Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[SKX31]

Both were high on the ballot too, even if winning was a lie.

Ah yes, the return of "Just SDI" .

(Sora didn't kill off of it... but still)

Okay, so I'll go into where Sora might be strong and where he might struggle since his general gameplay traits might be worthwhile to know. Please note that this is pre-release impressions and I could be wrong on some points when he releases:

• + The combo ability is going to be Bayonetta-esque, although that's arguably Sora's main defining trait in his home games - it'd be weird without it. Likewise, seemingly good juggling.
• + Sonic Blade, Aerial Sweep and D-Air give him a lot of mobility mixups. Sonic Blade can cover the entirety of FD.
• + Wide coverage on most moves, allowing him to space.
• + Seemingly amazing off stage edgeguarding because of his high jump heights and lingering attacks.
• + At least okay ledge trapping - Magic will be able to cover most ledge options, and Sora's Keyblade will be able to cover ledge jump. Down Smash will be able to cover get up / ledge attack.
• + The ability to cancel / chain certain moves (Jab / F-Tilt / N-Air / F-Air) might be really good not just for combos but also as mixups / setups.

• - Not sure on the air speed, but the horizontal air speed seems a bit sluggish. Might make him reliant on Sonic Blade for horizontal movement in the air.
• - Slow attack speed / frame data on the whole compared to most of the cast it looks like.
• - Light and floaty means that he'll likely be susceptible to juggles and being KOed early. If he has landing options that will help him, but still.
• - Doesn't seem to do a lot of shield damage, and might be unsafe vs. shields overall.
• - Doesn't seem to have a lot of safe options vs. characters that outrange him. Vs. those his best bet might be to get creative and surprise people.
• - Seemingly a lot of endlag on some moves, like Smash attacks.

(For anyone extra curious, ESAM posted a tweet on early frame data, this can be changed in the final version though)

Also, I wanna call attention to this image:

(As of the end of September 2021)

The game's so great that it's amassed this many battles - despite the screwed up netcode and online.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

"They were very thorough and did a great job responding to our frequent reviews and detailed requests. I think fans will be satisfied with how Sora has turned out, and I hope you all enjoy playing as him. To all of Mr. Sakurai’s staff, thank you so much!" - Tetsuya Nomura

"They were very thorough and did a great job responding to our frequent reviews and detailed requests. I think fans will be satisfied with how Sora has turned out, and I hope you all enjoy playing as him. To all of Mr. Sakurai’s staff, thank you so much!" - Tetsuya Nomura pic.twitter.com/xgQ7aomr5e

— KINGDOM HEARTS (@KINGDOMHEARTS) October 5, 2021

 

[Guybrush20X6]

So how long do we think the game will be patched? On the one hand it'd be nice to finally have a concrete tier list but on the other... Well we all remember what happened to Smash 4.

 

[N3ON]

Finally, Playstation All-Stars has 8-player battles.

 

[Nekoo]

So how long do we think the game will be patched? On the one hand it'd be nice to finally have a concrete tier list but on the other... Well we all remember what happened to Smash 4.

Sora's patch.
One future Balance patch Post Sora.
One final one if needed.

Just like smash 4

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Don't assume your dreams are just fantasy. If you can imagine a world, believe in it... and dive in.

Don't assume your dreams are just fantasy.

If you can imagine a world, believe in it... and dive in. https://t.co/n1qquYIaw2

— KINGDOM HEARTS (@KINGDOMHEARTS) October 5, 2021

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Is it…possible to top this? Sure there are other hype reveals but Sora literally won the popularity contest.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

"They were very thorough and did a great job responding to our frequent reviews and detailed requests. I think fans will be satisfied with how Sora has turned out, and I hope you all enjoy playing as him. To all of Mr. Sakurai’s staff, thank you so much!" - Tetsuya Nomura

"They were very thorough and did a great job responding to our frequent reviews and detailed requests. I think fans will be satisfied with how Sora has turned out, and I hope you all enjoy playing as him. To all of Mr. Sakurai’s staff, thank you so much!" - Tetsuya Nomura pic.twitter.com/xgQ7aomr5e

— KINGDOM HEARTS (@KINGDOMHEARTS) October 5, 2021

Im not crying, you are crying

 

[Shroob]

Is it…possible to top this? Sure there are other hype reveals but Sora literally won the popularity contest.

Honestly?


I legit cannot think of a way to do this unless the next game pulls a EVERYONE IS HERE, 2!, which just seems unfeasible.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Im not crying, you are crying

We're all crying, tears of joy and happiness.

 

[N3ON]

Is it…possible to top this? Sure there are other hype reveals but Sora literally won the popularity contest.

No. Not while sticking to video game characters.

In the west you might be able to equal it with Master Chief, especially since his demand will only go from here. But you'll lack the Japanese contingent.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Honestly?


I legit cannot think of a way to do this unless the next game pulls a EVERYONE IS HERE, 2!, which just seems unfeasible.

Hope you only like, like, 3 unique newcomers total in the base game.

 

[subterrestrial]

inb4 smash ballot part 2: electric boogaloo in 9 years

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

Slowly starting to let go of the idea that the next game will be another one build from the ground up and that they might just end up expanding onto Ultimate a few years down the line for a Switch succesor...

 

[PeridotGX]

Is it…possible to top this? Sure there are other hype reveals but Sora literally won the popularity contest.

Kratos is the only character I can think of who could possibly do it.

Unless... We go beyond video games

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

Don't assume your dreams are just fantasy. If you can imagine a world, believe in it... and dive in.

Don't assume your dreams are just fantasy.

If you can imagine a world, believe in it... and dive in. https://t.co/n1qquYIaw2

— KINGDOM HEARTS (@KINGDOMHEARTS) October 5, 2021

So glad they thought of calling back to that quote. Read my mind.

 

[ForsakenM]

Don't assume your dreams are just fantasy. If you can imagine a world, believe in it... and dive in.

Don't assume your dreams are just fantasy.

If you can imagine a world, believe in it... and dive in. https://t.co/n1qquYIaw2

— KINGDOM HEARTS (@KINGDOMHEARTS) October 5, 2021

So this is important, and I think I want to make a video about this, but basically I can sum it up like this.

Reggie was right as far as I'm concerned: Sakurai has never been turned down. Sora was deemed to be the absolutely most difficult character to get in, Disney content or not. People ragged Sora fans all the time as he was an impossibility, yet here we are. Sakurai REALLY DOES make the impossible possible.

So...

NEVER GIVE UP ON YOUR MOST WANTED.

 

[Sucumbio]

So I am a man of my word.

Did anyone in this thread predict Sora and stick with it from the time they posted that prediction in this thread until the reveal today?

If so please link me the post and await further instructions.

 

[PeridotGX]

So I am a man of my word.

Did anyone in this thread predict Sora and stick with it from the time they posted that prediction in this thread until the reveal today?

If so please link me the post and await further instructions.

@Tehponycon

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I'm a bit late but somehow watch the trailer without spoil. I seriously cannot believe it. After Ridley's too big, K.Rool's too irrelevant, Microsoft wouldn't want Banjo, Steve wouldn't work in Smash, Sakurai breaks the limits of what can be done one last time with Sora. I'm not the biggest Kingdom hearts fans today (with more recent game), but KH 1 and 2 were huge part of my childhood. The madman did it. I'm actually crying right now.

They're NEVER going to top this game. They might do better online and stuff like that, but there will NEVER be another game like this. This is a once in a lifetime expercience and I'm so grateful to have experienced it.

 

[ZelDan]

Is it…possible to top this? Sure there are other hype reveals but Sora literally won the popularity contest.

I mean, sure, it's not impossible. There are plenty of ways Smash 6 could still impress, maybe even moreso than Smash Ultimate. There are still a multitude of "big" characters to pull from (Master Chief, Dante, Crash, Doom Slayer, etc.) characters with notable fan demand/popularity (Isaac, Waluigi, Shantae, Geno, Shovel Knight, etc.), characters from popular games/franchises (Sol Badguy, 2B, Pheonix Wright, etc.), some notable "legacy" picks (Bill/Lance from Contra, Adol Cristin, etc.), and on top of all this, even if the next Smash game has some cuts I imagine a decent amount of the cool characters we got in Ultimate (and previous Smash games for that matter), will return.

When it comes to gameplay then HOLY **** is there so many ways a new Smash game could improve over Ultimate. I enjoy playing Ultimate but hoo boy is it far from perfect.

Honestly just having an story mode with actual story, and actual decent gameplay (so Subspace but much better basically) would be a huge gain.

 

[N3ON]

So this is important, and I think I want to make a video about this, but basically I can sum it up like this.

Reggie was right as far as I'm concerned: Sakurai has never been turned down. Sora was deemed to be the absolutely most difficult character to get in, Disney content or not. People ragged Sora fans all the time as he was an impossibility, yet here we are. Sakurai REALLY DOES make the impossible possible.

So...

NEVER GIVE UP ON YOUR MOST WANTED.

Reading between the lines implies that Sakurai was probably turned down the first time they went for Sora, during the actual ballot era.

Plus, if memory serves, he explicitly said he couldn't reacquire Snake when he first attempted as much. They also couldn't land Sonic right away.

That said, yeah, never give up on your most wanted. But, y'know, don't totally forego critical thinking either and beware of false equivalencies.

 

[Sucumbio]

@Tehponycon

DaybreakHorizon you have been named as a user of this thread who predicted Sora. If this is correct please link your post and upon confirmation I will provide further details in pm. Thanks.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Slowly starting to let go of the idea that the next game will be another one build from the ground up and that they might just end up expanding onto Ultimate a few years down the line for a Switch succesor...

If you wanna be technical about it, Ultimate wasn’t from the ground up either. It used 4 as a base

 

[subterrestrial]

for ANYONE who thinks Smash Bros series has peaked; you're not nearly thinking big enough. Dream and let your imagination run wild forever.

Smash 6 might release in 2035-40 with fully immersive VR, you might be able to BE Sora (for 5.99 ofc)

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Well. This is it y'all. I'm assuming the thread will be closed within the week, if not the day. There's so much I could say, but I'll save that for my final reflections on Smash Ultimate Speculation. I'll probably write two pieces––one as a reflection of the entirety of Speculation from E3 2018 to now, and the other as a reflection of Sora Speculation, and my own thoughts about his reveal.

For now, I'll just say reiterate:

Look, I'm not saying I'm a God speculator, BUT

• I was one of like 5 people to say Joker was even possible right before his reveal
• I said Hero was the most likely first Square character, even betting my account on him
• I said Steve was far more likely than people gave him credit for
• I brought up the possibility of Sephiroth while everyone else was talking Geno as a second Square Enix character
• Before Pyra/Mythra I said Drifting Soul would be in Smash
• I MADE THE TINFOIL HAT THEORY FOR SORA THAT CAME TRUE

I'm kind of a God speculator

I. WIN.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

for ANYONE who thinks Smash Bros series has peaked; you're not nearly thinking big enough. Dream and let your imagination run wild forever.

Smash 6 might release in 2035-40 with fully immersive VR, you might be able to BE Sora (for 5.99 ofc)

Hah

I actually just remembered we had a VR mode

what a big load of useless that was lmao

 

[osby]

If you wanna be technical about it, Ultimate wasn’t from the ground up either. It used 4 as a base

Didn't Smash 4 use a lot of parts from Brawl to the point where some of the early development images are straight from it?

 

[Baba]

Am I the only one who really doesn't like having a song locked behind a 30 dollar game?
I want my game to feel complete but I don't want to drop 30 bucks on a game I'm not going to play. Its a decent song too.

 

[subterrestrial]

Hah

I actually just remembered we had a VR mode

what a big load of useless that was lmao

vr in a 2d platform fighter lmao

 

[Evil Trapezium]

So I am a man of my word.

Did anyone in this thread predict Sora and stick with it from the time they posted that prediction in this thread until the reveal today?

If so please link me the post and await further instructions.

Did I do it?

That's why I've been thinking that Sora could potentially be Fighter 11. Disney is a huge company that can get away with delaying a character's arrival and Nintendo seem to have a lot of respect for them with comments about wanting Mario to be like Mickey Mouse.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Don't assume your dreams are just fantasy. If you can imagine a world, believe in it... and dive in.

Don't assume your dreams are just fantasy.

If you can imagine a world, believe in it... and dive in. https://t.co/n1qquYIaw2

— KINGDOM HEARTS (@KINGDOMHEARTS) October 5, 2021

Stop making me ****ing CRY!

 

[Powerman293]

Also weird to think that Sora has arguably the most famous voice actor of the roster with Haley Joel Osmot being in actual movies and stuff.

 

[PeridotGX]

Honestly I don't think Master Chief would be that surprising anymore. Microsoft has been playing nice, and he's obviously next in line. Maybe next game, if he's revealed before Banjo and Steve's return, but..m

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

DaybreakHorizon you have been named as a user of this thread who predicted Sora. If this is correct please link your post and upon confirmation I will provide further details in pm. Thanks.

I mean there are so many posts where I talk about Sora lmao. You can look through my post history here and find 10 pages of posts about Sora.

I guess the most notable are my Ultimate Square Enix Character Argument and Second Ultimate Square Enix Character Argument, where I extensively discuss his chances and advocate for his inclusion (though I'm also critical of him). Most notable of those is the "Tinfoil Hat" theory from my Second Ultimate Square Enix Character Argument, which theorizes Sora as the final fighter of Fighters Pass 2 specifically, quoted below:

This is a longshot in the dark, and this is not backed by any sort of evidence whatsoever. This is more so just a fun "what if" that I think could happen in 1 out of 14,000,605 futures. If there's a point to attack in this essay, this is not one of them, as this point is not serious at all, nor will I seriously advocate for it as more than a tinfoil hat theory if pressed.

Anyways, as well all know, Fighters Pass 2 has 6 fighters instead of 5. This fact was prominently introduced and discussed in Byleth's Sakurai Presents presentation. I believe that this could be due to the fact that negotiations for a character who had previously been rejected (which we know has occurred due to Sakurai's book) suddenly became available, and Nintendo jumped on it. There is precedent for such a thing occurring in the development of a Smash game, as Sonic was a late addition to Brawl, being added 2 years after the newcomer list had initially been decided. While the exact reason for this has seemingly never been stated, it's common speculation that this was due to Sega initially rejecting the request, and then walking back on it later due to the immense hype surrounding Brawl (this Source Gaming article says as such, but does not link back to a primary source which makes me hesitant to completely believe it).

I think you can see where this is going.

Sora had immense popularity during the ballot period, with the Kingdom Hearts community rallying together for Sora's inclusion. It's not hard to believe that Nintendo tried for Sora then, but negotiations fell through for one reason or another. They drop the issue until Fighters Pass 2, when Disney has done a 180 on video games following the mass success of Kingdom Hearts 3 and is looking to promote the series in the largest gaming crossover of all time. Nintendo approaches Sakurai like they did for Dragon Quest, and they go for it despite having already decided Fighters Pass 2 in its entirety. Since it's DLC, all they have to do is tack on another fighter to the pass and promote as such.

This explanation accounts for Disney's role in negotiations while also accommodating the timeline of Fighters Pass 2 being decided. In the initial deciding, Nintendo had a very thin window to negotiate with Disney if they decided to do so, probably for the second or third time. By going outside of that timeline, however, and explaining Disney's turnaround on negotiations as being due to a desire to capitalize off the success of the Kingdom Hearts series after KH3, you can justify Sora's inclusion as the special sixth fighter in Fighters Pass 2.

Of course, I completely acknowledge the sheer amount of logical leaps and mental gymnastics needed to reach such a conclusion. This certainly doesn't hold up to Occam's Razor, which would sooner accept that negotiations for Sora either haven't occurred or failed in the past, and that this Fighters Pass has 6 characters because Fighters Pass 1 was incredibly successful, Nintendo wanted to add more characters, and it just so happened to work out to 6 characters instead of 5. However, I think this theory is worth mentioning, at the very least as a fun little thought.

 

[N3ON]

What we won't see at the Nintendo Direct: Any of the characters trending being added to Smash Bros. Ultimate.

— Direct-Feed Games (@DirectFeedGames) September 22, 2021

Bad luck, Nate.

And don't with all the "well technically...", you know what he meant.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Bottom Text

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Also weird to think that Sora has arguably the most famous voice actor of the roster with Haley Joel Osmot being in actual movies and stuff.

The fact we were even able to get him to voice Sora amazes me

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Don't assume your dreams are just fantasy. If you can imagine a world, believe in it... and dive in.

Don't assume your dreams are just fantasy.

If you can imagine a world, believe in it... and dive in. https://t.co/n1qquYIaw2

— KINGDOM HEARTS (@KINGDOMHEARTS) October 5, 2021

thanks, i almost hadn‘t been sentimental today.

Well. This is it y'all. I'm assuming the thread will be closed within the week, if not the day. There's so much I could say, but I'll save that for my final reflections on Smash Ultimate Speculation. I'll probably write two pieces––one as a reflection of the entirety of Speculation from E3 2018 to now, and the other as a reflection of Sora Speculation, and my own thoughts about his reveal.

For now, I'll just say reiterate:


I. WIN.

As someone who speculated on the chances of Daisy with the win condition of “If clones return…”, I hereby accept your title as Golden Speculator.

 

[PeridotGX]

Am I the only one who really doesn't like having a song locked behind a 30 dollar game?
I want my game to feel complete but I don't want to drop 30 bucks on a game I'm not going to play. Its a decent song too.

I get it, but that's obviously not what they meant. It was just supposed to be a fun little reward for having KH on Switch.