Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[DarthEnderX]

As gamers get older and more tired of light hearted adventures SMT’s appeal will continue to grow, especially now that the cultural stigma behind demonic iconography is gone.

You must be, like, 16. Otherwise, you'd know that once you get older, the exact opposite happens. Gritty grimdark is for teenagers and college kids. Middle-aged people get tired of that **** and don't need to be reminded how crappy the world is while trying to unwind.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

You must be, like, 16. Otherwise, you'd know that once you get older, the exact opposite happens. Gritty grimdark is for teenagers and college kids. Middle-aged people get tired of that **** and don't need to be reminded how crappy the world is while trying to unwind.

Can confirm, am edgy teenager.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Yeah, at best you can call it an aesthetic, but calling it a genre just doesn’t make much sense.

Yeah, I edited the word before- it was improper and just a conflation from something else in my head.

I guess, but they aren’t even close in terms of importance.

The NES saved the gaming market and set the foundation for all consoles moving forward.

The Wii was a one hit wonder who’s successor failed painfully, and its innovations were largely ignored by the rest of the industry.

I disagree.
The NES, in many ways, started the video game industry. Before this, it was arcades and one-game consoles. Nintendo isn't even the first to use the cartridge system at home.
Meanwhile, the Wii introduced people who would never have gamed, to get into the field, entirely. It created an entire userbase out of people not even interested in the field. As far as 'ignored by the rest of the industry,' that's just blatantly untrue. Competitors were aggressively trying to duplicate the success of the Wii. It's also no coincidence that shortly after is when VR became a lot more prominent.
If the NES "saved," the market, the Wii grew the market it to realms unimaginable- which meant more studios, more games, more options, more respect, for the entire industry.

I don’t remember shadow being the same as sonic in

sonic colours ds
Sonic forces
Sonic generations
Sonic boom
Sonic boom tv
Sonic x
Shadow the hedgehog
Sa2
Sonic and the black knite
Sonic chronicles
Sonic boom the phone game

all these are literally games or shows that he’s different from sonic in and before someone says “he plays the same in sonic forces as sonic” he doesn’t, he has the light speed dash which is something sonic doesn’t have and he has his abilities in the cutscenes

In Sonic Adventure, Sonic Heroes, Sonic Riders, Shadow is almost identical.
Several of the games you mentioned, including Forces, Shadow is nearly identical.
In these games, and several others of what you listed, Shadow does everything Sonic's current moveset in Smash does.
The game where they tried to make him his own, unique entity in full- his titular title, is a characterization that was mostly removed in future Sonic games.
They each have one or two differences, that- guess what- weren't seen as important enough for Sonic.
The core of Shadow's moves is exactly what Sonic currently does in Brawl. Spin, roll, home, run fast.
You could make an entire moveset out of him teleporting around the stage and punching- but that isn't what Shadow is known to do.
Just because he can do it doesn't mean it is the best way to represent the character.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

it may be the perfect video game.

Dang, seems you really like it and I'm glad.

Might get it on Steam (its $14.99)

 

[pupNapoleon]

My biggest gripe with Echoes is that a majority of the ones added in Ultimate could easily pass as costumes; nearly perfect carbon copies of the character they were inspired from, and that doesn't feel fair for characters like Daisy and Dark Samus. Both have plenty of material for at least one unique attack. Chrom is a good example of what we could've gotten, which is ironic considering how he's an Echo of a semi-clone. Making Daisy and Dark Samus more unique than Chrom should've been braindead easy.

Not saying that every Echo needs to be Ken, but man, it would be a hollow victory for me if one of my most wanted characters finally got in Smash, only for said character to have a nearly identical moveset slapped on them.

I can agree with this. They didn't go far enough with some characters- I don't even understand why they removed the variant trajectory from Daisy.
But I am not surprised Chrom got special treatment- it was bound to happen, as it is always the case- factually, not an emotionally based statement.

Are we talking about additional echo fighters?

View attachment 324386

Y'all not ready for her.

I'd consider it a wasted echo slot, personally- since I find Bayonetta's inclusion to be unnecessary in the first place.

"The battle ended with the victory of..."

Pup Napoleon

Sorry I keep hearing that in my head with the same voice dude as was in sc2 on gc. Carry on

I have no idea to what you reference, but I think everyone should hit like on your post.

Dang, seems you really like it and I'm glad.

Might get it on Steam (its $14.99)

Taking it in from an artistic standpoint, it was genius, in my eyes. I am a big fan of the games by ThatGameCompany.

 

[MattX20]

W Willbuysmash4mw let me see if I have your argument right.

Nintendo meant to have Pass 1 consist of 4 characters. Hero, Banjo, Terry, and Nahobino.

SMT V was delayed however, and this plan couldn’t work. So Nintendo decided to replace Nahobino with Byleth and then added Joker as a plus for whatever reason.

Then, Nintendo decided to make and structure Pass 2 around SMT Vs release date so Nahobino would be the last character and promote the game just in time.

If I have your logic wrong, please correct me.

If I have your logic right. Please provide proof that this was what occurred. Not some coincidence that 3 Houses and SMT V were in development around the same time. Some real, irrefutable proof that proves for a fact Nintendo has signed off on 7 other characters specifically because of Nahobino.

The development timeline is why I'm skeptical as well, and I agree that this line of logic is head-scratching at best. Even if you factor in the remake of Nocturne, it still doesn't seem to jive with the timeline that the DLC characters were decided on by the end of 2018 and negotiations for all characters concluded by the end of the following year.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

You know, I would've loved to see House of the Dead represented in Smash in some way. Maybe with the Magician as a boss and/or Assist Trophy (maybe both, a la Rathalos)

Tut tut tut. No mention of Rikiya Busujima when he's right there.

I don't speak Japanese but I hope he's expressing how disappointed he is with you.

 

[pupNapoleon]

-Idk about Diddy, but even then I think you could make the argument that double-dipping on DK, a spin-off series would be a tad bit too much (I know about FE, but I can't see someone as Dixie or K. Rool having a CP slot full of spirits and music). I still find her omission to be very glaring though.

I mean- Donkey Kong isn't a spinoff series. Technically, it shares a universe with Mario- and if we are going into technically, then Mario is the spinoff. But I don't see why this matters- spinoff Mario titles are their own successful series, to the point that Kart, Sports, and Party are all their own, individual entities on sales charts. And they are all massively successful, commercially and financially, on their own accords.

I'm also not sure why two characters in one game is a problem. We saw it with Metroid in this game. We saw it with CASTLEVANIA in this game. We saw it in FE in this game (adding in DLC, which might defeat your point, but I think is even more extreme than your point, since it is additional money put forth).

I also don't see why it would matter, as DK series alone was, for a long time, the fourth highest grossing Nintendo IP. It having only 3 characters is crazy.
And I know you didn't want to get into FE, but since you brought it up in comparison to DK- FE is the only series to have three characters who are only in one mainline game. Fire Emblem is the only series in Smash to have 4 characters based on one moveset (with Link and Mario being 3 each). Fire Emblem has 2x been the promotional, most recent pick, despite having other options. Fire Emblem is the only game to have gotten into Melee specifically to introduce it to the West. Fire Emblem is constantly the exception to the rule, despite only moderate sales.

 

[volbound1700]

There are actual humans in the games that aren't Hylian.

Sorry, I haven't been on here in a while but I never knew that. I would have written them off as Hylians when I played the game. The funny thing, I almost wonder if they were mistakes more than an intention to have humans in Hyrule.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Good to know you didn't read the other half of my post in which I said the exact same thing.

I did read it, which is why I mentioned it? And then related it to another field?
I'm not sure why you're angry.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

W Willbuysmash4mw let me see if I have your argument right.

Nintendo meant to have Pass 1 consist of 4 characters. Hero, Banjo, Terry, and Nahobino.

SMT V was delayed however, and this plan couldn’t work. So Nintendo decided to replace Nahobino with Byleth and then added Joker as a plus for whatever reason.

Then, Nintendo decided to make and structure Pass 2 around SMT Vs release date so Nahobino would be the last character and promote the game just in time.

If I have your logic wrong, please correct me.

If I have your logic right. Please provide proof that this was what occurred. Not some coincidence that 3 Houses and SMT V were in development around the same time. Some real, irrefutable proof that proves for a fact Nintendo has signed off on 7 other characters specifically because of Nahobino.

No, pass 1 was supposed to be Hero, Banjo, Terry, Byleth and Nahobino(not necessarily in that order). Still 5 characters because that was what Nintendo originally said there would be.

Joker was added as a plus when Nintendo realized that both Three Houses and SMT V were massively delayed but Byleth still barely made pass 1 as the final character despite that spot being planned for Nahobino. Nintendo planned for Three Houses to be released in 2018(according to the Fire Emblem direct) when pass 1 was decided, Byleth would not be the final pass 1 character in that case. SMT V got two trailers in 2017 and then nothing until July 2020, Atlus was obviously not originally planning on releasing SMT V any later than early 2020 and most likely it would have been 2019 in the same spot as Three Houses’ marketing schedule.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I did read it, which is why I mentioned it? And then related it to another field?
I'm not sure why you're angry.

Likely due to miscommunication: Since your additions to the original statement are carried through subtext it mostly looks like you just restated what they said as your counterargument.

 

[subterrestrial]

very interesting theories in here

lol so not only is nahobino 100% the last character in fp2 but he was also supposed to be the last character in fp1 ?

 

[Theguy123]

Take it as you will but Samus Hunter is doubling down on the smash reveal being in the September direct

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm surprised y'all are willing to keep this up, I swear this argument's gone on for days now, feel like any sane person would just slap the big ol' ignore button

 

[pupNapoleon]

Because Sakurai also said “by the end of the year”.

When you combine “a while” and “by the end of the year” you don’t get September.

In the case of Smash Ultimate dlc reveals 3 months is literally the shortest time period you can wait between characters without a double reveal, even the double reveal of Hero and Banjo took 2 months.

You can feel as you want, but I'm fairly certain it was left obscure for the sake of being obscure. Sakurai also said before E3 that work on both characters was almost done. I'm not reading into that, either.

 

[Sucumbio]

I can agree with this. They didn't go far enough with some characters- I don't even understand why they removed the variant trajectory from Daisy.
But I am not surprised Chrom got special treatment- it was bound to happen, as it is always the case- factually, not an emotionally based statement.

I'd consider it a wasted echo slot, personally- since I find Bayonetta's inclusion to be unnecessary in the first place.

I have no idea to what you reference, but I think everyone should hit like on your post.

Taking it in from an artistic standpoint, it was genius, in my eyes. I am a big fan of the games by ThatGameCompany.

Though technically this is from soul blade the na psx game but for some reason I couldn't find one from soul calibur 2 which btw had some awesome crossover characters like Link, Yoda etc. SC had a nifty create your own fighter mode.... Heh

 

[pupNapoleon]

Because all of pass 2 is filler to buy time until SMT V.

What is it called when the filling is more prominent than the main item?

There is no reason for pass 2 to exist or to be the final pass unless there is a character in it that Nintendo desperately wants to reveal to finalize the dlc, and the only character that fits that is Nahobino.

Yeah! F*** money! F*** fan engagement! F*** company relations! F*** Sakurai's desires to work with gaming legends! The only thing important is to get that character owned by that other company.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Though technically this is from soul blade the na psx game but for some reason I couldn't find one from soul calibur 2 which btw had some awesome crossover characters like Link, Yoda etc. SC had a nifty create your own fighter mode.... Heh

"The grueling battle ends with the victory of you win!"

 

[PeridotGX]

No, pass 1 was supposed to be Hero, Banjo, Terry, Byleth and Nahobino(not necessarily in that order). Still 5 characters because that was what Nintendo originally said there would be.

Joker was added as a plus when Nintendo realized that both Three Houses and SMT V were massively delayed but Byleth still barely made pass 1 as the final character despite that spot being planned for Nahobino. Nintendo planned for Three Houses to be released in 2018(according to the Fire Emblem direct) when pass 1 was decided, Byleth would not be the final pass 1 character in that case. SMT V got two trailers in 2017 and then nothing until July 2020, Atlus was obviously not originally planning on releasing SMT V any later than early 2020 and most likely it would have been 2019 in the same spot as Three Houses’ marketing schedule.

so... why was Joker made the first character of the pass if he was added extremely late (you're implying he was added in November of 2018)? Wouldn't it make more sense to bring Hero/Banjo/Terry forwards than to shove a character who had literally no work done on them out the gate?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What is it called when the filling is more prominent than the main item?

A doughnut? Lava cake? Come to think of it, most filled pastries have filling as their main selling point...


Now I want donuts.

EDIT: I really did just get told by the spell correct that it's "doughnut" and not "donut", correct my mistake, and then proceed to spell it "donut" again huh...

 

[Speed Weed]

Tut tut tut. No mention of Rikiya Busujima when he's right there.

View attachment 324410

I don't speak Japanese but I hope he's expressing how disappointed he is with you.

The rise of Busujima Gang (TM) will be the most based thing to ever happen to speculation

 

[Dan Quixote]

I'm surprised y'all are willing to keep this up, I swear this argument's gone on for days now, feel like any sane person would just slap the big ol' ignore button

Dude mooooood... I've honestly lost track of what the argument is at this point.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

so... why was Joker made the first character of the pass if he was added extremely late (you're implying he was added in November of 2018)? Wouldn't it make more sense to bring Hero/Banjo/Terry forwards than to shove a character who had literally no work done on them out the gate?

None of the characters had work done on them at that point. We would have waited a long time for the 1st character no matter who they picked.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I'm surprised y'all are willing to keep this up, I swear this argument's gone on for days now, feel like any sane person would just slap the big ol' ignore button

Your assuming that most of us are sane.

 

[pupNapoleon]

SMT V is the biggest 3rd party exclusive the Switch has, it makes a hell of a lot of difference.
Nahobino was supposed to be in pass 1 as the final character.

Monster Hunter Rise sold 5million copies in the first month.
Monster Hunter Rise is in the top 20 games sold on the Switch.
Monster Hunter Rise is Capcom's second best selling game on a single platform.
Monster Hunter Rise is very likely to sell more than SMT V.

You do realize, it's comments like yours that turn people off to the character, right? It isn't cute.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I disagree.
The NES, in many ways, started the video game industry. Before this, it was arcades and one-game consoles. Nintendo isn't even the first to use the cartridge system at home.

Many fair points in here, but I do still disagree. While the NES certainly didn’t pioneer many concepts. It compiled and popularised them in a way that forced all other companies to compete with it, thus setting the standard and framework for the industry to come.

Meanwhile, the Wii introduced people who would never have gamed, to get into the field, entirely. It created an entire userbase out of people not even interested in the field. As far as 'ignored by the rest of the industry,' that's just blatantly untrue. Competitors were aggressively trying to duplicate the success of the Wii. It's also no coincidence that shortly after is when VR became a lot more prominent.
If the NES "saved," the market, the Wii grew the market it to realms unimaginable- which meant more studios, more games, more options, more respect, for the entire industry.

While it is true the Wii captured an audience not known for playing Video Games, it failed horribly at retaining said audience. As we all know, the Wii U was the Wii U.

As for VR, that came via coincidence. Its complicated, but boiling it down the founder of Oculus really liked the idea of VR, but hated how cost ineffective they were. And thus started developing his own, before eventually gaining the attention of doom creator and absolute giga mind, John Carmack. Heres a link if your interested. Doesn’t have anything to do with the wii to my knowledge.

While it is true Sony and Microsoft tried to compete with the Playstation Move and Xbox Kinect respectively, they both failed and gave up. The Wii didn’t make any massive changes to the way games are played today. Rather it captured lightning in a bottle.

No, pass 1 was supposed to be Hero, Banjo, Terry, Byleth and Nahobino(not necessarily in that order). Still 5 characters because that was what Nintendo originally said there would be.

Joker was added as a plus when Nintendo realized that both Three Houses and SMT V were massively delayed but Byleth still barely made pass 1 as the final character despite that spot being planned for Nahobino. Nintendo planned for Three Houses to be released in 2018(according to the Fire Emblem direct) when pass 1 was decided, Byleth would not be the final pass 1 character in that case. SMT V got two trailers in 2017 and then nothing until July 2020, Atlus was obviously not originally planning on releasing SMT V any later than early 2020 and most likely it would have been 2019 in the same spot as Three Houses’ marketing schedule.

Okay, now that we have your full argument and know what you’re trying to prove. What evidence do you have that implies this was the case?

 

[SNEKeater]

Because all of pass 2 is filler to buy time until SMT V.

Dude seriously, no offense but you should stop with that attitude of assuming Nahobino is a lock.
I mean if you're super convinced he's the last character that's cool, but don't treat your deduction or prediction as the absolute truth.

Sometimes I think you're just kinda trolling people with some of your posts, but if not, you're not really doing yourself and your "cause" a favor. By almost spamming the same opinion everytime you're not gonna convince people, if anything by talking so much about it and in such confident way you will make other people to feel rejection towards Nahobino or SMT, which I don't really like.

Like... Saying all the entire Pass 2 was made to buy time until SMTV's release is just insane. It doesn't make sense. As you know I think Nahobino isn't out of the running for CP11, but that's one thing. Believing Nintendo just chose Sephiroth, Kazuya and Steve, among others, only because of SMTV is just dumb, for god's sake.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Dude mooooood... I've honestly lost track of what the argument is at this point.

I think it's:

1. Genres.
2. Whether or not Nahobino was the sole reason for Fighter's Pass 2 (which has really escalated since the original thesis).
3. "deservitude"

 

[pupNapoleon]

It's been one heated debate after another recently, so I hope this doesn't just get buried or anything (and hopefully sparks some not emotionally charged discussions).

I don't think it is correct to call the fallacy of Nabahiro and SMT a debate. Debates use points and counterpoints based in reality.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don't think it is correct to call the fallacy of Nabahiro and SMT a debate. Debates use points and counterpoints based in reality.

Eh, heated arguments anyway.

Or just, people yelling at each other. That works too.

 

[FreeFox]

I'm surprised y'all are willing to keep this up, I swear this argument's gone on for days now, feel like any sane person would just slap the big ol' ignore button

I bit ashamed to admit it but I kinda like watching the insanity unfold. Last time, Will attacked their own argument. You cant make stuff like this happen in any other type of discussion.

 

[pupNapoleon]

In Japan SMT V will easily be one of the best selling games of the year and have comparable sales to Persona 5 or even surpass it if it is good enough to bridge the smaller gap there. People in Japan don’t really see Persona and SMT as any more niche than the other, they either like both or they only like one while still understanding the other franchise is related to the one they like and attracts a similar customer base.

Cool- then SMT V will see a WHOPPING 1.3 Million sales. That was considered a flop, for ARMS.
I guess SMT V is a gonna be a flop.

W Willbuysmash4mw let me see if I have your argument right.

Nintendo meant to have Pass 1 consist of 4 characters. Hero, Banjo, Terry, and Nahobino.

SMT V was delayed however, and this plan couldn’t work. So Nintendo decided to replace Nahobino with Byleth and then added Joker as a plus for whatever reason.

Then, Nintendo decided to make and structure Pass 2 around SMT Vs release date so Nahobino would be the last character and promote the game just in time.

If I have your logic wrong, please correct me.

If I have your logic right. Please provide proof that this was what occurred. Not some coincidence that 3 Houses and SMT V were in development around the same time. Some real, irrefutable proof that proves for a fact Nintendo has signed off on 7 other characters specifically because of Nahobino.

It is impossible to prove something does not exist.

 

[Willbuysmash4mw]

Monster Hunter Rise sold 5million copies in the first month.
Monster Hunter Rise is in the top 20 games sold on the Switch.
Monster Hunter Rise is Capcom's second best selling game on a single platform.
Monster Hunter Rise is very likely to sell more than SMT V.

You do realize, it's comments like yours that turn people off to the character, right? It isn't cute.

I have already explained why Rise is not an exclusive and why SMT V is bigger for the Switch. It has nothing to do with sales(if SMT V sold as well or better than Rise it would completely blow out Persona 5).

Rise is coming to PC, Rise is not as big in scope as SMT V is and arguably doesn’t look as good as SMT V graphically despite being much smaller in scope.

There is nothing on the Switch right now that shows off the capabilities of the system better than SMT V; not Breath of the Wild, not Xenoblade 2, not Astral Chain, not Monster Hunter Rise. You have a massive open world set in both a destroyed Tokyo(and probably more than just Tokyo)and a still functioning one with excellent animations and character models that are comparable with Smash Ultimate. SMT V is the game that Pokémon Sword and Shield wishes it was.

 

[subterrestrial]

I feel like the emmi bot in Metroid dread is a HUGE sleeper pick rn

 

[pupNapoleon]

I have already explained why Rise is not an exclusive and why SMT V is bigger for the Switch. It has nothing to do with sales(if SMT V sold as well or better than Rise it would completely blow out Persona 5).

Rise is coming to PC, Rise is not as big in scope as SMT V is and arguably doesn’t look as good as SMT V graphically despite being much smaller in scope.

There is nothing on the Switch right now that shows off the capabilities of the system better than SMT V; not Breath of the Wild, not Xenoblade 2, not Astral Chain, not Monster Hunter Rise. You have a massive open world set in both a destroyed Tokyo(and probably more than just Tokyo)and a still functioning one with excellent animations and character models that are comparable with Smash Ultimate. SMT V is the game that Pokémon Sword and Shield wishes it was.

No, you have explained why Rise will become a non exclusive. It is still achieving the success it is achieving as an exclusive.
Also, you are speaking vaguely. What shows off the capabilities of the Switch? To me, and many, and to the entire marketing team, the capabilities of the switch are 3 modes of play/ switching from docked to undocked, having two controllers on hand at all time, and being an indie power house. What does SMT have to do with any of this? To my knowledge, SMT fails at all of these endeavors- meaning, it doesn't highlight any of what the Switch does. By your own logic, it must be a full failure of showcase.

Anyway, I think you are right- SMT will be like Persona 5. It will sell 1.3 million copies, and then disappear.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

See if Nahohino never existed we wouldn't have this argument

So blame Atlus

 

[Garteam]

Cool- then SMT V will see a WHOPPING 1.3 Million sales. That was considered a flop, for ARMS.

ARMS sold 2 million. Most devs would kill to have a new IP with those kinds of numbers, especially in a genre that has traditionally struggled commercially.

 

[pupNapoleon]

ARMS sold 2 million. Most devs would kill to have a new IP with those kinds of numbers, especially in a genre that has traditionally struggled commercially.

Oh, my bad. I have old data.
Also- that's part of my point. ARMS is not a flop, it's funny to me when it is called such. It has sold more than majority of FE games.

 

[PeridotGX]

When we get a smt rep but it isn't Nabohino