Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[SMAASH! Puppy]

While not a fighting game character, is an asymmetrical character who has mirrored animations in Smash.

In Minecraft (or Java Edition at least,) he has a main hand and an off hand, and, while you can put any item or block in either of his hands, he can only swing items like swords or axes if they are in his main hand. You can press pause and go into the options menu to change which hand is his main hand, but no one is going to realistically switch his handedness that often, unlike in Smash where he switches hands every time he turns around so that his main hand is always the one closer to the camera.

Well, he is treated as if he's ambidextrous when he's not really, but he doesn't swap which hand he holds things in with his turnaround animation; only when he attacks. It is only slightly different than what I was talking about, but since Steve swaps weapons all the time, it isn't really noticeable.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

If a Phantasy Star character is the last character can Sakurai PLEASE acknowledge the music from the Nei Puzzle game that came from Mega Drive online Download service

メガドライブのゲーム図書館より「ライトニングネイ」ギンギンなサウンドに乗せたシャドー&フラッシュとカラー&ライトニングなネイです。
#ネイ生誕祭 pic.twitter.com/OEvGNWA1wn

— 一息入れましょう (@shilka357) August 29, 2021

Its way too good to be unreleased and forgotten

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

Once the DLC is over, I just want the options to sort character by series.
I still find it odd not to have all Mario or Pokemon characters next to each other.

 

[Shroob]

Once the DLC is over, I just want the options to sort character by series.
I still find it odd not to have all Mario or Pokemon characters next to each other.

As much as I dislike the current way the CSS is sorted....


At least it's not as bad as Smash 4's.



Oh sure, the series were sorted.... somewhat. But then you had Yoshi right in the middle of the Mario characters for some reason despite having his own series icon. And the clones in their own section. And the DLC in its. And don't get me started on the 3DS.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

As much as I dislike the current way the CSS is sorted....


At least it's not as bad as Smash 4's.



Oh sure, the series were sorted.... somewhat. But then you had Yoshi right in the middle of the Mario characters for some reason despite having his own series icon. And the clones in their own section. And the DLC in its. And don't get me started on the 3DS.

Well, the reason why Yoshi was in the middle of the Mario series section was because Yoshi debuted in a MARIO GAME.

 

[Shroob]

Well, the reason why Yoshi was in the middle of the Mario series section was because Yoshi debuted in a MARIO GAME.

Yeah, but then Wario doesn't follow that logic, who also debuted in a Mario game. He's put at the end of the Mario characters because he's considered his own series. It's inconsistent and bad.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

As much as I dislike the current way the CSS is sorted....


At least it's not as bad as Smash 4's.



Oh sure, the series were sorted.... somewhat. But then you had Yoshi right in the middle of the Mario characters for some reason despite having his own series icon. And the clones in their own section. And the DLC in its. And don't get me started on the 3DS.

I really don't agree on that comparison with 4. Yoshi might be odd but he is honestly more of a Mario character nowadays than the rep of the Yoshi series. It was also just one odd thing in the grand scheme of things and the organisation felt better.
I understand the logic behind Ultimate, it's not random. But Sheik before Zelda, Pokemon placed left, right, top, bottom, Mario so far away from Luigi...
I just want the option, when I want to do battles with characters from the same game, it's not that easy to find all of them.
Really it was a weird choice on Sakurai's theme to decided on this order for the CSS instead of the classic one.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

Yeah, but then Wario doesn't follow that logic, who also debuted in a Mario game. He's put at the end of the Mario characters because he's considered his own series. It's inconsistent and bad.

I know! It’s weird!

Also, is it bad that I liked Smash 4 Wii U’s Classic Mode?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I know! It’s weird!

Also, is it bad that I liked Smash 4 Wii U’s Classic Mode?

Really, the thing with 4's Classic mode is that it's not the worst concept for a game type... but its just not a real classic mode. Have one that played like Ultimate's and rename 4's to something else, and it possibly ends up better regarded.

It's certainly still above Smash Tour in that it's at least comprehensible and not a complete waste of its concept.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Once the DLC is over, I just want the options to sort character by series.
I still find it odd not to have all Mario or Pokemon characters next to each other.

As much as I dislike the current way the CSS is sorted....


At least it's not as bad as Smash 4's.



Oh sure, the series were sorted.... somewhat. But then you had Yoshi right in the middle of the Mario characters for some reason despite having his own series icon. And the clones in their own section. And the DLC in its. And don't get me started on the 3DS.

What would you think of this:

Spoiler

_____________

It's not a perfect mock-up nor is it a perfect layout, but at least it would be easier to find characters by series.

EDIT: Figured out the issue: They're normally in rows of 13, not 12.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sheik debuted in Smash before Zelda. That's not inconsistent. It's literally reveal order. For every single character, except Echoes, who are the sole exceptions. And they at least make sense as exceptions, because of stacking. Otherwise, they should be in a different order. But since they have the same number but a little letter by them, they make sense where they are. Mii Fighters are at the end only because they aren't always active on the respective CSS unless a character was made. But they're still before the DLC too, so it works out.

Seems way better than Smash 4, which is all over the place. Yoshi should've been after Bowser Jr. At least the clones are consistent due to being a special last minute situation. DLC is consistently in order too. Mii Fighters are way at the end as normal.

What Ultimate and Smash 4 lacks is a "Organize CSS by series button" instead. It'd just put everyone in release order, but also series. So starting with Mario, then Yoshi, then Wario, etc. Could also have it do alphabetical even(DLC and Mii Fighters would most likely be separated either way, though, but don't have to be).

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

At this point, we really should have the ability to sort the CSS however we want. If I prefer the roster in alphabetical order or by their cool alts ranking, then by gum that should be my right.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Sheik debuted in Smash before Zelda. That's not inconsistent. It's literally reveal order.

Nobody said it was inconsistent, just insinuated that it felt wrong. Once you establish an order for something the other way around just doesn't sound right, like Mythra/Pyra or Ivysaur, Squirtle, Charizard...I wonder if there's a term for that.

Mii Fighters are at the end only because they aren't always active on the respective CSS unless a character was made. But they're still before the DLC too, so it works out.

They're after the DLC actually. I do think it's because of their nature of being custom characters though.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

At this point, we really should have the ability to sort the CSS however we want. If I prefer the roster in alphabetical order or by their cool alts ranking, then by gum that should be my right.

We have to start a petition online for Sakurai acknowleding our needs for a clean CSS. Let our voices be heard!

Sheik debuted in Smash before Zelda. That's not inconsistent. It's literally reveal order.

OK, I never said it was incosistent, I even said it was logical with the order they followed. But seeing Sheik before Zelda still feels extremely wrong, especially when Zelda was always considered the original character whose Sheik is a transformation of, even back in Melee.

 

[N3ON]

Idk, I think Ultimate's CSS is far less intuitive than 4's. 4's isn't perfect; the clones being annexed at the bottom is strange, but Yoshi and Wario's placement, while a little inconsistent with how Smash labels them, isn't galling or anything. They're Mario characters and they're with the Mario characters. And I'm used to DLC being tacked on to the UI, especially in fighting games.

From a theoretical perspective Ultimate's DLC is in a good order - it's all numbered by debut (plus echoes). And that makes sense, it's just... that's not the way anyone other than the dev team and maybe diehard fans naturally sort the characters themselves. I've played with more casual fans, and they have a hell of a time finding the character they're looking for. To them, things are in no discernable order. And I can totally understand that. Even to me, though I'm used to the screen, sorting by series would be infinitely easier, even if it had a few anomalies like 4's.

 

[MasterCheef]

At this point, we really should have the ability to sort the CSS however we want. If I prefer the roster in alphabetical order or by their cool alts ranking, then by gum that should be my right.

I just want to be able to put all my favorite characters in a row. I also want to put all the trash characters on their own row.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nobody said it was inconsistent, just insinuated that it felt wrong. Once you establish an order for something the other way around just doesn't sound right, like Mythra/Pyra or Ivysaur, Squirtle, Charizard...I wonder if there's a term for that.

I guess I grouped the sentences together more than I meant. Basically, the order isn't remotely inconsistent in Ultimate(just 4). I don't think it feels wrong either way. Sheik basically is when Zelda fights, so should be first. That, and finding out Zelda is Sheik comes after to begin with. They actually make sense logically for story reasons too. OOT-wise, anyway. Sheik actually does debut before Adult Zelda in OOT as well.

They're after the DLC actually. I do think it's because of their nature of being custom characters though.

I know they're before DLC in Smash 3DS. Not sure on Wii U, though. But yeah, them being at the way end still makes sense, because of the custom/not always there factor. Only thing they need to be before is obviously the Random button.

 

[Dan Quixote]

I like the ordering of the CSS. Assigning every fighter a number based on when they debuted was a pretty epic way to sell the "ultimate" factor of the game.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Ultimate not having an option to make the CSS ordered by series instead of appearance is something I know shouldn’t get on my nerves, but still does anyway. It’d be such a small addition but I would really like to have it.

I want to see all the Metroid Characters bundled next to each other as a reminder about how its roster representation doubled (or tripled depending how you look at it) between games. To see Sephiroth and Cloud next to each other would be a treat.

 

[Gengar84]

I think that Yoshi represents both his own series as well as the Mario series. My thought are if the character regularly appears in Mario spinoff games, they are Mario characters even if they have their own separate series. Yoshi even more so since he appears in many mainline Mario games and still does to this day.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

Idk, I think Ultimate's CSS is far less intuitive than 4's. 4's isn't perfect; the clones being annexed at the bottom is strange, but Yoshi and Wario's placement, while a little inconsistent with how Smash labels them, isn't galling or anything. They're Mario characters and they're with the Mario characters. And I'm used to DLC being tacked on to the UI, especially in fighting games.

From a theoretical perspective Ultimate's DLC is in a good order - it's all numbered by debut (plus echoes). And that makes sense, it's just... that's not the way anyone other than the dev team and maybe diehard fans naturally sort the characters themselves. I've played with more casual fans, and they have a hell of a time finding the character they're looking for. To them, things are in no discernable order. And I can totally understand that. Even to me, though I'm used to the screen, sorting by series would be infinitely easier, even if it had a few anomalies like 4's.

That's exactly why it's weird. Even if I've played all Smash games, I still find it difficult to find who I want to play in this pretty huge roster. I also don't find it as appealing as previous games.
But when I play with my friends, who have basic knowledge about the Smash series, it's already hard just to find who you want to play as.
At least it does point to one thing, Ultimate really was a thank you gift for long-time fans of the game (if it wasn't obvious already with Everyon is here but details like this are neat too). Three years later though give us the option to sort it back, Mashed Potatoes Samurai.

 

[Idon]

Smash 4 has inconsistencies true, but it was overall organized. There's a few "quirks" at most.

Ultimate's organization where nothing makes sense to anyone who isn't explicitly a Smash historian is.... well, meaningless to most people.
It's an entirely random sorting system that only serves to push how quirky and unique the game is, at the expense of actual practicality just like Smash's Online and Ranking system.

That said, CSS order is like, the least of Ultimate's issues as far as I'm concerned. I've got a few more issues with stuff that makes me want to reconsider actually turning it on to play it lol.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I know they're before DLC in Smash 3DS. Not sure on Wii U, though. But yeah, them being at the way end still makes sense, because of the custom/not always there factor. Only thing they need to be before is obviously the Random button.

Oh OK I thought you were still talking about Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Yeah they appear after on Super Smash Bros. for Wii U as well, and are probably before the DLC on it's partner game due to the fact that the DLC is on a separate page.

 

[N3ON]

That's exactly why it's weird. Even if I've played all Smash games, I still find it difficult to find who I want to play in this pretty huge roster. I also don't find it as appealing as previous games.
But when I play with my friends, who have basic knowledge about the Smash series, it's already hard just to find who you want to play as.
At least it does point to one thing, Ultimate really was a thank you gift for long-time fans of the game (if it wasn't obvious already with Everyon is here but details like this are neat too). Three years later though give us the option to sort it back, Mashed Potatoes Samurai.

Yeah, I think it would've been a neat option for Smash dorks who can get in the weeds and appreciate the characters being ordered by debut, but considering the majority of players may not even realize there is an order, especially if they only started with a more recent Smash, I think sorting by series should've been the default.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah, I think it would've been a neat option for Smash dorks who can get in the weeds and appreciate the characters being ordered by debut, but considering the majority of players may not even realize there is an order, especially if they only started with a more recent Smash, I think sorting by series should've been the default.

Yeah, I think the stages have the same issue where it's hard to find any particular one. Granted, I don't generally do that so maybe I just haven't learned where each stage is, but I don't think the organization helps.

 

[SKX31]

At this point, we really should have the ability to sort the CSS however we want. If I want the roster in alphabetical order or by their cool alts ranking, then by god that should be my right.

Or hell, being able to fully customize the CSS - not just sorting, but also including the ability to resize icons (would need multiple CSS slots - including a space for the default one - and a CSS editor though, so one doesn't need to fear screwing things up)

And yes I'm referring to my MW, Dota 2 (the pics are 6 and 2 years old respectively, so several patches out of date, but still proves my point):





Normal CSS looks like this, with the characters / heroes sorted by primary attribute (Strength / Agility / Intelligence), then by alphabetical order. And it has something Smash could also use - default categories by character type (chosing the category highlights the specific heroes, for example Support highlight Support heroes) and the ability to customize categories:

Smash 4 has inconsistencies true, but it was overall organized. There's a few "quirks" at most.

Ultimate's organization where nothing makes sense to anyone who isn't explicitly a Smash historian is.... well, meaningless to most people.
It's an entirely random sorting system that only serves to push how quirky and unique the game is, at the expense of actual practicality just like Smash's Online and Ranking system.

That said, CSS order is like, the least of Ultimate's issues as far as I'm concerned. I've got a few more issues with stuff that makes me want to reconsider actually turning it on to play it lol.

Outside of the online / ranking system (yeah, it's been beaten to hell and back at this point, but for good reason) which are you thinking of primarily if I may ask that?

 

[Eldrake]

Or hell, being able to fully customize the CSS - not just sorting, but also including the ability to resize icons (would need multiple CSS slots - including a space for the default one - and a CSS editor though, so one doesn't need to fear screwing things up)

And yes I'm referring to my MW, Dota 2 (the pics are 6 and 2 years old respectively, so several patches out of date, but still proves my point):

View attachment 328411

View attachment 328413

Normal CSS looks like this, with the characters / heroes sorted by primary attribute (Strength / Agility / Intelligence), then by alphabetical order. And it has something Smash could also use - default categories by character type (chosing the category highlights the specific heroes, for example Support highlight Support heroes) and the ability to customize categories:

View attachment 328415



Outside of the online / ranking system (yeah, it's been beaten to hell and back at this point, but for good reason) which are you thinking of primarily if I may ask that?

Alright, what kind of inhumane monster did you borrow the above screenshot from?

 

[Shroob]

Alright, what kind of inhumane monster did you borrow the above screenshot from?

Someone who can stomach MOBAs.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And it has something Smash could also use - default categories by character type (chosing the category highlights the specific heroes, for example Support highlight Support heroes) and the ability to customize categories:

So like, you click on a character and everyone of the same archetype lights up? I'm not sure that would work with multiple players sharing a character select screen (and also there are a few weird and ambiguous characters that would likely be categorized wrong or fit multiple categories).

 

[3BitSaurus]

Really, the thing with 4's Classic mode is that it's not the worst concept for a game type... but its just not a real classic mode. Have one that played like Ultimate's and rename 4's to something else, and it possibly ends up better regarded.

It's certainly still above Smash Tour in that it's at least comprehensible and not a complete waste of its concept.

I mean, imagine a remake of that mode with stuff a la roguelike. Getting the choice of different paths which would net you different buffs and maybe even items for completing stages. Maybe even make a full "floor" system with a boss at the end of each, like:

1. Floor 1: 3 stages + Giga Bowser
2. Floor 2: 5 Stages + Galleom
3. Floor 3: 7 Stages + Rathalos

...and so on. Could actually be interesting, like an endurance mode even tougher than Boss Rush.

r hell, being able to fully customize the CSS - not just sorting, but also including the ability to resize icons (would need multiple CSS slots - including a space for the default one - and a CSS editor though, so one doesn't need to fear screwing things up)

And yes I'm referring to my MW, Dota 2 (the pics are 6 and 2 years old respectively, so several patches out of date, but still proves my point):





Normal CSS looks like this, with the characters / heroes sorted by primary attribute (Strength / Agility / Intelligence), then by alphabetical order. And it has something Smash could also use - default categories by character type (chosing the category highlights the specific heroes, for example Support highlight Support heroes) and the ability to customize categories:

Looks at the first screenshot

...Man, Dota 2 is wild, innit?

 

[SKX31]

Alright, what kind of inhumane monster did you borrow the above screenshot from?

The first one was a Techies picker, source here. I mean, if you're going to commit to the psychopathic art of planting invisible mines everywhere, you might as well go whole hog.

Someone who can stomach MOBAs.

Oh no, playing Techies is a special kind of dark magic where you not only stomach MOBAs, but also - most of the time - go for trollish turtling. at least has the decency to end games early win or lose - even when Techies lose they tend to slow matches down to a crawl.

I mean, they have a minefield sign that ordinarily does nothing (which is potentially trollish enough) - but it can be upgraded mid-match to make any nearby mines immune to invis detection (the normal way of clearing their mines and traps). Sure, long cooldown on that sign, but devastating still.

Then again Dota 2's the kind of game where every character is broken in at least one aspect of the game, so it evens out.

So like, you click on a character and everyone of the same archetype lights up? I'm not sure that would work with multiple players sharing a character select screen (and also there are a few weird and ambiguous characters that would likely be categorized wrong or fit multiple categories).

Yeah, it does do that - and ordinarily it has a blue highlight. That's a valid point though - I think the best solution there would be to have it light up in the player's color (if Player 1 selects a highlight the CSS boxes / edges are tinted red, etc).

Besides, the weird / ambiguous cases? Dota 2 is filled with them (characters can play multiple roles depending on patch) and Valve has the unfortunate tendency of letting certain things go out of date. I'm used to it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Here's a thing I did for speculation on the last character:

• Who I want: Sora, Eggman, BWD (I'm more torn on Crash)
• Who I think it'll be: Anyone who hasn't been deconfirmed yet
• Who would be possible: No idea
• Who I feel is unlikely: Anyone who has been deconfirmed or otherwise may not make it
• Who would be funny: Phoenix Wright
• Who I don't want: Any Assist Trophy

• Who I want: Brian, Fulgore, Agumon, Master Chief
• Who I think it'll be: Definitely can't say. It's too all over the place. Spirit, Assist Trophy, it's pretty up in the air. Etc.
• Who would be possible: Almost anyone, as long as they are from a game series, anyway.
• Who I feel is unlikely: Any Mii costumes from Pass 2. That's really it for me.
• Who would be funny: Bubsy
• Who I don't want: Any character who was created as a meme(I.E. Pepe). Ones like Goku are still characters I could legit like, because they actually are a normal character from a media series. I'm kind of iffy on Frisk otherwise, but I can't deny that they could have a really unique moveset either. Undertale is amazing.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Oh no, playing Techies is a special kind of dark magic where you not only stomach MOBAs, but also go for trollish turtling. at least has the decency to either snowball or blow up - even when Techies lose they tend to slow matches down to a crawl.

I mean, they have a minefield sign that ordinarily does nothing (which is potentially trollish enough) - but it can be upgraded mid-match to make any nearby mines immune to invis detection (the normal way of clearing their mines and traps).

Then again Dota 2's the kind of game where every character is broken in at least one aspect of the game, so it evens out.

...What does it say about my character if I said I wish you could make Teemo's shrooms immune to detection by Wards or Lens?

I mean, he still wouldn't be able to carry games, but he'd be a lot more fun. For me, I mean.

 

[WahHahaha]

Hot take: Waluigi and Toad are the 2 most glaring omissions from the roster and deserved to get in before characters like Terry, Min Min, Byleth and Piranha Plant, and arguably the majority of the DLC characters we got besides maybe Steve.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Hot take: Waluigi and Toad are the 2 most glaring omissions from the roster and deserved to get in before characters like Terry, Min Min, Byleth and Piranha Plant, and arguably the majority of the DLC characters we got besides maybe Steve.

Not saying I disagree with you but I fully support the addition of characters from 1st party franchises that have no reps yet much more than adding even more characters from a franchise with adequate representation.

 

[WahHahaha]

Not saying I disagree with you but I fully support the addition of characters from 1st party franchises that have no reps yet much more than adding even more characters from a franchise with adequate representation.

Yeah I was just saying that they are the most glaring omissions, not saying it's better to get characters from 1st parties that already have a lot of characters in smash, just that they objectively deserve it more since Mario has such a big presence on the switch and those 2 are huge characters in it. I'm shocked they aren't in honestly. Toad should have been added in Brawl and Waluigi should have been added in Smash 4.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yeah, it does do that - and ordinarily it has a blue highlight. That's a valid point though - I think the best solution there would be to have it light up in the player's color (if Player 1 selects a highlight the CSS boxes / edges are tinted red, etc).

That would turn the screen into a rainbow when you get enough players though. There'd just be too much visual noise IMO. I think a simple category on the character portraits would be better (though it would still have the issue of covering up team fighters if not positioned correctly).

You could also do a full blurb like Guilty Gear Strive (though probably only for 4 or less players). Something like:

The Blue Bomber
Walking Arsenal

King of Koopas
Unstoppable Powerhouse

Balloon in the Breeze
Evasive Aerial Attacker

This idea could be the most helpful for telling you what's what about the character before you play them rather than a binary "this is an offensive/rushdown character, this one's a defensive/zoner character, etc." Though again, it likely wouldn't fit for long depending on how many players there are. Perhaps the truncated, more simplified categories could replace the blurb when too many players are present? I dunno.

 

[Idon]

Outside of the online / ranking system (yeah, it's been beaten to hell and back at this point, but for good reason) which are you thinking of primarily if I may ask that?

Gameplay stuff.

The input delay, the overly long buffers, the sticky ledges, the unresponsive c-stick, the shorthop macro, and well, the online as already stated.

 

[Paraster]

Here's a thing I did for speculation on the last character:

• Who I want: Sora, Eggman, BWD (I'm more torn on Crash)
• Who I think it'll be: Anyone who hasn't been deconfirmed yet
• Who would be possible: No idea
• Who I feel is unlikely: Anyone who has been deconfirmed or otherwise may not make it
• Who would be funny: Phoenix Wright
• Who I don't want: Any Assist Trophy

• Who I want: Quote, Frisk, Papyrus, Tabuu, Bandana Dee
• Who I think it'll be: Reimu
• Who would be possible: Crash, Rayman, Master Chief
• Who I feel is unlikely: Neku (sadly), Nahobino
• Who would be funny: Untitled Goose
• Who I don't want: Characters that are nothing more than "basic human with gun" (exceptions: Heavy due to personality, Gordon due to alien tech; both are also rather historically significant)

 

[kylexv]

Just spitting out my thoughts on the current discussion.

Custom CSS ordering would be a great addition, although I could see it being an issue when playing on a Switch other than your own that may have a different roster ordering set. Although I personally don't mind the way it's ordered now (and it saves the developers from the headache that occurred with the DLC characters screwing with the roster order in Smash 4), I can see why a lot of players would prefer it ordered differently. Although I can instinctively remember the approximate location of each character, the casual fan isn't going to know that and it may take them a good 30 seconds or so to find Pit, for example.