Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Deleted member]

The fact that we're potentially approaching the "End times" for Smash speculation is definitely sobering, but at the same time, I welcome it.


While these months leading up to it haven't been as bad as I feared they'd be, no thanks helped by the massive de-confirmation wave of Miis last Direct, I'd be lying if I said that the landscape post-Kazuya hasn't been, well, dry.


I may be speaking for myself, but to me, it feels like people are just burnt out, and seeing September soo close, and a Direct almost assuredly happening there, just want to get this over with.



We've been at this for 3 years now, much longer than any prior Smash game, and while I haven't regretted it one bit, I'd be lying if I said that speculation in regards to FP2 was any sorts of "fun". Without things like actual, credible leaks, it just became a revolving door of fan rules getting shot down every presentation and circular logic that goes nowhere, not even to begin talking about, frankly, the sheer exhaustion of it all.


I think it goes without saying that 2018-2019 was really the golden era of Smash speculation in regards to Ultimate, just due to how much there was. Starting with 2020, things just kinda, came to a crawl, not helped by Nintendo cracking down hard on leaks, but also just.... not much to talk about, really.

I do see a lot of people talk about how they can't wait for Ultimate to finally end because of how tiresome speculation is nowadays, and while both the lack of leads and dry waiting periods between Challenger Packs did have an affect on that, I sure do think a good portion of it also involves how people within speculation only view a certain set of characters being likely which has lead to discussions only being revolved around those characters while others are either not brought up as a possibility or are mentioned but either gets ignored or downplayed for specific reasons against them. Every time I go on twitter and see someone make a tweet saying 1 of them can be in Smash and lists only Crash, Sora, Master Chief, and Waluigi it makes my veins pop out because I see it way too much.

When CP11 does indeed get revealed, my hopes are only for it to be a character I want and 1 that rarely gets brought up within the scene altogether, which defaults to either Zagreus or a Dynasty Warriors character. I don't really have anything else to add because it feels kinda redundant when the convo will get lost in the shuffle by the current topic at hand. What's the point in saying something like ending Ultimate with Hades being the last title would be perfect as it's both an Indie Game and the most recent game to come out when people are either not going to engage with it or downplay the thought because it's too new? I'd rather bet against the odds than play it safe cause the outcome is far more exciting and satisfying for the former than the latter.

 

[Theguy123]

I mean if it's either a complicated character or big name 3rd party (or both) we could be in for a December reveal. : /

what characters would genuinely cause a delay though. I feel like once sakurai has come up with the move set for a character it’s probably straight forward for them to design without many problems. No character specifically needs a rework like Steve did with the stages.

I could probably think off one that would maybe need a stage rework of some sort but I’d be being biased and that’s about it.

I don’t think there’s many that need a rework

 

[Shroob]

I do see a lot of people talk about how they can't wait for Ultimate to finally end because of how tiresome speculation is nowadays, and while both the lack of leads and dry waiting periods between Challenger Packs did have an affect on that, I sure do think a good portion of it also involves how people within speculation only view a certain set of characters being likely which has lead to discussions only being revolved around those characters while others are either not brought up as a possibility or are mentioned but either gets ignored or downplayed for specific reasons against them. Every time I go on twitter and see someone make a tweet saying 1 of them can be in Smash and lists only Crash, Sora, Master Chief, and Waluigi it makes my veins pop out because I see it way too much.

When CP11 does indeed get revealed, my hopes are only for it to be a character I want and 1 that rarely gets brought up within the scene altogether, which defaults to either Zagreus or a Dynasty Warriors character. I don't really have anything else to add because it feels kinda redundant when the convo will get lost in the shuffle by the current topic at hand. What's the point in saying something like ending Ultimate with Hades being the last title would be perfect as it's both an Indie Game and the most recent game to come out when people are either not going to engage with it or downplay the thought because it's too new? I'd rather bet against the odds than play it safe cause the outcome is far more exciting and satisfying for the former than the latter.

It's less to do about who it is and just that, if you talk about the same thing for long enough, even the most die-hard fan's going to need to catch their breath eventually.

2018-2019 was extremely fun due to a metric ton of just, everything. You had pre-release hype, official reveals, leaks, etc, and my god, the leaks were amazing on both ends of the spectrum.


On one hand, you had stuff like, Vergeben and the Ken Picture leak


On the other hand, you had: "I STOLE A DEMO KIOSK SWITCH AND DATAMINED THE DEMO BUT THEN THE DEMO SELF-TERMINATED SOMEHOW BUT TRUST ME GARDEVOIR AND GOTHITELLE ARE IN!"


2020-2021 has really had none of that. At best we've had leaks like, 5 minutes before the character comes out, but like, what do we have right now? ****ing Rapper Mario, which is about as believable as me winning the lottery?

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Where do we stand with CP11 being either right around the corner or December?

I feel pretty alright with a September reveal. Though I’ve also got a gut feeling we’ll get it in October.

I feel like we'll either see the last character in the general Direct in September, or we'll get an announcement of an announcement that basically says "tune in on this day for the Sakurai Presents where he'll reveal the last fighter" or something like that. I feel like taking 6 months for the last one is too much when there's nowhere else to split the work other than that fighter's update, and even Steve came out about 3 and a half/4 months after Min Min, and that was with a fundamental rework for EVERY STAGE.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

what characters would genuinely cause a delay though. I feel like once sakurai has come up with the move set for a character it’s probably straight forward for them to design without many problems. No character specifically needs a rework like Steve did with the stages.

I could probably think off one that would maybe need a stage rework of some sort but I’d be being biased and that’s about it.

I don’t think there’s many that need a rework

I can't think of any crazy examples either
But I did also mention that they could simply be holding it cuz it could be a big name character and promote something simultaneously


But allow me to digress to a different point
I'll use Ryu Hayabusa to make this point
I saw someone just now say that they could tease the character and say it needs a bit more time. I agree with this idea for sure
They could do a very short tease; let's say it's Hayabusa. Something like this could happen:

"We'e hard at work on our final fighter: I'm sure you're all wondering who it could be, right? Well, we did plan a little teas-

NINJA SWORD SLASH

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

*September 23, 2021 ... *(random date)

 

[SNEKeater]

The trademarks are for marketing reasons only. You play a Persona game and expect the Atlus logo to appear the same way you watch a Star Wars movie and expect the Lucas Film logo to appear. Otherwise its all SEGA Sammy's entertainment division now at this point.

Pointed out a while before that Kaneko Artbooks no longer has his copyright anymore meaning he sold the complete rights to his designs to SEGA/ATLUS now. Dante's devil trigger form also had his copyright as well so im not sure how Sega/Atlus owning it affects them but Dante didnt have the same trigger design in DMCV.

View attachment 326570

I mean, Dante's Devil Trigger design has always changed each game. In DMC4 he had a different one.

Kaneko designed his DT form (and Vergil's, btw) for DMC3 as a special collaboration because of Dante appearing in SMT: Nocturne.

SMT would be more of a ''why not?'' situation. And while I do think SMT has a decent chance this time, I feel like most of it boils down to ''new game = smash'' talk that has been going on for ages. Characters like Sol Badguy get thrown around for this very same reason. Let's not forget that while Persona is a spin-off, it's still more popular than the main series and the IP is regularly listed as one and the same:

Megami Tensei - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Which would essentially mean Nintendo double dipped on the same IP (and a niche one at that) before Sonic. But please do not misunderstand and say ''just because it's Sonic doesn't mean it gets priority'', and yes it could happen but it's unlikely. Think of it like Zelda or Kirby getting more characters than Mario.

No, they're not the same IP?
There's nothing in the wiki article that suggests that.

Megami Tensei is one thing. Is the larger series or the whole universe, if you wanna see it that way. Shin Megami Tensei (don't forget the "Shin" part) is what people usually calls "mainline SMT" around the internet, and when they do they're typically talking about SMT I, II, Nocturne, IV, IV: Apocalypse, V and also other games such as SMT: NINE, SMT: Strange Journey and of course SMT: if...

Technically SMT is under the Megami Tensei umbrella. Just like Persona or other subseries. And I don't think it's necessary to point out that both SMT and Persona are different, but... they're different. Even if they were the same IP at some point (which isn't the case), Persona has been it's own series for a long time already. Sega/Atlus also treat both series as different ones.

So no, adding a SMT character, be it Nahobino, Demi-fiend, Flynn or just a random Jack Frost wouldn't be double dipping by any means. That's just as wrong as saying we don't need Donkey Kong characters because we already have Mario.

 

[subterrestrial]

hot take: next char gonna drop same day or right after the reveal no extended wait

 

[Shroob]

hot take: next char gonna drop same day or right after the reveal no extended wait

I'd love it, but I severely doubt it.


They only did that with "Sakurai Presents", and even then, you'd have to wait like, a week.


With Direct reveals, it's usually a 2-3 week wait in between.

 

[subterrestrial]

I'd love it, but I severely doubt it.


They only did that with "Sakurai Presents", and even then, you'd have to wait like, a week.


With Direct reveals, it's usually a 2-3 week wait in between.

doubt they'd make us arbitrarily wait after the final char is revealed, what would even be the point? suspense ?

 

[Shroob]

doubt they'd make us arbitrarily wait after the final char is revealed, what would even be the point? suspense ?

I mean, why make us wait for Pythra or Kazuya for two weeks despite both being done?


They just spread it out as such, gets people talking, publicity.

 

[Theguy123]

Been Thinking more about the last character and how it’s gonna drop in the September direct.

It’s gonna be quite anticlimactic when it happens. It’ll be like they show us the first trailer and it’s like “here’s your character” and then boom that’s it. Rest of the direct carries on of other announcements.

It’s gonna feel anticlimactic In a way no matter who the character is in this direct unless it comes last.

 

[Inferno7]

I mean, Dante's Devil Trigger design has always changed each game. In DMC4 que had a different one.

Kaneko designed his DT form (and Vergil's, btw) for DMC3 as a special collaboration because of Dante appearing in SMT: Nocturne.



No, they're not the same IP?
There's nothing in the wiki article that suggests that.

Megami Tensei is one thing. Is the larger series or the whole universe, if you wanna see it that way. Shin Megami Tensei (don't forget the "Shin" part) is what people usually calls "mainline SMT" around the internet, and when they do they're typically talking about SMT I, II, Nocturne, IV, IV: Apocalypse, V and also other games such as SMT: NINE, SMT: Strange Journey and of course SMT: if...

Technically SMT is under the Megami Tensei umbrella. Just like Persona or other subseries. And I don't think it's necessary to point out that both SMT and Persona are different, but... they're different. Even if they were the same IP at some point (which isn't the case), Persona has been it's own series for a long time already. Sega/Atlus also treat both series as different ones.

So no, adding a SMT character, be it Nahobino, Demi-fiend, Flynn or just a random Jack Frost wouldn't be double dipping by any means. That's just as wrong as saying we don't need Donkey Kong characters because we already have Mario.

Yes but I think it's unfair to compare the two
DK comes from a way more popular franchise and ofc gets priority due to being first party.
Read again, I never said it couldn't happen, but that it'd be unlikely due to many reasons. Especially Nahobino, since it would fall under many baseless assumptions (including the fact Sakurai got to play an early build of a 3rd party game). I think if we're gonna get a SMT rep it's 90% gonna be Demi-Fiend.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

CP11 reveal -> september 8/9th (direct)
CP11 Sakurai presentation->september 20-23th
CP11 releases -> 1/2 days after Sakurai’s presentation.

If my prediction gets correct, I will make my own fake-insider twitter account.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I expect the final reveal to be in a September Direct.

Remind me again but when it comes to Pokemon Directs don't General or Smash Directs come the week after?

 

[Deleted member]

It's less to do about who it is and just that, if you talk about the same thing for long enough, even the most die-hard fan's going to need to catch their breath eventually.

2018-2019 was extremely fun due to a metric ton of just, everything. You had pre-release hype, official reveals, leaks, etc, and my god, the leaks were amazing on both ends of the spectrum.


On one hand, you had stuff like, Vergeben and the Ken Picture leak


On the other hand, you had: "I STOLE A DEMO KIOSK SWITCH AND DATAMINED THE DEMO BUT THEN THE DEMO SELF-TERMINATED SOMEHOW BUT TRUST ME GARDEVOIR AND GOTHITELLE ARE IN!"


2020-2021 has really had none of that. At best we've had leaks like, 5 minutes before the character comes out, but like, what do we have right now? ****ing Rapper Mario, which is about as believable as me winning the lottery?

2020-2021 has really had none of that. At best we've had leaks like, 5 minutes before the character comes out, but like, what do we have right now? ****ing Rapper Mario, which is about as believable as me winning the lottery?

Which, in turn, lead to many people speculating the same **** over and over again recycling topic after topic. If there's no interesting news to talk about, we're gonna talk about Crash; if we aren't gonna talk about Crash, we're gonna talk about Master Chief; if we aren't gonna talk about Master Chief, we're gonna talk about Capcom Character #29; if we aren't gonna talk about Capcom Character #29, we're gonna talk about the character from the next Nintendo game coming out...

Without any interesting stuff like real and fake leaks to look into, we're just left to recycle the same characters, franchises, and companies to talk about over and over again. It's just nowhere near as exciting as something like Vergeben's list of characters who aren't FP5. At least when that was going around, it gave us the opportunity to think of different characters that weren't on that specific list even when he made a big fumble with it.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

doubt they'd make us arbitrarily wait after the final char is revealed, what would even be the point? suspense ?

If I were to guess, I'd assume it's due to them trying to keep things under wraps as possible.

If we're to take Sakurai's words in the Byleth presentation as the norm, only a handful of people know about the characters prior to their announcements, not even many people at Nintendo.

The 2-3 week wait probably gives em time to officially reveal the characters, then give the rest of Nintendo and stuff time to market em, all while keeping things pretty unspoiled

 

[subterrestrial]

If I were to guess, I'd assume it's due to them trying to keep things under wraps as possible.

If we're to take Sakurai's words in the Byleth presentation as the norm, only a handful of people know about the characters prior to their announcements, not even many people at Nintendo.

The 2-3 week wait probably gives em time to officially reveal the characters, then give the rest of Nintendo and stuff time to market em, all while keeping things pretty unspoiled

Lmao bro do u genuinely think they don't start working on marketing until they reveal the character to the public ? its all planned in advance.

yea they made us arbitrarily wait with previous chars but this is the last one...there's literally nothing left to speculate or talk abt after theyre revealed

 

[Shroob]

Lmao bro do u genuinely think they don't start working on marketing until they reveal the character to the public ?

People getting Direct Press Kits don't even get the Smash news anymore.


After Min Min, they stopped sending Smash news alongside them.



The press is just as in the dark as we are.

 

[Inferno7]

Been Thinking more about the last character and how it’s gonna drop in the September direct.

It’s gonna be quite anticlimactic when it happens. It’ll be like they show us the first trailer and it’s like “here’s your character” and then boom that’s it. Rest of the direct carries on of other announcements.

It’s gonna feel anticlimactic In a way no matter who the character is in this direct unless it comes last.

Yes, it's gonna be anticlimatic no matter what since the bar is so high

But personally speaking, I can't really imagine the fatigue from a potential FP3. If they make us wait so long after each character release, I'm fine with the game's support ending rn. It just seems pointless and drags out speculation to a point it gets very tiring and repetitive, as some users have commented already.

 

[subterrestrial]

Yes, it's gonna be anticlimatic no matter what since the bar is so high

But personally speaking, I can't really imagine the fatigue from a potential FP3. If they make us wait so long after each character release, I'm fine with the game's support ending rn. It just seems pointless and drags out speculation to a point it gets very tiring and repetitive, as some users have commented already.

despite how often I hear it, I never understood this perspective tbh

you don't want anymore content in the game because of the fanbase speculating...?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

On the other hand, you had: "I STOLE A DEMO KIOSK SWITCH AND DATAMINED THE DEMO BUT THEN THE DEMO SELF-TERMINATED SOMEHOW BUT TRUST ME GARDEVOIR AND GOTHITELLE ARE IN!"

what's funnier is that people unironically believed that lmao

 

[Shroob]

what's funnier is that people unironically believed that lmao

Stealing a Switch Kiosk? Ya know, it's ****ing bull**** but people have done weirder so okay.


The game literally knew to self terminate? Okay we Skynet now? Nintendo secretly gonna start Terminator?

 

[Inferno7]

despite how often I hear it, I never understood this perspective tbh

you don't want anymore content in the game because of the fanbase speculating...?

Not really, I don't tend to care about what others think

But it's not like I can accurately predict characters either, so it ultimately ends up being:

-Me thinking about who would they realistically choose, then stick with that idea for a long time unless something comes up (for example: A random mii or spirit event). End up being wrong, then rinse and repeat.
-Me hoping it's one of my MW (imagine actually getting one kek)

So unless they somehow add one of my MWs, I mostly don't care about what they add next since I'm comfortable enough with the current roster (Cloud, Terry, Sephiroth, Pyra/Mythra [to name a few] are among my favorites).

 

[GilTheGreat19]

what's funnier is that people unironically believed that lmao

Wasn't that the leak that "guessed" Richter or something?

 

[Shroob]

despite how often I hear it, I never understood this perspective tbh

you don't want anymore content in the game because of the fanbase speculating...?

Smash is a 3 year old game by this point, I love it, but it's old.


Speculating about who gets in is honestly one of the biggest appeals of Smash, it's why we're all here, it's why there's soo many leak channels, it's why people like Vergeben get revered as leak gods, until their inevitable fall.


But eventually, people just get bored of the same thing. Even with taking breaks, which I had after Kazuya came out, the last year and a half have just been dry as **** in regards to speculation, and it's not hard to see how slow this thread has become.


I'd never turn my nose up to new content, but if Sakurai says "This is it"?, then thank you, Sakurai.


And the DLC costs as much as the base game, which is kinda nuts.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Smash is a 3 year old game by this point, I love it, but it's old.


Speculating about who gets in is honestly one of the biggest appeals of Smash, it's why we're all here, it's why there's soo many leak channels, it's why people like Vergeben get revered as leak gods, until their inevitable fall.


But eventually, people just get bored of the same thing. Even with taking breaks, which I had after Kazuya came out, the last year and a half have just been dry as **** in regards to speculation, and it's not hard to see how slow this thread has become.


I'd never turn my nose up to new content, but if Sakurai says "This is it"?, then thank you, Sakurai.


And the DLC costs as much as the base game, which is kinda nuts.

it could be worse... it could ALWAYS be worse.

looks at Dissidia NT and DOA6

 

[Shroob]

it could be worse... it could ALWAYS be worse.

looks at Dissidia NT and DOA6

The word you're looking for is F2P games where the characters cost money, and get released every 2 weeks.

 

[subterrestrial]

Smash is a 3 year old game by this point, I love it, but it's old.


Speculating about who gets in is honestly one of the biggest appeals of Smash, it's why we're all here, it's why there's soo many leak channels, it's why people like Vergeben get revered as leak gods, until their inevitable fall.


But eventually, people just get bored of the same thing. Even with taking breaks, which I had after Kazuya came out, the last year and a half have just been dry as **** in regards to speculation, and it's not hard to see how slow this thread has become.


I'd never turn my nose up to new content, but if Sakurai says "This is it"?, then thank you, Sakurai.


And the DLC costs as much as the base game, which is kinda nuts.

yea it makes sense to be satisfied by the roster, but sum ppl actively beg for the dlc to stop bc theyre tired of speculating lmaoo

 

[SNEKeater]

Yes but I think it's unfair to compare the two
DK comes from a way more popular franchise and ofc gets priority due to being first party.
Read again, I never said it couldn't happen, but that it'd be unlikely due to many reasons. Especially Nahobino, since it would fall under many baseless assumptions (including the fact Sakurai got to play an early build of a 3rd party game). I think if we're gonna get a SMT rep it's 90% gonna be Demi-Fiend.

My example with DK was because Donkey Kong existed before Mario. Just like SMT was a thing first before Persona.

It's not the first time I've read people saying a SMT character is a waste because Joker already reps SMT or whatever, when that just feels a way to gatekeep SMT from Smash, an excuse for people who doesn't care about SMT rep, basically. So my example was essentially: Mario is younger than DK but more popular, like Persona and SMT, so we could use the same excuse to justify we don't need Dixie Kong or a returning K. Rool in the next Smash game because Mario already kinda covers DK in a way.

I know you didn't say it wasn't possible. Sorry if it felt like I was saying that.

About the other part, SMT in Smash might be unlikely, yeah, I can agree with that. I do think Demi-fiend is the most likely candidate as well. But if SMT it's unlikely, it wouldn't be because "SMT and Persona" are the same IPs. Just wanted to say that.

If Atlus considered SMT was the same as Persona then Joker would have brought at least a Jack Frost costume or something like that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

it could be worse... it could ALWAYS be worse.

looks at Dissidia NT and DOA6

More like...pretty much any fighting game nowadays. What 2-to-5-year-old fighter doesn't require people who bought it day 1 to pay $120 or more for the full roster?

 

[Inferno7]

My example with DK was because Donkey Kong existed before Mario. Just like SMT was a thing first before Persona.

It's not the first time I've read people saying a SMT character is a waste because Joker already reps SMT or whatever, when that just feels a way to gatekeep SMT from Smash, an excuse for people who doesn't care about SMT rep, basically. So my example was essentially: Mario is younger than DK but more popular, like Persona and SMT, so we could use the same excuse to justify we don't need Dixie Kong or a returning K. Rool in the next Smash game because Mario already kinda covers DK in a way.

I know you didn't say it wasn't possible. Sorry if it felt like I was saying that.

About the other part, SMT in Smash might be unlikely, yeah, I can agree with that. I do think Demi-fiend is the most likely candidate as well. But if SMT it's unlikely, it wouldn't be because "SMT and Persona" are the same IPs. Just wanted to say that.

If Atlus considered SMT was the same as Persona then Joker would have brought at least a Jack Frost costume or something like that.

Well I don't think it would be a waste, my point was that there's a chance that Sakurai envisions Persona/SMT to be under the same umbrella, therefore he's not interested in adding more and would think Joker is enough (which could or could not be the case). Giving the Jack Frost example is good tho.

Personally speaking (whether I want a SMT rep or not)? Yeah Demi-Fiend is kinda cool and I prefer him over Arle. But in the end I'm just giving my two cents on who's likelier than the other.

 

[Shroob]

More like...pretty much any fighting game nowadays. What 2-to-5-year-old fighter doesn't require people who bought it day 1 to pay $120 or more for the full roster?

I mean, I think Nintendo, for all their faults, don't really 'want' that.


Like, the Smash 4 DLC, which only had 7 characters mind you, cost as much as both Fighter Passes combined iirc.

 

[SKX31]

what characters would genuinely cause a delay though. I feel like once sakurai has come up with the move set for a character it’s probably straight forward for them to design without many problems. No character specifically needs a rework like Steve did with the stages.

I could probably think off one that would maybe need a stage rework of some sort but I’d be being biased and that’s about it.

I don’t think there’s many that need a rework

I mean, why make us wait for Pythra or Kazuya for two weeks despite both being done?


They just spread it out as such, gets people talking, publicity.

TBF, those delays also allow for finetuning the characters and assessing whether there's jank that could be fixed. was finetuned a lot for instance (and this would also apply to any ARMS character due to their reach being really unconventional by Smash standards). Sakurai eventually handed out a slap-on-the-wrist nerf when it turned out Min Min had a Scholar's Mate cheese Japanese Youtubers were using on unsuspecting people* and clickbaiting with. Likewise with / - it turned out that they leaned back really far during their F-Smash animations and thus caused attacks / grabs to whiff, so another slap-on-the-wrist nerf there to normalize those animations.

Now I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the FP2 characters are going to recieve further (probably minor, but still) nerfs, but that's another topic pretty much.

*(While Byleth also has a Scholar's Mate cheese, it only works on DK. I suspect that's why Min Min's was fixed and Byleth's wasn't... poor .)

The word you're looking for is F2P games where the characters cost money, and get released every 2 weeks.

But what if the F2P game where all the characters are free - and the microtransactions are hats? Subtle plug for Dota 2

Smash is a 3 year old game by this point, I love it, but it's old.


Speculating about who gets in is honestly one of the biggest appeals of Smash, it's why we're all here, it's why there's soo many leak channels, it's why people like Vergeben get revered as leak gods, until their inevitable fall.


But eventually, people just get bored of the same thing. Even with taking breaks, which I had after Kazuya came out, the last year and a half have just been dry as **** in regards to speculation, and it's not hard to see how slow this thread has become.


I'd never turn my nose up to new content, but if Sakurai says "This is it"?, then thank you, Sakurai.


And the DLC costs as much as the base game, which is kinda nuts.

Honestly, the fact that it is an old(er) game makes it more interesting in the context of what to expect with Smash 6. I'm not thinking cuts here, but Sakurai and co. have been known to introduce characters with mechanics ( / ) and give characters tools if he felt certain elements of the game were undertuned / overtuned - or not interesting enough (compare Counters introduced in Melee / Brawl and those introduced in 4 / Ultimate for instance). Hell, Gliding as a mechanic helped pave the way for , and (even if Gliding was removed in 4... only to mostly return with . Huh.).

There's an entire long post I wrote regarding new mechanics and what those could mean for newcomers, and it got so long I felt the need to put it in a spoiler:

Spoiler

In the past characters have been introduced partly to explore new mechanics: / was initially introduced with the intent of switching between the two. While the result was not what Sakurai wanted - 4 separated the two - the idea of a transformation nevertheless lived on in and / .

And yes, sometimes characters have been designed with previous experience as a stepping stone - the Counters started out rather vanilla in Melee and Brawl, but and have recieved some more interesting takes thanks to previous experience (as well as counters being undertuned in Melee and Brawl... but crazily overtuned with Smash 4's DLC).

Fast forward to FP2: several characters introduced have massive reach or other forms of zoning as a primary character trait. These characters not only prove that it's feasible to introduce such concepts in the game, but also that such advantages can feel potent if not outright overwhelming.

did cause quite a ruckus, and not just within the competitive scene: as Japanese Youtubers can attest to. Here I wanna point out that Smash has rather straightforward general defensive tools - shield, dodges and parries. Which makes defending against her, and other zoners rather linear overall. Yes there have been changes and additions to that - from the Reflector to Bayo's and Mythra's additional dodge mechanics that slow the opponent. But overall the same basic tools apply - and ones that are not that well-equipped with dealing with zoners because of their limitations. Yes, the online environment as it stands does exasperate the issue, but still - zoners take up a significant portion of the roster nowadays.

And yes, this talking point is heavily borrowed from MockRock's "The Problem with Zoners" video - and I wanna note in particular that mechanical changes can be meant for both competitive and casual players. While casual players oftentimes play with more than just one opponent (frequently ending up with 4+ players) - and this is a mitigating factor that he should've mentioned IMHO - a lot of casual players often have severe trouble dealing with projectiles and projectile spam.

In the video MockRock proposes that Smash look at other games and see what they do. One thing that Smash doesn't have are moves that have exclusively projectile invincibility. Some characters have moves that can (super) armor through projectiles, yes, but it's not a universal trait. In addition, MockRock does mention one character who could heavily benefit from that alone: and his Wizard Foot.

Now then there are quite a few potential newcomers who would benefit from projectile invincibility being introduced. And I'm not just talking newcomers from fighting games either. My MW has several characters that can dodge projectiles or otherwise protect themselves from them, whether it's turning into a living tidal wave or literally jumping into another dimension for a second (I'd like to imagine does this whenever it air / spotdodges).

Other mechanics I've seen tossed around in this very thread include the Air Dash. That would open the door a bit to a number of characters, such as Dante, X / Zero, Strider etc. And I only mentioned Capcom characters here to illustrate the point that there's a lot of characters that could benefit from this.

And characters that can move while shielding as the upcoming Rushdown Revolt has? Now there are quite a few potential newcomers who could appriciate that, like barrier users (Eggman does use a barrier in his Metropolis Zone boss fight, for example).

The reaction to new characters and mechanics introduced does help the stage for Smash 6 speculation to some degree at least.

 

[Ayumi Tachibana]

Do you think if Sakurai announces FP3 or a several additional DLCs like PP would boost up the speculation scene to at least the same level as the early time of FP2?

 

[CannonStreak]

Do you think if Sakurai announces FP3 or a several additional DLCs like PP would boost up the speculation scene to at least the same level as the early time of FP2?

I highly doubt that would happen. Would be nice, but I can't see it happening.

 

[Shroob]

Do you think if Sakurai announces FP3 or a several additional DLCs like PP would boost up the speculation scene to at least the same level as the early time of FP2?

Maybe?


With how much he's preached "This is the end", you'd probably get some folk back, but I mean, we're pretty likely getting a Direct soon, like, real soon, potentially 2-3 weeks from now, and this thread's kinda dead.


Compare that to earlier this year which was ZOOM.

 

[SNEKeater]

Well I don't think it would be a waste, my point was that there's a chance that Sakurai envisions Persona/SMT to be under the same umbrella, therefore he's not interested in adding more and would think Joker is enough (which could or could not be the case). Giving the Jack Frost example is good tho.

Personally speaking (whether I want a SMT rep or not)? Yeah Demi-Fiend is kinda cool and I prefer him over Arle. But in the end I'm just giving my two cents on who's likelier than the other.

That's fair, though I think it's fair to assume also Sakurai considers both series as different things, considering the brief interview they did when Sakurai visited Atlus after Joker got revealed for Smash:

Around 0:45 he says Persona 1 was his first Persona game, but that at that time the series was under the SMT brand. Which obviously implies it wasn't the case anymore later in the series. He doesn't directly say "SMT and Persona are completely different and each are their own thing" but I think these words kinda imply he doesn't view both series as the same thing.

Funny enough, I was watching the rest of the video because I didn't remember most of it, and later on the video he says "Joker stole an invitation to get into Smash". I remember there has been some discussion about that and if Joker actually stole an invitation or if that was just something people made up. I don't know if Sakurai is actually saying that in japanese, maybe the translator took some liberties there lol

The Jack Frost thing wouldn't be as surprising if it wasn't because he's the literal mascot of Atlus. Even if he didn't originated in Persona, I remember being 100% sure Jack Frost was going to appear in some way. I was remember assuming he would be part of Joker's moveset because I expected him to have a summoner playstyle lol. Oh and there was also that 4chan leak that gained some traction around internet where the guy was predicting Joker's moveset, which included Jack Frost.

 

[Idon]

That's fair, though I think it's fair to assume also Sakurai considers both series as different things, considering the brief interview they did when Sakurai visited Atlus after Joker got revealed for Smash:

Around 0:45 he says Persona 1 was his first Persona game, but that at that time the series was under the SMT brand. Which obviously implies it wasn't the case anymore later in the series. He doesn't directly say "SMT and Persona are completely different and each are their own thing" but I think these words kinda imply he doesn't view both series as the same thing.

Funny enough, I was watching the rest of the video because I didn't remember most of it, and later on the video he says "Joker stole an invitation to get into Smash". I remember there has been some discussion about that and if Joker actually stole an invitation or if that was just something people made up. I don't know if Sakurai is actually saying that in japanese, maybe the translator took some liberties there lol

The Jack Frost thing wouldn't be as surprising if it wasn't because he's the literal mascot of Atlus. Even if he didn't originated in Persona, I remember being 100% sure Jack Frost was going to appear in some way. I was remember assuming he would be part of Joker's moveset because I expected him to have a summoner playstyle lol. Oh and there was also that 4chan leak that gained some traction around internet where the guy was predicting Joker's moveset, which included Jack Frost.

On that note about the interview, it's not an official translation.
If you listen, he doesn't say "Shin Megami Tensei" he says "Megami Tensei"

with closed captioning turned on you can also see he says his first Persona was on the PS2 not the PS1

 

[SNEKeater]

On that note about the interview, it's not an official translation.
If you listen, he doesn't say "Shin Megami Tensei" he says "Megami Tensei"

with closed captioning turned on you can also see he says his first Persona was on the PS2 not the PS1

**** you're right. I guess I didn't pay that much attention. Thanks for the correction

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You know, one of the things that struck me as odd on the story of how Pyra/Mythra came to be is that vanilla Xenoblade Chronicles 2's mechanics seemed to be the second option considered. The general consensus on this fact seemed to be that they'd be like the Ice Climbers (EDIT: Even Sakurai compared the two) which never made sense to me (they could have done it that way if they gave Rex the Junk Sword but it would still be a rather strange way of going about it). What if instead Rex & Pyra were going to be a different take on the swap character that Zelda/Sheik and the Pokémon Trainer were before them, and Pyra/Mythra ended up being?

It would still have some relevance to the source material since Driver/Blade Swapping is a thing in Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Torna ~ The Golden Country, and would likely have also been inspired by the first fight with Malos where Rex and Pyra fought in tandem with each other (Malos and...Skarr? did so as well, and I think it's the only fight where Drivers and Blades truly fought together rather than having the Blades stand back until it was time to do their abilities were they not passive).

So how would that have worked? My guess is something like Afi & Galu from Icons: Combat Arena in the sense that both characters would be on screen at all times, but you could swap the one you controlled mid combat. In this case, they would pass the Aegis Sword back and forth in order to cover more options or press their advantage. They likely would have also had the mechanic that would have caused them to share the damage and knockback that they take (perhaps taking less damage than normal since they'd take double damage if they got hit at the same time), which would also make them more like a pseudo puppet fighter since you have more than one entity to protect at all times. They might could have also given the inactive character a way to directly aid the active one, but I dunno how that would fit onto the control scheme.

So how does Mythra fit into this mechanic? I kinda don't think she could without overcomplicating things, but a similarly playing Rex & Mythra would make for a neat clone character. If they were going to try and fit Mythra into this, they might've been able to have Pyra and Mythra swap via a Shield Special, and then the two would compliment Rex's moveset in different ways, likely in a similar fashion to how they compliment each other now.

Admittedly, the mechanic could still be compared to the Ice Climbers (sort of like Ice Climbers meets Pokémon Trainer meets Rosalina & Luma), but it does have enough nuances to be considered its own thing. What do you guys think about this idea?