Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Cutie Gwen]

Once again, I personally think Tails is still on the table, but other Sega characters seem to be a priority. Eggman seems to be the big push within the Sonic Smash fandom now and I feel like since they have given up on pushing Tails of Shadow and are now talking about Eggman, Sakurai and Nintendo will potentially see that and think they WANT Eggman over these other characters, hence another Sega rep could be a defeatist self-fulfilling prophecy.. Heihachi has a list of things that were against him way before his costume returned.

You can feel free to give up on your character getting in for less than stellar reasons, but some people refuse to do so and they are allowed to do the same.

Oh no people who like Sonic and think it should get another character would... Get a Sonic character that they still like, the horror!

 

[ForsakenM]

Oh no people who like Sonic and think it should get another character would... Get a Sonic character that they still like, the horror!

Right, but if you really wanted Tails and you gave up on pushing him to push for who you think CAN get in, you played yourself.

It's like saying I like the Hulk more than Spideman, but something made it look like Hulk can't get into the next Marvel game so I gave up trying and just pushed for Spiderman instead. Spiderman ended up happening, but as it turns out Hulk could have still gotten in but the collective requests died out so they focused on the Spiderman ones instead.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Right, but if you really wanted Tails and you gave up on pushing him to push for who you think CAN get in, you played yourself.

It's like saying I like the Hulk more than Spideman, but something made it look like Hulk can't get into the next Marvel game so I gave up trying and just pushed for Spiderman instead. Spiderman ended up happening, but as it turns out Hulk could have still gotten in but the collective requests died out so they focused on the Spiderman ones instead.

I get what you're trying to say, but I'm pretty sure Spider-Man is more than Hulk in general, so that might not be a good comparison.

 

[Scamper52596]

Tails has been my most wanted Smash character for as long as I can remember, but personally I'm not going to continue being hopeful for a character that I now feel has next to no shot since the Mii Fighter Costume reveal. It would be a waste of energy for me. If he does happen to make it in as DLC someday, I'll just be pleasantly surprised and hyped. But I'm not going to bother kidding myself while waiting for an unlikely event to happen.

 

[SharkLord]

Tron time.

As someone who doesn't know Legends very well in general...

Can't say I'd be really disappointed with this outcome.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Right, but if you really wanted Tails and you gave up on pushing him to push for who you think CAN get in, you played yourself.

It's like saying I like the Hulk more than Spideman, but something made it look like Hulk can't get into the next Marvel game so I gave up trying and just pushed for Spiderman instead. Spiderman ended up happening, but as it turns out Hulk could have still gotten in but the collective requests died out so they focused on the Spiderman ones instead.

You're saying that as if they suddenly didn't like Eggman anymore in this scenario. Atthe end of the day, did they get a character they wanted? Yes. This implies Nintendo needs constant awareness to know if people want a popular character from a popular franchise when the reality is that they know Tails is popular. Which is why he got a Mii Costume to begin with because theybweren't planning on making him playable anytime soon and thought hey, why not throw them a bone? Nobody'd be happy for a character and then feel screwed out of a different character because surprise surprise, most people are more than happy to get something else they like instead of their favourite. I'm not gonna say Terry sucks because he's not Sol or anything lmao

 

[Garteam]

Broke: Wanting Chun-Li so Street Fighter can get more music.
Woke: Wanting Ms. Pac-Man so Pac-Maze can return.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Once again, I personally think Tails is still on the table, but other Sega characters seem to be a priority. Eggman seems to be the big push within the Sonic Smash fandom now and I feel like since they have given up on pushing Tails of Shadow and are now talking about Eggman, Sakurai and Nintendo will potentially see that and think they WANT Eggman over these other characters, hence another Sega rep could be a defeatist self-fulfilling prophecy.. Heihachi has a list of things that were against him way before his costume returned.

You can feel free to give up on your character getting in for less than stellar reasons, but some people refuse to do so and they are allowed to do the same.

I mean sure, you're free to do whatever you want.

I'm free to say that I think Goku will be in this game because the "video game character only" rule is old and doesn't apply anymore or that Goku premiered in an NES game in the West before the Dragon Ball manga/anime made it overseas. In any case, it's clear that my argument rests on faulty, contrived logic to justify a conclusion that I want to happen so bad that I refuse to acknowledge the completely sound argument to the contrary.

If I'm blatant enough in my ignorance people are going to call me out because I'm being entirely unrealistic, and I'm wasting my time and energy for what is almost definitely an impossibility. Especially if I've moved the goalposts as many time as some Geno fans have.

Sometimes you just gotta know when to fold 'em.

 

[PK-remling Fire]

I don't get why people think that Nintendo would release a paid DLC character in the same cycle where they just revealed a paid costume of the same character. By all accounts it doesn't make sense and it just looks like they're trying to cope with their character being deconfirmed.

In fact there's a better chance of Monster Hunter being released with a different Hunter mii costume than Geno (on account there are multiple varying armor designs, including Rise's design), so I don't understand why people believe Geno's has a better supposed chance than either MH or Lloyd. Granted both have relatively low chances to begin with, but at least the chance is there.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

I guess I played myself the moment I stopped hyping up my most wanted character Steve because I just didn't see it as likely anymore after Pass 1 and then Steve came after all... and yeah I felt so terrible that one of my favourite games got into Smash and I stopped pushing for it prior. /s

 

[N3ON]

Broke: Wanting Chun-Li so Street Fighter can get more music.
Woke: Wanting Ms. Pac-Man so Pac-Maze can return.

Y'know what, almost all my characters are either already in, or probably deconfirmed, so **** it...

 

[RetrogamerMax]

At this point the term "Fan Rule" just seems like a catch all phrase used to prove someone wrong for the sake of proving them wrong.

If that's the case, than why has all these characters broken these fan rules?

People said Ridley was too big, yet they added him.

People said K. Rool was irrelevant, yet they added him.

People said Banjo & Kazooie couldn't be added because they were owned by Microsoft a competitor and said they were irrelevant, yet they added them.

People said we wouldn't likely be getting Nintendo reps in Fighter's Pass 1, yet they added Byleth.

People said Spirits couldn't become playable characters, yet they added Min Min.

People said they would likely never add secondary non Echo unique 3rd party reps, yet they added Sephiroth.

Over and over again, certain character inclusions are constantly breaking fan rules that community treats as official rules. Soon the other rules like "No Assist Trophy promotions" and "No company can double dip in the same Pass" will eventually die as well.

 

[N3ON]

If that's the case, than why has all these characters broken these fan rules?

People said Ridley was too big, yet they added him.

People said K. Rool was irrelevant, yet they added him.

People said Banjo & Kazooie couldn't be added because they were owned by Microsoft a competitor and said they were irrelevant, yet they added them.

People said we wouldn't likely be getting Nintendo reps in Fighter's Pass 1, yet they added Byleth.

People said Spirits couldn't become playable characters, yet they added Min Min.

People said they would likely never add secondary non Echo unique 3rd party reps, yet they added Sephiroth.

Over and over again, certain character inclusions are constantly breaking fan rules that community treats as official rules. Soon the other rules like "No Assist Trophy promotions" and "No company can double dip in the same Pass" will eventually die as well.

Those aren't fan rules, other than maybe the spirit one, those are just reasons people didn't expect the character.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Those aren't fan rules, other than maybe the spirit one, those are just reasons people didn't expect the character.

Well people did treat those statements as rules before those characters were included. Anyone who says otherwise is a revisionist.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If that's the case, than why has all these characters broken these fan rules?

People said Ridley was too big, yet they added him.

People said K. Rool was irrelevant, yet they added him.

People said Banjo & Kazooie couldn't be added because they were owned by Microsoft a competitor and said they were irrelevant, yet they added them.

People said we wouldn't likely be getting Nintendo reps in Fighter's Pass 1, yet they added Byleth.

People said Spirits couldn't become playable characters, yet they added Min Min.

People said they would likely never add secondary non Echo unique 3rd party reps, yet they added Sephiroth.

Over and over again, certain character inclusions are constantly breaking fan rules that community treats as official rules. Soon the other rules like "No Assist Trophy promotions" and "No company can double dip in the same Pass" will eventually die as well.

This is like the 5th time you posted this video here, nobody's gonna be convinced that they should change their minds just because some rando keeps posting a video telling them they're wrong because you said so. I'm gonna make campaign for Blue Shell Luigi, anyone who tells me he's not gonna happen is just a fanrule user and I'll spam a crap video that exists solely to be spammed to get ad revenue from

 

[ForsakenM]

I get what you're trying to say, but I'm pretty sure Spider-Man is more than Hulk in general, so that might not be a good comparison.

Hmm, isn't Spiderman like only under Batman and Superman?

I guess than a better one would be wanting Batman and settling for Spiderman, since Tails and Eggman are kinda big deals.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Hmm, isn't Spiderman like only under Batman and Superman?

I guess than a better one would be wanting Batman and settling for Spiderman, since Tails and Eggman are kinda big deals.

I would say he's under Superman and Batman in terms of popularity and iconicness. Spiderman is pretty much Marvel's most successful and iconic franchise if we are not counting the Avengers flims.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Honestly the funniest thing about the fanrule argument is that by calling something an argument a fanrule, you're forcing your own fanrule as an argument, meaning that as the counterargument is a fanrule, it's invalid

 

[N3ON]

Well people did treat those statements as rules before those characters were included. Anyone who says otherwise is a revisionist.

How can it be a rule, fan or otherwise, if as many people disbelieve it as believe it.

It's just a belief. If the term fan rule is synonymous with that, what is the point of its existence?

It used to only be applied in retrospect to things that almost the entire fanbase maintained beforehand, like Nintendo association or one third-party per company (which seems strange that that was the belief, in hindsight). If it can just be used interchangeably with an idea some subset of the fanbase has, it's even more meaningless than it used to be. I could sit here for an hour listing things the fanbase used to believe.

Btw, "too big" was as legitimized as it was in part because Sakurai endorsed it. It's not really a fan rule once he agrees with you.

 

[PK-remling Fire]

There's a big leap between "character can't get in because reasons" and Nintendo releasing a paid mii costume of a character.

If Nintendo was going to put a character in smash, they wouldn't have released a mii costume for them that you have to buy. If they did, it would make the costume obsolete to all but the most diehard fans and make most people question "why should I buy this costume if I can get the character instead?" Although small, it would be one less DLC that people would feel the need to pay for, which would make it pretty much a wasted asset.

I could see DLC characters getting mii costumes if they have more than one design, but even then it would most likely be revealed alongside said character.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

How can it be a rule, fan or otherwise, if as many people disbelieve it as believe it.

It's just a belief. If the term fan rule is synonymous with that, what is the point of its existence?

It used to only be applied in retrospect to things that almost the entire fanbase maintained beforehand, like Nintendo association or one third-party per company (which seems strange that that was the belief, in hindsight). If it can just be used interchangeably with an idea some subset of the fanbase has, it's even more meaningless than it used to be. I could sit here for an hour listing things the fanbase used to believe.

Btw, "too big" was as legitimized as it was in part because Sakurai endorsed it. It's not really a fan rule once he agrees with you.

Well Sakurai didn't say beforehand characters couldn't get in because they were too irrelevant, owned by a certain competitor, couldn't get in because they were already a Spirit, or they couldn't get in because they were a secondary character in a already existing 3rd party franchise in the roster. Sakurai makes the game so he makes the rules. Unless he says something, non of our rules don't mean jack **** no matter how many of us say so.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well Sakurai didn't say beforehand characters couldn't get in because they were too irrelevant, owned by a certain competitor, couldn't get in because they were already a Spirit, or they couldn't get in because they were a secondary character in a already existing 3rd party franchise in the roster. Sakurai makes the game so he makes the rules. Unless he says something, non of our rules don't mean jack **** no matter how many of us say so.

Then why do you enforce your fanrules as if you know any better than us?

 

[RileyXY1]

Honestly the funniest thing about the fanrule argument is that by calling something an argument a fanrule, you're forcing your own fanrule as an argument, meaning that as the counterargument is a fanrule, it's invalid

Why did you have to drop a paradox on us?

 

[chocolatejr9]

Why did you have to drop a paradox on us?

A paradox!?!

TIME TO SPLIT!

insert Timesplitters meme here

 

[Eldrake]

Honestly the funniest thing about the fanrule argument is that by calling something an argument a fanrule, you're forcing your own fanrule as an argument, meaning that as the counterargument is a fanrule, it's invalid

Your Argument = Fanrule.
My Argument = Not a fanrule.
Simple as.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Then why do you enforce your fanrules as if you know any better than us?

The so called fan rules above have already been broken. The ones in the video at least. You always have something negative to say about something I say when I post here. Do you have something against me?

 

[PK-remling Fire]

All fanrules are equal
But some fanrules are more equal than others

 

[Rie Sonomura]

A paradox!?!

TIME TO SPLIT!

insert Timesplitters meme here

how long until Evil Trapezium gets into my account next - TIME TO SPLIT!

...what was that?!

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Definitely don't understand the smug sense of superiority that comes with the phrase "fan rules ain't ****" when most of the "fan rules" being discussed weren't even fan rules. They were points of argument against a character based off of precedent—one of the only things we have to go off of in speculation.

Okay, so you're "enlightened" because you just...refuse to listen to an opposing argument. What do you want from me now that you've stuck your fingers in your ears? A cookie or something?

 

[N3ON]

Well Sakurai didn't say beforehand characters couldn't get in because they were too irrelevant, owned by a certain competitor, couldn't get in because they were already a Spirit, or they couldn't get in because they were a secondary character in a already existing 3rd party franchise in the roster. Sakurai makes the game so he makes the rules. Unless he says something, non of our rules don't mean jack **** no matter how many of us say so.

And neither did large swaths of the fanbase. Some people said it, some people didn't.

If that makes it a fan rule, when a sizeable chunk of the fanbase was never behind it in the first place, then I agree with the initial point that the term is a catch-all to simply discredit people instead of retaining the meaning it once had, where it was only applied very selectively to things that were pretty agreed upon before being disproven.

It's just a buzzword now when someone says something won't happen. And maybe they're right to be disagreed with, but it completely strips the term of any real weight.

I mean even in your list you had "irrelevance" twice, when if it was a fan rule like no third-parties or Nintendo association, getting one should've dismantled it completely. But it's not a fan rule, it's just a recurring (and real) obstacle, and that's why characters will continue to grapple and sometimes fall to it. We got K. Rool and Banjo... we didn't get Geno or Isaac, did we?

 

[Eldrake]

Definitely don't understand the smug sense of superiority that comes with the phrase "fan rules ain't ****" when most of the "fan rules" being discussed weren't even fan rules. They were points of argument against a character based off of precedent—one of the only things we have to go off of in speculation.

Okay, so you're "enlightened" because you just...refuse to listen to an opposing argument. You want a cookie or something?

At this rate, there will be a day where people will start calling "it is unlikely that there will be non-video game characters in Smash" a fanrule. And I do not look forward to that day.

 

[SKX31]

A paradox!?!

TIME TO SPLIT!

insert Timesplitters meme here

Wait - what's happenin-

[Static noises in the background]

I'm announcing my vocal support for Civilization (VI)'s Genghis Khan.

The Giant Death Robot better be his Final Smash.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Definitely don't understand the smug sense of superiority that comes with the phrase "fan rules ain't ****" when most of the "fan rules" being discussed weren't even fan rules. They were points of argument against a character based off of precedent—one of the only things we have to go off of in speculation.

Okay, so you're "enlightened" because you just...refuse to listen to an opposing argument. What do you want from me now that you've stuck your fingers and your ears? A cookie or something?

Well, I'm just saying over and over again the community is wrong.

And neither did large swaths of the fanbase. Some people said it, some people didn't.

If that makes it a fan rule, when a sizeable chunk of the fanbase was never behind it in the first place, then I agree with the initial point that the term is a catch-all to simply discredit people instead of retaining the meaning it once had, where it was only applied very selectively to things that were pretty agreed upon before being disproven.

It's just a buzzword now when someone says something won't happen. And maybe they're right to be disagreed with, but it completely strips the term of any real weight.

I mean even in your list you had "irrelevance" twice, when if it was a fan rule like no third-parties or Nintendo association, getting one should've dismantled it completely. But it's not a fan rule, it's just a recurring (and real) obstacle, and that's why characters will continue to grapple and sometimes fall to it. We got K. Rool and Banjo... we didn't get Geno or Isaac, did we?

K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie got in over Isaac and Geno because they did better on the Smash Ballot and Nintendo and Microsoft probably saw some promise in their inclusions for promoting their franchises.

 

[SharkLord]

If that's the case, than why has all these characters broken these fan rules?

People said Ridley was too big, yet they added him.

People said K. Rool was irrelevant, yet they added him.

People said Banjo & Kazooie couldn't be added because they were owned by Microsoft a competitor and said they were irrelevant, yet they added them.

People said we wouldn't likely be getting Nintendo reps in Fighter's Pass 1, yet they added Byleth.

People said Spirits couldn't become playable characters, yet they added Min Min.

People said they would likely never add secondary non Echo unique 3rd party reps, yet they added Sephiroth.

Over and over again, certain character inclusions are constantly breaking fan rules that community treats as official rules. Soon the other rules like "No Assist Trophy promotions" and "No company can double dip in the same Pass" will eventually die as well.

The problem here is that you're assuming everyone who uses the arguments treat them as official, set-in-stone rules when they're just basing things off of precedent. Speculation is, by nature, based off of precedent, because without it we'd be flailing around like a headless chicken in a pitch-black cavern. Opinions are drawn from which precedents we think will stay, and which patterns we think will be broken. Nothing is a rule unless explicitly stated, but we need to set some guidelines or the next pack with be Ice Climbers 2, using Rundas and Cirno. If an argument is countered with "That's just a fanrule," people aren't going to be convinced. If you want to convince people why the "fanrule" doesn't apply, you'll need proof as to why it doesn't apply. Kinda goes for everything, really.

So yeah. If you have reasons to believe we can disregard a certain precedent, I'm all ears. It's just that dismissing an argument as "just a fanrule" is gonna get some people kinda miffed that their opinions are just waved off like that.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

At this rate, there will be a day where people will start calling "it is unlikely that there will be non-video game characters in Smash" a fanrule. And I do not look forward to that day.

Look dude all I'm saying is that Goku first appeared in the West in the NES game Dragon Power so he could totally get in and the non-video game character fan-rule isn't **** I'M TELLING YOU THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN WHY WON'T ANYONE LISTEN TO ME

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Fanrules are weird in the sense that some people take arguments into the extreme, and coupled with revisionist history to own the fan rule followers, leads to things like “The Smash fanbase dismissed K. Rool for being irrelevant.” when that was but a small subset of vocal detractors. I also really don’t remember the fanbase at large deducing that Spirits would deconfirm for DLC, and during the ARMS fighter speculation we have definitely seen our fair share of support for Spring Man, which was rarely shot down because of a rock-hard, golden fan rule of AT`s not making it in.
Saying that fanrules are the gold-star posterboys of a fanbase is the revisionist history and ”fanrule” is the lowest common denominator of arguments and a self-destruct button for any civil discourse, so it’s not surprising that the delusional Geno fans are reaching for it after the whole paradigm of things going their way collapsed.

As it stands, Geno is already a character with a lot going against him. Yes, these individual traits (one-off, old character, third party) have not stopped a character from being in Smash and I think that due to his top tier popularity and apparent Sakurai seal of approval, Geno was in the realm of possibilities and even beyond that.

In a realm with any fanrules as ubiquitous as the video claims, Geno would be the second public bathroom after Thatcher’s grave. The fact Geno was considered a possibility or even likely is a testament to the idea that fanrule culture is overblown and that you can infact do a Build-A-Bear with Dark Pit’s array of games and Duck Hunt‘s age on a fully unique character and people generally don’t mind.

But as any Geno fan will tell you, and detractors have to admit, what makes Geno likely despite that unholy combination of factors, those qualities are offset by Geno‘s intense and persisting popularity. It’s not a fan rule to say that it helps if a character has more than two games, but it is a fanrule to say that Geno is too old/irrelevant for Smash nor that no character from only one game can make it in. In the same vein that saying popularity is important isn’t a fanrule, but the idea that a character, no matter of their other qualities, can be too unpopular for Smash.

The thing with the Mii Costume “rule” is that it lines up with what we know of timelines of development and right now, there are very little factors that can offset or explain the fact that a costume has returned per the usual for a character, while that character is in. At some point you gotta call Occam’s Razor and say that that scenario becomes too unlikely to defend. If you keep doing it, that’s your Smash speculation experience and that’s fine, but to say that it’s still perfectly fine to expect Geno and that we would be amiss to not consider the possibility of a high-stakes conspiracy aimed at Geno specifically will get you the occassional pushback. Not thinking Geno is likely doesn’t make us bullies, and implying that is reverse bullying.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The so called fan rules above have already been broken. The ones in the video at least. You always have something negative to say about something I say when I post here. Do you have something against me?

Nah, you've done **** all to warrant a grudge or anything lmao. It's just that Mii Costumes still having a chance to be playable is also a fanrule if the opposite's true. You're repeating it over and over again as if you're desperate to prove your favourite's still got a chance by using your own fanrule as an argument. After all, how would you know if Masahiro "I hope this costume feels just like playing the character" Sakurai agrees with your argument but not one he's strongly suggested is the case for half a decade? It's literally just shouting "nou" because you don't have an actual argument, the fact that you're suggesting I hold something against you instead of countering my claim that you dismissing stuff you don't agree with as fanrules is you using fanrules tells me that's the reality. Hell, this **** even started with a post where I said 2 characters I dislike are in the same boat as one I really like

 

[RetrogamerMax]

The problem here is that you're assuming everyone who uses the arguments treat them as official, set-in-stone rules when they're just basing things off of precedent. Speculation is, by nature, based off of precedent, because without it we'd be flailing around like a headless chicken in a pitch-black cavern. Opinions are drawn from which precedents we think will stay, and which patterns we think will be broken. Nothing is a rule unless explicitly stated, but we need to set some guidelines or the next pack with be Ice Climbers 2, using Rundas and Cirno. If an argument is countered with "That's just a fanrule," people aren't going to be convinced. If you want to convince people why the "fanrule" doesn't apply, you'll need proof as to why it doesn't apply. Kinda goes for everything, really.

So yeah. If you have reasons to believe we can disregard a certain precedent, I'm all ears. It's just that dismissing an argument as "just a fanrule" is gonna get some people kinda miffed that their opinions are just waved off like that.

Like I said, we don't make the rules, Sakurai does. And unless he says something, non of our words mean jack **** including mine. Only Sakurai's words matter because he makes the game.

 

[Louie G.]

I don't know about you guys, I'm still hoping for them to blindside us all and reveal that Sans was simply too lazy to show up on time and hired a stand-in to dress as him until he could get there for real.

Someday before I die I need to experience the madness of hearing Sans' voice after the Smash symbol cuts in. Please give me this.

 

[N3ON]

K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie got in over Isaac and Geno because they did better on the Smash Ballot and Nintendo and Microsoft probably saw some promise in their inclusions for promoting their franchises.

In the past two posts you've ignored everything but my final sentence.