Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Þe 1 → Way]

Byleth and MinMin as distance demons cannot be compared to each other in any meaningful way. Saying Byleth had more range than the Belmonts was damn near false advertising, while MinMin has probably more than twice the range of anything we've seen the game(IE they had to step up the range game for it to be acceptable). Sephiroth was less about being a distance demon, so much as being a villain and the one wing angel mechanic, him having a lot of range was not the selling point of the character.

Uhhhhh, no. Sephiroth is 100% a distance demon. It’s literally all of his normals and was seen everywhere. Being a villain isn’t a gameplay mechanic either.

 

[Froggy]

Hmmm, what's the worst take of the day so far? "A Gen 4 remake can't reuse assets from Gen 8 because of colonialism" or "Lara would be poorly received because she's a human"? I genuinely can't decide.

Not just a human, but one without any super natural or sci-fi abilities, there is no other DLC that fits into that archtype. Pretty sure there is a reason for that

Thinking she couldn't be unique either shows a lack of imagination, or a lack of understanding of her games. We don't even have a survival based character. Even PSASBR did, in Nathan Drake.

Saying Lara is a survival based characters isn't exactly accurate. That hasn't been a central theme in the majority of her games, instead her games have primarily been about Tomb Raiding, and that has manifested itself in a variety of ways.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Lara works better as base game IMO. I think a purely human character, with no sci-fi or super natural elements is going to be a bit boring at this point.

I can see where your coming from, While I don't have much history with Tomb Raider, I am aware of the impact that it had, I respect the franchise and would be cool with Lara Croft joining Smash.

That being said many have always wondered how a pretty big and significant character that is Tomb Raider/Lara Croft doesn't garner much Smash demand or attention and I and many believe it's because how "Grounded" she is, It's also why despite being mega popular franchises, Smash fans don't really see or take a "Grand Theft Auto" or "Call of Duty" seriously because their pretty much just regular human beings with regular weapons, Many see it as generic or boring.

More "Over the Top" characters such as cartoony platforming mascots or more anime style characters with crazy weapons and abilities make up the majority of the cast and is what appeals the majority of fans.

Snake is probably the most grounded character that we currently have in Smash and even the Metal Gear franchise goes pretty over the top too.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So um...why is "realistic" vs. magical a thing here? Non-magical fighters have been done before sure, but so have magical ones. In fact, there are way less unambiguously non-magical or sci-fi entities than there are magical/sci-fi ones (in fact it's probably just Little Mac when we throw in "no sci-fi", but that's not really the point). The idea that a character with no magical qualities wouldn't stand out aesthetically doesn't make much sense, and if the argument isn't about aesthetics, then the non-magiceyness of the character is kind of irrelevant since what makes a character stand out mechanically is the stuff that comes from the mechanics and attacks in the source material and Sakurai's creativity; not how realistic the setting is.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Not just a human, but one without any super natural or sci-fi abilities, there is no other DLC that fits into that archtype. Pretty sure there is a reason for that

No, there really isn't.

 

[SharkLord]

Uhhhhh, no. Sephiroth is 100% a distance demon. It’s literally all of his normals and was seen everywhere. Being a villain isn’t a gameplay mechanic either.

To be honest Sephiroth's sweetspots and massive range feel a lot more noticeable than the Winged Form. Granted, I'm a filthy casual who slaps around Level 3 CPUs so that might have something to do with it.

 

[cothero]

I don't have much personal attachment to Lara, but I don't think her being a normal/non-supernatural person would be a problem when it comes to giving her an interesting moveset. The idea of her being able to pull out a ton of weapons & survival tools for her moveset sounds pretty cool tbh.

I know right?... As a huge Metal Gear fan, it kinda sucks Sakurai couldn't find a way to put Snake in the game as he's a normal/non-supernatural person who could have a problem when it comes to giving him an interesting mov...

Wait a minute.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Anything Steve can do, a standard human can do.




My moveset, I've come to love. I took a lot of inspiration from the internet.

LARA CROFT

Style: ACTION SURVIVAL

Standard Special: Dual Pistols. Lara holds B and rapidly fires her pistols. Once she hits a target, it locks on. When locked onto a target, she cannot Shield or Dodge without releasing B. However, if she does use the Shield button, this gives her the ability to lock onto a second target if they are near the first target, and each of the two targets gets hit at half speed (as they each only have one pistol locked on). Lara has full mobility while shooting.

Side Special: Bow and Arrow. Lara can press the combination multiple times to switch arrow types, indicated by a meter on the bottom. The options are

• Standard Arrow (slightly faster than others)
• Fire Arrow (slightly more damage)
• Poison Arrow (Damage that lngers)
• Explosive Arrow (Slightly More Radius of Damage
• Piercing Arrow (can go through opponent and hit multiple)

Up Special: Skilled Climber. Lara throws out a grappling hook. It is longer than the average tether grab, and Is able to be aimed. If it lands, Lara climbs up the rope, and then can continue to climb up the stage by another half of the rope’s length, regardless of the angle. The hook will also cause average damage if it lands on an opponent, and will push them out of the way to securely attach to a ledge if Lara is in the air.

Down Special: Endure. Lara is known to survive, and this move helps her in multiple ways. For several frames once pressed, Lara will enter an invincible mode. This will mean she can survive a couple of hits without taking damage or knockback, break a counter used on her, move through rapid fire attacks. It is also used passively to help her survive for slighter longer when swimming, and passively keeps her from taking damage or effect from stage hazards.

In stark contrast to other characters, and to emphasize that Lara is a human thrown into other worldy adventures- her Smash attacks, not her specials, will use animations of the items in her more magical explorations- though they will not be as versatile as her specials.

I'm not a fan of that down special honestly. It just seems gimmicky for the sake of giving her a gimmick, and that's not really how survival work in Tomb raider (you're never invincible in the game as far as I'm aware).


Personally, I'd just go for something simpler like a Molotov cocktail. If you really want a gimmick around survival, you could maybe make her down special something where she gather ressources, and then used them on her arrow to create the special arrow type.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

To be honest Sephiroth's sweetspots and massive range feel a lot more noticeable than the Winged Form. Granted, I'm a filthy casual who slaps around Level 3 CPUs so that might have something to do with it.

Nope, its not just a you thing. I main Sephiroth and can 100% confirm his sweetspots and normals are way more noticeable than the wing. I often forget the wing is there until I get it knocked onto me.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That being said many have always wondered how a pretty big and significant character that is Tomb Raider/Lara Croft doesn't garner much Smash demand or attention and I and many believe it's because how "Grounded" she is, It's also why despite being mega popular franchises, fans don't see or take a "Grand Theft Auto" or "Call of Duty" seriously because their pretty much regular human beings with weapons, Many see it as generic or boring.

Dunno about Tomb Raider, but I think Grand Theft Auto and Call of Duty are ignored for being Grand Theft Auto and Call of Duty respectively; One is seen as so horrendous that it couldn't or shouldn't get in and the other is just kind of picked on by everyone who doesn't play it.

Iirc, Tomb Raider doesn't have much of a history on Nintendo consoles, so that could be a factor.

 

[SharkLord]

I can see where your coming from, While I don't have much history with Tomb Raider, I am aware of the impact that it had would be cool with Lara Croft joining Smash.

That being said many have always wondered how a pretty big and significant character that is Tomb Raider/Lara Croft doesn't garner much Smash demand or attention and I and many believe it's because how "Grounded" she is, It's also why despite being mega popular franchises, fans don't see or take a "Grand Theft Auto" or "Call of Duty" seriously because their pretty much regular human beings with weapons, Many see it as generic or boring.

More "Over the Top" characters such cartoony platforming mascots or more anime style characters with crazy weapons and abilities make up the majority of the cast and appeals the majority.

Snake is probably the most grounded character in Smash and even the Metal Gear franchise goes pretty over the top too.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily out of "boringness" so much as it's not what Nintendo fans are used to. Nintendo is associated with bright, colorful worlds, usually with a cartoony aesthetic. Whenever they aim for something more explicitly mature (Not that those colorful worlds don't hide any dark secrets, or course), it's usually a (mostly) fantasy RPG, with the sole "realistic" game that's well-known being Metroid. As such, realistic games like Tomb Raider and Call of Duty don't get much discussion in the Smash fanbase, as the vast majority of those fans are Nintendo fans and carry Nintendo's sensibilities, so to speak.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

People point to Byleth as what is okay, forgetting that as a DLC, Byleth was not okay and the fan backlash was worse than it has ever been before. You can point to any number of reasons as to why that is the case, the point being Byleth is a terrible standard to use as to what is okay for a DLC. We don't know the actual sale numbers for the DLC, but going off fan reaction/views/back-lash it would stand to reason Byleth's sales were worst than other chars in the pass. I'm sure Nintendo pays attention to these things.

As such, I reiterate Lara, being a human(even more realistic than Byleth) with no sci-fi or super natural elements would be a poor choice and for more suitable for base game.

If Nintendo would look at things online, they'd know that what made Byleth hated wasn't the lack of "supernatural" or that they had no gimmicks, but simply that they were a Fire Emblem character.

Banjo was well-received despite not having much in terms of gimmicks, and that's despite the fact that he might have had the most toxic playstyle I've ever seen in Smash until Min Min showed up, making him one of the least fun characters to play against.

 

[Froggy]

Uhhhhh, no. Sephiroth is 100% a distance demon. It’s literally all of his normals and was seen everywhere. Being a villain isn’t a gameplay mechanic either.

Being a Villain isn't a gameplay mechanic but it is a selling point of the character. Gameplay mechanics are often selling points but the two things do not stop where the other begins.

I can see where your coming from, While I don't have much history with Tomb Raider, I am aware of the impact that it had, I respect the franchise and would be cool with Lara Croft joining Smash.

That being said many have always wondered how a pretty big and significant character that is Tomb Raider/Lara Croft doesn't garner much Smash demand or attention and I and many believe it's because how "Grounded" she is, It's also why despite being mega popular franchises, Smash fans don't really see or take a "Grand Theft Auto" or "Call of Duty" seriously because their pretty much just regular human beings with regular weapons, Many see it as generic or boring.

More "Over the Top" characters such as cartoony platforming mascots or more anime style characters with crazy weapons and abilities make up the majority of the cast and is what appeals the majority of fans.

Snake is probably the most grounded character that we currently have in Smash and even the Metal Gear franchise goes pretty over the top too.

Snake is pretty grounded, but he gets away with it by being the flash explosions guy. Lara doesn't really have a central theme to sell on, she is just an all-round grounded type which doesn't inspire much excitement. The other grounded characters in the series would be the FE characters, and we've all heard more times than we can count how we have way too much of them.

 

[pupNapoleon]

... her games have primarily been about Tomb Raiding, and that has manifested itself in a variety of ways.

So your point is that raiding tombs is what all, boring, typical, humans do?

Honestly, the games (and... especially the reboot + the new movies) seem to show pretty clearly that Lara is more than just tombs. Hell, at her base, that isn't even what she is- as I'd say recent media makes a point in showing. That's also what I remember about the original games- above all else, survive the boulder, the cliff, the booby trap.

 

[Louie G.]

There's no doubt that Lara could have a solid moveset and on her own merits warrants a spot in Smash...

She just doesn't interest me a whole lot. I'm not immediately won over by the idea of throwing in all the biggest names for the sake of it when I feel Tomb Raider just... doesn't feel like a series that meshes with Smash. It's so hard to explain but it's just never clicked with me. And it's not even like a Nintendo connection thing because Joker fits in just fine and I think Master Chief would be a fantastic addition.

Lara has more Nintendo history than both of them. It still just doesn't feel right to me. If she showed up I wouldn't complain though.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Being a Villain isn't a gameplay mechanic but it is a selling point of the character. Gameplay mechanics are often selling points but the two things do not stop where the other begins.



Snake is pretty grounded, but he gets away with it by being the flash explosions guy. Lara doesn't really have a central theme to sell on, she is just an all-round grounded type which doesn't inspire much excitement. The other grounded characters in the series would be the FE characters, and we've all heard more times than we can count how we have way too much of them.

But what on earth does that have to do with Laura? Her selling point is being one of the original and Iconic female characters in all of gaming.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

I wouldn't say it's necessarily out of "boringness" so much as it's not what Nintendo fans are used to. Nintendo is associated with bright, colorful worlds, usually with a cartoony aesthetic. Whenever they aim for something more explicitly mature (Not that those colorful worlds don't hide any dark secrets, or course), it's usually a (mostly) fantasy RPG, with the sole "realistic" game that's well-known being Metroid. As such, realistic games like Tomb Raider and Call of Duty don't get much discussion in the Smash fanbase, as the vast majority of those fans are Nintendo fans and carry Nintendo's sensibilities, so to speak.

That as well, I mentioned it before in the past as well.

It also explains why someone like Crash Bandicoot and hell even Spyro the Dragon (To a much lesser extent) are much more heavily demanded compared to Lara Croft despite both being Playstation icons.

 

[GillaMonster]

It's a misconception that Lara Croft's move set would be boring.

You know Thor's weapon Mjolnir? She can use that

King Arthur's legendary sword Excalibur? She can use that too

While she is grounded, it's important to remember she's fought dinosaurs, demons and giant octopus before, Lara could definitely make an intresting character. Lara for ultimate!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Lara doesn't really have a central theme to sell on, she is just an all-round grounded type which doesn't inspire much excitement.

Counterpoint: In the reboot she finds a bazooka and makes the entire enemy camp run for their lives.

 

[osby]

It's no magic cartoon platformer but man, you guys really overplay how "grounded" Tomb Raider is.

 

[Froggy]

No, there really isn't.

You think that its a coincidence then that none of the other DLC falls into this archtype? Also Steve's neutral B essentially qualifies as magic before any mentions him again.

If Nintendo would look at things online, they'd know that what made Byleth hated wasn't the lack of "supernatural" or that they had no gimmicks, but simply that they were a Fire Emblem character.

Banjo was well-received despite not having much in terms of gimmicks, and that's despite the fact that he might have had the most toxic playstyle I've ever seen in Smash until Min Min showed up, making him one of the least fun characters to play against.

Banjo is a Bear with a bird attached to him so he can get away with it. People wanting Banjo in had less to do with his design as much as it had to do with him being an incredible source of 200s nostalgia anyways.

 

[SharkLord]

The main thing I know about Tomb Raider is that apparently Lara goes to Atlantis and it's a nasty meat land that would give me nightmares had it not been shown through PS1 graphics.

Yeeeeeaaaah.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The issue is that there's a obviously a way to make Lara stand out with her moveset to the point where she would impress a lot of fans, there's just not that motivation to do that by many in the speculation scene.

She's in an odd gray area of being neither really obvious with how cool their moveset could be (Dante, Monster Hunter, Master Chief) nor so out there that coming up with moves is a fun challenge (Phoenix Wright, Waluigi).

She can work just fine; many aren't terribly curious to see how.

 

[cothero]

It's a misconception that Lara Croft's move set would be boring.

You know Thor's weapon Mjolnir? She can use that

King Arthur's legendary sword Excalibur? She can use that too

While she is grounded, it's important to remember she's fought dinosaurs, demons and giant octopus before, Lara could definitely make an intresting character. Lara for ultimate!

You joined SmashBoards in 2016 and this is your first post?... Damn. I'm happy it was in favour of Lara's inclusion though. Welcome aboard!

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Banjo is a Bear with a bird attached to him so he can get away with it. People wanting Banjo in had less to do with his design as much as it had to do with him being an incredible source of 200s nostalgia anyways.

Still doesn't change my point that Bleth was hated because they were a Fire Emblem character, not because the moveset lacked anything "supernatural"

Because here's a reminder; Byleth has a freaking whipsword! Are those commonplace where you live?

 

[shinhed-echi]

do you consider monkey ball to be "real" sega?

Oh this wasn't on sega consoles was it? But I do, it definitely has the sega charm all over it. So do Samba de Amigo and Billy Hatcher.
(Was trying to emphasize on Sega's acquired companies more than anything).

Yes.... I count Puyo Puyo as Sega.

 

[Froggy]

The issue is that there's a obviously a way to make Lara stand out with her moveset to the point where she would impress a lot of fans, there's just not that motivation to do that by many in the speculation scene.

She's in an odd gray area of being neither really obvious with how cool their moveset could be (Dante, Monster Hunter, Master Chief) nor so out there that coming up with moves is a fun challenge (Phoenix Wright, Waluigi).

She can work just fine; many aren't terribly curious to see how.

This is a fair point. But can she really be designed in a way to matchup with MinMin, Steve and Sephiroth is my question?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The issue is that there's a obviously a way to make Lara stand out with her moveset to the point where she would impress a lot of fans, there's just not that motivation to do that by many in the speculation scene.

She's in an odd gray area of being neither really obvious with how cool their moveset could be (Dante, Monster Hunter, Master Chief) nor so out there that coming up with moves is a fun challenge (Phoenix Wright, Waluigi).

She can work just fine; many aren't terribly curious to see how.

Well with the way this conversation is I'd be tempted to try. Problem is, I've never played Tomb Raider nor have I made myself intimately familiar with the games through other means. I wouldn't be capable of it.

 

[Eldrake]

"Normal humans can't have an interesting moveset" seeks like a bizarre notion.

Gordon Freeman is a normal human, but his gravity gun alone gives him cool interesting moveset potential. I actually had recent thoughts about how one of his special moves could be spawning a throwable object like crates, metal barrels and exploding barrels just for gravity gun fun.

I haven't even played that much of Tomb Raider games, but I can't imagine Lara Croft not having interesting moveset potential when she has canonically used plenty of weapons, both mundane and exotic. I don't think anyone in the current roster uses dynamites, so that would be something unique in Lara's favor.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I wouldn't say it's necessarily out of "boringness" so much as it's not what Nintendo fans are used to. Nintendo is associated with bright, colorful worlds, usually with a cartoony aesthetic. Whenever they aim for something more explicitly mature (Not that those colorful worlds don't hide any dark secrets, or course), it's usually a (mostly) fantasy RPG, with the sole "realistic" game that's well-known being Metroid. As such, realistic games like Tomb Raider and Call of Duty don't get much discussion in the Smash fanbase, as the vast majority of those fans are Nintendo fans and carry Nintendo's sensibilities, so to speak.

I was so convinced you were gonna say Metal Gear that Metroid completely blind sided me lmao.

 

[pupNapoleon]

You think that its a coincidence then that none of the other DLC falls into this archtype? Also Steve's neutral B essentially qualifies as magic before any mentions him again.



Banjo is a Bear with a bird attached to him so he can get away with it. People wanting Banjo in had less to do with his design as much as it had to do with him being an incredible source of 200s nostalgia anyways.

You've got quite long arms to reach that straw, my friend.

You keep asking for a moveset, but didn't respond to mine- which has four unique moves all based on the survival action genre.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

You think that its a coincidence then that none of the other DLC falls into this archtype?

None of the DLC prior to Sephiroth were 3rd party villains or secondary 3rd Party characters with a unique moveset. None of the DLC prior to Steve were Swedish characters. None of the DLC prior to Min Min were spirits.

If anything, breaking a rule makes her more likely at worst, not less.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

This is a fair point. But can she really be designed in a way to matchup with MinMin, Steve and Sephiroth is my question?

Yes, 101%. That is what almost everyone in this thread is telling you.

 

[Louie G.]

what made Byleth hated wasn't the lack of "supernatural" or that they had no gimmicks, but simply that they were a Fire Emblem character

I mean, another part of why I like someone like Banjo more than someone like Byleth is the display of sheer character.

I play fighting games for the characters. I feel nothing playing as another stoic avatar type character with no core identity, from a series with several other characters just like that. I feel a lot playing as the goofy bear with a sarcastic bird in his backpack, because there's nobody else like that in Smash.

Both of them have unique movesets and that gives them value too, but there's a lot more to what makes a character memorable and distinct than simply a new moveset or a unique weapon. It's not just because they're "from Fire Emblem", but it's about the lack of distinct identity and character that Byleth carries alongside them.

Not that I like to dwell on Byleth nearly a full year later, but it feels like not enough people talk about this particular angle when it means a whole lot to me and has largely been my divide toward FE representation in general. There's a reason I like Capcom fighters and characters so much, and it's not because "BB Hood uses knives and nobody else does that".

...of course I can't speak on behalf of the people who genuinely are petty enough to dismiss them only because they're Fire Emblem. I can just say myself that if the Fire Emblem characters were more dynamic and fun personalities then I wouldn't care. Give me someone like Anna, or something. The way they handle inclusions through only the cycling main characters of recent titles is where the issue lies above anything else. They're just not interesting characters.

 

[Froggy]

"Normal humans can't have an interesting moveset" seeks like a bizarre notion.

Gordon Freeman is a normal human, but his gravity gun alone gives him cool interesting moveset potential. I actually had recent thoughts about how one of his special moves could be spawning a throwable object like crates, metal barrels and exploding barrels just for gravity gun fun.

I haven't even played that much of Tomb Raider games, but I can't imagine Lara Croft not having interesting moveset potential when she has canonically used plenty of weapons, both mundane and exotic. I don't think anyone in the current roster uses dynamites, so that would be something unique in Lara's favor.

Steve uses Dynamite, which isn't significantly different from bombs or grenades imo.

None of the DLC prior to Sephiroth were 3rd party villains or secondary 3rd Party characters with a unique moveset. None of the DLC prior to Steve were Swedish characters. None of the DLC prior to Min Min were spirits.

If anything, breaking a rule makes her more likely at worst, not less.

This is so disingenuous. We are not talking about arbitrary fan-rules. We're talking about selling points of a character, obviously things like who is a spirit or who is swedish doesn't matter in this context

 

[cashregister9]

I don't think Lara Croft has a chance anymore, but reasons like "She is too human" help no one and just seem unnecessarily negative

(I don't think Lara has a chance because Square already got a character.)

 

[Mushroomguy12]

We are not talking about arbitrary fan-rules.

"Lara Croft can't get in because she's a realistic human" is absolutely an arbitrary fan-rule. It's not any less sillier than being Swedish or a spirit.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

People were thinking for a second that Hayabusa was less likely because he wore black and had a Katana and so does Sephiroth.

I don’t know how people come to these conclusions.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Steve uses Dynamite, which isn't significantly different from bombs or grenades imo.



This is so disingenuous. We are not talking about arbitrary fan-rules. We're talking about selling points of a character, obviously things like who is a spirit or who is swedish doesn't matter in this context

Selling points of Laura Croft

• At one point being the biggest female character in all of gaming
• A full repertoire of weaponry. Such as Dual pistols, Shotguns, Rifles, Bazookas, Bows with every type of arrow imaginable, Swords, pickaxes, ect. ect.
• A full plethora of Stages like Her Manor or Atlantis.
• A unique mechanic letting her slightly change and upgrade the way her weapons work like in the remake.

 

[Froggy]

You've got quite long arms to reach that straw, my friend.

You keep asking for a moveset, but didn't respond to mine- which has four unique moves all based on the survival action genre.

I already alluded to this when I explained its not accurate to say Lara's games are about survival as that hasn't been a centralizing theme in the majority of her games, and they are about tomb raiding. In fact I don't even know how you incorporate "surviving" in smash. All characters are trying to survive, it doesn't seems less about something that helps personify the character, and just something that is a part of some of her games.