Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[SMAASH! Puppy]

iirc sakurai also said sm4sh wouldnt have dlc and to not expect alot of newcomers in ult

He didn't say they wouldn't, he just said they weren't currently making any, and they'd think about it closer to the game's release.

 

[Noipoi]

I do wonder, where does the "Sakurai is a troll" mindset even comes from? Legit the only time I remember him "trolling" was when he said in a Smash 4 direct something like "unfortunately Zero suit samus isn't coming back... no I'm only kidding" but the joke lasted for 2 seconds. Sometimes he makes jokes in direct (I think Sakurai is actually very funny especially in the Sakurai presents with Ultimate dlc), but that's not really "trolling".

Sakurai makes jokes, he likes to tease us, but he always takes it back like two seconds after.

He has never ever said one thing only to reveal it was a trick two years later.

 

[Shroob]

I read through this whole exchange. Interesting how this comes up while I'm familiarizing myself with more of the site and its functions. Obviously I wasn't around when all this mayhem unfolded, but I want to know more about this environment at the time. Certain people were being harassed over thinking the leak wasn't real? What kind of things were being posted on these public profiles? Which archived topics are worth combing through?

I realize that curiosity may sound somewhat morbid to you, but I find amusement in dissecting this sort of drama, if only to function as a kind of internet history lesson of sorts.

The forum basically became another /v/. Lots of accounts whose sole purpose was to dunk on people who didn't think the leak was real, and who all up and vanished after the November presentation.


This wasn't limited to this board. Gamefaqs, reddit, twitter, youtube, etc, the toxicity was everywhere.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

It is an interesting trend that we've never had an E3 revealed newcomer(s) directly followed up by a massively bigger third-party character in the following Smash/Nintendo Direct. For example:

followed by , a first -party character
followed by , two first party characters
, followed by , who like BK are also similarly more "low key" third party characters.

Of course, these aren't actual rules, but it would be interesting to see if this pattern breaks now for this presentation. Personally, I still think a more "low key" third-party character is most likely to be revealed in October, but who knows.

 

[Schnee117]

I do wonder, where does the "Sakurai is a troll" mindset even comes from? Legit the only time I remember him "trolling" was when he said in a Smash 4 direct something like "unfortunately Zero suit samus isn't coming back... no I'm only kidding" but the joke lasted for 2 seconds. Sometimes he makes jokes in direct (I think Sakurai is actually very funny especially in the Sakurai presents with Ultimate dlc), but that's not really "trolling".

Smash fans don't understand the concept of opinions and plans changing.

"I think Villager is too peaceful" was said in Brawl but obviously his opinion changed such that that wasn't an issue in 4

"Dlc not being planned for 4" was also true, he wanted to finish the games first.

"There won't be many newcomers" also holds true because it's in regard to Ultimate's base game, which only added 11 characters

People just ascribe a bunch of stuff to him that he's never actually said or it gets manipulated to suit the narrative of him being a troll

 

[Shroob]

I remember back in March where Sakurai first said "This is the end of the DLC"


And how people were trying to say "Oh, no, he's just trolling" or "Nintendo won't allow it to end, it's too profitable"


And with every interview or presentation, said belief slowly started to wane.



There's still some holdouts who think the "FINAL Smash Presentation" isn't the end, but I'd wager most have acknowledged that this is all she wrote.

 

[SKX31]

There’s the people who like it competitively.

The people who like it for it’s funny design and lore inspirations (me)

And the people who like it because [hyperlink blocked]

It does help that the Smash incarnation sells the fantasy of it being a heel wrestler pretty well. Sure, one of the slowest characters, but has a lot of good CQC options and can perform WWE-esque murder in the right circumstances. Revenge is enough of a factor that it has to be played around: a couple good reads suddenly results in 50 %. It also helps that Revenge's been buffed twice - reducing its endlag by quite a bit and increasing its damage multiplier.

Also has some really crunchy sound effects to really make the opponent feel they're being hit by a truck. Not just Alolan Whip but also D-Smash and B-Throw are good examples of "AS GOD IS MY WITNESS, (S)HE IS BROKEN IN HALF" moves.

Chunky Kong might be the funniest because of how mundane it was and all the memes that followed. Grinch was definitely the most toxic. But now I am just ready for it all to be over.

View attachment 331983



The truth is out there.

Plot twist: Fred Armisen is the leaker behind that. It's how he landed the movie role.

I do wonder, where does the "Sakurai is a troll" mindset even comes from? Legit the only time I remember him "trolling" was when he said in a Smash 4 direct something like "unfortunately Zero suit samus isn't coming back... no I'm only kidding" but the joke lasted for 2 seconds. Sometimes he makes jokes in direct (I think Sakurai is actually very funny especially in the Sakurai presents with Ultimate dlc), but that's not really "trolling".

Denial.

He just rides a different train of thought than most fans.

Think it has also partly to do with stuff like Ridley's shadow, his Byleth hand signature meaning 17 in binary when most people would've never guessed that etc. Those were misinterpreted as "troll moves" alongside statements like "No DLC planned for 4" and "There won't be many newcomers".

 

[Schnee117]

If Sakurai was actually what fans made him out to be, he'd be irl Reverse Flash

If you want an actual troll that works on fighting games I can point you to Ed Boon

 

[Shroob]

If Sakurai was actually what fans made him out to be, he'd be irl Reverse Flash

If you want an actual troll that works on fighting games I can point you to Ed Boon

REMEMBER ME, SMASHBOARDS?
IT WAS ME WHO MADE THE GRINCH LEAK TO SET YOUR EXPECTATIONS SKY HIGH ONLY TO SINK THEM
I STOLE A MAN'S IDENTITY
I'M A WANTED MAN IN FRANCE

 

[Noipoi]

Sakurai is constanly playing 8D hyper cross-dimensional holo-chess just so he can surprise some nerds with the Balloon Fight Kid.

 

[subterrestrial]

Sakurai is constanly playing 8D hyper cross-dimensional holo-chess just so he can surprise some nerds with the Balloon Fight Kid.

we unironically need balloon fighter on the roster

 

[PLATINUM7]

I remember back in March where Sakurai first said "This is the end of the DLC"


And how people were trying to say "Oh, no, he's just trolling" or "Nintendo won't allow it to end, it's too profitable"


And with every interview or presentation, said belief slowly started to wane.



There's still some holdouts who think the "FINAL Smash Presentation" isn't the end, but I'd wager most have acknowledged that this is all she wrote.

Same thing happened with Smash 4. People kept holding out the FINAL Smash presentation wouldn't be the end of it.

 

[N3ON]

Anything relating to any “Big Three”, “Big Four”, “Last Brawl Request” of speculation has always been imbued with a special sort of revisionism, mostly used to prop up a character as a necessity to appeal to completionists. Geno fans have definitely made use of the early deconfirmation of most Brawl big hitters to propagate their position as last man standing. Personally, I only remember the Elite 4 of Smash 4 featuring Mega Man, Ridley, K. Rool, Palutena and later Little Mac if I recall correctly, with Mewtwo as champ. Others dipped in-and-out and I can’t doubt the popularity of certain characters but yeah anything related to the argument “Last X of Y not in Smash” is no doubt taking a few shortcuts here and there, and might rewrite history when it comes to cutting that down to a specific “Big insert rhetorically viable number”

This one does my head in because it's so clearly not the case for anyone who was around for the eras actually being referenced. Not only do people omit the popular characters we did actually get beforehand, as if the fanbase was never listened to prior to Ridley, but at most, the "big whatever" is just a snapshot of the discourse at any given time. You can't genuinely look back and elevate four and just four characters as "the popular ones" in terms of Smash. There have been so many more than four, and those who reside at the top constantly fluctuate. More over, it often takes more than a single game for characters like that to get in.

In fact, there was never a time Ridley, K. Rool, Geno and Banjo (the newer stock quartet) were simultaneously and exclusively the four most popular. Like you said, it's used to construct a narrative, and then parroted either by people who want to proliferate that narrative, or those who weren't actually there and got taken for a ride with a nice sounding story.

Tied to that is calling these characters "impossible". Characters that are thought to be impossible don't accrue popularity to any impressive extent, let alone enough to also be speciously considered the peak of the fanbase in terms of demand. If you went into the K. Rool thread at any time prior to his inclusion and said "he's impossible", do you think people would've agreed with you?

And yeah, no, Geno is also not the last man standing. There have got to be at least like a half dozen to dozen characters from the Brawl era that still have or will have notable popularity once everything resets.

 

[ryuryunonoroi]

The forum basically became another /v/. Lots of accounts whose sole purpose was to dunk on people who didn't think the leak was real, and who all up and vanished after the November presentation.


This wasn't limited to this board. Gamefaqs, reddit, twitter, youtube, etc, the toxicity was everywhere.

So mainly throwaway accounts with nothing to contribute other than noise. Well, at least that sort of mess is easy to clean up.

I do wonder, where does the "Sakurai is a troll" mindset even comes from? Legit the only time I remember him "trolling" was when he said in a Smash 4 direct something like "unfortunately Zero suit samus isn't coming back... no I'm only kidding" but the joke lasted for 2 seconds. Sometimes he makes jokes in direct (I think Sakurai is actually very funny especially in the Sakurai presents with Ultimate dlc), but that's not really "trolling".

Anyone is a troll if you meme it hard enough.

 

[Shroob]

So mainly throwaway accounts with nothing to contribute other than noise. Well, at least that sort of mess is easy to clean up.



Anyone is a troll if you meme it hard enough.

Issue is, like I said though, was this wasn't an isolated case to this forum. Like, anywhere between 75-80% of people who took active discussion in Smash speculation believed it according to various held polls, and it was everywhere. Grinch leak gave a voice to a less than desirable crowd.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

And yeah, no, Geno is also not the last man standing. There have got to be at least like a half dozen to dozen characters from the Brawl era that still have or will have notable popularity once everything resets.

Like our good friend Isaac.

 

[Sucumbio]

Speaking off leaks Today I shall remind the people that caccomallow still technically isn’t debunked.

yes I’m prepared for the backlash. Truth hurts

Alright... I'll bite.

What is the cocomallow leak and why do some posters here hate even seeing it mentioned?

 

[kylexv]

People don't really realize that Geno wasn't really that popular of a pick during Smash 4 speculation and he was much more popular during Brawl and Ultimate. His resurgence when Ultimate came around was because he got the Mii costume at the end of Smash 4 for the most part.

 

[Shroob]

Alright... I'll bite.

What is the cocomallow leak and why do some posters here hate even seeing it mentioned?

Very tl;dr version


Before Terry's presentation was shown off, video surfaced on 4chan of a supposed playtester playing a debug mode version of Smash. It featured Ken, and 2 Mii Fighters, one wearing a Cacodemon hat, and one with a Mallow hat.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Very tl;dr version


Before Terry's presentation was shown off, video surfaced on 4chan of a supposed playtester playing a debug mode version of Smash. It featured Ken, and 2 Mii Fighters, one wearing a Cacodemon hat, and one with a Mallow hat.

Should also mention it used the DQ stage, it didn’t bother showing a new one

 

[N3ON]

Like our good friend Isaac.

Very much like our good friend Isaac, who conspicuously is rarely included on lists like that despite just as frequently being among the most popular, and at one time or another being more popular than any of the four. Around Dark Dawn he was the most requested character. During the ballot he was somewhere in the top three. After the August Direct until the November Direct he was probably again in the top three. And his popularity dates back to the initial GS games.

And even if he's not right at the top, for big chunks of the last decade he's floated around in the top ten.

Never seems to get the nod, though.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Alright... I'll bite.

What is the cocomallow leak and why do some posters here hate even seeing it mentioned?

A mod of a Cacodemon and Mallow hats that was passed off as a leak that a bunch of people wanted to believe because it (probably) meant Geno and the Doom Slayer were fighters...This was at least a year and a half ago, and for a huge chunk of time people were adamant that it was still possibly real even though it meant that they would have been working on wave 5, then 6, then 7, and so on when they were only on wave 3.

Very much like our good friend Isaac, who conspicuously is rarely included on lists like that despite just as frequently being among the most popular, and at one time or another being more popular than any of the four. Around Dark Dawn he was the most requested character. During the ballot he was somewhere in the top three. After the August Direct until the November Direct he was probably again in the top three. And his popularity dates back to the initial GS games.

And even if he's not right at the top, for big chunks of the last decade he's floated around in the top ten.

Never seems to get the nod, though.

That's because he's not popular.

I mean look at all these people. Not talking about him.

 

[N3ON]

That's because he's not popular.

I mean look at all these people. Not talking about him.

Of course. Right now the big four would be Crash, Chief, Sora and maybe that Shimmy Gammy Tensy Guy.

 

[Schnee117]

A mod of a Cacodemon and Mallow hats that was passed off as a leak that a bunch of people wanted to believe because it (probably) meant Geno and the Doom Slayer were fighters...This was at least a year and a half ago, and for a huge chunk of time people were adamant that it was still possibly real even though it meant that they would have been working on wave 5, then 6, then 7, and so on when they were only on wave 3.


That's because he's not popular.

I mean look at all these people. Not talking about him.

We're actually almost exactly a month off of it being two years since it first surfaced.

Time sure flies huh

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

We're actually almost exactly a month off of it being two years since it first surfaced.

Time sure flies huh

Man I almost put two years but then I thought "...nah it can't have been that long". I wasn't expecting the statement to be that close to being incorrect.

It's funny because the Doom Slayer/KOS-MOS debates feel like they happened just yesterday.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I do wonder, where does the "Sakurai is a troll" mindset even comes from? Legit the only time I remember him "trolling" was when he said in a Smash 4 direct something like "unfortunately Zero suit samus isn't coming back... no I'm only kidding" but the joke lasted for 2 seconds. Sometimes he makes jokes in direct (I think Sakurai is actually very funny especially in the Sakurai presents with Ultimate dlc), but that's not really "trolling".

He's very secretive about his job because he pretty much needs to be. And he definitely has a sense of humor. So I guess people just combined both traits and exaggerated them a bit to turn him into a kind of trickster genius. That's my best answer, it's an interesting question though because you're totally right that it doesn't really check out with reality.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Very much like our good friend Isaac, who conspicuously is rarely included on lists like that despite just as frequently being among the most popular, and at one time or another being more popular than any of the four. Around Dark Dawn he was the most requested character. During the ballot he was somewhere in the top three. After the August Direct until the November Direct he was probably again in the top three. And his popularity dates back to the initial GS games.

And even if he's not right at the top, for big chunks of the last decade he's floated around in the top ten.

Never seems to get the nod, though.

Yup. But I'd also add in that there is a huge difference between not being vocally requested for Smash at a given time and not being wanted for Smash. Skull Kid didn't see a rise in requests in 2018 just because of bandwagoning, but because he was always the kind of character people would have happily said "he'd be great in Smash" if they genuinely believed he had a decent chance. Which is why ending on him as a character wouldn't be disappointing to most people outside of the ones that would have preferred other Zelda characters.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I actually do have a question also

-What do you think is the biggest example of Revisionist History in Smash Speculation?

A few come to mind.

-"K.Rool was a super popular request for Brawl." He wasn't unpopular but he was nowhere near the top of the food chain. Diddy was the super popular one. K.Rool's popularity didn't start to rise until Diddy was secured and didn't explode until after Brawl. He also wasn't a popular request for Melee either. Again, Diddy Kong existed.

-"Geno was a popular request for Smash 4." No he wasn't. Geno's popularity plummeted after Brawl and was very low key until the costume. Geno was even seen as some strange Brawl era oddity back then. His fanbase never disappeared but it greatly diminished in size.

-"Krystal was never popular." Krystal was incredibly popular in the Brawl and Smash 4 era. She probably would have been popular in the Ultimate era if she wasn't AT'd right away. I feel like the only reason this gets repeated is due to Wolf winning the great Krystal vs Wolf wars. If you want context it was like Banjo vs Steve, but with more furry fan art. Twas bad.

-"Lucario wasn't popular at the time of inclusion." Lucario was incredibly popular back then. That was the height of his popularity and people were super excited back then. His gameplay may have soured some people but he was a popular "no-brainer" inclusion at the time.

And perhaps the big one...

-"Smash 4 didn't listen to the community and didn't include any popular requests (base game)."

This one gets me. This is either mostly said by people complaining that they didn't get what they wanted, or people who didn't understand the community back then. Smash 4 gave us Mega Man, Little Mac and Palutena, the three of whom topped every poll they were included in (along with K.Rool, Ridley and Mewtwo). It also gave us characters like Shulk, Bowser Jr. and Pac-Man who had large notable fanbases. Even then, many of the unexpected characters like Villager, Robin, Rosalina and Greninja got massive praise when they were included. The only newcomers that weren't initially praised were Wii Fit Trainer, Mii Fighters, Duck Hunt, Dark Pit and Lucina, but they quickly earned fans as well.

They included a lot of popular requests in Smash 4. The only missing members of the rotating cast that was the Smashboards Elite Four, were K.Rool and Ridley. I love K Rool and Ridley and was ecstatic to have them in Ultimate, but seeing people say that those two inclusions were the only time since Brawl that Nintendo listened to fans was lowkey infuriating.

They've always been listening and trying to please fans. We just don't get everything all at once. Ultimate's roster would look naked without a lot of Smash 4's inclusions.

 

[ryuryunonoroi]

Speaking off leaks Today I shall remind the people that caccomallow still technically isn’t debunked.

yes I’m prepared for the backlash. Truth hurts

Looks like it was debunked very early last year.

https://www.nintendoenthusiast.com/...r-wants-doom-slayer-in-smash-nintendo-doesnt/

 

[N3ON]

Yup. But I'd also add in that there is a huge difference between not being vocally requested for Smash at a given time and not being wanted for Smash. Skull Kid didn't see a rise in requests in 2018 just because of bandwagoning, but because he was always the kind of character people would have happily said "he'd be great in Smash" if they genuinely believed he had a decent chance. Which is why ending on him as a character wouldn't be disappointing to most people outside of the ones that would have preferred other Zelda characters.

Skull Kid has singularly strange popularity because it's very infrequent but when it happens it's very strong. It usually happens once every several years for a few months and then quickly subsides again. It's like a horde of locusts. If it coincided with a ballot it'd be interesting.

At least, that's how I remember it.

 

[MasterCheef]

we unironically need balloon fighter on the roster

we already basically have balloon fighter. Villager and Isabelle do exactly what balloon fighter did.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

-"Lucario wasn't popular at the time of inclusion." Lucario was incredibly popular back then. That was the height if his popularity and people were super excited back then. His gameplay may have soured some people but he was a popular "no-brainer" inclusion at the time.

Lucario does have a pretty polarizing game design.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Lucario does have a pretty polarizing game design.

I don't think Lucario is polarizing so much as he's annoying to everyone (except for maybe characters that tend to K.O. off of stray hits), which is arguably worse.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

Man I almost put two years but then I thought "...nah it can't have been that long". I wasn't expecting the statement to be that close to being incorrect.

It's funny because the Doom Slayer/KOS-MOS debates feel like they happened just yesterday.

Which reminds me! No offense to his fans of course, but even before 2019 why did people see Doom Slayer as inevitable? Why were other Bethesda characters like Dragonborn never ever talked about? Like EVER? Is it just due to a lack of overlap? He didn't get much discussion even when his Mii happened...

Also I'm glad the KOS-MOS debates are dead and buried.

Lucario does have a pretty polarizing game design.

Probably due to his general lack of faithfulness to Pokemon, for the most part he's basically a Smash OC.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Which reminds me! No offense to his fans of course, but even before 2019 why did people see Doom Slayer as inevitable? Why were other Bethesda characters like Dragonborn never ever talked about? Like EVER? Is it just due to a lack of overlap? He didn't get much discussion even when his Mii happened...

I think this can be answered in four words: CacoMallow and Doom Eternal.

Oh wait that's three...right?

 

[GolisoPower]

Which reminds me! No offense to his fans of course, but even before 2019 why did people see Doom Slayer as inevitable? Why were other Bethesda characters like Dragonborn never ever talked about? Like EVER? Is it just due to a lack of overlap? He didn't get much discussion even when his Mii happened...

I think mainly it was because Doom 2016 got announced for Switch and turned out to be really great for all the sacrifices it had to make to get it running crisply. Not to mention, the fact that at the time people saw Smash Bros as a "celebration of gaming as a whole" and thought that since Doom was so influential for FPS's that he should definitely get a spot in. Can't say much about Dovahkiin, though.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Lucario does have a pretty polarizing game design.

I know. I said that.

Skull Kid has singularly strange popularity because it's very infrequent but when it happens it's very strong. It usually happens once every several years for a few months and then quickly subsides again. It's like a horde of locusts. If it coincided with a ballot it'd be interesting.

At least, that's how I remember it.

I feel like Skull Kid is like the first party version of Cloud.

Lots of popularity in the general fandom, but is generally seen as impossible so they aren't as loud in their support.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I know. I said that.



I feel like Skull Kid is like the first party version of Cloud.

Lots of popularity in the general fandom, but is generally seen as impossible so they aren't as loud in their support.

I'd compare him more to Banjo & Kazooie if anything.

 

[subterrestrial]

we already basically have balloon fighter. Villager and Isabelle do exactly what balloon fighter did.

we already basically have master chief. Samus and Megaman do exactly what master chief did.

 

[N3ON]

-"Lucario wasn't popular at the time of inclusion." Lucario was incredibly popular back then. That was the height if his popularity and people were super excited back then. His gameplay may have soured some people but he was a popular "no-brainer" inclusion at the time.

Yeah Lucario was like if you took all the energy expended debating which Pokemon character would get chosen and then just dedicated all of it behind a single candidate. He basically had the popularity of an uncontested Pokemon addition. Which is pretty popular.

Not to say he was the only considered candidate, but choices like Deoxys got deconfirmed early, Blaziken was stunted due to people not thinking we'd get solo starters, and then there were the leftovers of Meowth and such. But it was pretty decisively in Lucario's favour, and I agree that people forget that.

I also agree with the other ones, it's a good list.