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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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SMAASH! Puppy

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To explain my opinions on Hero further, I like him in concept, but I always put him down fairly quickly every time I play as him, and I think that's largely due to the clunky implementation of Command Selection.

Problem 1: Ew Reading.
Hero has to stand back pretty far in order to even use Command Selection since the time it takes to read "Thwack, Kamikaze, Sizz, Hocus Pocus" (for example) is long enough that you would otherwise get hit on word 2. I think this is a problem because Command Selection was deintended to act similarly to Faust's What Could this Be? in that it causes split second decisions based on the outcome, but the time it takes to read 4 names, recall what they do (which I think takes time even if you are already aware of what they do), and decide which one to pick isn't exactly a split second. This is OK to some extent since Command Selection is more volatile, and thus, potentially more powerful than What Could this Be?, but I still think using this move gets you smacked more often than it should, especially since it's compounded by

Problem 2: My Eyes are Down Here...
The fact that the menu is on Hero's UI means that you really have to take your focus off of the match in order to read your spell list. This means that you can't know what your opponent is doing while you're reading, and as a direct consequence, you have to then look up as your done reading in order to know if any of your attack spells would be helpful, further increasing the amount of computing time before you let a spell fly. There's also

Problem 3: Yo No Bilingual
but this doesn't affect me personally, and it kind of explains itself, so I can't really add anything to that. Similarly,

Solutions:
My solutions are things people have already stated. Giving each spell unique icons would allow players to distinguish the spells quicker, and color coding them by type would be even better. A suggestion I haven't really seen much of would be to also put a menu on top of Hero so you aren't forced to look down at the UI. Thinking about it more, I wouldn't have the new menu placement replace the old because...well let's just say that this would be everyone who wanted to know what's on the menu in an 8-Player match on The Great Cave Offensive:
1632693154604.png
Having it both overlayed on top of Hero himself as well as on the UI would be a good idea though since you get a version you can see when the camera is zoomed way out as well as a version that you can look at while still keeping track of your opponent. I'm extremely confident that both solutions implemented together would make the character feel 50% less clunky if not more.

Positives: 'Cuz I Don't Hate This Character, Not by a Long Shot
I like how Hero portrays the dynamic of traditional turn based RPG combat. His normal attacks aren't great, but they're entirely necessary to get through more than one fight. On the flip side, his Special Moves (spells) are powerful, but if you spam them too much, you're gonna be extremely vulnerable when you run out of magic. So when fighting as Hero, you have to do a mix of both to stay alive, and I think that makes the character more interesting overall. Also, learning all of the spell names was a treat, especially in other languages. I still can't get over the fact that Whack and Thwack are also known as Kill and Uberkill. lol

Also EAT MY MAGIC BURST AAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!

P.S. Mr. Sugiyama, can we get Dragon Quest music in Super Smash Bros. that's actually good? No? Alright...
 

Shroob

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Let's not kid ourselves, whoever gets in is going to cause a ton of toxicity in the community, especially since this is the last character.



Jonesey, a Pokemon, or a 9th Fire Emblem character are just the nuclear option.



And I wanna watch everything melt. :4pacman:
 

Sigran101

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This is a rant nobody asked for, but I really hate it when people say "X character is not cool" or "X character has no source material" Do people not realize how many characters and franchise people have absolutely fallen in love for because of Smash? Like I'm sure if Sakurai approached someone and told them that he was adding Captain Falcon they would have said "Who is that? That's not a cool character" yet all of these years people love Captain Falcon. Sakurai even somehow made people tolerate characters like Byleth. He turned the whole entire Fire Emblem franchise into a franchise that is sucessful and liked by a lot of people.

"Source material" is an argument I hate even more because Captain Falcon was literally a racecar driver with no actual moves in his game, yet he still has a cool moveset. Wii Fit Trainer is a character that stares at you and gives you exercise instructions while telling you how overweight you are, but they have a full moveset in Smash. It's as if people think Sakurai is some uncreative hack who can't make a moveset without copy and pasting from their games despite the fact that he literally pioneered an entire new genre of fighting games and created Kirby which is a very unique platforming game. He looks at games for inspiration a lot, but it's not like he's unable to make a moveset without any.
It's less that people don't think it's possible and more that people don't like movesets where characters are given random martial arts or summon random **** from their games. Wii Fit gets a pass because she uses her yoga poses as attacks which is unique and fits, and Falcon gets a pass simply for being one of the most stylish characters in video games. But imo if Fox was introduced to smash now with his current moveset a lot of people would be annoyed.

For the best example of this look at Sandbag in super smash flash. It's entire moveset is just flailing around. Its up special is just moving upwards, and its side special is just moving sideways. It works perfectly fine as a character, but most would say that it barely counts as a moveset and would be really annoyed if it got into real smash.

It's not that Sakurai couldn't think of anything, it's just that for some characters, not enough source material exists to make what people would consider a passable moveset. Like let's say hypothetically people wanted a tuft of grass from the legend of Zelda to be playable. That's an extreme, I know. But do you think Sakurai could make a moveset for grass that would satisfy people? It doesn't make Saurai an "uncreative hack" if he can't make an interesting moveset for literally anything.
 

ForsakenM

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Has everyone here already written off and thrown away that dumb music 4chan crap?

I hope no one here believes in that.
 

ForsakenM

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Let's not kid ourselves, whoever gets in is going to cause a ton of toxicity in the community, especially since this is the last character.



Jonesey, a Pokemon, or a 9th Fire Emblem character are just the nuclear option.



And I wanna watch everything melt. :4pacman:
Once again, this wouldn't have been a problem if Sakurai was able to grant requests as early as Melee or Brawl. Characters we just got in Ultimate could have easily been in by now, making room for more fan requests for each other game in the franchise.

However, I think you ae going a bit far, as there are clearly character choices that would offer very little toxicity, or at least the minimum amount.
 

Dan Quixote

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Has everyone here already written off and thrown away that dumb music 4chan crap?

I hope no one here believes in that.
What is there to even write off? It's not solid proof that they're telling the truth and we have no solid proof that the second post is even from the same person. This is the nature of 4chan lol, no matter how much you believe or disbelieve in a leak like that, you aren't certain and Sora's already super popular and so you're right back where you started. Leaks like these don't give a lot to discuss about for a long time.
 

ForsakenM

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Its been tossed in the bin.

Still hilarious to me the leaker perfectly nailed October 5th then backtracked to September.
Wait, they backtracked? I didn't see that. Just another reason to prove this is fake.

I mean, imagine thinking Sakurai would wait until July of this year to get presentation music for a character chosen in late 2019.

How inept do people think he is?
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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and also I don't want to study for my physics midterm AHHHHHHHH
Just remember that inertia is a property of matter and you'll be OK. :4pacman:

I blame Bill Nye for my the fact that I knew what inertia was, but when asked what inertia was all I could tell you was that it's a property of matter until my junior or senior year of high school.

Oooor... Wait a sec... that'd mean stuff from '79 and before would be eligible too...



No one would see this AT upgrade (?) coming. :4pacman:
I honestly have no idea what the legalities surrounding Pong are, but I assume since the Assist Trophy is called Color TV-Game 15, it's probably owned by someone...
 

Shroob

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Once again, this wouldn't have been a problem if Sakurai was able to grant requests as early as Melee or Brawl. Characters we just got in Ultimate could have easily been in by now, making room for more fan requests for each other game in the franchise.

However, I think you ae going a bit far, as there are clearly character choices that would offer very little toxicity, or at least the minimum amount.
The rule of reality is you can't please everyone.


I remember when Banjo was revealed that despite a near universal amount of people being happy he got in, there were still countless people upset that a "Scrimblo" got in(Albeit, such a term didn't exist at the time but you get my point).



Even if 95% of people are happy to neutral on something, the 5% will let their opinion be heard, because the smallest dog barks the loudest.
 
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Dan Quixote

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I honestly have no idea what the legalities surrounding Pong are, but I assume since the Assist Trophy is called Color TV-Game 15, it's probably owned by someone...
Color TV-Game 15 was a Nintendo-made Pong clone. You plug it into your TV and move a dial instead of using a ball like the arcade. If you want a treat, look up the INSANE amount of toy companies that made Pong clone consoles in the 70s. Seriously it was one of the most overwhelming fads in gaming history, Nintendo was NOT alone in that.
 

GolisoPower

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Can I bring something up real quick?

So remember how back in Mr. Sakurai Presents "Byleth", that when Fighters Pass Vol. 2 was revealed, there seemed to be more emphasis on Challenger Pack 11 existing? Now Occam's razor makes me think there's emphasis on it only to say "surprise, everyone gets one fighter more than Fighters Pass Vol. 1," but the coffee-fueled insomniac conspiracy theorist inside me is saying that this fighter might be a very big deal.

Now I don't claim to know how Sakurai thinks or how far and well he plans ahead with these kinds of things, but if I'm being honest, that little detail seems to stick out now more than ever for some reason. Whoever this fighter might be, despite Smash's penchant for capping off Smash support with low-key characters, it seems to be one Sakurai, or Nintendo, seems to think is rather special in comparison to others.

Again, could be looking too deep into it. Just a brain-child I had to get out here.
 

3BitSaurus

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Let's not kid ourselves, whoever gets in is going to cause a ton of toxicity in the community, especially since this is the last character.



Jonesey, a Pokemon, or a 9th Fire Emblem character are just the nuclear option.



And I wanna watch everything melt. :4pacman:
What if it's a LoL rep? Will you watch yourself melt? :4pacman:

Real talk, Jonesy is the only character I actively don't want. I don't care about Fortnite's fanbase or Epic, I just... don't like Fortnite as a game XD.
 

Will

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Can I bring something up real quick?

So remember how back in Mr. Sakurai Presents "Byleth", that when Fighters Pass Vol. 2 was revealed, there seemed to be more emphasis on Challenger Pack 11 existing? Now Occam's razor makes me think there's emphasis on it only to say "surprise, everyone gets one fighter more than Fighters Pass Vol. 1," but the coffee-fueled insomniac conspiracy theorist inside me is saying that this fighter might be a very big deal.

Now I don't claim to know how Sakurai thinks or how far and well he plans ahead with these kinds of things, but if I'm being honest, that little detail seems to stick out now more than ever for some reason. Whoever this fighter might be, despite Smash's penchant for capping off Smash support with low-key characters, it seems to be one Sakurai, or Nintendo, seems to think is rather special in comparison to others.

Again, could be looking too deep into it. Just a brain-child I had to get out here.
So you're saying that if it's a character that's supposedly not hype, Nintendo would actually not hype it up as much as they can to bring as much attention and mystery to Super Smash Bros. as possible and make it talk of the town for weeks? Or that no matter who it is, Nintendo will treat it as they're doing it now to achieve such an EZ strategy?
 

N3ON

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Once again, this wouldn't have been a problem if Sakurai was able to grant requests as early as Melee or Brawl. Characters we just got in Ultimate could have easily been in by now, making room for more fan requests for each other game in the franchise.

However, I think you ae going a bit far, as there are clearly character choices that would offer very little toxicity, or at least the minimum amount.
...the only characters we got this time that were heavily requested during those prior periods of Melee and Brawl were Ridley and Banjo. Even if feasibility had never posed a problem to Sakurai and Banjo had never left Nintendo, and both got in during, let's say, Brawl, that wouldn't have fundamentally altered the fabric of what was to follow.

The last character is always going to be under fire, and, unless there were fewer FE characters and promotional Pokemon, those options would always be contentious. And those are the kind of inclusions which seem mandated by what's new, so it doesn't even come down to what Sakurai wants, nor could you "get it out of the way" in a previous title.

More over, we have got popular requests since Melee. Bowser, Peach, Mewtwo, Ganondorf, Wario, Diddy, Dedede, Meta-Knight, Pit, Wolf, Palutena, Little Mac, Mewtwo again, and, oh yeah, let's not forget Sonic and Mega Man, were all popular requests we got before Ultimate. You're only focusing on the ones that didn't make it.
 

Knight Dude

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Honestly this is the curse of any other non-Sonic additional third-party character getting in

Alucard is one of my most wanted characters but the monkey's paw that'd come with his inclusion is that a second Sonic rep would be pushed even more as Having To Happen, and I for one am not ready for that
As the local Mega Man Shill tm, **** 'em.

You can't please everyone. And Castlevaina is just as deserving of getting another character as Sonic or any third party franchise.
 

GolisoPower

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So you're saying that if it's a character that's supposedly not hype, Nintendo would actually not hype it up as much as they can to bring as much attention and mystery to Super Smash Bros. as possible and make it talk of the town for weeks? Or that no matter who it is, Nintendo will treat it as they're doing it now to achieve such an EZ strategy?
More along the lines of, "Nintendo and Sakurai know this is gonna be the last Smash character for a good long time, so they might as well go out with a decent bang despite previous instances".
 

Rie Sonomura

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More along the lines of, "Nintendo and Sakurai know this is gonna be the last Smash character for a good long time, so they might as well go out with a decent bang despite previous instances".
Who do you think fits that criteria?
 

Guynamednelson

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Color TV-Game 15 was a Nintendo-made Pong clone. You plug it into your TV and move a dial instead of using a ball like the arcade. If you want a treat, look up the INSANE amount of toy companies that made Pong clone consoles in the 70s. Seriously it was one of the most overwhelming fads in gaming history, Nintendo was NOT alone in that.
There's a reason the AVGN dedicated a whole episode to them.
 

Will

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Who do you think fits that criteria?
It'd have to be someone on the caliber of Sonic, Snake, Cloud, and Steve. However, I find that a lot of different than ones like Ridley, K. Rool, or any other long-awaited fan want. I'm feeling something like Master Chief, Dovakiin, or some larger icon of gaming for their respective genre.
 
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GalacticPetey

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Since people are doing some DLC retrospectives, I'll throw my hat in the ring. I'll need to do some catch up though.

PIRANHA PLANT:
Oh Piranha Plant, what can I even say about you. It's funny how numb to it I am now but this is still without a doubt the strangest reveal in Smash history. And I kinda love that. I was a believer in the Grinch leak but confidence fell with each passing day. On the day of the direct I was doubtful but still hopeful. Incineroar sealed the deal and while he was far from preferred Sun and Moon choice initially, I've grown to love him for his goody personality and fun playstyle. Piranha Plant coming after the Grinch fiasco made the whole situation all the funnier. I couldn't even be mad it was so bizarre and funny. Petey Piranha is my favorite Mario character and while I would have preferred him, he wouldn't have landed the same way Plant did.

Unfortunately, I find Plant probably the least fun DLC character to play. It it's not Plant it's Steve. But still, the moveset just did not jive with me, which is a shame given how creative and inspired it is. Even if I don't like playing it. I'll forever commend Sakurai for making a full moveset out of a potted plant.

JOKER:
Now this is more like it. Another unexpected character that blindsided me, but in a different way. I haven't played Persona 5 but one of my best friends loves it. My friends and I were casually watching the game awards but said friend was busy doing something else. We were half paying attention and perked up for what we thought might have been Persona 5 for Switch. Needless to say we lost our minds when the smash invitation showed up. My Persona fan friend said he got like eight texts all at once telling him about the news and he quickly rushed over to watch the trailer. Ultimate dropped later at midnight and we just went ham and started playing. A really fun night. Joker was a great way to kick off the pass.

Joker's pretty fun to play, and the plethora of Persona content he brought with him was great too. It's surreal hearing stuff like Last Surprise in Smash. Seeing the way players like MKLeo have made history with him is also cool to see. He's a choice that wasn't on my radar but ended up being a perfect fir for Smash and a great way to expand the scope of the crossover.

HERO:
Oh Hero, perhaps the worst kept secret in Smash Ultimate. As early as the Brave leak I was fully prepared for Dragon Quest to join the ranks of playable franchises. I still haven't played any DQ games, but even as early as 2018, I knew just how much sense they made. Huge legacy, close Nintendo ties, and strong demand. Was not shocked at all when Hero turned up at E3 (aside from Luminary being the default since I was sure they'd go for Erdrick). Seeing four different Heroes as alts was also a really cool twist I didn't expect. Their challenger pack content on the whole is somewhat lacking, especially in regards to the music, but it did show that Square was at least a bit more generous than many assumed after Cloud. A good sign of things to come but we'll get to him later. Stage was a little lacking too, but honestly the fact that DQ is here at all and the heroes are allowed to fight each other is miraculous enough.

Hero's fun to play, despite being very overwhelming at times given the command menu. I appreciate Sakurai going nuts with that. Helped to shut up the people whining about "anime swordfighters". He's not a character I play super often but I'm really glad he's here.
 

Momotsuki

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I don't like this idea that Captain Falcon's moveset is completely uninspired. I get that he's not, like, doing things that he does in F-ZERO, i.e. driving a damn car, but look at it in a different way. His movement and unmatched stylishness with the general flashiness of his moves absolutely carries the spirit of F-ZERO with it. Everything about it feels (insert Dunkey joke here) the way an F-ZERO character should.
 

GolisoPower

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Who do you think fits that criteria?
I don't know for sure, but I think I may have a few candidates in mind:
  • Reimu: If our final character is going to be a 3rd-party character, then this could be our best route. She seems like a reveal on par with Bayonetta from Smash 4: a low-profile 3rd-party character that could generate a decent amount of hype while still keeping it low-key.
  • Daitōryō/Lord Tengu: If the character is special to Nintendo/Sakurai specifically, then another low-key/left-field pick would have to be a character based on the very industry that started Nintendo off as a business: hanafuda cards. Daitōryō was apparently the highest quality of cards you can get with "Tengu" cards being the second-highest. Having a character based on Nintendo's origins would be an interesting and unconventional pick.
  • Koei Tecmo rep: As of right now, Koei Tecmo is one of the most cooperative companies with Nintendo, and if you look back, you can really see everything they've done. Whether that's Ryu Hayabusa or Lu Bu is still up in the air, but if we're going low-key, this is another good candidate.
 

Will

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I don't like this idea that Captain Falcon's moveset is completely uninspired. I get that he's not, like, doing things that he does in F-ZERO, i.e. driving a damn car, but look at it in a different way. His movement and unmatched stylishness with the general flashiness of his moves absolutely carries the spirit of F-ZERO with it. Everything about it feels (insert Dunkey joke here) the way an F-ZERO character should.
Dawg his moveset is just from the prototype of Smash Bros. before it had Nintendo characters
 

Momotsuki

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Dawg his moveset is just from the prototype of Smash Bros. before it had Nintendo characters
That's true. But what of his movement? And what about how it feels now with the massive modern roster to compare it with?
 
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Shroob

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I don't like this idea that Captain Falcon's moveset is completely uninspired. I get that he's not, like, doing things that he does in F-ZERO, i.e. driving a damn car, but look at it in a different way. His movement and unmatched stylishness with the general flashiness of his moves absolutely carries the spirit of F-ZERO with it. Everything about it feels (insert Dunkey joke here) the way an F-ZERO character should.
Ehhhhhhhhhh


Captain Falcon is much more of a Kamen Rider/Power Ranger feel tbh. Like, Rider Punch and Rider Kick are the direct inspiration for Falcon Punch and Kick.
 

N3ON

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Who do you think fits that criteria?
At this point, of the "active" characters, the apex is probably Master Chief, Sora and Crash. Though Chief and Crash's demand didn't really become palpable until post Smash 4, while Sora's has existed for longer.

Waluigi would also work, for different reasons, but whether he's eligible seems a matter of debate.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I don't like this idea that Captain Falcon's moveset is completely uninspired. I get that he's not, like, doing things that he does in F-ZERO, i.e. driving a damn car, but look at it in a different way. His movement and unmatched stylishness with the general flashiness of his moves absolutely carries the spirit of F-ZERO with it. Everything about it feels (insert Dunkey joke here) the way an F-ZERO character should.
Some of the moves even feel that way. He slams into opponents and dashes forward in some way, so while it's not a straight moveset translation, the spirit feels right.

It also helps that being inspired by Kamen Rider(mainly) fits extremely well. Raptor Boost is kind of the only one to slightly resemble a move(mainly the boost itself, combined with being able to spin into an opponent). Unless you want to say Falcon Dive resembles the concept of Boosting in itself(the animation does have a boost visual effect to it). Falcon Punch and Falcon Kick don't resemble anything.

Ironically Ganondorf actually resembled more stuff of his various artwork or attacks in his first appearance, despite being a clone. XD
 

Will

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That's true. But what of his movement? And what about how it feels now with the massive modern roster?
I don't feel Captain Falcon radiates F-Zero energy. If anything, F-Zero radiates influence from Smash Bros. He literally uses the Falcon Punch in one of the most iconic anime scenes of all time.


That said, the anime isn't very good. The protagonist, Ryu (and not Falcon), is such a bland guy, and the story is riddled with plot holes and just gets more stupid as the episode count goes up. Cars are literally pieces of the Big Bang, this is canon. It is by no means good, but that ending still engraves it in history.

But that's what you would expect when you choose a character from a racing franchise and throw him into a fighter. No F-Zero game is going to give you actual bounty hunter work where Falcon keeps his word on showing his moves; turning the game into a beat 'em up. Though that said, that sounds like a very fun idea.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I skipped my opinions on Joker yesterday likely because I don't really have one. I have no attachment to the character, he's pleasant to use, but ultimately didn't really make an impression on me, his skill ceiling is high enough that I can't really play him "correctly/well", and his kit is balanced amongst itself to the point where I can't even learn what about his design is good or bad based on other people's opinions other than everything, and Arsene (in answer to both questions)...Also Gun can be a bit oppressive, though IIRC that was patched a bit.

Other than that uuuh...Some of the music is really good. proceeds to spam Morgana taunts
 
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Rie Sonomura

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I don't feel Captain Falcon radiates F-Zero energy. If anything, F-Zero radiates influence from Smash Bros. He literally uses the Falcon Punch in one of the most iconic anime scenes of all time.


That said, the anime isn't very good. The protagonist, Ryu (and not Falcon), is such a bland guy, and the story is riddled with plot holes and just gets more stupid as the episode count goes up. Cars are literally pieces of the Big Bang, this is canon. It is by no means good, but that ending still engraves it in history.

But that's what you would expect when you choose a character from a racing franchise and throw him into a fighter. No F-Zero game is going to give you actual bounty hunter work where Falcon keeps his word on showing his moves; turning the game into a beat 'em up. Though that said, that sounds like a very fun idea.
I think some lyrical song in an F-Zero GX story mode cutscene references the Falcon Punch too. That came before GPL (which I also didn’t really like, why the HECK is Jack Levin 24 in GPL but 19 in GX; where’s Daigoroh; and also why is “Captain Falcon” a title? No, not in this house, Captain Douglas Jay Falcon FOREVER 😤)
 

Will

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I think some lyrical song in an F-Zero GX story mode cutscene references the Falcon Punch too. That came before GPL (which I also didn’t really like, why the HECK is Jack Levin 24 in GPL but 19 in GX; where’s Daigoroh; and also why is “Captain Falcon” a title? No, not in this house, Captain Douglas Jay Falcon FOREVER 😤)
I like the idea of Falcon as a title, it's iconic **** like James Bond. Which Falcon is in Smash Bros.? Who truly knows, maybe it's the anime boy. The trophy descriptions in Brawl rip straight from the anime's plot. :4pacman:
 
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