Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Theguy123]

on the talk of Geno I do actually feel sorry for the fanbase. The fanbase seems to be quite big but with the rights between him being owned by square Enix he’s never gonna appear in another game probably.

it’s a bit like the mcu hulk rights. Universal own the distribution rights but marvel own the movie rights. You known darn well that if one of the 2 fully owned the character and it’s Content then that character would go on to have its own franchise.

this relates to Geno because you know darn well that if Geno was fully owned by Nintendo then he’d go on to have a great future. Maybe one day Nintendo will get the rights back but I fully doubt it.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

LEGO Super Mario 64 Question Block - Launch Trailer

Obligatory Lego Mario confirmed.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Okay, I made my bed and now I have to lie in it: Geno discussion.

My point wasn’t that Geno is a bad choice (heck, my post wasn‘t even about Geno specifically), but it does tie into the thing I did talk about, which is that I occasionally feel that being big in the Brawl era can make up for a lot, when that seniority in speculation might’ve been a peak in speculator nostalgia. “Longtime request” feels to me like “We were teens when we started doing this and nostalgia’s a truckforce”

 

[Jondolio]

Sure, but a lot of people always like to hype up Geno as being "the last major fan request" or put him in in some kind of quartet with , which to me always felt like it was throwing other older requests under the bus.

Oh yeah I agree with that.
From what I can recall, Isaac was a bigger deal and Krystal was pretty much on equal footing with Geno as far as popularity goes (correct me if I'm wrong on this, I only know about Brawl speculation secondhand). Personally, the only "longtime requests" I care about are Geno and Isaac but I don't go around and say they're the last.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

this relates to Geno because you know darn well that if Geno was fully owned by Nintendo then he’d go on to have a great future. Maybe one day Nintendo will get the rights back but I fully doubt it.

Looks at how Nintendo is treating all the beloved Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi original characters.

You sure about that?

 

[MagnesD3]

Mewtwo, Ridley, K. Rool were the old big 3, once Banjo became possible he got on thier level and the new big three based on what I've seen are Crash, Sora and Master Chief, hopefully one of them is the final character.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I still think Geno is a full-on enigma...

There's no mystery there. Geno is a Luma in a wooden Iron Man suit.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

this relates to Geno because you know darn well that if Geno was fully owned by Nintendo then he’d go on to have a great future. Maybe one day Nintendo will get the rights back but I fully doubt it.

He may have seen continued use in a hypothetical Super Mario RPG series, but like most of Super Mario's extended cast (and all of the ones that originate from the RPGs) he would have been otherwise completely ignored.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Mewtwo, Ridley, K. Rool were the old big 3, once Banjo became possible he got on thier level and the new big three based on what I've seen are Crash, Sora and Master Chief, hopefully one of them is the final character.

I was under the impression Ridley, K. Rool, and Banjo were the Big 3 or Holy Trinity as you'd call them?

 

[N3ON]

Okay, I made my bed and now I have to lie in it: Geno discussion.

My point wasn’t that Geno is a bad choice (heck, my post wasn‘t even about Geno specifically), but it does tie into the thing I did talk about, which is that I occasionally feel that being big in the Brawl era can make up for a lot, when that seniority in speculation might’ve been a peak in speculator nostalgia

I mean you need more than being big in the Brawl era, you need to still be popular as well. There are many characters that were big in the Brawl era that have fallen off, like Midna, Claus, Samurai Goroh, Sukapon.

I suppose it will give your argument the extra leg of "we've been going since so-and-so", but that doesn't actually get the character in any faster. In fact, it's an indictment of how long it's taken.

And since there are still characters that linger from the Brawl era who under natural circumstances do have a decent amount of popularity remaining, it's not like isolating any given character to put on a pedestal is really a true picture of their uniqueness. Not to keep picking on the Geno fanbase, but when it's said that Geno is the last remaining Brawl-era favourite... that's not true.

There are still a good handful that remain, and have kept a decent amount of demand. It might not seem like it atm, but that's because most of them got AT'd. When things reset, it'll be a clearer picture.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Being too invested isn't good either. It isn't sunshine and rainbows and it's all the negative Nancy's who are toxic. I was doing the most playful Waluigi ribbing yesterday and I was blocked and called a bully in this thread. It's super weird.

Don’t want to sound insulting but I think there’s a few Waluigi fans on this site that are either annoying, rather young or just flat out trolls. It’s certainly not everyone though.

 

[Jondolio]

I always saw Ridley, K. Rool, and Isaac as the "Big 3" but I guess no one cares about the anime swordsman.

 

[Dinoman96]

this relates to Geno because you know darn well that if Geno was fully owned by Nintendo then he’d go on to have a great future. Maybe one day Nintendo will get the rights back but I fully doubt it.

Considering the current state of Mario RPGs as well as Nintendo's new found draconian brand control over Mario's image....

 

[Deleted member]

The original "triforce of never-evers" was always Ridley, K. Rool and Geno, but I honestly don't expect people to remember memes from 2008/2009. Even I have too much self respect to be the lorekeeper for ancient /v/ memes so I'm not going to bother elaborating. You guys go ahead and say that the triforce of never evers is complete in this game, I'll allow it.

There's no mystery there. Geno is a Luma in a wooden Iron Man suit.

Jesus. That's exactly what they would make him nowadays, probably, a damn Luma.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

There was never a “Big 3” guys. That was made up history.

 

[Firox]

See the whole "Geno got a Mii outfit AND Legendary spirit, clearly that means he's super popular and special!" has always bothered me because...well, you can say for other characters as well.

Like I just said, Krystal, despite being a controversial character from three equally controversial games that Nintendo has basically been trying to bury from the public eye for years, was still popular enough to get the AT treatment, her most major role in a game since Star Fox Command back in freaking 2006, and just like Geno she too has a Legendary spirit. Same exact thing with say, Isaac, who had his Brawl AT restored and renovated and also has a Legendary spirit (though you have to upgrade his regular spirit for it), as well as a Mii outfit just as Geno does.

I think my point is that Geno isn't really that special because there's plenty of other characters Sakurai has acknowledged the popularity of, and yet has only give them consolidation prizes like ATs, Mii outfits and spirits. It feels like the only reason Geno is put on a higher pedestal in comparison to those other characters like Isaac is just because of the magic words "I wanted to make Geno playable" spouted by Sakurai.

Saying that Geno has a following isn't to say that other characters don't. Of course there are plenty of other worthy contenders. Krystal, Isaac, Lloyd, and the list goes on and on. At the same time, a lot of the characters that some people would deem "super popular and special" don't have spirits, AT's or deluxe costumes. Objectively speaking, more content is logically indicative of a higher priority, or at very least, visibility by Sakurai and Nintendo. It can also be an indicator of how willing the source company is to share their IP. Does that mean that characters without spirits or costumes are doomed to never see the light of Smash? It'd be foolish and painfully biased to say no, but to deny any relevance to a character that has both is just equally biased in the opposite direction.


Point is, Geno is not the most special or necessary inclusion for Smash, but Sakurai is fully aware of his existence and his following, and has given him a nod in more ways than one. That counts for something.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Memes from 2006 shouldn‘t be used to dictate how good the roster is, no matter how much the human brain is wired to like empty completionism

 

[N3ON]

The original "triforce of never-evers" was always Ridley, K. Rool and Geno, but I honestly don't expect people to remember memes from 2008/2009. Even I have too much self respect to be the lorekeeper for ancient /v/ memes so I'm not going to bother elaborating. You guys go ahead and say that the triforce of never evers is complete in this game, I'll allow it.

Why would those three be the big three when Mega Man still wasn't included.

 

[Deleted member]

Memes from 2006 shouldn‘t be used to dictate how good the roster is, no matter how much the human brain is wired to like empty completionism

Yeah, that's why I glare down my nose in cold judgment at how bad the roster is based on the demerits of some of the chosen characters, rather than the ones who aren't here.

 

[Schnee117]

I feel like people went over why this whole "Big 3/4/6/whatever number" thing is forced now just a few days ago.

this relates to Geno because you know darn well that if Geno was fully owned by Nintendo then he’d go on to have a great future. Maybe one day Nintendo will get the rights back but I fully doubt it.

Would he though?
Mario has dozens upon dozens of characters left on the wayside that can't even get into spin-offs. It's only in the past few years that they've actually been digging for those choices after ditching them after the early Wii days

 

[Deleted member]

Why would those three be the big three when Mega Man still wasn't included.

Because believe it or not, there was a time that when Mega Man was brought up in [un]civil conversation, people would write him off as having no merit outside of being a Samus clone.


I was one of them!

 

[Dinoman96]

K. Rool wasn't even that popular back in Brawl, we were all still waiting on Diddy being in.

Take a look at this post I made back in late 2019

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Geno lives and dies by his fanbase so the fact his fanbase is the very special set of circumstances it is today is….interesting.

Like, on one hand the fact that there is a fanbase still dedicated to him is cool and admirable to a high degree but if that fanbase starts being entitled and toxic then the reason of “These people have wanted him for so long” turns into spite for me. It’s not like Geno has any objective merits other than his popularity so the fanbase counts so much, because that fanbase is the only access they have to Geno since he doesn’t appear in any games anymore like the usual requests.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Jesus. That's exactly what they would make him nowadays, probably, a damn Luma.

I mean...what else would he be? He's a tiny sentient star from a realm of stars.

If anything, Lumas are based on him.

There was never a “Big 3” guys.

Of course not.

They're the "Impossible 3".

 

[N3ON]

Because believe it or not, there was a time that when Mega Man was brought up in [un]civil conversation, people would write him off as having no merit outside of being a Samus clone.

If having points raised against you could prohibit you from being popular, all three of Ridley, K. Rool and Geno would be sleeping soundly in the depths of being total afterthoughts.

Plus I thought you were trying to prove how they were "never-evers". Raising the criticism against Mega Man is only going to include him in your special trinity.

 

[Dinoman96]

Geno lives and dies by his fanbase so the fact his fanbase is the very special set of circumstances it is today is….interesting.

The truth is that most Smash fanbases really do live and die by special circumstances.

Like to make things fair, this also applies to Banjo & Kazooie, who didn't really gain any serious traction until Smash 4's DLC. Which makes sense considering that they were owned by a direct competitor post-2002 and obviously no one was dumb enough to rally for an Xbox character at the time...but then the CEO of said competitor said he wanted them in in Smash, and naturally everything snowballed from there.

Also look at Skull Kid, who got serious footing in the fanbase back in the Fall of 2018 all thanks to a certain "leaker" named Loz18...and then look what happened to him once that guy turned out to be a fraud.

 

[Theguy123]

Looks at how Nintendo is treating all the beloved Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi original characters.

You sure about that?

to be fair with that I don’t think Nintendo owned the rights to the Mario and Luigi series which is probably why they never helped alpha dream in their situation.

I remember reading somewhere that Nintendo never owned the rights to the IP which is why alpha dream had so much creativity with the franchise and I remember reading one of alpha dreams interviews where they asked alphadream if they ever had to consult with Nintendo about anything and they straight up said No.

I also remember an article about it the year alphadream went bankrupt. Few months later or so an article appeared saying Nintendo finally got back the rights to the franchise.


as for the paper Mario franchise I’d say that’s handled well. The series is it’s own thing. There’s no need for Nintendo to tamper with it and bring characters over from the franchise.

 

[N3ON]

I feel like people went over why this whole "Big 3/4/6/whatever number" thing is forced now just a few days ago.

I definitely did, I wrote a whole big thing about it that a ton of people agreed with.

Clearly it went to good use.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Having an “impossible 3” isn‘t really a great point of measurement, otherwise Chrom should’ve gotten you jumping from your seats with how many memes he got to age poorly. It’s fun, it’s part of the speculation history that Geno embodies and could almost represent in a way but it’s not a great reason to have him in or to be sour about when he’s not added and a Brawl era meme has aged 1/3rds better

 

[Turtlar]

The only important aspect of “The Big Three” is to not include whichever character you’re actively dumping on. It’s a sacred Smash fan tradition.

 

[slrigeigdew]

Also I just have to say it feels extremely odd to see someone suggesting random SMRPG enemies as Smash characters for a variety of reasons.

Jinx is a meme pick, I'll give you that one, but Culex and Smithy are both memorable bosses with the latter literally being the final boss. I'm just saying Geno is not the "be all end all" SMRPG pick (Not that it matters since we've seen examples of both random enemies and final bosses coming to Smash. Hello )

Also you can't tell me a giant guy with a mallet who can transform his head into a freaking Tank wouldn't be fun to play.

I just wish if they had no intention of actually making a fighter out of Geno, they had done nothing with him.

Just to clarify does this mean you'd be fine with them not giving Geno a spirit and mii costume but you'd be fine with the Mallow spirit?

 

[Deleted member]

K. Rool wasn't even that popular back in Brawl, we were all still waiting on Diddy being in.

Take a look at this post I made back in late 2019

Holy ****, Masked Man was top 10 in the Brawl days? That takes me back... in one of those "single tear" kind of ways.

I mean...what else would he be? He's a tiny sentient star from a realm of stars.

If anything, Lumas are based on him.

There's an entire race of star people from star haven in Paper Mario that it would be a far more accurate statement to say are based off of him. Comparing those little guys and their floaty star gods to squealy, pudgy lumas doesn't sit well with me.

If having points raised against you could prohibit you from being popular, all three of Ridley, K. Rool and Geno would be sleeping soundly in the depths of being total afterthoughts.

Plus I thought you were trying to prove how they were "never-evers". Raising the criticism against Mega Man is only going to include him in your special trinity.

To clarify, bear in mind that we had just come off of Melee where how creative a character's moveset could be was still well within "extremely tame". Few people were being unrealistically imaginative about his potential. "Never-evers" aren't clones, they're characters that people have posted about entirely too much and have at least 80 fan created movesets that would still fit within a very stiff game like Melee.

The only important aspect of “The Big Three” is to not include whichever character you’re actively dumping on. It’s a sacred Smash fan tradition.

I'd argue that it's the opposite. "Never-ever" isn't a term of endearment, or at least, it wasn't always.

 

[TheCJBrine]

to be fair with that I don’t think Nintendo owned the rights to the Mario and Luigi series which is probably why they never helped alpha dream in their situation.

I remember reading somewhere that Nintendo never owned the rights to the IP which is why alpha dream had so much creativity with the franchise and I remember reading one of alpha dreams interviews where they asked alphadream if they ever had to consult with Nintendo about anything and they straight up said No.

I also remember an article about it the year alphadream went bankrupt. Few months later or so an article appeared saying Nintendo finally got back the rights to the franchise.

Nintendo had to own at least some of the rights since it's their characters; they may have just been loose on the creative stuffs (except for the NPCs later on since they turned back into generic Toads except for that one green Toad with the mustache who got the blorbs and of course the more important Toad characters like the doctor/fortune teller dude (Dr. Toadly? I think that was his name...)).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Geno discussion is so tiring since it's always the same things being said.

I will say one thing though, I do think it's a shame that, if the information we know about his situation is correct, he is permanently disconfirmed unless Super Mario RPG's fans can get Nintendo to do something with it.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Ugh, Geno discourse... fine, I'll bite.

I only recently gained some respect for the starbound doll because there are actually a lot of parallels between the kind of storytelling I like in Super Mario RPG. It's a type of plot that reminds me of the main reason I like Kirby 64 so much. I miss the cohesion between multiple game genres developers were able to portray in Mario, which started in RPG and branched off in two separate ways. But if that presumed Mario mandate stretches as far as I think it does, there's no longer a way for Nintendo to allow such a story to be told. It'll just reboot itself to tell the same story over again. It's the exact reason I can't be a true Zelda fan, and if it bled into Mario I can't support it much either. For these reasons, Geno isn't inherently a bad choice to represent a lost age.

However, a bit of me thinks the large support from this character may be a bit... unprecedented. Are people actually aware of who Geno is? He's a star, basically the species Mario has to save in Paper Mario, with the same gregarious and caring nature they have. But that's not what I think most people view him as. As RPG was way behind my time, I never got to experience any of this, and got a false light of Geno with his portrayal in old animations that turned me off of him. Being portrayed as the edgelord that he never was (a common trope in the 2000s for some reason) is the potential problem I have with the fanbase trying to push him into the game. I'm not confident that will end great.

Other than that, I kinda feel like he's run his course. At this rate, in the low chance he gets in, his previous presence with the topic of Smash will cause his inclusion to peter out quicker than fans are hoping. A common fate for a lot of heavily speculated characters, I'm noticing.

 

[N3ON]

Listen, obviously the big whatever is either only a snapshot in time of who's popular, or a revisionist statement usually used to single out characters.

But this "never-ever" business is a whole other level, because how on earth would a character like Villager, who Sakurai himself demolished the expectations of, not be considered a "never-ever". At that point there was no precedent for Sakurai changing his mind. For all we knew, AC just wasn't going to ever get a character because it was too peaceful. And thus the support for Villager and Tom Nook and whoever basically dried up.

So how is K. Rool, a character who was just getting off the ground popularity-wise post-Brawl a never ever, but a character like Villager who literally ceased to be expected not a never ever?

It's all backwards. It's literally picking the popular characters and saying the fanbase thought they were impossible.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

One thing is for sure. Things will be very awkward if Sora doesnt turn out to be the last character especially considering how much coverage that leak has gotten.

Im pretty sure Sora isnt this final character

 

[Dinoman96]

Nintendo always fully owned the rights to Mario & Luigi.

If AlphaDream had any ownership of it, they'd be listed in the copyrights. Like how Geno was also listed as being owned by Square-Enix in the credits.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Im pretty sure Sora isnt this final character

… I think that’s the point he was making.

Nintendo always fully owned the rights to Mario & Luigi.

If AlphaDream had any ownership of it, they'd be listed in the copyrights. Like how Geno was also listed as being owned by Square-Enix in the credits.

Pity he didn’t show up in the remake. Then again whispers of a SMRPG remake would just be out in the open, knowing this fanbase.

 

[Deleted member]

Jinx is a meme pick, I'll give you that one, but Culex and Smithy are both memorable bosses with the latter literally being the final boss. I'm just saying Geno is not the "be all end all" SMRPG pick (Not that it matters since we've seen examples of both random enemies and final bosses coming to Smash. Hello )

Also you can't tell me a giant guy with a mallet who can transform his head into a freaking Tank wouldn't be fun to play.
View attachment 332378

Just to clarify does this mean you'd be fine with them not giving Geno a spirit and mii costume but you'd be fine with the Mallow spirit?

I mean, Piranha Plant genuinely feels like we were being spit on and there's no way the Waluigi or Toad fanbases don't feel exactly the same.

And yeah, I'd have been fine with Mallow and them just ignoring Geno. There's not really a catalog of nearly 20 years of Mallow support out there. Mallow is a great way of saying "hey Mario RPG was cool" but Geno crosses a line into "hey **** your character you're never getting him lmao"

Listen, obviously the big whatever is either only a snapshot in time of who's popular, or a revisionist statement usually used to single out characters.

But this "never-ever" business is a whole other level, because how on earth would a character like Villager, who Sakurai himself demolished the expectations of, not be considered a "never-ever". At that point there was no precedent for Sakurai changing his mind. For all we know, AC just wasn't going to ever get a character because it was too peaceful. And thus the support for Villager and Tom Nook and whoever basically dried up.

So how is K. Rool, a character who was just getting off the ground popularity-wise post-Brawl a never ever, but a character like Villager who literally ceased to be expected not a never ever?

It's all backwards. It's literally picking the popular characters and saying the fanbase thought they were impossible.

I need to turn your attention to how I said it wasn't a term of endearment. It's a ****post about how [hyped up character] isn't going to make it in for [reasons]. We happen to live in a timeline where the hyped up characters who weren't going to make it in did, and now "never-ever" has become something else. There's probably nuance that you're not picking up on here, like, this is "cultural" stuff from a board known for being an outright ****hole, and I don't really blame you for not understanding it fully if you just don't get it. It's all just been about being taunted for several years straight and this one group of dogs have just been waiting for their day and we're going to remain on that triforce of never evers, I guess with Isaac and ****in'... Krystal?