Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[WahHahaha]

I don't think Sakurai ever even said anything about SMT prior to the Persona 4 anniversary pic on Twitter.

No. He said something during the Sakurai presents or an atlas interview about not being sure where SMT ended and Persona began, classifying them as 2 separate franchises. I'm paraphrasing but you can look it up and find it if you want

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

To be honest, there is some fun to be had in finding the minor appearances of characters in Nintendo games to hypothetically justify their inclusion in Smash. Raiden from Metal Gear is one of my favorites, as none of his mainline MGS games were ever on a Nintendo console... but he did pop up in Evolution Skateboarding for Gamecube, Super Bomberman R for Switch, and was sticker/spirit cameos in SSSB & Ultimate respectively.

The image of Sakurai seeing Raiden skateboarding in a near 20-year-old game and silently nodding that he may now be developed for Smash does make me laugh.

 

[Will]

No. He said something during the Sakurai presents or an atlas interview about not being sure where Persona ended and SMT began, classifying them as 2 separate franchise. I'm paraphrasing but you can look it up and find it if you want

By now they're definitely separate franchises with completely unique and different characteristics, but we all know it originated as a spinoff. Even the PSP port of the orignial 1996 game slapped it on the title.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

I don't think Sakurai ever even said anything about SMT prior to the Persona 4 anniversary pic on Twitter.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

You are incorrect.

 

[Shroob]

It still makes no sense to me how Geno became so popular with the Smash community. I loved Super Mario RPG but I would have never even considered him for Smash. I barely even used Geno since my party was usually Mario, Peach, and Bowser. I’m a big supporter of side characters but Geno is the only one that really got much attention. Where’s the love for Magus or Xemnas? I’m not saying there is really anything wrong with wanting Geno it’s just that I always found his huge support confusing.

Geno's fandom is weird tbh. And I don't mean that in an inflammatory way, but the way it grew is honestly strange.


It started in Brawl obviously, when people got their hands on the "If there was a Smash 2" poll, and saw Geno was on it, and sometime after Brawl iirc, Sakurai was interviewed and mentioned that Geno would be cool "Because he has a gun for a hand."


During this era, Super Mario RPG was having a bit of a resurgence of popularity due to both the Japanese "Super Mario RPG, it is the only one just for me.", and on the American side, you had the famous "Forest Rawest" vid that spawned from said Japanese meme.


And from there, it just kinda.... grew?

 

[WahHahaha]

By now they're definitely separate franchises with completely unique and different characteristics, but we all know it originated as a spinoff. Even the PSP port of the orignial 1996 game slapped it on the title.

View attachment 327723

I was just responding to him saying that Sakurai might of viewed Persona and SMT as the same franchise. I know Persona counts as a spinoff, and it is viewed as its own franchise now.

 

[N3ON]

It still makes no sense to me how Geno became so popular with the Smash community. I loved Super Mario RPG but I would have never even considered him for Smash. I barely even used Geno since my party was usually Mario, Peach, and Bowser. I’m a big supporter of side characters but Geno is the only one that really got much attention. Where’s the love for Magus or Xemnas? I’m not saying there is really anything wrong with wanting Geno it’s just that I always found his huge support confusing.

Geno is the Boba Fett of Mario.

 

[Jondolio]

To be honest, there is some fun to be had in finding the minor appearances of characters in Nintendo games to hypothetically justify their inclusion in Smash. Raiden from Metal Gear is one of my favorites, as none of his mainline MGS games were ever on a Nintendo console... but he did pop up in Evolution Skateboarding for Gamecube, Super Bomberman R for Switch, and was sticker/spirit cameos in SSSB & Ultimate respectively.

The image of Sakurai seeing Raiden skateboarding in a near 20-year-old game and silently nodding that he may now be developed for Smash does make me laugh.

It's funny because of how absurd it is.
Which is why I think that "no Nintendo appearances" rule is complete and utter bull.

 

[blackghost]

"Moveset potential" is pretty much a buzzword that should have died when we got a Piranha Plant as DLC, if not before. A character doesn't always need crazy unseen mechanics.

But dlc character generally do bring new mechnics. sakurai is great at getting a moveset out of characters we wouldnt expect the man is incredibly creative. but plant isnt a character ive sen praised for the moveset mostly it has been a character ive seen praised for how sakurai pulled it off. i love the down b special personally.

Difficult
But not impossible

due to how tracer works, to be accurately portrayed in smash is a logistical and programming nightmare. she is a self-healing, time manipulator (of herself not her opponent), gun wielder with bombs in her kit as well. ive seen concepts for her, but mostly they get her in by removing some of her skills or abilities. Her time travel works so she goes to where she was located about 3 seconds previously and she goes back to whatever health she had at that time as well.

one of the reasons i think skaurai does these 3rd party fighters so often is he knows these characters and loves them is translating a moveset that already exists its logistically easier than trying to make something new every time ( i can only imagine how rough it would be if every character required the time and effort of Steve.

 

[WahHahaha]

I think Sakurai also said at one point that it's better if a game being represented in Smash has appeared on a Nintendo console, but never said it was required.

 

[ZelDan]

When it comes to Geno, IIRC he started being a requested character during the Melee days. I don't know if he was "big" then but I do believe he was a thing atleast, at at those times Super Mario RPG wasn't that old, or maybe not even that old at all. Moving on to brawl, there were some popular videos that revolved around Geno at those times, one being some remix of The forest Maze song, and another some Smash parody video about Geno demanding Sakurai to add him to Smash or something like that.

Sakurai himself talked about Geno at some point too, which only stoked the flames

This is the most sense I can make of Geno's Smash popularity.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

assist trophy promotion
I'll believe it when I see it

big 3rd party at the end
I-IT CAN TOTALLY HAPPEN! ANYTHING CAN! AND BY ANYTHING I MEAN ANYTHING THAT'S AN FP2 SPECULATION DARLING!

Since I'm the only one who has this stance on Assist Trophies at the moment, I feel I should address this:

If I say anything along the lines of "anything is possible", I don't mean literally anything. Nobody does. What I mean is that there are so many things that could happen that it's impossible to predict what will. There are still a ton of things that absolutely cannot/will not.

For an example that's as uncontroversial as possible, the next character could be something along the lines of Demifiend, but it absolutely cannot be anyone like Iron Man, as Sakurai has drawn a hard line on that and even explained why.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

In an odd way, I think the lack of overt references or inclusion of Mario RPG elements in any Nintendo games has also made Geno more appealing to some people, seeing him as a way of enshrining recognition and content of a beloved title that due to is unique development hasn't really been revisited by either company that made it.

 

[Theguy123]

It still makes no sense to me how Geno became so popular with the Smash community. I loved Super Mario RPG but I would have never even considered him for Smash. I barely even used Geno since my party was usually Mario, Peach, and Bowser. I’m a big supporter of side characters but Geno is the only one that really got much attention. Where’s the love for Magus or Xemnas? I’m not saying there is really anything wrong with wanting Geno it’s just that I always found his huge support confusing.

if there’s anything to take away from Geno it’s that every fanbase should be like the Geno fanbase. Not toxic obviously as things got heated but them and k rool fans are the definition of fighting for their characters.

they never gave up even when odds where against them, they shouted loud and clear and never backed down, any tad bits of into let out from someone like Nintendo or sakurai that had to do with their characters they used that to keep themselves motivated and vocal and they were soo vocal to the point where Geno is still talked about 2/3 decades later and has a mii costume and k rool got in.

the 2 fanbases should be a guide and message to future fanbase of franchises and characters that if you’re vocal enough and keep being vocal you can make a difference so don’t let anyone tell you opposite.

I appreciate what the 2 fanbase did. I learned a lesson from them and many others probably will. Most fan bases these days go quiet after a few moths or weeks and don’t really pop back up and if they do it’s only a few.

 

[Shroob]

When it comes to Geno, IIRC he started being a requested character during the Melee days. I don't know if he was "big" then but I do believe he was a thing atleast, at at those times Super Mario RPG wasn't that old, or maybe not even that old at all. Moving on to brawl, there were some popular videos that revolved around Geno at those times, one being some remix of The forest Maze song, and another some Smash parody video about Geno demanding Sakurai to add him to Smash or something like that.

Sakurai himself talked about Geno at some point too, which only stoked the flames

This is the most sense I can make of Geno's Smash popularity.

These 2 vids 100% escalated Geno's popularity.

Spoiler: Original Nico Nico Douga meme(Vid's creepy so spoilered)

Spoiler: Forest Rawest(Spoilered due to some gamer words)

 

[warubyun]

By now they're definitely separate franchises with completely unique and different characteristics, but we all know it originated as a spinoff.

Still is. Everyone knows SMT stands for Sersona Mersona Tersona.

 

[WahHahaha]

Since I'm the only one who has this stance on Assist Trophies at the moment, I feel I should address this:

If I say anything along the lines of "anything is possible", I don't mean literally anything. Nobody does. What I mean is that there are so many things that could happen that it's impossible to predict what will. There are still a ton of things that absolutely cannot/will not.

For an example that's as uncontroversial as possible, the next character could be something along the lines of Demifiend, but it absolutely cannot be anyone like Iron Man, as Sakurai has drawn a hard line on that and even explained why.

You are comparing 2 things that aren't comparable. Iron Man can't be in the game because Sakurai said he couldn't but you're somehow comparing that to an AT promotion which Sakurai never said couldn't happen. If you think that anything is possible, then that should also allow you to not let unproven rules get in your way.

Literally the only reason you believe this rule is because the rest of the fandom does, which means you are already going against your "anything is possible" statement. The fandom has only like 3 characters that they think can happen.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

if there’s anything to take away from Geno it’s that every fanbase should be like the Geno fanbase. Not toxic obviously as things got heated but them and k rool fans are the definition of fighting for their characters.

they never gave up even when odds where against them, they shouted loud and clear and never backed down, any tad bits of into let out from someone like Nintendo or sakurai that had to do with their characters they used that to keep themselves motivated and vocal and they were soo vocal to the point where Geno is still talked about 2/3 decades later and has a mii costume and k rool got in.

the 2 fanbases should be a guid and message to future fanbase of franchises and characters that if you’re vocal enough and keep being vocal you can make a difference so don’t let anyone tell you opposite.

I appreciate what the 2 fanbase did. I learned a lesson from them and many others probably will. Most fan bases these days go quiet after a few moths or weeks and don’t really pop back up and if they do it’s only a few.

Geno fanbase without the toxic elements is like Chernobyl without….the toxic elements.

 

[subterrestrial]

every fanbase should be like geno's

 

[Will]

every fanbase should be like geno's

oh hell no

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I mean as someone who spent a decent amount of time in the Geno thread and saw certain patterns of behavior I didn't care for... I still say that most of them are pleasant, yet dedicated people who enjoy the character and like to talk about him and Mario RPG. A tendency to latch on to theories sure, and guilty of letting their passions override their skepticism most certainly, but still nice to talk with most of the time.








(Plus as a long time Sonic fan, I've experienced toxic communities and Geno's is amateur hour by comparison.)

 

[WeirdChillFever]

every fanbase should be like geno's

Yes that would be fun

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Persona getting in really doesn’t matter for SMT. They aren’t the same series. They were at one point, but they aren’t anymore.

Its not like Nintendo is going to be looking at SMTIV or SMTV and be like “Sorry, already put its sister series in like 2 years ago, we can’t possibly promote our new big game with an inclusion because of a deal with a related series. Goodbye money! *sobs”

 

[Jondolio]

if there’s anything to take away from Geno it’s that every fanbase should be like the Geno fanbase. Not toxic obviously as things got heated but them and k rool fans are the definition of fighting for their characters.

they never gave up even when odds where against them, they shouted loud and clear and never backed down, any tad bits of into let out from someone like Nintendo or sakurai that had to do with their characters they used that to keep themselves motivated and vocal and they were soo vocal to the point where Geno is still talked about 2/3 decades later and has a mii costume and k rool got in.

the 2 fanbases should be a guide and message to future fanbase of franchises and characters that if you’re vocal enough and keep being vocal you can make a difference so don’t let anyone tell you opposite.

I appreciate what the 2 fanbase did. I learned a lesson from them and many others probably will. Most fan bases these days go quiet after a few moths or weeks and don’t really pop back up and if they do it’s only a few.

You know that's a nice sentiment and all
But I don't think campaigning for Decidueye for a decade would have a positive affect on my mental health and my life in general

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You are comparing 2 things that aren't comparable. Iron Man can't be in the game because Sakurai said he couldn't but you're somehow comparing that to an AT promotion which Sakurai never said couldn't happen. If you think that anything is possible, then that should also allow you to not let unproven rules get in your way.

I'm not comparing them, I'm disputing the idea that I'm a hypocrite for saying that something can't happen, yet in response to a completely different argument, might say something like "anything can happen". The argument here is that that's not even what I'm trying to say and has nothing to do with the Assist Trophy thing.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

one of the reasons i think skaurai does these 3rd party fighters so often is he knows these characters and loves them is translating a moveset that already exists its logistically easier than trying to make something new every time ( i can only imagine how rough it would be if every character required the time and effort of Steve.

That makes a lot of sense.
Tracer would probably present quite a few challenges for Sakurai-san and the Ultimate dev team, but who knows.
Let's assume she's Cp11 for a second.
It's possible Sakurai would need "a while" for her because he probably knows how he'd want her to work but wants to animate and code her the right way.

Maybe initialize a placeholder double for the initial damage she took prior to self-healing, and then call that double in a void method or something to set her new health.
Maybe set a loop for her movement through each stock and within the loop, initialize an array of doubles containing her coordinates so that she could use recall and spawn in the exact same spot she was 3 seconds ago

^ This is all coding stuff, so I apologize if it appears that I'm speaking gibberish.

Wouldn't be easy, but imagine how fun she'd be if it was pulled off correctly.

 

[N3ON]

In an odd way, I think the lack of overt references or inclusion of Mario RPG elements in any Nintendo games has also made Geno more appealing to some people, seeing him as a way of enshrining recognition and content of a beloved title that due to is unique development hasn't really been revisited by either company that made it.

Perhaps. But take it from an Isaac fan. Any recognition whatsoever will be wrung out for all its worth when building a case for Smash inclusion, haha.

if there’s anything to take away from Geno it’s that every fanbase should be like the Geno fanbase.

I'll give you Geno fanbase 2016-2018. After that, not so much.

Or better yet, just be like K. Rool fanbase.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

every fanbase should be like geno's

uh

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I mean as someone who spent a decent amount of time in the Geno thread and saw certain patterns of behavior I didn't care for... I still say that most of them are pleasant, yet passionate people who enjoy the character and like to talk about him and Mario RPG.

I’m sure Chernobyl had some nice people walking around but they didn’t talk about the famous pastries from the baker in the documentary.

 

[Will]

I'm not comparing them, I'm disputing the idea that I'm a hypocrite for saying that something can't happen, yet in response to a completely different argument, might say something like "anything can happen". The argument here is that that's not even what I'm trying to say and has nothing to do with the Assist Trophy thing.

There was that one time with Rex. Since he technically wasn't a DLC costume because Pass bonuses don't count or whatever, he could get in. I mean, you were half-right, just not the way you wanted it.

 

[3BitSaurus]

But dlc character generally do bring new mechnics. sakurai is great at getting a moveset out of characters we wouldnt expect the man is incredibly creative. but plant isnt a character ive sen praised for the moveset mostly it has been a character ive seen praised for how sakurai pulled it off. i love the down b special personally.

Thing is, most of these mechanics are there not just for the sake of shoehorning them in, but because they make sense with the character or their home series. In fact, in the eyes of a lot of people, different isn't always better.

I like how Min Min plays, personally, because of how it essentially changes the usual Smash inputs, but I don't think a lot o people like her too much, especially online.

Like I said: different strokes for different folks.

 

[Theguy123]

Perhaps. But take it from an Isaac fan. Any recognition whatsoever will be wrung out for all its worth when building a case for Smash inclusion, haha.

I'll give you Geno fanbase 2016-2018. After that, not so much.

Or better yet, just be like K. Rool fanbase.

I mean, even though the later fanbase of Geno got a bit heated and toxic, it always stayed passionate towards its character. 2/3 decades later only appeared in 1 game and was fighting for its life and got a majority of smash fans talking about it whether it was in a bad way or good way and got sakurai acknowledging it to an extent. That’s as passionate you can get and it should be used as a stepping stone for future characters or franchises.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I’m sure Chernobyl had some nice people walking around but they didn’t talk about the famous pastries from the baker in the documentary.

Getting beyond how appropriate this comparison even is, a mixed reputation largely coming from some unfortunate appearances in the main speculation thread doesn't really change that I had a lot of enjoyable discussions with them and think they still have merit now.

 

[Will]

I mean, even though the later fanbase of Geno got a bit heated and toxic, it always stayed passionate towards its character. 2/3 decades later only appeared in 1 game and was fighting for its life and got a majority of smash fans talking about it whether it was in a bad way or good way and got sakurai acknowledging it to an extent. That’s as passionate you can get and it should be used as a stepping stone for future characters or franchises.

In an alternate universe, all that dedication went towards Plusle & Minun. We still don't have a Gen 3 rep btw. Hint hint, Sakurai.

 

[Jondolio]

I just think Geno would be neat in Smash
That's the last thing I'll be saying before I go to bed, which is something I should've done two hours ago

 

[ZelDan]

These 2 vids 100% escalated Geno's popularity.

Spoiler: Original Nico Nico Douga meme(Vid's creepy so spoilered)

Spoiler: Forest Rawest(Spoilered due to some gamer words)

Huh...

I'm familiar with the second video (its the one I was referencing in my last post), but the first one is one I'm only finding out about now.

 

[Shroob]

Huh...

I'm familiar with the second video (its the one I was referencing in my last post), but the first one is one I'm only finding out about now.

It's what spawned Forest Rawest in the first place.


It came from NicoNicoDouga, so it's really not surprising if you never knew, it was mostly a Japanese meme.


The mid 2000's is when a lot of "Japanese memes" started becoming more well known in the west.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

There was that one time with Rex. Since he technically wasn't a DLC costume because Pass bonuses don't count or whatever, he could get in. I mean, you were half-right, just not the way you wanted it.

?

I don't remember this being my stance on the argument, but then again I did kind of flip flop on it a bit. I think my final verdict was that Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was in a really good spot, but whether or not Rex's Mii Costume was a death sentence was a huge unknown. I'm not sure weather I leaned toward it being a disconfirmation or not.

Either way I'm not sure how relevant it was to my previous statement.

 

[N3ON]

I mean, even though the later fanbase of Geno got a bit heated and toxic, it always stayed passionate towards its character. 2/3 decades later only appeared in 1 game and was fighting for its life and got a majority of smash fans talking about it whether it was in a bad way or good way and got sakurai acknowledging it to an extent. That’s as passionate you can get and it should be used as a stepping stone for future characters or franchises.

Yes, when the fanbase gets heated and toxic, that is a good time to not be like the fanbase.

Again, be like the K. Rool fanbase. They weathered the storm for a good decade, and the worse they got was when K. Rool was costume'd in 4. But even then, they weren't that bad. Between the Ridley, Isaac, Banjo, and, frankly, especially Geno fanbases, they kept the coolest heads, and had no absence of drive and dedication.

Perseverance and passion can be found in places where toxicity, demagoguery, and tribalism exist to a much lesser extent, and those are the places that should be emulated above ones that are... to put it kindly, a much more mixed bag.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Thing is, most of these mechanics are there not just for the sake of shoehorning them in, but because they make sense with the character or their home series. In fact, in the eyes of a lot of people, different isn't always better.

I like how Min Min plays, personally, because of how it essentially changes the usual Smash inputs, but I don't think a lot o people like her too much, especially online.

Like I said: different strokes for different folks.

I think in Min Min's case people are fine with how she feels to play, but just hate fighting her because she's fairly polarizing in terms of matchups.