Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Rie Sonomura]

https://twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/1220541858310307841?s=20

It's not exactly a sure thing, but I feel like there's just as much similary here as any of the other POTD references that people freaked out about lmao.

View attachment 298910View attachment 298911

i didn't even suspect it was a reference to that, interesting

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Btw guys I think Sakurai's been hinting at a specific character...

pic.twitter.com/RH3bDYFdtM

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) April 8, 2020

pic.twitter.com/5xhBftiy7W

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) May 18, 2020

Let him in Sakurai

 

[skylanders fan]

If we do get him a he issues is we won’t be getting request for geno anymore it would be when is Sherk coming in but to be honest I’d love to have goku in just to see the reactions

 

[7NATOR]

If Goku ever got in, would he Have SSJ4, considering GT is considered Non-Canon now? I think it would be cool, but I don't know how they would fit it

I Imagine he'd have most of his Transformations, including SSJ, SSJ3, SSJ God, SSJ Blue (with Kaioken), Ultra Instinct

We also Need Vegeta (eventually) because these days, you can't have Goku without Vegeta

 

[SKX31]

Who was that one guy who ran Nintendo before Iwata? The guy who, as I have been told, disliked unions? Why still carry out his ways when he is gone? I know about honoring someone, but it's not like he was that great of a guy, anyway, right?

Hiroshi Yamauchi, the grandson of Nintendo's founder Fusajiro Yamauchi and president from 1949 to 2002. His childhood and adolescence was evidently plagued with a tense and stormy family relationship, which characterized many of his actions as president. It's very much worth noting that many of Nintendo's leaders entered the company during Yamauchi's tenure: Miyamoto, Iwata, Yokoi, Sakurai, Furukawa etc. Yamauchi personally made sure to hire Yokoi and Miyamoto, IIRC.

He's not the sole reason why Nintendo's anal about financial expenses (including unions) etc. But as one of the main forces behind Nintendo's transition from cards to video games, he was personally behind the idea of structuring Nintendo's working conditions around contractors instead of labor unions and maintaining as little expenses as feasible. Also, Hiroshi had a - by all accounts - very strong interest in securing his own powerbase to say the least.

As for why they still carry on, it's not just sheer inertia, but also the fact that Nintendo saw its major expansion under Hiroshi. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" logic. One of Hiroshi's positive aspects was that he was very good at incentivizing his workers - he spurred Yokoi, Miyamoto and others to always come up with new ideas. That's not to say there weren't misfires during Hiroshi's term - there absolutely were, from the love hotels to the Virtual Boy - but he was a major presence regardless, and it's evident in how Miyamoto still carries that kind of thinking.

But the erstwhile president’s belief in the power of invention, of “throwing away your old ideas,” still characterizes the company’s products, which over the past decade have continued to sidestep the technological arms race that defines the products of its rivals, Sony and Microsoft, in favor of playfulness and novelty. It is a philosophy that, over seven decades, brought Yamauchi and the company he inherited a great deal of success, even if that playfulness, if it was ever within him, rarely made itself known from behind the carapace, one that seems to have been formed in childhood and tempered in business.

 

[skylanders fan]

If Goku ever got in, would he Have SSJ4, considering GT is considered Non-Canon now? I think it would be cool, but I don't know how they would fit it

I Imagine he'd have most of his Transformations, including SSJ, SSJ3, SSJ God, SSJ Blue (with Kaioken), Ultra Instinct

We also Need Vegeta (eventually) because these days, you can't have Goku without Vegeta

They could have SSJ4 as a mii costume if they would want to reference it at best I think that would be it.

 

[3BitSaurus]

was this discussed yet?

Apparently the SwSh playlist was updated as well. I'd say it's most likely just a revision of older playlists, as they sometimes do. Where did you get that part about Kelios saying something should come soon, though? Couldn't find it in his tweets.

That's not to say there weren't misfires during Hiroshi's term - there absolutely were, from the love hotels to the Virtual Boy

The love hotels, a misfire? Heresy.

Clearly he was a man ahead of his time and was thinking how many memes would spawn out of it.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

If Goku did get in I think it’d be best to only give him Super Sayain. Introducing all the others would muddy him up a lot. Maybe he could have SS Blue as a Cutscene Final Smash. Also, Vegeta Echo Fighter.

 

[skylanders fan]

Tbh I don’t know if you could really have vegeta as a echo fighter I just don’t see them wanting to have him do a kamehameha or instant transportation (if they would even give him that) I could easily see Gohan as one though

 

[Otoad64]

If Goku did get in I think it’d be best to only give him Super Sayain. Introducing all the others would muddy him up a lot. Maybe he could have SS Blue as a Cutscene Final Smash. Also, Vegeta Echo Fighter.

nah there will be as many as there are in fighterZ

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Apparently the SwSh playlist was updated as well. I'd say it's most likely just a revision of older playlists, as they sometimes do. Where did you get that part about Kelios saying something should come soon, though? Couldn't find it in his tweets.



The love hotels, a misfire? Heresy.

Clearly he was a man ahead of his time and was thinking how many memes would spawn out of it.

Heard it from a friend on discord, will ask to verify

 

[CannonStreak]

Hiroshi Yamauchi, the grandson of Nintendo's founder Fusajiro Yamauchi and president from 1949 to 2002. His childhood and adolescence was evidently plagued with a tense and stormy family relationship, which characterized many of his actions as president. It's very much worth noting that many of Nintendo's leaders entered the company during Yamauchi's tenure: Miyamoto, Iwata, Yokoi, Sakurai, Furukawa etc. Yamauchi personally made sure to hire Yokoi and Miyamoto, IIRC.

He's not the sole reason why Nintendo's anal about financial expenses (including unions) etc. But as one of the main forces behind Nintendo's transition from cards to video games, he was personally behind the idea of structuring Nintendo's working conditions around contractors instead of labor unions and maintaining as little expenses as feasible. Also, Hiroshi had a - by all accounts - very strong interest in securing his own powerbase to say the least.

As for why they still carry on, it's not just sheer inertia, but also the fact that Nintendo saw its major expansion under Hiroshi. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" logic. One of Hiroshi's positive aspects was that he was very good at incentivizing his workers - he spurred Yokoi, Miyamoto and others to always come up with new ideas. That's not to say there weren't misfires during Hiroshi's term - there absolutely were, from the love hotels to the Virtual Boy - but he was a major presence regardless, and it's evident in how Miyamoto still carries that kind of thinking.

I see. Never really said he was the only reason, so either way, not surprised. Still, the “if it ain’t broke” thing, apparently the unions and voice actors and all did become broke. I’d say it’s about time Nintendo changed things up. Then again, while not calling everyone at Nintendo old, you know the saying: you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. You should know what I mean.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Tbh I don’t know if you could really have vegeta as a echo fighter I just don’t see them wanting to have him do a kamehameha or instant transportation (if they would even give him that) I could easily see Gohan as one though

They could always just slightly change the move and Kamehameha could become Galick Gun. While Goku is the only one with Instant Transmission, the animation of it has been used by basically everyone.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If Goku did get in I think it’d be best to only give him Super Sayain. Introducing all the others would muddy him up a lot. Maybe he could have SS Blue as a Cutscene Final Smash. Also, Vegeta Echo Fighter.

Yeah, keep in mind that the more forms you add, the less powerful the base form is going to be. Mid-match power ups really need to be less binary than "they suck at the start of battle, but now they're overtuned". It adds way too many dumb things to matchups in practice.

They could always just slightly change the move and Kamehameha could become Galick Gun. While Goku is the only one with Instant Transmission, the animation of it has been used by basically everyone.

I was about to say, even Videl has it in Dragon Ball FighterZ and nobody seemed to think it weird, so it probably wouldn't be that big of an issue.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

3BitSaurus my pal heard it from the gamefaqs smash board. not poking that place with a 10 foot pole but if anyone wants to confirm be my guest

 

[SharkLord]

If Goku did get in I think it’d be best to only give him Super Sayain. Introducing all the others would muddy him up a lot. Maybe he could have SS Blue as a Cutscene Final Smash. Also, Vegeta Echo Fighter.

I think the powerups are too iconic to be neglected. We could easily make the transformations his gimmick as a multi-layered install move, where it increases his damage output but also makes him lighter. As such, generally pros will only stick to the base Super Saiyan out of practicality (Unless we implement the god-level forms from Super, which might get a little fricky due to how different they are).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think the powerups are too iconic to be neglected. We could easily make the transformations his gimmick as a multi-layered install move, where it increases his damage output but also makes him lighter. As such, generally pros will only stick to the base Super Saiyan out of practicality (Unless we implement the god-level forms from Super, which might get a little fricky due to how different they are).

Goku: gets bigger
Also Goku: becomes lighter

Wat?

Actually, the forms not being treated as a straight power boost would make things a lot better. Too bad that doesn't seem to be how Dragon Ball forms work.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I think the powerups are too iconic to be neglected. We could easily make the transformations his gimmick as a multi-layered install move, where it increases his damage output but also makes him lighter. As such, generally pros will only stick to the base Super Saiyan out of practicality (Unless we implement the god-level forms from Super, which might get a little fricky due to how different they are).

Are they though? Your proposed concept of a Glass Cannon that can change how much of a Glass Cannon they are is certainly intriguing. But I don’t think these forms are a necessity. Super Saiyan is the only one I see as a must.
SS3 is big hair Goku and I still can’t tell the difference aesthetically between SS 1 and 2. Perhaps SS3 could be final smash or used for a Warlock Punch style attack and he could have his god forms as alts.
SSJ just isn’t worthwhile imo.

 

[7NATOR]

I Made a more detailed Goku moveset somewhere, but of the top of my head, here's I'll I'd do the Transformations (and I will try to also include SSJ4)

-Goku has a Ki Bar that goes up to 7.
-Kaioken is the Transformation you can use at anytime, and can go up to X10, but it damages you overtime
-SSJ requires 3 Bars, and it Boosts all Stats and upgrades some of Goku's moves
-SSJ3 also only requires 3 Bars, and is much stronger than SSJ in terms of stats, but Overtime Goku will lose power
-SSJ4 Requires 5 Bars. It's the 2nd Strongest Transformation, behind Super Saiyan Blue, and also upgrades Moves. You can't transform into SSJ God or SSJ Blue from this Transformation
-SSJ God requires 7 Bars. It's stronger than SSJ and SSJ3, but not as much as Super Saiyan 4. and also upgrades moves and such. The Key benefit of this Transformation is you gain Ki at a Much higher rate, while not losing as much when using them for moves
-SSJ Blue is Goku's strongest Transformation (Normally), and requires 7 Bars. You can also use Kaioken with this Transformation to get more power, but the Damage overtime is greater than usual
-Ultra Instinct is a Transformation activated under certain conditions. Mastered Form is harder to get but is stronger. Goku's Moveset also changes to be more "Instinctual"

 

[SharkLord]

Goku: gets bigger
Also Goku: becomes lighter

Wat?

Actually, the forms not being treated as a straight power boost would make things a lot better. Too bad that doesn't seem to be how Dragon Ball forms work.

I mean, it's actually not that far off. Nowadays Goku just sticks to the base Super Saiyan and the god forms because each successive powerup puts more strain on the body. Heck, the first Super Saiyan level alone made Kaio-Ken irrelevant because the surge of emotions means the strain would kill him on the spot, even after he mastered the form and made it more natural. Super Saiyan 2 had even more anger that made made the prior mastery useless and forced him to master the new level all over again, and Super Saiyan 3 is just straight-up impractical despite the ludicrous power boost, since it drains his stamina faster than the Switch's battery and puts a massive strain on the body. It's especially bad because he first attained the form when he was dead, so when he was revived and got his body back the strain was even worse. The increased weight, aside from balancing purposes, is a representation of the increasing strain the Super Saiyan forms have.

Yeah, I'm seriously discussing a Goku moveset in Smash
ISN'T IT WONDERFUL

 

[3BitSaurus]

3BitSaurus my pal heard it from the gamefaqs smash board. not poking that place with a 10 foot pole but if anyone wants to confirm be my guest

Okay, so apparently the GameFaqs thing is just a translation. The whole thing is a conversation between Kelios and two other users. One of them, Nintend'Alerts, is the one who brings up that the information would be revealed soon (probably this week or the next) and also brings up a Zelda-related special edition for the Switch.

He said both things in response to Kelios' original tweet talking about the Direct archives being updated. Kelios specifically liked his post on "more info soon", so there's that.

I'd rather not get any hopes up, because it's always for the better, but one notable thing about Kelios is that he usually got dates right. However, this time it's technically not coming from him, so take that as you will. Like I said before, it could always just be a repost of old videos, like the Smash one.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I Made a more detailed Goku moveset somewhere, but of the top of my head, here's I'll I'd do the Transformations (and I will try to also include SSJ4)

-Goku has a Ki Bar that goes up to 7.
-Kaioken is the Transformation you can use at anytime, and can go up to X10, but it damages you overtime
-SSJ requires 3 Bars, and it Boosts all Stats and upgrades some of Goku's moves
-SSJ3 also only requires 3 Bars, and is much stronger than SSJ in terms of stats, but Overtime Goku will lose power
-SSJ4 Requires 5 Bars. It's the 2nd Strongest Transformation, behind Super Saiyan Blue, and also upgrades Moves. You can't transform into SSJ God or SSJ Blue from this Transformation
-SSJ God requires 7 Bars. It's stronger than SSJ and SSJ3, but not as much as Super Saiyan 4. and also upgrades moves and such. The Key benefit of this Transformation is you gain Ki at a Much higher rate, while not losing as much when using them for moves
-SSJ Blue is Goku's strongest Transformation (Normally), and requires 7 Bars. You can also use Kaioken with this Transformation to get more power, but the Damage overtime is greater than usual
-Ultra Instinct is a Transformation activated under certain conditions. Mastered Form is harder to get but is stronger. Goku's Moveset also changes to be more "Instinctual"

Isn't Super Saiyan God not a form that can be achieved normally? I thought Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was supposed to be a way around that.

Anyway, I think the biggest problem with adding all of the forms is that it makes the character super complicated, and make him super dated since you can tell where the drop-off point is.

 

[Arcanir]

Apparently the guy who ran NIntendo before Iwata was heavily against unions. Since he is gone, I don't know why they would continue with those policies after he left, other than possibly honoring his word or something.

The thing is, they have unionized some of their other games. Kid Icarus and FE: Fates were unionized and even recently we have Dragalia Lost and (IIRC) Age of Calamity. It's odd that they can give the nod to their relatively smaller games and allow actors like Brian Drummond and Sean Chiplock to get those benefits, but they won't for one of their biggest games in Ultimate and we're stuck with things like Cloud not being voiced.

 

[SharkLord]

Are they though? Your proposed concept of a Glass Cannon that can change how much of a Glass Cannon they are is certainly intriguing. But I don’t think these forms are a necessity. Super Saiyan is the only one I see as a must.
SS3 is big hair Goku and I still can’t tell the difference aesthetically between SS 1 and 2. Perhaps SS3 could be final smash or used for a Warlock Punch style attack and he could have his god forms as alts.
SSJ just isn’t worthwhile imo.

I mean, the constant next-level power-ups are a constant anime trope after Dragon Ball. At the very least, I think we could have him transform when charging up a smash attack.
And yeah, SSJ and SSJ2 are pretty close. The main thing is that the hair gets a little longer and becomes rigid, but Goku's hair already spikes up a lot. They'd probably have to emphasize the constant sparks, or maybe make SSJ3 a more dramatic increase in glass cannon-ness due to how distinctive it is.

And while we're at it, let's have it play a remix of the SSJ3 theme whenever he's transformed that overrides the background music, just because.

 

[CannonStreak]

The thing is, they have unionized some of their other games. Kid Icarus and FE: Fates were unionized and even recently we have Dragalia Lost and (IIRC) Age of Calamity. It's odd that they can give the nod to their relatively smaller games and allow actors like Brian Drummond and Sean Chiplock to get those benefits, but they won't for one of their biggest games in Ultimate and we're stuck with things like Cloud not being voiced.

Yeah, I was aware of that. Still, there doesn’t seem to be many unionized games from Nintendo.

 

[Froggy]

Are they though? Your proposed concept of a Glass Cannon that can change how much of a Glass Cannon they are is certainly intriguing. But I don’t think these forms are a necessity. Super Saiyan is the only one I see as a must.
SS3 is big hair Goku and I still can’t tell the difference aesthetically between SS 1 and 2. Perhaps SS3 could be final smash or used for a Warlock Punch style attack and he could have his god forms as alts.
SSJ just isn’t worthwhile imo.

If you're making the character for the audience who is watching dragon ball super today(which you absolutely should, since casual DB fans wouldn't be any less likely to buy a more hardcore/faithful representation of the character) then all of those powerup forms should absolutely be included.

Not feeling the whole glass cannon thing though, since they just took that approach with Sephiroth. Instead of making him lighter, instead damaging himself overtime is a much better balancing approach imo.

 

[7NATOR]

Isn't Super Saiyan God not a form that can be achieved normally? I thought Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was supposed to be a way around that.

Anyway, I think the biggest problem with adding all of the forms is that it makes the character super complicated, and make him super dated since you can tell where the drop-off point is.

The first time to achieve Super Saiyan God required the ritual, but Goku and Vegeta now learned how to transform into it at will

Super Sayian God is now the transformation that Goku and Vegeta use to reserve their stamina, since Super Sayian Blue, while it's more powerful than God, uses the Stamina more often.

And I could see the complaints about the datedness, but considering Goku probably realistically won't get in for another 2 Decades at least (Unless there is some type of Spinoff), I'm sure whatever new Transformation that appears will be included

and I don't think it would be that much complicated though. It depends on how it flows with Goku's Moveset and such like that. yes

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Hey guys what's u-

Sees Goku talk

 

[SharkLord]

Isn't Super Saiyan God not a form that can be achieved normally? I thought Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was supposed to be a way around that.

Anyway, I think the biggest problem with adding all of the forms is that it makes the character super complicated, and make him super dated since you can tell where the drop-off point is.

Partially. Goku needed a big fancy ritual, but after training under Whis (Who's at god-level, mind you) and can access the Super Saiyan God at will. Meanwhile, Vegeta just obtains it offscreen.

As for the forms, I'd say it would be easiest to use the Z-era tiers of Super Saiyan, since those are the most iconic forms and are also the most linear, since GT and Super's forms both rely on different sources (Great Ape and God forms, respectively) to create hybrid forms that are in a tier of their own.

 

[Firox]

I Made a more detailed Goku moveset somewhere, but of the top of my head, here's I'll I'd do the Transformations (and I will try to also include SSJ4)

-Goku has a Ki Bar that goes up to 7.
-Kaioken is the Transformation you can use at anytime, and can go up to X10, but it damages you overtime
-SSJ requires 3 Bars, and it Boosts all Stats and upgrades some of Goku's moves
-SSJ3 also only requires 3 Bars, and is much stronger than SSJ in terms of stats, but Overtime Goku will lose power
-SSJ4 Requires 5 Bars. It's the 2nd Strongest Transformation, behind Super Saiyan Blue, and also upgrades Moves. You can't transform into SSJ God or SSJ Blue from this Transformation
-SSJ God requires 7 Bars. It's stronger than SSJ and SSJ3, but not as much as Super Saiyan 4. and also upgrades moves and such. The Key benefit of this Transformation is you gain Ki at a Much higher rate, while not losing as much when using them for moves
-SSJ Blue is Goku's strongest Transformation (Normally), and requires 7 Bars. You can also use Kaioken with this Transformation to get more power, but the Damage overtime is greater than usual
-Ultra Instinct is a Transformation activated under certain conditions. Mastered Form is harder to get but is stronger. Goku's Moveset also changes to be more "Instinctual"

So how does Goku charge his Ki Bar? Would he pop a squat like he does in the Budokai series?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So how does Goku charge his Ki Bar? Would he pop a squat like he does in the Budokai series?

Likely through the power of "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"


Or it could just be a normal comeback mechanic. Or both. They both work in this context.

 

[Icedragonadam]

So what I hear is that there's going to be a Zelda Anniversary celebration in February with a Zelda themed Switch being one of them, and a direct next week Monday or Tuesday.

I'm guessing it's a mini or a partner direct.

 

[7NATOR]

So how does Goku charge his Ki Bar? Would he pop a squat like he does in the Budokai series?

That's how it usually works. I just don't know if it would be a Special, or some other special type of Action

 

[SneakyLink]

Something that bugs me whenever non gaming characters are brought up: why is it always Goku? Why not try a different character like... Minky Momo?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I mean, the constant next-level power-ups are a constant anime trope after Dragon Ball. At the very least, I think we could have him transform when charging up a smash attack.
And yeah, SSJ and SSJ2 are pretty close. The main thing is that the hair gets a little longer and becomes rigid, but Goku's hair already spikes up a lot. They'd probably have to emphasize the constant sparks, or maybe make SSJ3 a more dramatic increase in glass cannon-ness due to how distinctive it is.

And while we're at it, let's have it play a remix of the SSJ3 theme whenever he's transformed that overrides the background music, just because.

Making a difference like Smash attacks sounds good. Or your well made concept of swapping power for weight. To be clear, I’m not against the idea of his other forms. They are well known and Iconic, though I don’t think they’re necessities. What I’m against is making him Lucario 2, cause god damn I hate Lucario.

That's how it usually works. I just don't know if it would be a Special, or some other special type of Action

Maybe it could be like how Inkling refills.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

So what I hear is that there's going to be a Zelda Anniversary celebration in February with a Zelda themed Switch being one of them, and a direct next week Monday or Tuesday.

I'm guessing it's a mini or a partner direct.

Kelios said Monday or Tuesday 3 days ago so if he meant an announcement, he meant today or tomorrow.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Something that bugs me whenever non gaming characters are brought up: why is it always Goku? Why not try a different character like... Minky Momo?

The heck is a Minky Momo?

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Something that bugs me whenever non gaming characters are brought up: why is it always Goku? Why not try a different character like... Minky Momo?

Jotaro for Smash.

 

[SharkLord]

Something that bugs me whenever non gaming characters are brought up: why is it always Goku? Why not try a different character like... Minky Momo?

I mean it's %$#@ing Goku

Speaking seriously, I think he's just become tradition at this point. Dragon Ball Z was huge during the Melee-Brawl era, when speculation was becoming a regular thing. Video games only has always been the one solid rule, but DBZ is just that popular and people keep asking for Goku based on that, ironic or otherwise. As such, Goku has become emblematic of fourth-party characters.

Though if you want I can probably push myself to spin something out of Calvin and Hobbes

 

[Icedragonadam]

Kelios said Monday or Tuesday 3 days ago so if he meant an announcement, he meant today or tomorrow.

Well it's probably tomorrow then if that's the case. Imagine Nintendo just announcing an actual general direct announcement.