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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Baba

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This is only somewhat related to the CSS, but I always thought this was weird-
How come stages have an on/off toggle for random selection but characters don't?

You should absolutely be able to turn each character on/off for random selection. I almost never pick random because there are so many characters in the game that I don't enjoy playing as. If I could turn on just the ones I like for random that would be so nice. I feel like this feature is long overdue.

It would have to be tied to your profile though.
 
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CommanderZaktan

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Just spitting out my thoughts on the current discussion.

Custom CSS ordering would be a great addition, although I could see it being an issue when playing on a Switch other than your own that may have a different roster ordering set. Although I personally don't mind the way it's ordered now (and it saves the developers from the headache that occurred with the DLC characters screwing with the roster order in Smash 4), I can see why a lot of players would prefer it ordered differently. Although I can instinctively remember the approximate location of each character, the casual fan isn't going to know that and it may take them a good 30 seconds or so to find Pit, for example.
Maybe by series or year of these characters were introduced?
 

Þe 1 → Way

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A lot of Ultimates UI could use some updates. Putting the Hazards Off toggle in rules instead of the SSS makes it extremely annoying to use them. They should be selectable the same way Battlefield and Omega forms are accessed.

Also, I’ll kill someone if it means we get a rematch button.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Hot take: Waluigi and Toad are the 2 most glaring omissions from the roster and deserved to get in before characters like Terry, Min Min, Byleth and Piranha Plant, and arguably the majority of the DLC characters we got besides maybe Steve.
Say it with me class.

"You don't have to tear down other characters to build the ones you like up. It just makes you seem insecure and petty."
 

SNEKeater

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Hot take: Waluigi and Toad are the 2 most glaring omissions from the roster and deserved to get in before characters like Terry, Min Min, Byleth and Piranha Plant, and arguably the majority of the DLC characters we got besides maybe Steve.
That's wrong. My most wanteds are the most glaring omissions in the game, and deserved to get in before the characters I like the least.
 

7NATOR

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Hot take: Waluigi and Toad are the 2 most glaring omissions from the roster and deserved to get in before characters like Terry, Min Min, Byleth and Piranha Plant, and arguably the majority of the DLC characters we got besides maybe Steve.
I could see the Argument for it. Waluigi is not the most important character within the Mario Franchise, and ultimately is just an extra within a series that's already gained pretty much it's main cast and then some

Having said that, Mario is a big franchise, and Nintendo Fans probably are more familiar with Waluigi then a character like Min Min, Byleth, Pyra/Mythra, Terry, etc, and Since Mario is already represented within the game, people playing Smash are gonna be asking where Waluigi is

And this especially goes for Toad since he's been a big part of the Mario Series, unlike Waluigi. I guess what I'll say is that if people were looking at the Base roster, More people would be wondering where Toad or Waluigi is, rather than Byleth, Terry, and Especially Piranha Plant (if they didn't get pre-order)

I would argue for Steve, Hero, and to a lesser extent Sephiroth. Steve with Minecraft doesn't really need much explanation. Dragon Quest has had a large history with Nintendo, and is a phenomenon in Japan, so Japanese fans might have been asking for where Hero was. FF7 is not a game that's heavily associated with Nintendo, but it has been a high selling game on the Eshop, it's popular game in general, Final Fantasy as a Series is popular, and Cloud is already in the game, so you might get people asking about Sephiroth also

With all of this being said though, I think even if Waluigi and Toad might be more glaring omissions than some of the characters we've gotten so far, I don't think that automatically entitles them to a Roster spot, especially through DLC. There's just more that goes into creating a Fighter in Smash than just the Popularity and Iconic status of characters. There's a reason I don't see the most requests for Toad, despite how well known the character is, is all I would say

The characters we've gotten, while on the surface might not be seen as Glaring of a omission than characters like Toad and Waluigi, What they add to the game perhaps could be more than what those 2 characters can add, whether it be through the game/Franchise represented, Audience it covers, the moveset, Abilities and personality represented, Legacy and history, etc. Kazuya might not have been a character I think Casuals will go on and say "Where's this guy" since Tekken is not a franchise that's commonly associated with the Audience playing Smash, but that's part of the reason that Kazuya being in Smash adds so much. It's a different beast from what we've gotten yes

In regards to Waluigi specifically, I think though he's got many merits in terms of Joining Smash in actuality. In spite of him not being the most important character in the Mario Franchise, and perhaps Lack of Concrete idea being him in regards to the moveset (Even though he has abilities to use, it's just hard to find an anchor to tie it all together), The fact of the matter is that he's a very popular character both in and outside of Smash, and that Reggie went to go Talk to Sakurai about the possiblity of Waluigi in Smash. I think it would be wrong to make Waluigi out to be a unattainable preposition since he has way more going for him than against him. Will he be in FP2, I'm not sure, there are alot of characters.

Also I'll interject a little of a hot take here also, but a 2nd Sonic character is also one of the biggest omissions on the Roster right now
 

Megadoomer

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Hot take: Waluigi and Toad are the 2 most glaring omissions from the roster and deserved to get in before characters like Terry, Min Min, Byleth and Piranha Plant, and arguably the majority of the DLC characters we got besides maybe Steve.
"Deserve" is a loaded word that (when it comes to Smash speculation) tends to mean "I'm familiar with (character X), which means that I think they should take priority over (character Y), who I'm not familiar with."

If you haven't, then I'd suggest giving games like ARMS, King of Fighters '98, or Fire Emblem: Three Houses a try, or at least look into videos of them. (admittedly, I wasn't a fan of ARMS from the free trial that they had, but I can see why people are attached to the characters, even if I find the gameplay to be uninteresting)

I don't agree with all of the DLC picks (for me, Fighters Pass 2 has felt a little lackluster compared to Fighters Pass 1, and even if they were obligated to add a Fire Emblem character from Three Houses, I felt like Byleth was the worst choice of the main characters, even if I could see why they went with him), but it helps to be informed rather than saying that all of the DLC characters but Steve don't "deserve" to be in Smash.

Regardless, the whole concept of Smash speculation is very opinionated to begin with - some people would prefer to get new series (like Persona, Banjo-Kazooie, Dragon Quest, Tekken, etc.) into Smash and encouraging people to look into games or franchises that they might not be familiar with, rather than adding a tenth Mario character.
 
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perfectchaos83

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Well I don't see why not. Street Fighter's been doing it in 3D since 2008, if not earlier
View attachment 328394
Would be as simple as teleporting the weapon to the other hand depending on where they're facing, not so much different than how Byleth teleports everything he has from nothing.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure Vega actually does physically change the hand his claw is in when he changes direction. It's been years since I played SFIV or V, but That's what I remember happening to "justify" the mirror.
 

Shroob

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At the end of the day, no one character 'deserves' to be in Smash over another, that's entirely personal bias, and frankly an unmeasurable notion. How does one count "deservedness"? Iconicness? Popularity? Game sales? If those were all that mattered, we'd have a much, much different roster than what we have now.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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To be fair, I'm pretty sure Vega actually does physically change the hand his claw is in when he changes direction. It's been years since I played SFIV or V, but That's what I remember happening to "justify" the mirror.
Funny how they'd add an animation so that a weapon doesn't teleport, but have a scar switch sides for no reason other than "that's how it looked before" (assuming that it's true).
 

FreeFox

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At the end of the day, no one character 'deserves' to be in Smash over another, that's entirely personal bias, and frankly an unmeasurable notion. How does one count "deservedness"? Iconicness? Popularity? Game sales? If those were all that mattered, we'd have a much, much different roster than what we have now.
I wouldnt know about that. I have a pretty good way to measure hypeness. It has never failed me. Its this chart

Is this a character I want? ---->Yes------>Hype
|
|
\|/
No--->Not hype. Add my favorite instead!

Flawless, right? :4pacman:
 

WahHahaha

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At the end of the day, no one character 'deserves' to be in Smash over another, that's entirely personal bias, and frankly an unmeasurable notion. How does one count "deservedness"? Iconicness? Popularity? Game sales? If those were all that mattered, we'd have a much, much different roster than what we have now.
Just because we have the roster we have right now, doesn't mean there aren't characters who deserve to be on the roster more than the ones we have, it's pretty clear that there are some characters who deserve to be in a crossover of this scale more than others. For example, new nintendo characters like Min Min, Corrin, Pyra/Mythra and Byleth don't deserve it at all.

The only point I was trying to argue was that, from an objective standpoint, the 2 biggest characters left in the biggest Nintendo franchise, and also the biggest gaming franchise in the world deserve to be in the game more than a lot of the DLC characters and should have been added a long time ago.


Also another hot take because why not. Tier lists are pointless and players are the ones that are good, not characters. Unless there's something game breaking about a character like Meta Knight from Brawl, you won't get boosted by a character.
 
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FreeFox

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Just because we have the roster we have right now, doesn't mean there aren't characters who deserve to be on the roster more than the ones we have, it's pretty clear that there are some characters who deserve to be in a crossover of this scale more than others. For example, new nintendo characters like Min Min, Corrin, Pyra/Mythra and Byleth don't deserve it at all.

The only point I was trying to argue was that, from an objective standpoint, the 2 biggest characters left in the biggest Nintendo franchise, and also the biggest gaming franchise in the world deserve to be in the game more than a lot of the DLC characters and should have been added a long time ago.
Wrong! The biggest franchise in the world is Pokemon. If you are going to be objective, the Pokemon should be the one getting more fighters.
 

Shroob

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Just because we have the roster we have right now, doesn't mean there aren't characters who deserve to be on the roster more than the ones we have, it's pretty clear that there are some characters who deserve to be in a crossover of this scale more than others. For example, new nintendo characters like Min Min, Corrin, Pyra/Mythra and Byleth don't deserve it at all.

The only point I was trying to argue was that, from an objective standpoint, the 2 biggest characters left in the biggest Nintendo franchise, and also the biggest gaming franchise in the world deserve to be in the game more than a lot of the DLC characters and should have been added a long time ago.


Also another hot take because why not. Tier lists are pointless and players are the ones that are good, not characters. Unless there's something game breaking about a character like Meta Knight from Brawl, you won't get boosted by a character.
Says who?



You're looking at this from your own biased perspective, when the answer is no character "deserves" to get in period. They get in because they get in. Master Chief does not "deserve" to get in. Crash does not "deserve" to get in. Geno does not "deserve" to get in. No one deserves anything.
 

WahHahaha

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Says who?



You're looking at this from your own biased perspective, when the answer is no character "deserves" to get in period. They get in because they get in. Master Chief does not "deserve" to get in. Crash does not "deserve" to get in. Geno does not "deserve" to get in. No one deserves anything.
I told you it wasn't my perspective. I'm looking at it like an average Nintendo Switch player or gamer would. Your second point might have been right if Smash Ultimate wasn't framed as a crossover, since it is, and they are now getting as many recognizable characters in the game as possible. There are characters who deserve it more.
 
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FreeFox

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I told you it wasn't my perspective. I'm looking at it like an average Nintendo Switch player or gamer would.
Dodging my post because it doesnt align with your argument? Pokemon is the bigger franchise and if you want to be "objective", Pokemon should have more fighters before Toad and Waluigi.
 

WahHahaha

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Dodging my post because it doesnt align with your argument? Pokemon is the bigger franchise and if you want to be "objective", Pokemon should have more fighters before Toad and Waluigi.


"Best selling game franchises"

Number #1 Mario: $758 million

Number #5 Pokemon $380 Million


so no, Pokemon is not the biggest franchise going by sales numbers. It's below Call of Duty and only slightly ahead of GTA. Does that mean CJ and random COD protagonist #55 should be playable?
 

Shroob

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I told you it wasn't my perspective. I'm looking at it like an average Nintendo Switch player or gamer would. Your second point might have been right if Smash Ultimate wasn't framed as a crossover, since it is, and they are now getting as many recognizable characters in the game as possible. There are characters who deserve it more.
Again, says who.

A character being a big name does not given them instant deservedness to be in Smash.
 

WahHahaha

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Again, says who.

A character being a big name does not given them instant deservedness to be in Smash.
A character being a big name from a franchise that is prevelant on switch and is the biggest gaming franchise in the world absolutely does make them deserve it more than Anime Waifu #1 and #2 and long armed noodle girl from dead game that nobody cares about.
 

WahHahaha

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If we went by sales we would be on our 5th Tetris character
That wasn't the main thing I was talking about. I was talking about highest selling franchises on switch and THEN highest selling franchises in the world. The only reason I brought up the wikipedia article of highest selling game franchises was because someone tried to argue that Pokemon was bigger.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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Just because we have the roster we have right now, doesn't mean there aren't characters who deserve to be on the roster more than the ones we have, it's pretty clear that there are some characters who deserve to be in a crossover of this scale more than others. For example, new nintendo characters like Min Min, Corrin, Pyra/Mythra and Byleth don't deserve it at all.
Ah yes, Min Min and Pyra/Mythra, those new Nintendo characters from...
reads notes
...4 years ago.
 

Sucumbio

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There's no real way to measure which video game characters are more deserving than others. To suggest otherwise is to assume your opinion is somehow more "correct" than someone else's and we know from experience this is both logically fallacious and frankly off putting.

Tiers.... Ugh. Don't even. Please.
 

FreeFox

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"Best selling game franchises"

Number #1 Mario: $758 million

Number #5 Pokemon $380 Million


so no, Pokemon is not the biggest franchise going by sales numbers. It's below Call of Duty and only slightly ahead of GTA. Does that mean CJ and random COD protagonist #55 should be playable?
And here is the list of the biggest franchises in the world.

Pokemon 105 billion
Mario 34.8 B billion.

So, you were saying?
 

Shroob

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"Best selling game franchises"

Number #1 Mario: $758 million

Number #5 Pokemon $380 Million


so no, Pokemon is not the biggest franchise going by sales numbers. It's below Call of Duty and only slightly ahead of GTA. Does that mean CJ and random COD protagonist #55 should be playable?
You're ignoring that Pokemon isn't just the games.


It's also the anime and merch.

 

WahHahaha

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Are you Sakurai?
Am I Nintendo? No, I'm not. Sakurai just goes with what Nintendo says and makes it work for the most part. Also there are plenty of characters that I don't necessarily think he should have added even though he clearly is a genius game developer.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Your second point might have been right if Smash Ultimate wasn't framed as a crossover, since it is, and they are now getting as many recognizable characters in the game as possible. There are characters who deserve it more.
That's the thing though: Recognizably isn't their top priority. If it was than a lot of characters wouldn't be here to the point where it would probably be smaller than it is should that have been the case.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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Also, Pokemon selling less copies doesn't mean it's a smaller series because Pokemon has a television anime that's been running since the 90s, makes its own films, has a hugely successful trading card game, merchandise, and is all around a multinational, multimedia juggernaut.

But I got :ultgreninja: 'd already, so there's that.
 

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Also another hot take because why not. Tier lists are pointless and players are the ones that are good, not characters. Unless there's something game breaking about a character like Meta Knight from Brawl, you won't get boosted by a character.
Tier list discourse in 2021?

Some characters are just objectively better than others. That is the nature of fighting games. Despite how masterfully balanced Ultimate is (seriously I think the team at Bamco cast some dark magic to make it work), some characters fall short. I think what people forget is that tier lists in theory are supposed to be a reference for if two people had equal skill at the game, which character would be better. But it's not as simple as X is better than Y and Z thus X>Y>Z. Individual matchups are important. Pikachu is partially as high tier in Brawl as he is simply because he goes even against the best character in the game, Meta Knight. I think every other character might have a losing match up against him. The meta (heh) is so MK centric it results in Pika being high tier. Does that mean that pikachu is hard and fast better than everything below him? Not necessarily.

Tier lists are really only applicable at high level competitive play. Of course it doesn't make a difference in casual matches with friends. But to say the "don't exist" is downright foolish. At the end of the day, play who you want to play, but it's a simple as some characters just having better tools than others.

I thought we left behind this era of ignorance of how tiers work. Glad the days of casual elitism seems to have subsided. People want to play competitive? Great! if not, that's great too.

But on the topic of newcomer speculation, "deserving" is such an subjective term that I wish we could throw it out from Smash speculation, alongside the word "shill".
 

WahHahaha

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We are talking about everything. If it sells better overall, it mean it is the bigger franchise. That is just a fact.
Ok. You can make up your own fictitious argument that doesn't even address what I was trying to say in the first place. If it makes you comfortable then go for it.
 
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