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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Opossum

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That seems rather soon, but I guess they need that time to build up the support bases for someone to notice during planning.
I'll admit it's a bit optimistic. I just picked then because I think that'll be around the point it sets in for more people that the new content releases are over.

Maybe if we want to go a bit further, the Spring Direct. Since that'll be the first major Direct without anything for Smash since it was announced.
 

a.Asdsa

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i bet that guy who tried to claim credit for the Sora on October 5th leak must feel pretty silly now huh
That leak wasn't real. It said Nintendo called Disney for an arrangement in the trailer, but there was seemingly no cooperation with Disney at all. Sakurai even named the director of KH in specific for allowing this to happen, so even if there was any cooperation from Disney, it would have been Square Enix who negotiated it, not Nintendo.

That being said, it's amazing how right it was for a fake 4chan leak. Might be the luckiest fake I've ever seen.
 
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Dinoman96

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That leak wasn't real. It said Nintendo called Disney for an arrangement in the trailer, but there was seemingly no cooperation with Disney at all.
I mean, considering Disney literally owns everything about Kingdom Hearts (even though SE makes the games themselves), there clearly had to be some kind of cooperation.
 

a.Asdsa

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I mean, considering Disney literally owns everything about Kingdom Hearts (even though SE makes the games themselves), there clearly had to be some kind of cooperation.
Ok. What was the arrangement in the trailer then? It doesn't seem like they used any music that involved Disney.
 
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N3ON

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People will remember eventually. Takamaru, Lyn, and Krystal all had thriving threads from March 2018 until the E3 reveal where they were shown. Before the August presentation, Ashley straight up had one of the single most active threads here. And it took until the November presentation for Isaac and Skull Kid to die off. Those supporters don't just disappear forever (okay maybe barring Skull Kid because I swear the fluctuating support for him since like 2012 is the weirdest thing lol).

Honestly it'll probably happen shortly after Sora actually releases. That's my guess.
Good because if it doesn't happen at least after the dust has settled and everyone is fully looking forward, I'm going to send the ghost of this account to haunt what remains of these forums.
 

PeridotGX

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I think we're gonna see a pretty big Zero support base next time around. He's a very popular character, and the two biggest obstacles to his inclusion (his AT and the one per third party series rule) are gone. I can even forsee some fighting between the Zero fanbase and the Dante/Phoenix fanbase because the latter wouldn't want the next capcom rep to be from a series already in the game.
 

N3ON

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I'll admit it's a bit optimistic. I just picked then because I think that'll be around the point it sets in for more people that the new content releases are over.

Maybe if we want to go a bit further, the Spring Direct. Since that'll be the first major Direct without anything for Smash since it was announced.
I am a bit apprehensive though just because of how long they've been off the table, and many likely to be without new games to rekindle the popularity. I mean you see newer or more forgetful people seemingly overlook the fact that they were popular to begin with.

I guess it's up to the respective fanbases to regather themselves and do it all over again. Again. I just wonder how many of the fair-weather fans have fallen away for good.

I think we're gonna see a pretty big Zero support base next time around. He's a very popular character, and the two biggest obstacles to his inclusion (his AT and the one per third party series rule) are gone. I can even forsee some fighting between the Zero fanbase and the Dante/Phoenix fanbase because the latter wouldn't want the next capcom rep to be from a series already in the game.
Yes, Zero, Alucard, Knuckles and Shadow are exceptions, because they will come out of this with even more popularity, thanks to now being seen as on the table. At least more than they ever were.
 

Geno Boost

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I don't think Geno will be as big because at this point his fanbase's taken so many hits over the last 3 speculation cycles, and this cycle was particularly disheartening and filled with drama for the Geno fanbase, so I don't see them regrouping as effectively as in the past.
thats a bold statement k rool and ridley fans were on the same boat before but they came back bigger in each installments Geno basically had the biggest thread in smashboards with 3744 pages if you look at the one before the Sephiroth reveal, pretty sure we all come back once next smash game gets announced the hype of new smash game does bring us together i could say the same thing to Waluigi he is hard to ignore at this point during each new smash game his supports is becoming larger and larger every time.
during the smash 4 era before the ballout is when Geno supports was at his smallest and it was because we thought Square-enix was stingy and we did not expect contents from that company.
 
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Momotsuki

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They definitely had to go through Disney, as evidenced by the trademark being added. Seeing it on the title screen is gonna trigger my damn fight-or-flight response, I'm tellin' ya. Sora's based and all, but I do not like the mouse. I just don't.

We have pretty much no way of knowing how easy or difficult it was to deal with Disney specifically, but it's definitely been implied that everything came together to be quite the hassle, if Mr. Sakurai's comments on the required cooperation are anything to go by. But I'd say it was worthwhile to give Ultimate the ultimate send-off.
I can begrudgingly tolerate seeing the big D on my title screen knowing it spared us from Cinderace. :187:
 
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Dinoman96

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Geno is kind of an odd duck because he technically did "die" before. Just look at his Smash 4 thread over here


His thread didn't even crack 100 pages. Compare that to the absolute kings that were Ridley and K. Rool during that period. Or well, compare it to Geno's thread for this game, at least the first one from before December 2020.

Geno had a lot of fortunate circumstances that brought him and his fandom back into the limelight after seemingly petering out after Brawl. The character was directly acknowledged by Smash and Sakurai for the first time with the Mii outfit released alongside Cloud, and Sakurai then said in an interview released shortly afterward that he actually wanted to make Geno playable. Of course, Ultimate then gets announced a few years later and begins to start fufilling a whole slew of long standing character requests like Ridley, K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie, which gave hope to Geno (and Isaac) fans that they were next in line.

But now Ultimate and come and gone, despite it again fufilling tons of dream requests like :ultridley::ultkrool::ultbanjokazooie::ultsora: and yet the most Geno could get was just the return of his Mii outfit with barely any changes. With the Smash series heading towards an unknown future after Ultimate and considering what already had happened to Geno's fanbase after Brawl and before Cloud's DLC pack, one has to wonder how much the fandom is gonna hold up. After everything that happened during Ultimate it kinda made sense to support him again, but I dunno. Are people still gonna be clinging onto a several year old interview that amounted to basically absolutely nothing the very next game?
 
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Momotsuki

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Geno will be back. Hate it or love it, they’re inevitable. At this point its one of those Shakespearean curses we can only dispell by adding him
Honestly, he deserves it. I have no investment in him personally but one day I hope the dedication on the part of his fans manages to pay off. There's a fair few characters I feel that way about, but Geno's pretty high on that list. The demand managed to get acknowledged on multiple occasions, after all.

I think his best (realistically, only) shot is if we get an Ultimate port at some point. He can't really compete with Square's veterans, but if he doesn't have to...
 
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DaybreakHorizon

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Geno is kind of an odd duck because he technically did "die" before. Just look at his Smash 4 thread over here


His thread didn't even crack 100 pages. Compare that to the absolute kings that were Ridley and K. Rool during that period. Or well, compare it to Geno's thread for this game, at least the first one from before December 2020.

Geno had a lot of fortunate circumstances that brought him and his fandom back into the limelight after seemingly petering out after Brawl. The character was directly acknowledged by Smash and Sakurai for the first time with the Mii outfit released alongside Cloud, and Sakurai then said in an interview released shortly afterward that he actually wanted to make Geno playable. Of course, Ultimate then gets announced a few years later and begins to start fufilling a whole slew of long standing character requests like Ridley, K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie, which gave hope to Geno (and Isaac) fans that they were next in line.

But now Ultimate and come and gone, despite it again fufilling tons of dream requests like :ultridley::ultkrool::ultbanjokazooie::ultsora: and yet the most Geno could get was just the return of his Mii outfit with barely any changes. With the Smash series heading towards an unknown future after Ultimate, one has to wonder how much Geno is actually going to stand to the test of time. After everything that happened during Ultimate it kinda made sense to support him again, but I dunno. Are people still gonna be clinging onto a several year old interview that amounted to basically absolutely nothing the very next game?
This is why I doubt the capability of the Geno fanbase to really get back together and hit levels of popularity similar to this cycle. Geno fans don't really acknowledge this but Geno's popularity has definitely fluctuated across cycles, and, as you mentioned, this cycle specifically had the conditions to create massive support for Geno.

The big question is will those conditions or similar conditions be present for the next speculation cycle? I personally doubt it.
 

WeirdChillFever

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Honestly, he deserves it. I have no investment in him personally but one day I hope the dedication on the part of his fans manages to pay off. There's a fair few characters I feel that way about, but Geno's pretty high on that list. The demand managed to get acknowledged on multiple occasions, after all.

I think his best (realistically, only) shot is if we get an Ultimate port at some point. He can't really compete with Square's veterans. But otherwise...
My opinion on him fluctuates and it’s basically because the reason to add him is to throw the fanbase a bone and sometimes I‘m like “yeah, they’re a part of speculation history!” and sometimes the Geno fanbase feels mad entitled to me so I’m like “you can get your toy back when you behave”
 

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Honestly, the best thing about Ultimate bringing everyone back is that it meant newcomers that otherwise stood no chance against popular veterans suddenly managed to make the cut. I feel like a very solid portion of Ultimate's DLC fits that criteria...
It's why I think the best-case scenario for the series is an Ultimate port (I'm not interested in debating the likelihood of this.) What some have seen as "scraping the bottom of the barrel" with regards to character choices, I see as a fighting chance for some truly interesting fighters.
 
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DaybreakHorizon

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Krystal being free from Wolf’s shadow before being immediately put in the trophy cage is a sad set of circumstances
I think sadder than that is the fact that if Brawl had had more development time we know she'd have been put in over Wolf with a completely unique moveset.
 
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Guynamednelson

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I think sadder than that is the fact that if Brawl had had more development time we know she'd have been put in over Wolf with a completely unique moveset.
And now they can reuse assets to make her playable! It's like poetry, it rhymes.
 

Dinoman96

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I think sadder than that is the fact that if Brawl had had more development time we know she'd have been put in over Wolf with a completely unique moveset.
I never really got that impression.


Question: Why did Wolf become a playable fighter, and not Krystal?



Sakurai:
Wolf was a character that barely made it in due to time constraints. He was added because there was high demand for his inclusion on places like “Smash Bros. Dojo!!”, and he’s a popular character. Of course, if he didn’t have that backing him, I don’t think I could have put him in. Among the characters with high popularity, I chose one who had a high possibility of becoming realized in the game, and as a result you could say Wolf was created.

Host: Does that mean even if you wanted to add more female characters, Krystal didn’t have a realistic chance of being physically implemented into the game?

Sakurai: For Krystal, we didn’t have any of the technical modeling knowledge that we had cultivated with Fox and Falco, so it was like making a brand-new character from scratch. And because of the limited amount of time we had, creating Krystal wasn’t realistically possible. On that point, with Wolf we already have some knowledge of how to model his character, and would require about 70% of the effort required to create a whole new character.

Host: I see. But we did get a lot of questions like, “Why wasn’t Krystal a playable character?”

Sakurai: It’s not that I don’t understand how that feels, but if you start saying that, it becomes “Why isn’t Waddle Dee playable?” or Dry Bones, or Baby Peach. There’d be no end to it.

Host: Well, that is true (laughs).
Some people use this as evidence that Sakurai wanted to make Krystal playable in Smash, but I never really read it that way. It just sounds like we were going to get Wolf or no one. At best, Krystal was momentarily considered.
 
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WeirdChillFever

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I think sadder than that is the fact that if Brawl had had more development time we know she'd have been put in over Wolf with a completely unique moveset.
Meh, I believe that interview gets misread. Imo it isn’t “Yes, Krystal was on the table but we couldn’t finish her“, but it was an interviewer asking about Krystal and Sakurai saying “Look, it had to be Wolf because for someone like Krystal we’d need the time we didn’t have“
 

Momotsuki

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Now I really want [REDACTED. Careful, dude.] in in some capacity.
Honestly, yeah. He went from being just another pre-October 5th doomer meme to "holy **** put him in." Probably Metroid's best villain, period. I never thought somebody would be able to make Ridley look like a nice fellow. He'd basically be Kazuya Samus... which sounds ****ing awesome.
 
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DaybreakHorizon

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Meh, I believe that interview gets misread. Imo it isn’t “Yes, Krystal was on the table but we couldn’t finish her“, but it was an interviewer asking about Krystal and Sakurai saying “Look, it had to be Wolf because for someone like Krystal we’d need the time we didn’t have“
Yeah, that's exactly my point. Crystal would've been feasible had Brawl had more development time. Since it didn't, she didn't get in.

I'm not saying she would've definitely been in, but she never had a fighting chance due to the tight timeline Brawl was on.
 

N3ON

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Considering Krystal ain't happening until she returns to that series, and the series itself returns, and she hasn't been part of it since... pre-Brawl? It was nice to see what likely got her added as an AT was the fact that she has retained enough popularity to probably do decently on the ballot.

Too bad Nintendo can't find their footing for possibly their most mismanaged series ever, Star Fox, and give it a direction to let it not stumble through the years on a wing and a prayer. The series kept adding new elements which weren't entirely refined but were a good foundation to build something better off of, then scrapping them each game for something different.

Give this series to someone who can figure it out, please. It's not inherently unworkable, and it's not without untapped potential. It's a sci-fi space opera with flying and shooting and a cast of characters people like, there are so many directions you can take that in.
 

Dinoman96

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The GCN/early DS era was kind of a weird time for Star Fox. In just four years from 2002 to 2006, the series had seen three whole games released back to back like that. The games themselves may of not been that great, but it's pretty easy to see why SF had a lot of mindshare amongst Nintendo/Smash fans growing up during that period, and how the likes of Krystal and Wolf, characters who had major roles in those games (+SF64 in Wolf's case) took off as popular Smash requests.

And it's kinda sad to think that in the years since Command, the last game that featured Krystal and other post-SF64 characters, there's only been one "original" new Star Fox game, that being...Star Fox Zero.
 
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DaybreakHorizon

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Considering Krystal ain't happening until she returns to that series, and the series itself returns, and she hasn't been part of it since... pre-Brawl? It was nice to see what likely got her added as an AT was the fact that she has retained enough popularity to probably do decently on the ballot.

Too bad Nintendo can't find their footing for possibly their most mismanaged series ever, Star Fox, and give it a direction to let it not stumble through the years on a wing and a prayer. The series kept adding new elements which weren't entirely refined but were a good foundation to build something better off of, then scrapping them each game for something different.

Give this series to someone who can figure it out, please. It's not inherently unworkable, and it's not without untapped potential. It's a sci-fi space opera with flying and shooting and a cast of characters people like, there are so many directions you can take that in.
But consider:

More Mario, Legend of Zelda, Animal Crossing, and Fire Emblem.

Star Fox will forever be consigned to vault of dead series, occasionally being dragged out where Nintendo thinks they can cash in on nostalgia.
 

Dinoman96

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Star Fox will forever be consigned to vault of dead series, occasionally being dragged out where Nintendo thinks they can cash in on nostalgia.
More like, occasionally being dragged out where Nintendo thinks they can work with another wacky technical/controller idea Miyamoto thought of.



https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2020/12/feature_the_making_of_star_fox_command

"Miyamoto wanted us to try out new ideas and see what happened"
It’s tempting to ask why Miyamoto chose to adopt a slightly different play style for Star Fox Command, especially as Star Fox 2 had never been seen by the wider public and the past two titles had displeased some fans by straying too far from the original 'on-rails' formula. Cuthbert thinks that the promise of new hardware – hardware which would come to change the way we play – was one of the key reasons. "The ideas in Star Fox 2 seemed interesting to Miyamoto to apply to the Nintendo DS with its two screens. He explained early on that the Star Fox franchise wasn’t about repeating the same game in sequel after sequel, but was a vehicle for exploring ideas in 3D gaming. Just like the early experiments we did in Star Fox 2 with 3D platforming that eventually helped shape Super Mario 64, he wanted us to try out new ideas and see what happened."
"If we’d have had more time, I would have liked to add some 'standard' Star Fox levels with forward-scrolling, but at the time Miyamoto was adamant that we stick with free-range modes," says Cuthbert. "That was part of his 'Star Fox should explore new things' initial direction on the project.
Miyamoto just seems to view Star Fox as a wacky tech demo franchise to do whatever with, and as Cuthbert mentions above he doesn't really care about what the fans want.
 
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N3ON

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And it's kinda sad to think that in the years since Command, the last game that featured Krystal and other post-SF64 characters, there's only been one "original" new Star Fox game, that being...Star Fox Zero.
And it's kinda sad to think that due to that game's entire conceit, it couldn't even feasibly get a Switch port to just help it exist a bit more. Without a massive rework, at least.

But consider:

More Mario, Legend of Zelda, Animal Crossing, and Fire Emblem.

Star Fox will forever be consigned to vault of dead series, occasionally being dragged out where Nintendo thinks they can cash in on nostalgia.
why are you trying to hurt me
 

DarthEnderX

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Don't triple dot me.
Or...what?

Okay, here me out: bring back the Smash Ballot, but it's meant to help decide the next game's DLC.
"here me out" is normally used as a prelude to saying something crazy.

That's a perfectly reasonable suggestion.

So who do you think are the next big 3 or 4 in the smash community for the next game?
Hayabusa, Hayabusa, Bill Rizer, Hayabusa.


Okay, to be honest, I was mostly thinking of a sort of reverse Ultimate: base game is characters Nintendo wanted to add, DLC is fan requests to balance it out.
I think it'll have less to do with who wants what than it does who owns what.

As with Ultimate, base game will be mostly 1st party, while DLC is mostly 3rd.

I would hope the base roster would not have to bend to the will of all those ridiculous ballot votes. Otherwise I’ll never get my most wanteds (Mach Rider, Takamaru, etc)

I admit the fighters I want aren’t ones who are gonna rake in popular votes. Only diehards and nostalgia lovers want them. Sad face.
I'm gonna call BS on that. Because nostalgia requires one to have, ya know, played the thing.

Mach Rider and Murasame Castle are old games, but they're old games nobody played or liked even at the time.

It's like someone claiming they're nostalgic for Ice Climbers. No, no they are not. Nobody would remember that game if not for Smash. And anyone that did, would remember that it sucked.

If Takamaru wasn't an AT, nobody would be asking for him.
 

SKX31

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Yeah, that's exactly my point. Crystal would've been feasible had Brawl had more development time. Since it didn't, she didn't get in.

I'm not saying she would've definitely been in, but she never had a fighting chance due to the tight timeline Brawl was on.
I kinda get the impression that the Krystal AT is a compromise, where they might not have had the time to get her in as a full character (or simply was not prioritized) but still commited to an AT that would feel like a fighter. Ditto with characters like Zero and Alucard. Those are the kinds of ATs that might be the easiest to build off of in future games.

Miyamoto just seems to view Star Fox as a wacky tech demo franchise to do whatever with, and as Cuthbert mentions above he doesn't really care about what the fans want.
That is Miyamoto's Modus Operandi with pretty much everything though (sure, it's to different degrees with the franchises, but this is also notable with Mario and F-Zero). It's both his greatest strength and his most crippling weakness as a developer; on one hand, that imagination has pushed a lot of revolutions and advances in the industry as a whole. On the other hand, he's become so used to it succeeding that he hasn't really thought though the scenario: "What if it fails?"

Also... I'm gonna have to eat a lot of crow re: :ultsora: 's weight (thanks you, Hydreigonfan01 for posting this in the competitive thread):

https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosUltimate/comments/q54zdn
Not only is Sora presumably heavier than :ultmewtwo: and :ultsephiroth: , he's also (again, presumably) heavier than :ultbayonetta: . Must be the Mickey keychain. :roll:
 
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DaybreakHorizon

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And it's kinda sad to think that due to that game's entire conceit, it couldn't even feasibly get a Switch port to just help it exist a bit more. Without a massive rework, at least.


why are you trying to hurt me
I only speak the truth. How you feel about it has no bearing on my intent, however bleak my words may be.
 
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