Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Crackpot Smash Ideas: Alph is added as his own character. His only mechanical difference is that if you use Pikmin Pluck with three Pikmin in tow, one of them gets a Bomb Rock until all three of them have one. Throwing a Pikmin with a Bomb Rock removes their initial hitbox, but places the rock where they land, which explodes after a delay. The explosions are extremely powerful, and there are no changes to balance this out. Bow down to your new top tier.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

That doesn't mean it's a bad idea, but after that, Pikmin fell off the radar, so it's not even surprising he's still a costume in Ultimate. There was nothing big to promote anymore. Now, it does suck Rock Pikmin still aren't usable, but it's probably just a case of "...what makes them unique from Purple Pikmin?" Ironically Rock Pikmin did appear on the 3DS at some point... in 2017, well after the 3DS Smash version. Funny that. They aren't in the Japan-only Pikmin game either, which was after Pikmin 3. Maybe there was some oddity with the model that made it hard to use on the 3DS or something? I dunno. That could've played a role too.

Hey! Pikmin was released internationally.

Pikmin's now relevant again so it's possible that we get something from it late into the pass. But I can see why Rock Pikmin would be difficult. Three of the things that make Rock Pikmin stand out are nullified by Smash's mechanics. Rock Pikmin cannot latch onto enemies, simply dealing damage and bouncing off, and they're immune to being crushed, a hazard that instantly kills all other Pikmin types. Purple Pikmin ended up taking the role of the Pikmin that bounces off and does damage (while the DO do damage on impact in Pikmin 2, they latch on afterwards like normal Pikmin). Meanwhile, being crushed is extremely rare in Smash, and the Pikmin, when following Olimar or Alph, already have more invulnerability to hazards. One thing I will say is that there IS still a trait that can make Rock Pikmin distinct. They have the ability, when thrown at hard crystals, to break them open. Rock Pikmin could finction similarly to purples, have less power but the ability to heavily damage or instantly break shields.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Rock Pikmin could finction similarly to purples, have less power but the ability to heavily damage or instantly break shields.

...Alph being Olimar, but instead of Purple Pikmin, he gets what's effectively a Mr. Saturn that he can hold onto and attack with at the same time is a much better Crackpot Smash Idea then then the more legitimately decent idea that I went with. sigh

But yeah, Rock Pikmin being more of a threat on block than on hit would be a pretty interesting idea to give to Alph.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hey! Pikmin was released internationally.

Pikmin's now relevant again so it's possible that we get something from it late into the pass. But I can see why Rock Pikmin would be difficult. Three of the things that make Rock Pikmin stand out are nullified by Smash's mechanics. Rock Pikmin cannot latch onto enemies, simply dealing damage and bouncing off, and they're immune to being crushed, a hazard that instantly kills all other Pikmin types. Purple Pikmin ended up taking the role of the Pikmin that bounces off and does damage (while the DO do damage on impact in Pikmin 2, they latch on afterwards like normal Pikmin). Meanwhile, being crushed is extremely rare in Smash, and the Pikmin, when following Olimar or Alph, already have more invulnerability to hazards. One thing I will say is that there IS still a trait that can make Rock Pikmin distinct. They have the ability, when thrown at hard crystals, to break them open. Rock Pikmin could finction similarly to purples, have less power but the ability to heavily damage or instantly break shields.

That was in 2017, and the roster was determined in 2015, two years before that. Pikmin was still not doing that hot. I didn't say relevant, I said "big to promote". ...Hey! Pikmin isn't exactly a big game. It's a smaller spin-off game.

It's a bit late for that to work. Timing just simply didn't serve Pikmin very well, honestly.

Also, see what Smash Puppy said about Rock Pikmin not working that well with Olimar alone. I wasn't even aware of that, but that explains heavily why they weren't used. They simply weren't feasible options. That actually makes a lot more sense why the idea was scrapped. So more of a technical issue than anything else. This isn't even an Alph factor(who admittedly only really needs better taunts. They don't even need new hurtboxes. Just make his personality not crap. You don't need a new slot for that, even). It'd be cool if he was separated, but they should focus on making sure there's some cool Pikmin to add too. That way it feels like a far better split off than ones like Daisy had(who was a costume reference). There's also stuff like Bulbmin and Mushroom Pikmin now, so they got some great options. Next game might fare better, though. Assuming they don't find another Captain that they're more interested in using(though that said, if they aren't going to split them off, which is a bit understandable, the Captains should at least be more than 2 used as alts. As all the Captains play alike, they do make for a nice alt option. Just as long as they give them their proper personality... cause yeah, Alph's is just crap).

Rock Pikmin being made separate is not impossible or anything like that. But that doesn't mean the team had ideas for it. We having ideas doesn't mean it came to them. Who knows? Maybe they simply weren't big fans of Pikmin so it wasn't on their mind. Maybe they didn't think shield breaking was enough to really make them feel super unique. There's a lot we don't know. All they said was the idea for Rock Pikmin was scrapped, with no further details. It could be anything, really.

Also, to be fair, Alph isn't in Hey Pikmin either, so that really didn't help give a good reason to split him off in itself. Only Olimar is playable among the Captains. Oddly enough. Being it takes place after Pikmin 3 due to the Pikmin available. If anything, it's at least a good enough reason to add new Pikmin to the roster of options Olimar/Alph can pick.

 

[ARandomZoomer]

...Alph being Olimar, but instead of Purple Pikmin, he gets what's effectively a Mr. Saturn that he can hold onto and attack with at the same time is a much better Crackpot Smash Idea then then the more legitimately decent idea that I went with. sigh

But yeah, Rock Pikmin being more of a threat on block than on hit would be a pretty interesting idea to give to Alph.

Not to the extent of breaking shields instantly, but still doing more shield damage than the rest of the Pikmin does seem like a neat idea.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

(though that said, if they aren't going to split them off, which is a bit understandable, the Captains should at least be more than 2 used as alts. As all the Captains play alike, they do make for a nice alt option. Just as long as they give them their proper personality... cause yeah, Alph's is just crap).

I think they only did Alph because:

• Louie has different proportions, and would need to be reanimated.
• The President has different proportions, though he's probably the most workable. On the other hand, he also seems to be the least popular Captain.
• Charlie has different proportions, and would require a larger hitbox.
• Brittany would be pretty easy, but including both her and Alph would cause there to be an uneven number of alts, which would mean that someone would have to get short changed in terms of pallet swaps unless they wanted to make an exception in terms of how many they gave the character overall (like with Wario and Little Mac in previous titles).

Not to the extent of breaking shields instantly, but still doing more shield damage than the rest of the Pikmin does seem like a neat idea.

Ye. That was what I was alluding to with my final sentence.

 

[ARandomZoomer]

I think they only did Alph because:

• Louie has different proportions, and would need to be reanimated.
• The President has different proportions, though he's probably the most workable. On the other hand, he also seems to be the least popular Captain.
• Charlie has different proportions, and would require a larger hitbox.
• Brittany would be pretty easy, but including both her and Alph would cause there to be an uneven number of alts, which would mean that someone would have to get short changed in terms of pallet swaps unless they wanted to make an exception in terms of how many they gave the character overall (like with Wario and Little Mac in previous titles).

Ye. That was what I was alluding to with my final sentence.

Yes and I'm agreeing with you

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think they only did Alph because:

• Louie has different proportions, and would need to be reanimated.
• The President has different proportions, though he's probably the most workable. On the other hand, he also seems to be the least popular Captain.
• Charlie has different proportions, and would require a larger hitbox.
• Brittany would be pretty easy, but including both her and Alph would cause there to be an uneven number of alts, which would mean that someone would have to get short changed in terms of pallet swaps unless they wanted to make an exception in terms of how many they gave the character overall (like with Wario and Little Mac in previous titles).

Though to be fair, Lucina originally did too, but she was redone to be a costume first, hence being a clone/echo in a lucky format.

But it would be nice, yeah. You could probably still fit President and Brittanny in with what you said in mind. But for now, it still works. I do remember Captain Louie being a decently popular pick as a gameplay clone, though. Though it does make me wonder if an Echo would work with different Pikmin. Since they are part of the actual character development-wise, not simply a piece of the moveset, it does mean they couldn't deviate much from any Pikmin's design. Rock Pikmin clearly work for Purple Pikmin, but I dunno if the Mushroom Pikmin could replace another? It's a very awkward character in that regard.

It's like how Luma is part of the actual character. Not just, say, a quick summon in the way Bayonetta summons her demon. Or how Toad is, more or less. But that's why I state the Pikmin are so damn important. It's actually a lot more important than people realize due to an incorrect translation. The character should still say Pikmin & Olimar, which is way more accurate. That said, I don't think it'd affect the Echo factor anyway, but we have yet to see an Echo in a similar situation. So no one like Rosalina & Luma or Duck Hunt.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Yes and I'm agreeing with you

oh

Though to be fair, Lucina originally did too, but she was redone to be a costume first, hence being a clone/echo in a lucky format.

In Lucina's case, it was more of a use of the scale tool, so she didn't have to be rigged differently and reanimated. The change itself is kind of weird though. It was made for no reason, and then reverted for no reason.

But it would be nice, yeah. You could probably still fit President and Brittanny in with what you said in mind.

Yeah. It would be an...interesting combination, but it could probably work.

Rock Pikmin clearly work for Purple Pikmin, but I dunno if the Mushroom Pikmin could replace another?

Mushroom Pikmin wouldn't make sense for any of the captains to have since they are just normal Pikmin that have been infected by a Puff Stool; the only difference between a Pikmin and its mushroom counterpart is their design, the fact that they're hostile to the captains, and the fact that normal Pikmin will attack them.

Bulbmin would also be a little weird, but they can be friendly to the player, so it wouldn't be too bad to give this type to them. How exactly they'd act I dunno. They resist everything but being crushed so maybe they just ignore Fire, Water, and Electric attacks?

 

[PeridotGX]

So, I was binging some Alternate History Hub, and I figured I would propose to y'all a fun alternative gaming scenario.

What if Nintendo bought Sega?

For context, this scenario is not too much out of the question. In 2000, Sega was going through its huge identity crisis with their hardware under preforming, there were considerations to sell the company to Microsoft. If this were to happen, two things would need to occur. Nintendo would have to smell blood in the water and end up approaching Sega for the deal. If Nintendo did approach Sega in their darkest hour, some potential deal would have been at least on the table in some way, shape or form. There were also talks of a merger in 2003 with Sammy before Sammy decided to become the majority shareholder. Now obviously, this stuff may end up super messy. I also want to stress that Nintendo, at least at the time where this merger was viable, was not known for mergers or acquisitions. Even if they did see the opportunity, Nintendo could have easily just ignored the opportunity and just moved on. But that's no fun, so what if they did not?

A Dream Casted away

If this deal was to be made, one thing that Sega likely would have pursued is that there be some sort of life jacket to Dreamcast adopters. If Nintendo did decide to indulge Sega on this, this could have gone a few ways. First off, they could have pushed the idea off to their next console and included the Dreamcast programming and software in the Wii. They could have added an adapter to the Gamecube to let it play Dreamcast games. They could have made and alternative gamecube model that played both. Sega did wish for the Xbox at one point to be Dreamcast compatible, so the idea is not that far off.

A different Sonic

If Nintendo owned Sega, that means that as a result, the blue blur ends up being owned by Nintendo. I will discuss some other Sega franchises, but Sonic is interesting not only due to how big he is, but how his modern identity is defined by failure. The Adventure formula was formally retired after 06 bombed. Ever since then, the Sonic brand has always been shifting around, trying to find an identity that works for it.

In this timeline, Sonic is now under Nintendo's control. Does that mean that Sonic Team makes only amazing Sonic games? No. But it would likely mean there is a much stronger mandate on what they can do with Sonic. Nintendo has always leaned conservative on how they handle their core franchises. While there are exceptions like BotW, most of the time Nintendo is more comfortable sticking to a tried and true format. Even when they do deviate, such as with Skyward Sword or Mario Odyssey, there is still a lot of the old foundation that they drew upon originally. In this timeline, Sonic likely ends up sticking to what he was known for in 2001: The Adventure Formula and the Genesis Formula. As such, we end up with a more reigned in Sonic of sorts.

One thing that changes though is that Sonic is not as invested in its fan community. Things like Mania, the Sonic CD port, or the Sonic Mobile ports made by Christian Whitehead would not exist. Nintendo also would probably look at sonic modding with a lot more resistance than Sega does. Sega openly encourages their fans to mod sonic and express themselves. Nintendo...well, their history with mods is very tenuous to this day.

The other Sega franchises

Speculating on what franchises that Nintendo would push forward from Sega is a little hard, but there are a few camps they can go in. First, what is doing well at the time. In this camp, Phantasy Star and Crazy Taxi are solid picks. They both are popular series that had big releases on the Dreamcast. PSO being such a big title in its day would likely mean Nintendo adopts it in particular. The next category is where Nintendo plays favorites. Nights is one of Miyamoto's favorite games, so I could see us getting some more Nights love. Finally, you have the easiest department to look at: games that were coming to the Gamecube and did well. Monkey Ball and Puyo Puyo stick out. They both did well on the Gamecube, and likely would have done even better with Nintendo actively pushing them.

Also, as a minor addendum after discussing with @GoodGrief741 , but F Zero would now have a dedicated in house team after F Zero GX, so it might not die in this timeline.

Sega's Past Properties

So Sega has an extensive backlog that can be looked at for Nintendo to use. On the Virtual Console, the real question is Saturn stuff. Saturn Emulation is a bit finnicky to this day, but so is N64 emulation and Nintendo made that work on VC. Likely, most of the Saturn's big titles would be put on the VC, including some of the Japanese titles. This puts the Saturn in a bit of a fun spot, where it gets a bit more of a second glance from people. I could see people pushing Nintendo to remake or release Panzer Dragoon Saga in this timeline, so long as the source code is not lost in this timeline. Likely, much as we are clammoring for Nintendo do do things with Golden Sun, Donkey Kong, or F Zero in this timeline, perhaps there is more of a demand that Shining Force or Burning Rangers or even some of the Dreamcast's library gets some love. Heck, Nintendo might even see enough value and put the Sega CD on VC.

Pushing forwards from VC, likely Sega's properties end up lumped into the same sort of use by Nintendo that their old catalog does. They end up protective of roms and emulation, they trickle them out on Nintendo Online, with Sega Genesis Online being a big announcement they end up making for the Switch at some point.

Atlus at last?

Sega did end up purchasing Atlus in September of 2013. Now, we could say that Nintendo does not enter the bidding war for Atlus in 2013, but given that they made a far larger acquisition in this what if already and they were in an open collaboration with Altus at this point with SMT X FE, I am gonna say that we do get a Nintendo Atlus acquisition. What does this change? Not much to be honest.

The vast majority of Atlus' properties at the time were either in development or already coming to the 3DS. Likely what would happen is that Nintendo would either delay the Altus games that were in production to be shifted to Nintendo systems, or they would simply push that everything that was not already in development at that point would be a Switch exclusive from that point onward. Persona 5 imo is probably the cut off title of what we could consider in development prior to the buyout. Should Nintendo acquire them, Persona 5 might have been a day 1 switch port similar to Breath of the Wild.

Smash Bros

Now to tie it into this website, we got Smash. One thing that might be worth discussing is the impact of Sega being a first party. Does this mean that third parties are more scarce? Probably not. Mega Man was still one of the most requested characters of all time, if Namco developed the game they would probably end up getting Pac Man in anyway, and Snake already opened the floodgates for guest characters. I do not think that in this timeline, Sonic not being a guest character would stop third parties from being a thing.

One important thing that does change is that Sonic almost certainly is on the initial project proposal. Sonic was notably a last minute addition to Brawl do to negotiations being difficult, but with Nintendo owning him he would be one of the first characters in Brawl. I doubt that he would end up in Melee however. While the timeline might allow it to work, it would still be tight given that this deal would likely close out too late into Melee's development that Sonic would narrowly miss his chance. But for Brawl, he is a lock. Sonic's treatment likely would also be different in Smash. We likely would see far more Sonic content, given that Nintendo would own him. We would probably see mountains of support for Tails and Eggman for future Smash games, even more than in our own timeline. Shadow might be Sonic's echo fighter, who knows.

In terms of what other Sega franchises end up in Smash, that depends on what Nintendo and Sega are pushing forward at the time, or what Sakurai sees value in adding. The two I am the most confident in are Puyo Puyo and Phantasy Star. We likely would end up with Alis and Arle by Smash Ultimate in this timeline. With Persona now under Nintendo's umbrella and P5 being a switch launch title, we likely still get Joker. Outside of those three and the Sonic games, it gets harder to say who would be chosen. We are dealing with a what if that has a lot of asterisks and question marks already. Maybe in this alternative timeline, Nights is one of the never evers that people push for and he makes a comeback in Smash. Maybe some Genesis era characters or franchises like Comix Zone or Kid Chameleon end up becoming popular for Smash. It really is impossible to know.

But that's just my gut assumptions of what would happen, what do you all think?

I have a lot of thoughts about this alternate universe, but not the willpower to write them all. Good writeup though.

Here's one big question: What does the 7th Gen look like? Does Nintendo still go Blue Ocean, or do they give another shot at a "real" console? I can't see Sega being big fans of the Wii direction, and I would imagine they have some say. And, of course, that makes for an even bigger divergence later on.

 

[pupNapoleon]

He's nothing like an Ike Echo. That's not how it works. So... no, he's still a Roy Echo. Roy also separated himself massively from Marth. Chrom/Roy are not very similar to Lucina/Marth beyond the fact that Chrom and Lucina do not have some type of tipper-like mechanic. That's really it. They play very differently.

Chrom always had a move similar to Ike's Aether, and still uses it differently from Ike as well. Using Ike's Aether to create a new animation was just basic development practice. And yes, Chrom stands out more than ones like Daisy because he actually plays quite differently from Roy, and has an entirely different move.

Pikmin & Alph is not as simple as the others. First, we know Rock Pikmin were considered on Pikmin & Olimar. This would be the best way to make him an Echo, giving him a new Pikmin, which are an important part of the moveset. It's only a misconception in international versions by referring them solely as the Captain's Name that people think the Pikmin don't matter. But we know that's not the case through research. So first and foremost, the Pikmin are an important part to Alph being separated. This also means that they need an interesting way to make him stick out a little. Keep in mind Daisy is the first Echo to have almost zero gameplay differences in any meaningful way as is(her only thing is different hurtboxes. Richter has an element difference, as does Dark Samus). So it wasn't going to be a Daisy-level, as Lucina and Dark Pit weren't either. They had actual gameplay differences. That means that Alph, regardless, had to have something. Pikmin were also important, as I just said, so that means "what can they do with the Pikmin?". That means Rock Pikmin was the only feasible option at the time unless they wanted to also give him Wing Pikmin and keep Pikmin Chain. So 1 or 2 Pikmin. Either works. This also means, if they want to keep Rock Pikmin, they have to make a new model and make sure it has no bugs. This isn't a recolor situation either, or just taking an already available model(remember the Rock Pikmin were not on the 3DS either, so they need to take the model from the Wii U version and remake it in time to release Smash 3DS. It took a while for Smash Wii U to come out too, so they had to take any 3DS models(including ones for playable characters) and make sure they work on the Wii U respectively. Worth noting, in this case, that's why Smash Run also was unfeasible on the Wii U. Those were from 3DS games, so they'd have to constantly rework them for the Wii U version, and that's a lot of extra work. Now, to further note, yes, they were a Trophy in the 3DS version. But a trophy is not the same as a working model. That was only available via a Wii U game, so likely all they could easily do. This is probably why the concept was scrapped. Alph was even considered as a clone, yet scrapped. Why? The best we can figure is that gameplay issues arose. Could it be because of Rock Pikmin being unfeasible to get done fast? Lack of ideas? Maybe they couldn't figure out how to make it stand out from Purple Pikmin. Only thing it wouldn't really be is a technical issue, as that was already taken care of to make Pikmin & Olimar usable in the first place(5 to 3) Pikmin.

That doesn't mean it's a bad idea, but after that, Pikmin fell off the radar, so it's not even surprising he's still a costume in Ultimate. There was nothing big to promote anymore. Now, it does suck Rock Pikmin still aren't usable, but it's probably just a case of "...what makes them unique from Purple Pikmin?" Ironically Rock Pikmin did appear on the 3DS at some point... in 2017, well after the 3DS Smash version. Funny that. They aren't in the Japan-only Pikmin game either, which was after Pikmin 3. Maybe there was some oddity with the model that made it hard to use on the 3DS or something? I dunno. That could've played a role too.

At competitive levels, Lucina and Marth may play differently. On casual level, the tipper mechanic is not something someone will pick up. Roy may have evolved to be different, but there are very clearly 4 variations of movesets from Marth's original.

As far as Alph- it seems to be just about time. If they wanted to for Olimar and Alph, they could have just given one the spawn White and Purple Pikmin, instead of Olimar. They could have made them spawn two in a row. Clearly giving them different properties (a very, very minor difference, which is all Richter has, which barely matters in gameplay) isn't all that difficult. The Pikmin Chain is also a way they wouldn't have had to go to much effort in coding.

It could also be possible that Pikmin 4 actually did exist, and Sakurai may have used a new Pikmin type for Alph- but when the game was scrapped, Alph was made an alt.

We really only have conjecture- but we do know the effort was put into making Chrom and Lucina instead of Alph, or anyone else.
Question- I don't much play as Chrom. He really has Ike's moveset? I thought it was Marth's moveset, with one variant being Ike's up special.

 

[PeridotGX]

At competitive levels, Lucina and Marth may play differently. On casual level, the tipper mechanic is not something someone will pick up. Roy may have evolved to be different, but there are very clearly 4 variations of movesets from Marth's original.

As far as Alph- it seems to be just about time. If they wanted to for Olimar and Alph, they could have just given one the spawn White and Purple Pikmin, instead of Olimar. They could have made them spawn two in a row. Clearly giving them different properties (a very, very minor difference, which is all Richter has, which barely matters in gameplay) isn't all that difficult. The Pikmin Chain is also a way they wouldn't have had to go to much effort in coding.

It could also be possible that Pikmin 4 actually did exist, and Sakurai may have used a new Pikmin type for Alph- but when the game was scrapped, Alph was made an alt.

We really only have conjecture- but we do know the effort was put into making Chrom and Lucina instead of Alph, or anyone else.
Question- I don't much play as Chrom. He really has Ike's moveset? I thought it was Marth's moveset, with one variant being Ike's up special.

Chrom is Roy with Lucina's balanced blade and Ike's Up B.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I at least want Richter to get Hydro Storm as a final smash instead of a carbon copy of Simon’s

and Lucina to use the crossbow she used in Codename STEAM and Project X Zone 2

and maybe Daisy to have some Sports game related moves

I want variation in Zelda. Sakurai didn't bother to change them at all- I don't even know why Link has the bombs if he wasn't going to, at least, have the glider recovery- even if it is only the boost up. But it would have been so easy to just have the Champions appear (or not) for Link to use Daruk's shield, have Mipha when he respawns, and- one that would take moderate work, is having his side smash be Urbosa's fury. All of this could literally involve simply animation changes- not even to say giving him one more rune as a weapon. But- nope- none of this was done.
The Link's all have to keep their final smashes.
Sincerely, the neglect to Zelda is quite upsetting.

Chrom is Roy with Lucina's balanced blade and Ike's Up B.

Thanks. So... he is not an Ike clone, and they placed him their (after... 1 move?) to be able to continue to favor Fire Emblem. Confirmation.

Who knows? Maybe they simply weren't big fans of Pikmin

That's been my whole point when I talk about favortism.
(And to your other point of using other Captain's- they could use Brittany, but Louie is a lot taller... and Charlie is chubbier)

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I want variation in Zelda. Sakurai didn't bother to change them at all- I don't even know why Link has the bombs if he wasn't going to, at least, have the glider recovery- even if it is only the boost up. But it would have been so easy to just have the Champions appear (or not) for Link to use Daruk's shield, have Mipha when he respawns, and- one that would take moderate work, is having his side smash be Urbosa's fury. All of this could literally involve simply animation changes- not even to say giving him one more rune as a weapon. But- nope- none of this was done.
The Link's all have to keep their final smashes.
Sincerely, the neglect to Zelda is quite upsetting.

We were talking about Echoes originally. Last I checked Zelda’s not an Echo

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I think they only did Alph because:

• Louie has different proportions, and would need to be reanimated.
• The President has different proportions, though he's probably the most workable. On the other hand, he also seems to be the least popular Captain.
• Charlie has different proportions, and would require a larger hitbox.
• Brittany would be pretty easy, but including both her and Alph would cause there to be an uneven number of alts, which would mean that someone would have to get short changed in terms of pallet swaps unless they wanted to make an exception in terms of how many they gave the character overall (like with Wario and Little Mac in previous titles).

Ye. That was what I was alluding to with my final sentence.

Is there a reason why they were able to do the Koopalings all in one alt even though those characters have vastly different proportions that doesn't apply to the Pikmin captains? Also I could see slight uneven numbers of alts like they did with Steve and the other Minecraft characters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

oh


In Lucina's case, it was more of a use of the scale tool, so she didn't have to be rigged differently and reanimated. The change itself is kind of weird though. It was made for no reason, and then reverted for no reason.


Yeah. It would be an...interesting combination, but it could probably work.


Mushroom Pikmin wouldn't make sense for any of the captains to have since they are just normal Pikmin that have been infected by a Puff Stool; the only difference between a Pikmin and its mushroom counterpart is their design, the fact that they're hostile to the captains, and the fact that normal Pikmin will attack them.

Bulbmin would also be a little weird, but they can be friendly to the player, so it wouldn't be too bad to give this type to them. How exactly they'd act I dunno. They resist everything but being crushed so maybe they just ignore Fire, Water, and Electric attacks?

This makes it sound like Pikmin & Alph would serve better under the regular clone label then, depending upon how Echoes work. If the Pikmin matter entirely, clone. if they don't, Echo. Albeit, the massive differences in moveset that can happen also could affect the label.

Regardless, fair point on Lucina. I've been doing scale stuff with sprites lately in a similar manner. It's had... odd results. XD Then again, remember Ganonchu?

Is there a reason why they were able to do the Koopalings all in one alt even though those characters have vastly different proportions that doesn't apply to the Pikmin captains? Also I could see slight uneven numbers of alts like they did with Steve and the other Minecraft characters.

Actually, the Koopalings were extremely similar and the reason it worked was cause of the Koopa Clown Car. They aren't that different overall.

And true on the uneven numbers. We've seen that with Joker too. it's clear it's not some rule to try and be "organized neatly", if you will. Though I would've liked a skin based upon, say, Villager and Herobrine, so.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I have a lot of thoughts about this alternate universe, but not the willpower to write them all. Good writeup though.

Here's one big question: What does the 7th Gen look like? Does Nintendo still go Blue Ocean, or do they give another shot at a "real" console? I can't see Sega being big fans of the Wii direction, and I would imagine they have some say. And, of course, that makes for an even bigger divergence later on.

From what I recall- Sega was similar to Nintendo, as far as choosing to continually innovate. The were the first to add internet to the consoles, and to have screens on the console. They were far ahead of their time.

We were talking about Echoes originally. Last I checked Zelda’s not an Echo

I diverged to talk about Zelda's misrepresentation, based on the quotation in that post (Easy changes to characters in the game).

This makes it sound like Pikmin & Alph would serve better under the regular clone label then, depending upon how Echoes work. If the Pikmin matter entirely, clone. if they don't, Echo. Albeit, the massive differences in moveset that can happen also could affect the label.

If they didn't want to just change the Pikmin ordering, or keep in Pikmin chain, to make Alph stand out- they also could have just changed the trajectory, throw speed, startup speed, or some other stat to the character, to make it different. Perhaps Alph, who isn't the first to use the Pikmin (since Olimar is the first), has more efficiency- and plucks and throws faster. That is about the same reasoning as Lucina being less technically skilled and having no Pikmin.
Not changing Alph is simply because they didn't want to.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Thanks. So... he is not an Ike clone, and they placed him their (after... 1 move?) to be able to continue to favor Fire Emblem. Confirmation.

What? How does Chrom's status as an Ike clone (or lack thereof) have anything to do with this conclusion?

Honestly, it's probably not incorrect to say that the reason why he got into Ultimate was ironically because the dev team crapped on him in ssb4; A lot of people thought he got did dirty, and he became popular as a result, causing him to be picked due to popularity.

Is there a reason why they were able to do the Koopalings all in one alt even though those characters have vastly different proportions that doesn't apply to the Pikmin captains?

The fact that their proportions weren't as different orignially:

Spoiler: Image

and that the Koopa Clown Car could mask how weird they look most of the time.

Also I could see slight uneven numbers of alts like they did with Steve and the other Minecraft characters.

Steve is a little different since it goes Steve, Alex, Steve, Alex, Steve, Alex, Zombie, Enderman. Zombie and Enderman don't get the same number of alts, but it does still kind of make sense in the way that they're both Mob alts. With Olimar, Alph, and Britanny, it would have been Olimar, Alph, Brittany, Olimar, Alph, Brittany, Olimar, Alph. Brittanny just gets one less for the arbitrary reason of "we only wanted the character to have 8 color slots". Does that make sense?

 

[Cosmic77]

If we go by Sakurai's logic for a majority of the Echoes added in Ultimate, Alph didn't even need a moveset with noticeable differences from Olimar. Literally all they had to do was throw in a few new taunts, maybe update the model, and that's it.

It really is unfortunate that Alph debuted with Lucina and Dark Pit, yet Sakurai couldn't think of anything at all to warrant making him a separate character. It stinks, because he really did deserve better.

 

[pupNapoleon]

What? How does Chrom's status as an Ike clone (or lack thereof) have anything to do with this conclusion?

That they didn't want to have two echoes right next to each other, so they even make illogical choices, like calling Chrom an echo of Ike, just to not show that Fire Emblem has two clones based off of one character (not including Roy from earlier).

 

[Inferno7]

If we go by Sakurai's logic for a majority of the Echoes added in Ultimate, Alph didn't even need a moveset with noticeable differences from Olimar. Literally all they had to do was throw in a few new taunts, maybe update the model, and that's it.

It really is unfortunate that Alph debuted with Lucina and Dark Pit, yet Sakurai couldn't think of anything at all to warrant making him a separate character. It stinks, because he really did deserve better.

This

If you see at some of the echoes you'll notice there barely are any differences if at all. IIRC Richter is virtually the same as Simon save for the blue fire (which kills Red Pikmins for some reason), Daisy is the same save for the Down B RNG, and Dark Samus just seems like a bit floatier reskin. Chrom and Ken seem to be the exception, not the norm.

With this we know that some new taunts (and maybe a Rock Pikmin reskin for the Purple ones, not even changing stats) and victory animations were literally all that was needed.

Only explanations I can think of are
1. Pikmin being niche therefore not receiving too much acknowledgement
2. The fact that the japanese version lists both as Pikmin & Olimar/Alph, which could maybe mean that Sakurai envisions the Pikmin as the core part of their character rather than the captains themselves

 

[GalacticPetey]

That they didn't want to have two echoes right next to each other, so they even make illogical choices, like calling Chrom an echo of Ike, just to not show that Fire Emblem has two clones based off of one character (not including Roy from earlier).

No one calls Chrom an echo of Ike, IDK where you're pulling this claim from. The game and everyone considers him a Roy echo. He's right next to Roy on the CSS.

 

[FreeFox]

This

If you see at some of the echoes you'll notice there barely are any differences if at all. IIRC Richter is virtually the same as Simon save for the blue fire (which kills Red Pikmins for some reason), Daisy is the same save for the Down B RNG, and Dark Samus just seems like a bit floatier reskin. Chrom and Ken seem to be the exception, not the norm.

With this we know that some new taunts (and maybe a Rock Pikmin reskin for the Purple ones, not even changing stats) and victory animations were literally all that was needed.

Only explanations I can think of are
1. Pikmin being niche therefore not receiving too much acknowledgement
2. The fact that the japanese version lists both as Pikmin & Olimar/Alph, which could maybe mean that Sakurai envisions the Pikmin as the core part of their character rather than the captains themselves

That is because, Richter´s flames are aura. A pretty useless unnoteworthy change but a change nevertheless
Daisy has different hitboxes to peach due to the way she stands and moves.

But yeah, there doesnt need much to make Alph work as an Echo.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I have a lot of thoughts about this alternate universe, but not the willpower to write them all. Good writeup though.

Here's one big question: What does the 7th Gen look like? Does Nintendo still go Blue Ocean, or do they give another shot at a "real" console? I can't see Sega being big fans of the Wii direction, and I would imagine they have some say. And, of course, that makes for an even bigger divergence later on.

Nintendo likely still does what they wanted to do with the Wii. Most likely change tbh would just be Dreamcast compatibility. While there might be some Sega console team members being shifted towards the R&D department, I doubt Nintendo would shift course that much at the end of the day. If Nintendo did buy them out, they would not exactly be equal partners at the end of the day. Combine that with the Gamecube technically being the most powerful system of its era and not winning, Nintendo's choice seems pretty clear cut.

The most likely change, aside from Dreamcast compatibility, would be online. I could imagine a Nintendo Sega Wii having stronger internet capabilities at the end of the day.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Question- I don't much play as Chrom. He really has Ike's moveset? I thought it was Marth's moveset, with one variant being Ike's up special.

Chrom has Roy's moveset with Ike's Up B as a canon nod.

Considering Roy's moveset is very different to Marth (about as different as Luigi, Lucas or Wolf), I can't really say Chrom has Marth's moveset.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

hat they didn't want to have two echoes right next to each other, so they even make illogical choices, like calling Chrom an echo of Ike, just to not show that Fire Emblem has two clones based off of one character (not including Roy from earlier).

They didn't call Chrom an Echo Fighter for Ike, he was always presented as Roy's Echo Fighter.

The Ike comparison comes from the fact that Chrom's Up Special is based off of Ike's, but nobody considers him to be an Echo Fighter of Ike. In terms of official comparisons, Sakurai said that he didn't pick Chrom because he believed that he would be too similar to Ike, and Robin's Palutena's Guidance does do the whole "hurr durr he'd just be an Ike clone" thing, and also states that he wouldn't have an Aether recovery (oh the irony). When it came to actually adding him though, they made it clear that he was an Echo Fighter of Roy.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They didn't call Chrom an Echo Fighter for Ike, he was always presented as Roy's Echo Fighter.

The Ike comparison comes from the fact that Chrom's Up Special is based off of Ike's, but nobody considers him to be an Echo Fighter of Ike. In terms of official comparisons, Sakurai said that he didn't pick Chrom because he believed that he would be too similar to Ike, and Robin's Palutena's Guidance does do the whole "hurr durr he'd just be an Ike clone" thing, and also states that he wouldn't have an Aether recovery (oh the irony). When it came to actually adding him though, they made it clear that he was an Echo Fighter of Roy.

Actually, Sakurai said that Chrom is too similar to Ike and Marth.

...Which makes Roy being the base funnier in hindsight, since he's in some ways like Marth and Ike combined. While a branch-off from Marth, Flare Blade and Eruption are clearly similar moves. For the most part, Roy borrows from Marth originally, but massively differentiated from him, yeah.

It's a neat coincidence in that way. It's never made clear why Roy was the base. It could be the theory that Roy is practically a cross between Marth and Ike. It could be because they have very similar bodyframes in comparison to Ike. Or something else.

 

[PeridotGX]

Actually, Sakurai said that Chrom is too similar to Ike and Marth.

...Which makes Roy being the base funnier in hindsight, since he's in some ways like Marth and Ike combined. While a branch-off from Marth, Flare Blade and Eruption are clearly similar moves. For the most part, Roy borrows from Marth originally, but massively differentiated from him, yeah.

It's a neat coincidence in that way. It's never made clear why Roy was the base. It could be the theory that Roy is practically a cross between Marth and Ike. It could be because they have very similar bodyframes in comparison to Ike. Or something else.

Lucina fighting like Chrom is a plot point in Awakening, Chrom as a Roy echo is a way to do that without having them both be identical

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Lucina fighting like Chrom is a plot point in Awakening, Chrom as a Roy echo is a way to do that without having them both be identical

I did say it was a coincidence for a reason.

But yeah, makes more sense than the fun coincidence.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Chroms inclusion in Ultimate actually got me to buy Awakening a couple years back. It was funny seeing what was essentially 4s Waluigi get his chance.

I haven’t played Awakening yet but hey at least I have it.

 

[kylexv]

Pic of the Day:

2001年のきょう､『黄金の太陽 開かれし封印』(Golden Sun)発売!!
ロビンのアシストフィギュアは､ムーブというエナジーを使います｡本編では岩や柱を動かせる便利もの｡
続編が二作出ていますが､三作目は30年後｡息子が主役です｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/wOd8IyC9lT

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) August 2, 2021

Today in 2001, "Golden Sun" (Golden Sun) is on sale !! Isaac's assist figure uses an energy called move. In this volume, it is a convenient one that can move rocks and pillars. Two sequels have been produced, but the third one is 30 years later. Isaac's son is the main character.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

On Twitter it says "my son" instead of Isaac's son.

I love Twitter

 

[FreeFox]

Golden Sun! sniff One day, you will get in smash, Isaac.

 

[3BitSaurus]

On Twitter it says "my son" instead of Isaac's son.

I love Twitter

Masahiro Isaacurai. Nice.

I'm curious about the series myself, just gotta find the time to play.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I had this stupid idea that makes no sense but I still want to post it for the lol.
Imagine "Samus & The Baby" as a Rosalina & Luma echo, based on that small section at the end of Metroid 2.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Pic of the Day:

2001年のきょう､『黄金の太陽 開かれし封印』(Golden Sun)発売!!
ロビンのアシストフィギュアは､ムーブというエナジーを使います｡本編では岩や柱を動かせる便利もの｡
続編が二作出ていますが､三作目は30年後｡息子が主役です｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/wOd8IyC9lT

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) August 2, 2021

Today in 2001, "Golden Sun" (Golden Sun) is on sale !! Isaac's assist figure uses an energy called move. In this volume, it is a convenient one that can move rocks and pillars. Two sequels have been produced, but the third one is 30 years later. Isaac's son is the main character.

Ah, I really do love Golden Sun.

Hopefully it can come back some day.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

On Twitter it says "my son" instead of Isaac's son.

I love Twitter

Wow, I didn't know Kirby was a main character in the Golden Sun series! You learn something new everyday.

 

[skylanders fan]

Golden Sun! sniff One day, you will get in smash, Isaac.

He already is in smash he is in ultimate and was in brawl too

 

[pupNapoleon]

No one calls Chrom an echo of Ike, IDK where you're pulling this claim from. The game and everyone considers him a Roy echo. He's right next to Roy on the CSS.

Thanks, that's where I was confused.

 

[Guynamednelson]

He already is in smash he is in ultimate and was in brawl too

Yes, but in a way that counts. which will be next month