KH crown. You don't actually need Disney for Sora considering the most Disney he has with him is Donald and Goofy.

Kingdom Hearts as a series is more linked to Disney (obviously) but Sora can move away from Disney and more into KH or Final Fantasy stuff.
 

ahemtoday

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Elma. Dark Matter, while a big influence on the series villains, has only appeared a handful of times in person lately, and those appearances aren't even in the main campaigns. Plus, there's competition from Bandana Dee, who's received far more requests, has risen to prominence almost at the level of King Dedede and Meta Knight, and is closely tied to the rather unrepresented modern era of the series. As for a Gen 8 Pokemon, SwSh got a Spirit Event, and it used the Pokemon most prominently featured in the marketing. If we were getting a fighter from that game, I don't think we'd be getting a Spirit Event beforehand.

Next up, Reimu, Adol, and Euden

(...Wait, what happens if I experience a :ultgreninja: moment?)
Reimu, mostly because I think the competition isn't very likely.

I only knew Ys' name before hearing it come up in Smash speculation, and even that was from, like, an offhand mention by Proton Jon in his Notte Luminosa LP. Yes, that's an obscure thing to remember. In any case, for the most part Smash DLC so far is either veterans (inapplicable to Ultimate), fairly big names, or first-party series they actively want popular. The exception is Terry, but he's big within the fighting game genre, and I also wouldn't be surprised if he got in because Sakurai is a big SNK fan.

Then, we get to Euden. Dragalia Lost is another thing I only knew about because of speculation, but in this case I don't think I even knew the name beforehand. I believe Nintendo said something along the lines of them shifting focus away from their mobile titles, so I think it's unlikely they'd want to push it the same way they want to drum up interest in Fire Emblem and ARMS. However, it doesn't seem entirely out of the realm of possibility, especially if they decide to make a console game for the series.

While Reimu doesn't quite feel likely, they would definitely be able to get her if they wanted her. And she's a pretty recognizable character with a strong, albeit niche, legacy; even in Anglophone audiences. I don't think it's out of the question they'd want her.

I have already been Greninja'd as I write this, but I'm not deleting this. Your characters are Amaterasu, Chibi-Robo, and Maxwell.
 

Pillow

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And even then they can just replace it with the KH crown. You don't actually need Disney for Sora considering the most Disney he has with him is Donald and Goofy.

Kingdom Hearts as a series is more linked to Disney (obviously) but Sora can move away from Disney and more into KH or Final Fantasy stuff.
Yeah but we have Final Fantasy in Smash (only one game but still). Sora would bring Kingdom Hearts with him, which means Disney. Nintendo will have to go through the Mouse House to get Sora in anyway, so if he makes it into Smash I think it would be with SOME Disney content. I always found it weird that so many people wanted Sora to come to Smash without any Disney content.
 

Golden Icarus

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I'm still pissed that Heihachi isn't in.
Like, he's WAY more iconic than Terry.
I love Terry, but everyone knows that Street Fighter and Tekken are the big two.
That's debatable. Fatal Fury has been around longer than Tekken, and KoF has more games than both Tekken and Street Fighter. Not to mention the 'Capcom v SNK' rivalry is just as big, if not bigger than 'Street Fighter v Tekken.'

And on the topic of fighting games, Mortal Kombat actually outshines Tekken in many aspects. MK has been around longer, has more games, higher overall sales, and has more of a history on Nintendo consoles. The only thing MK lacks is a major presence in Japan (which is admittedly a pretty big deal), but it still has a massive legacy in gaming as a whole. No other Western fighting game franchise holds a candle to it.
I guess PW, Klonoa and Rex
I'd say Pheonix (assuming that's who PW refers to). While Rex still has his fans, I feel his time has passed. I actually think Klonoa is a decent sleeper pick, but I still don't think Sakurai would pick him against all the other big requests. Pheonix has been such a prominent figure, with such a passionate fanbase over the past few decades. Ace Attorney's also one of those series that feels like it's practically a Nintendo series, despite being owned by Capcom.

How about an additional Street Fighter character, an additional Sonic character, or an additional Mega Man character?
 

BlondeLombax

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Amaterasu, Chibi-Robo, and Maxwell
I've only ever played one game between these three, but I know at least a little bit about the legacy of the other two. Here goes.
Amaterasu: Okami has been becoming more and more popular as time goes on, and has essentially become to Capcom what DOOM has become to Bethesda, in the sense that they're both being brought to practically every platform imaginable at this point. Ammy's also appeared in fighting games before, and Yami has even appeared as the final boss of one, so the game already has plenty of fighting-game inspiration to draw from.
Chibi-Robo: Definitely not likely for DLC, considering we're looking at plenty of big names, and CR's more or less a niche franchise in itself. The little guy's more suited to be one of those special base-game legacy characters like the Icies or Duck Hunt. Maybe in the next game, but I don't see him popping up.
Maxwell: Scribblenauts is great, and I can definitely see how he could be implemented, especially if he maintains his art-style ala Steve or Mr. Game & Watch. It especially helps that Unlimited had a swathe of Nintendo content to use. The main issue stems from the fact that Scribblenauts is owned by Warner Bros., who also owns Mortal Kombat, so Maxwell's inclusion in favor of Scorpion, Sub Zero, and a lot of others at this point is really anyone's guess.

Aight, my turn; I nominate Crash Bandicoot, Shantae, and Waddle Dee (and by that, I mean a regular old Waddle Dee, not BWD (though I guess he could be an alt)).
 

Commander_Alph

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Yeah but we have Final Fantasy in Smash (only one game but still). Sora would bring Kingdom Hearts with him, which means Disney. Nintendo will have to go through the Mouse House to get Sora in anyway, so if he makes it into Smash I think it would be with SOME Disney content. I always found it weird that so many people wanted Sora to come to Smash without any Disney content.
It's pretty strange considering that the series foundation is stem from the idea of Disney characters meeting Final Fantasy characters and working together. We already know that the general KH audience is made up of Final Fantasy but you can't just forget the fanbase that is into the game through the Disney content. I mean the main emphasis on the series is hopping to different world in search for someone which contain mostly with world based on Disney property and some original one. Yes you could say that these are just fillers but you couldn't argue that these world takes up your gameplay time.

I mean Disney HAS the power to tell Nomura "Hey, we just realized that our Disney stuff don't add much to the plot, so we decided remove them in the next game, so do anything you want with it." What's the reason to include the world of Big Hero 6, Toy Story, Tangled and modern Disney movies in years to come and some old ones like Hercules if the series don't also cater to the Disney crowd.
 
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ForsakenM

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Spring Man wasn't the alternate choice. Ninjara was.
Hey, I missed this the first time around.

So frankly, you do have to do a bit of critical thinking here to see why Spring Man was considered. The reason I say this is because Sakurai himself doesn't actual outright say he was, neither in the presentation nor the Famitsu about Min Min.

At around 6:25 in the presentation, just after Sakutai mentions he was thinking of Min Min and Ninjara, he mentions that most of us fans would likely see Spring Man as the main protagonist, and thus we would assume Spring Man would be the one who would become playable.

Spring Man Evidence.png


Mere seconds later, Sakurai says that Yabuki suggested that all the ARMS fighters are the protagonists or leading characters.

What this suggests when dwelling on it is that Sakurai found it important enough to mention that Spring Man, who we all envision as the main protagonist and thus expected him to be the chosen character for Smash since new franchises have always worked this way in the past, isn't viewed that way by the lead creator of the game and that this justifies Min Min's inclusion in addition to Yabuki wanting her specifically and her being the most popular character voted by fans. This suggests that from Sakurai's perspective, already being a spirit, costume and AT wasn't enough justification to not make them playable in the eyes of most of the Smash fan base and perhaps even in his own eyes.

More importantly, is suggests that Spring Man was likely a contender and possibly even the first choice Sakurai had in mind originally before speaking more in-depth with Yabuki and getting that direction and perspective from him, and from there his request and the general popularity of Min Min made her the best choice since she can be made to faithfully represent the game, please his colleague, and the ARMS fans. Ninjara is clearly Sakurai's favorite ARMS character which is why he was also a possibility.

What is the most interesting thing to note here is that Sakurai never says here at all that Spring Man's AT or any other content of his in the game is why he wasn't selected, which suggests that while it may have ultimately had something to do with the decision by the end of it, it wasn't a heavy deciding factor and most definitely wasn't the one that sealed his fate: it was Yabuki's perspective and the fact that better options came from that perspective.

We also got Spring Man's stage with Min Min as opposed to her stage or any other stage, which I find interesting. There are many reasons for this, I just find it interesting to think about, nothing more.

In conclusion: Even if Sakurai didn't outright state Spring Man was considered, the fact that he thought it was important enough to address why he wasn't chosen and that the reason is because all the characters are main characters instead of just Spring Man and knowing how Smash goes for the main character of new series/franchises, this suggests Spring Man was considered early on. Since Sakurai never mentioned anything about his AT in his explanation, this suggests that his AT wasn't a major factor for his exclusion, and since we know that a PNG didn't stop Min Min this tends to suggest that prior content of characters in general isn't of much consequence to Sakurai and his team when it comes to choosing characters.
 

ForsakenM

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Sure you can.
Sorry bud, but Disney Japan is the reason he is at least not in this pass. This would suggest that he would HAVE to come with Disney content and references, but it's a ***** to agree on.

If just anything Disney from KH could show up, it wouldn't be such and issue, but it's clear that isn't the answer. However, if NO Disney from KH was the answer, I doubt Disney of Japan would have denied him since they make money other way.

Also, you all seem to somehow ****ing forget how dedicated Sakurai is to representing a DLC character and their series/franchise as best as possible whenever it comes to Sora. Hate to say this, but Disney stuff is core to the series, and not showing any of it at all doesn't represent it properly. You just have to swallow that pill my dudes.
 

Idon

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Me seeing people talk about Kingdom Hearts:


Let's make it clear firstly that it's not that people don't want Disney content in Smash, it's that if Disney movie content is what is holding Sora back from attending this Videogame Crossover, then most people would gladly see it go in favor of just the Kingdom Hearts original content.

The main point of contention is therefore:
"Sora must come with Disney movie content and that is why he CAN'T make it to Smash"
vs
"Sora does not need to come with Disney movie content and that is why he CAN make it to Smash."
You'll find people that like and dislike KH on either side of the fence because it's an argument that's more speculative than reliant on personal taste.

Now personally speaking, (just opinions)
I don't really care about the Disney movie content in Kingdom Hearts anymore. I haven't since the beginning of KH1 in 2002; pretty soon after starting the game it became less "KH is Disney x FF" and more "KH is a game about beating up stuff, oh look there's something from Disney/FF"
While it is cool and nostalgic to see FF characters as NPCs and Disney Worlds as the "levels" of the game, they aren't core to the story or central characters. They're used as sideshows and to exhibit whatever theme the game is trying to convey at the moment.
The only exceptions are Mickey, Donald, and Goofy but while they are important, they're not so important that I would deny the addition of Sora at their exclusion.
You could choose to just add KH original content and as a pretty big KH fan, I would not... really care. It's an extremely minor part of why I like KH as a franchise.


I still doubt Sora's getting in, because that means negotiating with Disney and apparently they're real pains in the asses when they choose to be, but the "Disney content" argument always seemed flimsy to me.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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One thing to note is that Sakurai never said Ninjara was the only consideration. What he said was that Ninjara was also on his mind.

We don't know if Sakurai literally considered Spring Man for base even, or if he outright considered him for ARMS DLC. Keep in mind Nintendo chose ARMS, not him, and with the way he speaks on it, they would've chosen Min Min outright too. This also means he's only commenting on Spring Man because he's the mascot and many think he's the literal main character(which isn't really accurate to the story. Call it a copout if you want, but the story is an interchangeable protagonist too. In addition, there is no Manga out yet, and that may be changed. He's originally slated to the protagonist of that story. Sure. This makes him legitimately notable, yes. That doesn't mean much on its own for Smash either). If Sakurai was choosing the character, Spring Man, as I noted, likely on the table, but we have only sufficient data to suggest it was just a base game thing alone. There's nothing to really suggest he would've considered him outright for DLC. If it was a bonus character, perhaps. Now, I won't deny it's quite possible. His stage is literally what Min Min uses, so maybe it's there in a more subtle fashion. His personal choices don't outright dictate who he'll definitely choose either. Would he have chosen Min Min or Ninjara for base? Maybe. But as he is able to control some of the content, he kept Spring Man in the spotlight too overall. Along with Ribbon Girl to a lesser degree.

It's not an unreasonable conclusion that Spring Man was considered here. It's just not that clear if was on his mind for DLC, but likely someone considered but not possible for base. Also, keeping in mind he is not choosing the Fighter's Pass characters, that makes Piranha Plant the only outright DLC he chose. He even noted that "none of them are his personal choices" for all of the Fighter's Pass. That's interestig too. Neither Steve nor Banjo & Kazooie are his personal choice. Did he even have a Microsoft one? Was he going to choose Ninjara then if he could? Or maybe Spring Man? Worth noting he's still a fan of characters like Terry, but I think it was Iori is his favorite. I think it's still great he noted this, as he's saying he's not letting bias control DLC outright. There's still going to be some there, but it's a lot different from if he could hard choose the characters, instead of mostly soft choose them from Nintendo suggesting them(and talking about each one as they come up).
 

Idon

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Me seeing people talk about Kingdom Hearts:


Let's make it clear firstly that it's not that people don't want Disney content in Smash, it's that if Disney movie content is what is holding Sora back from attending this Videogame Crossover, then most people would gladly see it go in favor of just the Kingdom Hearts original content.

The main point of contention is therefore:
"Sora must come with Disney movie content and that is why he CAN'T make it to Smash"
vs
"Sora does not need to come with Disney movie content and that is why he CAN make it to Smash."
You'll find people that like and dislike KH on either side of the fence because it's an argument that's more speculative than reliant on personal taste.

Now personally speaking, (just opinions)
I don't really care about the Disney movie content in Kingdom Hearts anymore. I haven't since the beginning of KH1 in 2002; pretty soon after starting the game it became less "KH is Disney x FF" and more "KH is a game about beating up stuff, oh look there's something from Disney/FF"
While it is cool and nostalgic to see FF characters as NPCs and Disney Worlds as the "levels" of the game, they aren't core to the story or central characters. They're used as sideshows and to exhibit whatever theme the game is trying to convey at the moment.
The only exceptions are Mickey, Donald, and Goofy but while they are important, they're not so important that I would deny the addition of Sora at their exclusion.
You could choose to just add KH original content and as a pretty big KH fan, I would not... really care. It's an extremely minor part of why I like KH as a franchise.


I still doubt Sora's getting in, because that means negotiating with Disney and apparently they're real pains in the ass when they choose to be, but the "Disney content" argument always seemed flimsy to me. I think it's just a minor part of the hurdles Sora faces making it in Smash.
An addendum to my personal opinions;
people are very vague about what "Disney Content" even means for Smash.
To include it would seem rather forced, in most instances. And where it isn't, it's easily ignored.

A Smash character inclusion can be divided into several parts:
The character itself
The stage
The stage's character cameos.
The music
The spirits

For the Character itself, the only Disney content there worth mentioning on Sora is the iconic Keyblade having a Mickey Mouse. That's easily replaced with another piece of iconography. and really isn't noticeable in combat at all. You could argue that Donald and Goofy play integral parts in Sora's combat and they should be in his moveset (they don't by the way) but no JRPG character thus far has utilized additional characters in their moveset at all so that wouldn't change for Sora AND across the 5 or so games he's protagonist, he already is overflowing with potential moves.

For the stage, it would not be representative of Kingdom Hearts to randomly pick one stage from a Disney movie over the plot relevant and recurring stages of the KH franchise. Having Sora fight on ANY movie backdrop wouldn't represent the series nearly as well as Dive to the Heart, Destiny Islands, Traverse Town, Hollow Bastion, Castle Oblivion, Twilight Town, The World that Never Was, or the Keyblade Graveyard.

As an extension of the stage, character cameos of the stage would have to be from the KH universe as there are VERY few characters that follow Sora around his journeys across the world into the plot relevant worlds. The ones that do, (Mickey, Donald, Goofy, Maleficent, Pete) don't especially have to be there, especially not in comparison to the Heartless, the Nobodies, Sora's friends, or the Xehanorts.

Music is also related to the stage. Most battle music from Kingdom Hearts is completely original. The ones that aren't don't fit on an original KH stage. There's MORE than enough to fill an entire tracklist with just KH songs without shoving in Disney Princesses singing or licensed songs or what have you. A tracklist can only be so large and including licensed Disney music over the soundtrack the games are known for is ridiculous to me.

The Spirits is where the Disney content would fit the most and it is also the area in which it is most easily ignored and overshadowed by KH content. Again, a Spirit-board can only be so large and taking that space and dedicating it to minor Disney characters and not the glut main important characters is also nonsensical to me. Even if there was extra space that for some reason had to be filled (there aren't but humor me), Kingdom Hearts has an extremely diverse selection of enemies to pick from, as much as Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy or any JRPG really.


Just wanted to explore what "Disney content" might even entail instead of leaving it at that.
 
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ForsakenM

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One thing to note is that Sakurai never said Ninjara was the only consideration. What he said was that Ninjara was also on his mind.

We don't know if Sakurai literally considered Spring Man for base even, or if he outright considered him for ARMS DLC. Keep in mind Nintendo chose ARMS, not him, and with the way he speaks on it, they would've chosen Min Min outright too. This also means he's only commenting on Spring Man because he's the mascot and many think he's the literal main character(which isn't really accurate to the story. Call it a copout if you want, but the story is an interchangeable protagonist too. In addition, there is no Manga out yet, and that may be changed. He's originally slated to the protagonist of that story. Sure. This makes him legitimately notable, yes. That doesn't mean much on its own for Smash either). If Sakurai was choosing the character, Spring Man, as I noted, likely on the table, but we have only sufficient data to suggest it was just a base game thing alone. There's nothing to really suggest he would've considered him outright for DLC. If it was a bonus character, perhaps. Now, I won't deny it's quite possible. His stage is literally what Min Min uses, so maybe it's there in a more subtle fashion. His personal choices don't outright dictate who he'll definitely choose either. Would he have chosen Min Min or Ninjara for base? Maybe. But as he is able to control some of the content, he kept Spring Man in the spotlight too overall. Along with Ribbon Girl to a lesser degree.

It's not an unreasonable conclusion that Spring Man was considered here. It's just not that clear if was on his mind for DLC, but likely someone considered but not possible for base. Also, keeping in mind he is not choosing the Fighter's Pass characters, that makes Piranha Plant the only outright DLC he chose. He even noted that "none of them are his personal choices" for all of the Fighter's Pass. That's interestig too. Neither Steve nor Banjo & Kazooie are his personal choice. Did he even have a Microsoft one? Was he going to choose Ninjara then if he could? Or maybe Spring Man? Worth noting he's still a fan of characters like Terry, but I think it was Iori is his favorite. I think it's still great he noted this, as he's saying he's not letting bias control DLC outright. There's still going to be some there, but it's a lot different from if he could hard choose the characters, instead of mostly soft choose them from Nintendo suggesting them(and talking about each one as they come up).
Actually, we do have evidence that Spring Man would have been the first go to for both base game and DLC. It comes from Sakurai's Famitsu column on Min Min that talks about what happened initially during the base game. To quote Sakurai...

"The first time I saw ARMS was when Nintendo showed me their games in development so I could incorporate elements of them into the new entry for Smash Bros. This was before both games released, of course.

At that particular time, it was very difficult to integrate a single new fighter into the mix. We had so many different things going on during the production that I initially determined it wasn’t possible. That’s why we were limited to including Spring Man as an Assist Trophy and making some Spirits out of others.

After that, they decided there would be 11 DLC fighters, and one of them would be from ARMS…"

Now, think about this: in a time in which Sakurai didn't have the means or time to make an ARMS character for the base game, Spring Man was the one chosen for an AT, not any other character. This is also during the development of ARMS, before release, meaning it's likely Spring Man could have been viewed as the main character by more than just Sakurai and fans at the time, perhaps even the devs themselves. Min Min wasn't the AT, nor was anyone else: they chose Spring Man, the man with his face on the box art.

So, when Sakurai came back to the ARMS team and Yabuki later on for DLC talks, he likely came with Spring Man in mind, but Yabuki brought up this new perspective he and the game has in which there is no true main character, and thus this opened the door for Sakurai to fulfill Yabuki's request and pick the most popular ARMS character in Min Min.

Link to the column btw: https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...s-development-since-smash-bros-wii-u-and-3ds/

EDIT: You own post actually proves that normally, main characters are picked for new franchises being brought to Smash over Sakurai's preferred. Sakurai likes Iori, but we got Mr. SNK Terry Bogard; Sakurai like Morgana, but we got Joker. Sakurai liked Ninjara, but I bet you he walked in there intent on pickign Spring Man and Yabuki said 'Actually, you could technically pick anyone and still get a main character, but I would like you to put in Min Min because I liek her and so does everyone else based on this poll' and thus it happened the way it did.

This is more evidence that Spring Man was actually considered in spite of his AT. Yeah, ATs don't deconfirm at all, that's WIIIIIIIIIIIIIILDDDD!
 
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BlondeLombax

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Sorry bud, but Disney Japan is the reason he is at least not in this pass. This would suggest that he would HAVE to come with Disney content and references, but it's a ***** to agree on.

If just anything Disney from KH could show up, it wouldn't be such and issue, but it's clear that isn't the answer. However, if NO Disney from KH was the answer, I doubt Disney of Japan would have denied him since they make money other way.
Let's not forget the huge flame war that "supporters" for characters like Goku, Shrek, Spongebob, et al would stir up if Disney stuff were to come with Sora. It'd leave the fandom in ruin.
 

Ben Holt

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Sorry bud, but Disney Japan is the reason he is at least not in this pass. This would suggest that he would HAVE to come with Disney content and references, but it's a ***** to agree on.

If just anything Disney from KH could show up, it wouldn't be such and issue, but it's clear that isn't the answer. However, if NO Disney from KH was the answer, I doubt Disney of Japan would have denied him since they make money other way.

Also, you all seem to somehow ****ing forget how dedicated Sakurai is to representing a DLC character and their series/franchise as best as possible whenever it comes to Sora. Hate to say this, but Disney stuff is core to the series, and not showing any of it at all doesn't represent it properly. You just have to swallow that pill my dudes.
Careful dude. I already died on this hill, and it never ends well.
 

OffBrandANON

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An addendum;
people are very vague about what "Disney Content" even means for Smash.
To include it would seem rather forced, in most instances. And where it isn't, it's easily ignored.

A Smash character inclusion can be divided into several parts:
The character itself
The music
The stage
The stage's character cameos.
The spirits
yeah, alot of people haven't thought this through

sora himself, i'm really not sure how disney would really be incorporated.
the music, can see this, but pretty sure kh can do without and doesn't really need the disney background music.
the stage/cameos, can maybe see, but disney content would likely feel forced.
the spirits, the only place where i would guess at disney content if they got it, but even then, only a couple.
 

Idon

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yeah, alot of people haven't thought this through

sora himself, i'm really not sure how disney would really be incorporated.
the music, can see this, but pretty sure kh can do without and doesn't really need the disney background music.
the stage/cameos, can maybe see, but disney content would likely feel forced.
the spirits, the only place where i would guess at disney content if they got it, but even then, only a couple.
I edited in a more in-depth explanation for all my points but yes,
I feel like the finer details of what content is likely to be included and how much of said content is actually Disney is glossed over.
 
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Pillow

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Me seeing people talk about Kingdom Hearts:


Let's make it clear firstly that it's not that people don't want Disney content in Smash, it's that if Disney movie content is what is holding Sora back from attending this Videogame Crossover, then most people would gladly see it go in favor of just the Kingdom Hearts original content.

The main point of contention is therefore:
"Sora must come with Disney movie content and that is why he CAN'T make it to Smash"
vs
"Sora does not need to come with Disney movie content and that is why he CAN make it to Smash."
You'll find people that like and dislike KH on either side of the fence because it's an argument that's more speculative than reliant on personal taste.

Now personally speaking, (just opinions)
I don't really care about the Disney movie content in Kingdom Hearts anymore. I haven't since the beginning of KH1 in 2002; pretty soon after starting the game it became less "KH is Disney x FF" and more "KH is a game about beating up stuff, oh look there's something from Disney/FF"
While it is cool and nostalgic to see FF characters as NPCs and Disney Worlds as the "levels" of the game, they aren't core to the story or central characters. They're used as sideshows and to exhibit whatever theme the game is trying to convey at the moment.
The only exceptions are Mickey, Donald, and Goofy but while they are important, they're not so important that I would deny the addition of Sora at their exclusion.
You could choose to just add KH original content and as a pretty big KH fan, I would not... really care. It's an extremely minor part of why I like KH as a franchise.


I still doubt Sora's getting in, because that means negotiating with Disney and apparently they're real pains in the asses when they choose to be, but the "Disney content" argument always seemed flimsy to me.
I agree that Sora could conceivably come to Smash without Disney movie stuff and still make people happy. I'm just not sure I agree that the hurdle is the Disney content, but rather that Sora himself IS Disney content. I feel if they let Sora come to Smash, he'd also be able to take with him one of the big draws of his game. But yeah, any talks between Nintendo and Disney for Sora would be very complicated because of that.

I don't personally really have a horse in this race, as the only thing I'd really want from KH is the music (which is a separate tangled IP mess, if FF7 was anything to go by). It's just with how much love Sakurai shows not just the dlc characters, but also the games they originated from, I feel he'd want to bring in Donald and Goofy as well. The only weird thing about Sora is, unlike other characters that show up in the background of stages, Sora's supporting characters are actually way more well known and have been around for much longer than he is.
 

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This is Bizzaro World to me.
I've brought up these exact points before, and the entire thread dogpiled me for doubting Sora.
But now, people are actually acknowledging that Sora is a Disney character.

Have I died and gone to Heaven?
 

DarthEnderX

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but it's clear that isn't the answer.
No it isn't. None of it is clear because we don't know a single thing about the actual situation.

The Spirits is where the Disney content would fit the most and it is also the area in which it is most easily ignored and overshadowed by KH content. Again, a Spirit-board can only be so large and taking that space and dedicating it to minor Disney characters and not the glut main important characters is also nonsensical to me. Even if there was extra space that for some reason had to be filled (there aren't but humor me), Kingdom Hearts has an extremely diverse selection of enemies to pick from, as much as Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy or any JRPG really.
I mean, you could EASILY fill a Spirit Board with just Keyblade wielders and Organization XIII members.

Sora's Keyblade literally has a Mickey Mouse pendant.
There's no divorcing Kingdom Hearts from Disney.
It's completely impossible!!

Sora1.png
 
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Idon

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I agree that Sora could conceivably come to Smash without Disney movie stuff and still make people happy. I'm just not sure I agree that the hurdle is the Disney content, but rather that Sora himself IS Disney content. I feel if they let Sora come to Smash, he'd also be able to take with him one of the big draws of his game. But yeah, any talks between Nintendo and Disney for Sora would be very complicated because of that.

I don't personally really have a horse in this race, as the only thing I'd really want from KH is the music (which is a separate tangled IP mess, if FF7 was anything to go by). It's just with how much love Sakurai shows not just the dlc characters, but also the games they originated from, I feel he'd want to bring in Donald and Goofy as well. The only weird thing about Sora is, unlike other characters that show up in the background of stages, Sora's supporting characters are actually way more well known and have been around for much longer than he is.
Correct, Sora is Disney content and by virtue of being Disney owned, it means working with Disney, which is why I don't see him happening. I've argued ad nauseum about this in the past when the first part of that statement shouldn't be controversial.
That much I can agree on.

My point is more-so that the idea of Disney Movie content being the be-all and end-all on whether Sora is getting in is missing the forest from the trees.
Sora does not NEED non-KH Disney related content, but that ISN'T Sora's biggest hurdle, that would be Disney.

I mean, you could EASILY fill a Spirit Board with just Keyblade wielders and Organization XIII members.
Exactly. A hypothetical Kingdom Hearts Spiritboard would more resemble Nomura's OC Artbook and less the Walt Disney Collection of classic characters.
 
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Representing Sora without Disney is about like representing Mario without mushrooms.
I mean, it can TECHNICALLY be done, but it's obviously forced.

Sakurai literally said in Smash 4 that Ridley without his large size wouldn't be Ridley anymore. Granted, he changed his mind when fans spoke out (likely in the Fighter Ballot), but Sora is much more tied to Mickey Mouse and friends than Ridley is to his size.
 

OffBrandANON

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Representing Sora without Disney is about like representing Mario without mushrooms.
I mean, it can TECHNICALLY be done, but it's obviously forced.

Sakurai literally said in Smash 4 that Ridley without his large size wouldn't be Ridley anymore. Granted, he changed his mind when fans spoke out (likely in the Fighter Ballot), but Sora is much more tied to Mickey Mouse and friends than Ridley is to his size.
please explain, beyond the emblem(a minor thing, easily replaced without feeling forced), kh original stuff, and maybe a few spirits(easily left out without feeling forced), just how exactly disney would get representation at all to be noticeably forced out?
 

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Correct, Sora is Disney content and by virtue of being Disney owned, it means working with Disney, which is why I don't see him happening. I've argued ad nauseum about this in the past when the first part of that statement shouldn't be controversial.
That much I can agree on.
Weirdly enough, I definitely see him happening...eventually. Probably not in this fighters pass, or even in this game, but Sakurai has been cleaning house for a while by adding almost every unlikely seeming requested character - Bayo, Ridley, K.Rool, Cloud, Joker, Steve, and Snake's return are just a few that seemed rather impossible at first but seemed to fit so perfectly in the game once they arrived. Sora just feels like an inevitable continuation of Smash's breaking expectations, especially now that the potential list of new fighters has dwindled to a point where people are calling a Tohou character likely. Disney is notoriously protective of their IP, but it's not like they're impossible to work with, especially if Nintendo just agrees to shove more money at them. It's just, on the day that he does come, I suspect it'll be alongside all of the content from his game and not some weird censored version (unless Ariel is too lewd for the good boys and girls of Smash).
 

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please explain, beyond the emblem(a minor thing, easily replaced without feeling forced), kh original stuff, and maybe a few spirits(easily left out without feeling forced), just how exactly disney would get representation at all to be noticeably forced out?
I explained it in the original post.
I didn't say it CAN'T be done. Mario COULD be represented without any references to mushrooms, but it would be forced given how integral mushrooms are to the Mario universe.

Would you disagree that Disney characters are an integral part of the Kingdom Hearts universe?
 

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please explain, beyond the emblem(a minor thing, easily replaced without feeling forced), kh original stuff, and maybe a few spirits(easily left out without feeling forced), just how exactly disney would get representation at all to be noticeably forced out?
"I'm sorry unless Sora summons Ariel while fighting on Halloween Town while Simba cheers for me in the background, and "Let it Go" blares over the battle sounds, it's just not Sora to me. :/"
(Oh yeah and Sora has a Jack Sparrow Spirit equipped that increases his sword damage)
 

OffBrandANON

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I explained it in the original post.
I didn't say it CAN'T be done. Mario COULD be represented without any references to mushrooms, but it would be forced given how integral mushrooms are to the Mario universe.

Would you disagree that Disney characters are an integral part of the Kingdom Hearts universe?
you're dodging the question. please tell me where else disney would be represented?
 

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you're dodging the question. please tell me where else disney would be represented?
Stage, music, moveset, Spirits.
They CAN censor out all Disney content, but why WOULD they?
Mario jumps. Sonic runs. Mega Man shoots. Pokémon battle. Sora goes on adventures with Disney characters.
That's what Sora IS.
 

ahemtoday

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I explained it in the original post.
I didn't say it CAN'T be done. Mario COULD be represented without any references to mushrooms, but it would be forced given how integral mushrooms are to the Mario universe.

Would you disagree that Disney characters are an integral part of the Kingdom Hearts universe?
Honestly? Yeah, I kinda would. Whenever I see people talk about Kingdom Hearts, it's usually about lights, hearts, and/or darkness; the gameplay; or Organization XIII. I never got the impression that the Disney content was on the forefront of people's minds when they talked about the series.
 

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Honestly? Yeah, I kinda would. Whenever I see people talk about Kingdom Hearts, it's usually about lights, hearts, and/or darkness; the gameplay; or Organization XIII. I never got the impression that the Disney content was on the forefront of people's minds when they talked about the series.
Well, ok. But I have to disagree wholeheartedly.
I can't really argue against a disagreement that fundamental.
 

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Honestly? Yeah, I kinda would. Whenever I see people talk about Kingdom Hearts, it's usually about lights, hearts, and/or darkness; the gameplay; or Organization XIII. I never got the impression that the Disney content was on the forefront of people's minds when they talked about the series.
Kingdom Hearts is about all that stuff. It’s also about Disney Worlds, and Final Fantasy stuff, and some other stuff probably (the games plot and setting are somewhat lost on me). At the very least, Goofy and Donald Duck don’t leave Soras side for like 3 whole games and completely deserve to join him in Smash, at least as stage background characters, because they’re that integral to the whole experience.

I agree it’d be kind of jarring to see them standing next to all these video games characters...but they’ve already stood next to cloud and sephiroth, 2 of the edgiest characters in the game, and people enjoyed seeing that in KH well enough.
 

OffBrandANON

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Stage, music, moveset, Spirits.
They CAN censor out all Disney content, but why WOULD they?
Mario jumps. Sonic runs. Mega Man shoots. Pokémon battle. Sora goes on adventures with Disney characters.
That's what Sora IS.
stage: what disney stuff would they use as the stage while still representing the series? a transitional stage going between disney worlds wouldn't really represent the series.
music: what disney songs would they include, and why?
moveset: i;m not even certain i should have to ask this one, but how the hell would disney be built into his moveset while still representing the series?
spirits: this is the only part where i could see any disney, but even then, i could only see a maximum of 3, and even then, the lack of these 3 characters as spirits wouldn't feel forced given other lacks don't.

and with your examples: where is rescuing kidnapped royalty from villains directly represented by mario(where all three, mario, royalty, and villain play on the same field)? where is fighting a megalomaniac doctor directly represented by sonic? where is catching your opponents to train them against eachother and become the best directly represented by a pokemon rep? your examples are a false equivalence.
 
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ForsakenM

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No it isn't. None of it is clear because we don't know a single thing about the actual situation.

I mean, you could EASILY fill a Spirit Board with just Keyblade wielders and Organization XIII members.

It's completely impossible!!

View attachment 300348
Fun fact: dunno if you knew this or not, but Sora's whole design is based off of Mickey Mouse.

1611397312673.jpeg


Guess Riku will have to be the DLC instead of Sora, since we have to remove Disney content to make it happen. You heard it here folks: Sora can't get in because his design is based off Mickey Mouse, which is Disney content and we can't have Disney content in Smash.

Sarcasm and exposing stupidity aside, we've already had Disney content in Smash back in Brawl with the Chronicle which mention both Mickey and Donald by name, so getting only the video-game-version of Disney characters really wouldn't be that hard. Just have a spirit of Mage Donald, Knight Goofy and apprentice/KH3 Mickey and your done.

Also, are you guys SERIOUSLY suggesting that Smash would have to edit the keychain of the default and most iconic Keyblade in the series? You DO know that in all other crossover media Sora has been in keeps that mickey keychain, right?

Not counting the Tsum-Tsum crossovers because Disney owns them, both his KH1 and KH3 designs in Brave Exvius have the normal keychain as well as his appearance in World of Final Fantasy. I think he's appeared in one other crossover but I may be imagining things.

Even if we got no Disney content OTHER than Sora (who is a fully Disney-owned character designed by Square) part of his iconic design is the Kingdom Key, and they wouldn't edit that in any way. In edition, this argument about Disney content is dumb because Disney owns ALL the KH unique characters, not just Disney character that existed before KH. This means Sora, Kairi, Roxas, Ventas, Xehanort and many MANY more are all Disney characters, and by your logic they couldn't happen if you had to remove Disney content.

So no, either Sora comes with Disney content because he IS Disney content and so is everything tied to him that isn't Final Fantasy, or he doesn't get in at all. No one ever argues this kinda of weird editing and censorship for any other character but for him and it's weird.

Besides, the only credible information we have about him is that Imran Khan suggests Disney Japan already said no and that Shinji Hashimoto himself said there were no plans for Sora in regards to Smash in mid-2019 which is about the time most of us think negotiations for more characters happened. As much as I used to love KH, it really doesn't look good for the lad, and that really doesn't have much to do with his Disney content.
 

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I feel like non-Kingdom Hearts fans have this preconception that Kingdom Hearts is about Disney characters because Disney owns it or that Final Fantasy characters.
It's really not.
And honestly if you argue otherwise, you're either a starstruck Disney kid stuck in the early 2000's or... don't know anything about the series beyond the surface level.

It's Nomura's wacky fantasy adventure which has Disney Roadtrips along the way and Final Fantasy characters as easter egg cameos.
All of that stuff are really just stepping stones between where the meat of the story really is.

Not including Disney content is not only not a disservice to Kingdom Hearts, it's actually preferable in most scenarios I can think of.
I wrote a majorly long post about this, but seeing as it was obviously ignored, I'll reiterate briefly.

Stages:
Sora does not have any personal, symbolic, or plot related attachment to ANY Disney movie. The places he's associated with are wholly original.​
Music:
Pop Quiz, which DLC character has the most amount of songs from one game? Min Min with 18 songs. KH original battle tracks DWARF that number. Yoko Shimomura did not work on Kingdom Hearts for nearly 20 years so you could ignore her extremely long list of songs she wrote specifically for Kingdom Hearts and aren't remixes. Look up "Kingdom Hearts Music" and you won't find any Disney remixes there at all.​
Spirits:
Pop Quiz, which DLC character has the most spirits? Sephiroth does, with 13 spirits (not including the fighter spirt). That can't even include all the characters in Organization 13. There are so many ACTUAL plot related characters you could use if I tried listing them, I'd forget a few.​
Moveset:
Oh my God, does Sora already have, enough on his plate, to work with without, Donald and Goofy. Literally no other JRPG character does this so I don't see why Sora is held to the same standard.​
 
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Ben Holt

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Disney owns ALL the KH unique characters, not just Disney character that existed before KH. This means Sora, Kairi, Roxas, Ventas, Xehanort and many MANY more are all Disney characters, and by your logic they couldn't happen if you had to remove Disney content.
I mean, I WOULD argue that.
 

Schnee117

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Disney is literally just back dressing for the plot of Kingdom Hearts to happen, they're an excuse to have a variety of different worlds you wouldn't necessarily see in a game otherwise.

You could easily scrub Disney from the plot and not lose anything integral to it, Mickey doesn't do anything that only he can do, you can replace him with a generic anime guy named Arxurth and nothing fundamentally changes, you can replace Toy Story with a completely different world and you lose nothing plot wise. Their importance begins and ends at "Oh I want to see this film get a world, imagine X as a partner, Y as a summon and Z as a (super)boss"

Sora without Disney content is perfectly fine.
 
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