Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Mapusaurus]

I mean, sure zelda hasn't gotten a rep since brawl but that is also true for kirby, star fox, yoshi and wario all series that are big enough to warrant a second rep and while yes these franchises still have a chance, I don't think you'll find many genuinely predicting characters from that game to join even if you factor in the possibility of further dlc. If you go through the list of newcomers bar maybe plant you cant really say "why wasn't that zelda" nor can you really say that any of the others should've gotten in either. The truth is that ultimate was an unprecedented entry to the series and due to the everyone is here brigade most newcomers came from new worlds or were requested for a while, neither of which fit a zelda newcomer, there's no need to feel like zelda wont get any new reps in future smash games nor is any change needed in how characters are supported

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Idk what yall are talking about but imagine how cool it would of been if Joker came with Catherines version of Mussorgsky

 

[Dinoman96]

Or a Pokémon, or from Fire Emblem, or a famous villain etc. I really don‘t think Zelda characters are off the table for being one-offs when the asterisks keep piling up and it’s lowkey a stupid rule anyway. Regardless of their appearance status, Midna or Skull Kid definitely made an impact.

Personally, I feel like they're off the table when we're like five games in and there has yet to be a character in the position of someone like Ghirahim, a one-off secondary character that can't be made into an easy clone.

 

[I.D.]

Boy I sure enjoyed Rosalina being a major character in Odyssey, pretty bold of Miyamoto to make her a member of the main Mario cast, really unusual for him

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Personally, I feel like they're off the table when we're like five games in and there has yet to be a character in the position of someone like Ghirahim, a one-off secondary character that can't be made into an easy clone.

Just like how you thought second reps of third-party series were off the table until they weren't. I feel like going with precedence is not always a good idea.

 

[Dinoman96]

Boy I sure enjoyed Rosalina being a major character in Odyssey, pretty bold of Miyamoto to make her a member of the main Mario cast, really unusual for him

I feel like Rosalina has the perk of being a Mario character and ergo having much more visibility. Like even when she's not appearing the mainline games, she still has the spinoffs to fall back on, and she even still has some presence at Super Nintendo World.

Thread of cool sprite sheets from the Super Nintendo World portion of the Universal Japan app. pic.twitter.com/RvyGLrd606

— Jack (@Wipeoutjack7) December 19, 2020

The most Zelda one-offs can get are like, Hyrule Warriors.

Just like how you thought second reps of third-party series were off the table until they weren't. I feel like going with precedence is not always a good idea.

See, I always kinda did figure that they'd eventually starting characters like Chun-Li and Eggman for like, the next Smash. I just didn't expect them to start already doing it for the DLC this game.

 

[I.D.]

I feel like Rosalina has the perk of being a Mario character and ergo having much more visibility. Like even when she's not appearing the mainline games, she still has the spinoffs to fall back on, and she even still has some presence at Super Nintendo World.

I too feel like Rosalina doesn't count for reason

See, I always kinda did figure that they'd eventually starting characters like Chun-Li and Eggman for like, the next Smash. I just didn't expect them to start already doing it for the DLC this game.

This is like saying "I always kinda did figure that they'd eventually start adding first party characters for like, the next Smash". It's okay to admit you were wrong from time to time, nobody is going to think less of you for it.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Boy I sure enjoyed Rosalina being a major character in Odyssey, pretty bold of Miyamoto to make her a member of the main Mario cast, really unusual for him

They didn't go back and get Rosalina & Luma though. They were added because they were the relevant characters at the time. Same thing with Sheik and Zero Suit Samus.

 

[SpecterFlower]

This line of thinking has always confused me. When people say they no longer want characters because they're talked about so much. What other people request has never really had much bearing on me. I'm not gonna suddenly stop liking Doomguy because a bunch of people also want him. That just sounds like being contrarian for the sake of it.

I've seen this a few times with a lot of the really popular characters. Suddenly people don't want them because they're too requested now, which makes no sense to me. The closest I've come to this I guess has been Smash 4 Ridley or Ultimate Geno where I just want Sakurai to go ahead and rip off the band aid because it was getting too toxic and hectic. Even then, those were outliers and I still kept supporting Ridley. Geno I've always been indifferent to so I was just glad to have closure one way or another.

I think that mostly because I get so overexposed to them, sure I like DOOM but hearing about it everywhere get's so tiring I guess? in the end I guess I just really stop caring because of it. Also the super popular ones tend to have more toxic fanbases which could go a long way in making that character unappealing to me.

 

[I.D.]

They didn't go back and get Rosalina & Luma though. They were added because they were the relevant characters at the time. Same thing with Sheik and Zero Suit Samus.

What does that have to do with anything? The argument being made is that (let me check list) secondary, one-shot, non-clone characters can't be made into fighters apparently, and that the ones we do have, well, none of them count because of a bunch of secondary and tertiary circumstances that override the prime directive and that also cannot be replicated for other characters.

 

[Firox]

They didn't go back and get Rosalina & Luma though. They were added because they were the relevant characters at the time. Same thing with Sheik and Zero Suit Samus.

It's an interesting point to note how Smash itself can be seen as a snapshot of its time. Relevance is always changing so it makes sense that some characters would be added due to the general gaming climate at the time a particular smash game was made.

 

[Dinoman96]

(Rosalina technically appeared in Galaxy 2 by 2012, even if her role was smaller)

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Zelda character discussion? Oh Smashboards you rapscallion. Never change.

Anyways, I would say that the problem with a Zelda character is that the Zelda fanbase has never mobilized around any one character. Donkey Kong Country fans largely mobilized around K. Rool over Dixie and his ballot presence was large enough to get him into Smash Ultimate. Comparatively, Zelda fans support a wide variety of one-off characters with none of them gaining enough support to be a truly notable request.

I'd postulate that this is why the Zelda series has so many assist trophies, because while the characters are popular requests, none of them are popular enough to be added as a playable character.

 

[Schnee117]

My favourite one time Mario character, one who was immediately added to the earliest spin-off possible and had a presence in two more mainline games beyond her debut where one of them was even as an unlockable playable character and this was all still before Smash 4.

Some of you really need to lay off of being dishonest all the time.

 

[ahemtoday]

I just had one of the dumbest ideas I think I could sensibly defend as a character choice.

Zork representative.

 

[RileyXY1]

They wouldn't have to be a clone, in fact if they believed the character to be good enough for DLC then they would 100% be a semi-clone at the very least. Heck, they could even use the Octolings's territorial nature to justify changing how their ink mechanic works so it's more in line with how it actually works in Splatoon. Alongside a bunch of weapons that the Inkling doesn't have of course.

Even a Semi-Clone won't cut it when every other DLC character is wildly unique with ambitious gimmicks. Octoling is better suited for the next Smash's base game.

 

[Dinoman96]

My favourite one time Mario character, one who was immediately added to the earliest spin-off possible and had a presence in two more mainline games beyond her debut where one of them was even as an unlockable playable character and this was all still before Smash 4.

Some of you really need to lay off of being dishonest all the time.

I agree, but to be fair, Sakurai planned on including Rosalina back in early 2012, long before 3D World got announced with Rosie in it. So it's kinda questionable how much that game played into her inclusion.

 

[SneakyLink]

I just had one of the dumbest ideas I think I could sensibly defend as a character choice.

Zork representative.

Zork is a text based adventure series correct? How could a character from that genre translate into Smash?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Your conclusion is fair, but the music thing is really a non-issue. They either decide to remove the songs from all of the Other stages since it doesn't really fit any of them anyway, or-more likely imo-they decide to leave them in both the Other and the Monster Hunter tracklists so that no-one is missing content.

I mean, I can pretty easily picture Sakurai right now: "So you might be wondering about the 2 Monster Hunter songs already in the game. They were put in the "Other" track lists, allowing them to be played on a lot of the game's stages. We thought about removing them from this list but...that's just so many stages you wouldn't be able to play them on anymore right? So we decided to let them stay in the track selection for these stages while also adding them to their rightful place in the new Monster Hunter tracklist."


They wouldn't have to be a clone, in fact if they believed the character to be good enough for DLC then they would 100% be a semi-clone at the very least. Heck, they could even use the Octolings's territorial nature to justify changing how their ink mechanic works so it's more in line with how it actually works in Splatoon. Alongside a bunch of weapons that the Inkling doesn't have of course.


Well, I don't have much of a horse in the race, but I will say that there is unfortunately an incorrect answer in Vaati; It'd just be a repeat of Geno.

How about referencing Octo Expansion for the Octoling’s play style? Harder hitting but easier to punish

 

[I.D.]

My favourite one time Mario character, one who was immediately added to the earliest spin-off possible and had a presence in two more mainline games beyond her debut where one of them was even as an unlockable playable character and this was all still before Smash 4.

Some of you really need to lay off of being dishonest all the time.

If you wanna be like this then almost no Zelda character is a one-shot. They've all appeared in other games, even with reduced roles.

Let me put it another way: Is Rosalina a member of the main Mario cast or not? Because that's ultimately where all these arguments come from, aren't they? Something about series with main casts vs rotating casts

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Zelda character discussion? Oh Smashboards you rapscallion. Never change.

Anyways, I would say that the problem with a Zelda character is that the Zelda fanbase has never mobilized around any one character. Donkey Kong Country fans largely mobilized around K. Rool over Dixie and his ballot presence was large enough to get him into Smash Ultimate. Comparatively, Zelda fans support a wide variety of one-off characters with none of them gaining enough support to be a truly notable request.

I'd postulate that this is why the Zelda series has so many assist trophies, because while the characters are popular requests, none of them are popular enough to be added as a playable character.

So... exactly what I said last night?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I just had one of the dumbest ideas I think I could sensibly defend as a character choice.

Zork representative.

Sadly they're a game too late, the Wii U and 3DS' microphones would have a fantastic gimmick with this so you could speak commands into your controller to make them stronger!



I couldn't even finish that thought without dreading how ****ing awful that would be lmao

 

[Sklynt]

Sadly they're a game too late, the Wii U and 3DS' microphones would have a fantastic gimmick with this so you could speak commands into your controller to make them stronger!



I couldn't even finish that thought without dreading how ****ing awful that would be lmao

OOF

 

[RileyXY1]

How about referencing Octo Expansion for the Octoling’s play style? Harder hitting but easier to punish

I don't know if people would want to spend money on a clone.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What does that have to do with anything? The argument being made is that (let me check list) secondary, one-shot, non-clone characters can't be made into fighters apparently, and that the ones we do have, well, none of them count because of a bunch of secondary and tertiary circumstances that override the prime directive and that also cannot be replicated for other characters.

Hmm. OK. Yeah, I think it would be more accurate to say that one off characters are almost never added after the fact. They may get nabbed when they line up for a game as Sheik, Rosalina & Luma, and basically every Fire Emblem did, but once that period is over, they've missed their shot.

Exceptions to this are pretty much just the reps for their series (Marth, Mewtwo & Pokémon Trainer) some of which were only not in previous installments due to time constraints, and Chrom, an Echo Fighter.

So yeah, there is actually one avenue for a new The Legend of Zelda character that nobody really discusses; A big new game releasing in the correct time frame to be added to the next game.

My favourite one time Mario character, one who was immediately added to the earliest spin-off possible and had a presence in two more mainline games beyond her debut where one of them was even as an unlockable playable character and this was all still before Smash 4.

Some of you really need to lay off of being dishonest all the time.

True, she's not a one-off, but she is one of those characters that they use for a bit, and then drop into the abyss. I think comparing her to one-offs does make some sense.

Even a Semi-Clone won't cut it when every other DLC character is wildly unique with ambitious gimmicks. Octoling is better suited for the next Smash's base game.

Says you? Anyway, that's not to say that they'd even have to be a semi-clone. They could be like how Lucas and Roy are to Ness and Marth respectively, but that's just the bare minimum. The Octolings do have enough to make them completely different from the Inklings.

I don't personally think they'd be added either, but a forced clone status isn't the reason. They could make them a clone, but if they wanted them as DLC then they'd invest the time to make them unique.

 

[3BitSaurus]

To be fair with Mario, its cast tends to be consistent, typically appearing in multiple games after they're introduced, unlike Zelda where it's exceedingly rare to see returning characters that aren't Impa or a Triforce wielder.

Still not much of an excuse for why Zelda is like this though, since there's no shortage of one-off first-party reps (literally any FE rep but Marth and Ike, both Mother characters, Sheik, etc.), just pointing out that comparing Zelda to Mario isn't a fair thing to do.

No, it doesn't. I gotta say, I never understood this argument.

, to this date, only has a single appearance in a mainline Mario title (Super Mario Land). Most of her popularity comes from the spinoffs she stars in, mainly Mario Kart, Party and the sports games.

was about timing, not consistency. At the time of her inclusion, she had three mainline appearances - Mario Galaxy, MG2 and 3D World (four if you count Mario Kart, a spinoff). In the latter two, she only appears after the game is cleared. So really, it's not that Rosalina is consistent, it's just that she was being pushed at the time.

is literally a character made for a spinoff and that doesn't exist outside of it, pretty much. He's only here because he was an easy clone to make in the Melee era.

is... technically consistent, yes, but not anymore than a Goomba or a Koopa is.

So really, the only "consistent" pick since Brawl was - who arguably has a decently big role as a side villain. The rest are pretty much supporting cast members who became popular because of spinoffs. Impa and Tingle alone, for example, have more appearances in mainline Zelda games than Daisy and Rosalina have in mainline Mario games combined. And the latter is even the star of his own two spinoff games.

I wanna be clear about this - I'm not bashing on these characters (hell, I've said here before that Rosalina is one of my favorite Mario characters), but I think that this whole "consistency" argument doesn't make any sense. The only way you could say that comparing both series is not fair is because Zelda has less spinoffs to speak of - that's about it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't know if people would want to spend money on a clone.

: People paid money for us right?
: Yeah. A lot of people too.
: Do I count?
: No.

 

[Faso115]

If Rosalina's excuse is spin-offs then it's clear what we have to do.

Zelda Party and Zelda Kart! Otherwise we will always be stuck with the recurring cast!

 

[SharkLord]

: No.

I read this in the Hotel Mario voice and I hate it so much

 

[RileyXY1]

: People paid money for us right?
: Yeah. A lot of people too.
: Do I count?
: No.

All veterans. Different rules.

 

[Schnee117]

****, one of the ways you could unlock Rosalina in Mario Kart Wii was just by having save data for Galaxy 1.

I agree, but to be fair, Sakurai planned on including Rosalina back in early 2012, long before 3D World got announced with Rosie in it. So it's kinda questionable how much that game played into her inclusion.

Sure but I bring up 3d World because it further dispels the narrative that Rosalina was a one time side character before Smash 4 and that narrative is already, as you mentioned, ignoring her bit part in Galaxy 2 which is kinda funny when the people pushing it are saying others are making arbitrary exceptions.

True, she's not a one-off, but she is one of those characters that they use for a bit, and then drop into the abyss. I think comparing her to one-offs does make some sense.

There's a sizeable difference to being a one timer who's only other appearance was in a spin-off made years down the line and a character who still got further mainline roles whilst simultaneously getting a consistent stream of spin-off roles before being relegated squarely to said steady stream of spin-offs.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Personally, I feel like they're off the table when we're like five games in and there has yet to be a character in the position of someone like Ghirahim, a one-off secondary character that can't be made into an easy clone.

Maybe? But that’s the same argument as “They aren’t in by now, they’re irrelevant”. But sure, let’s look at the Zelda roster throughout the years

Smash 64: Link got in. Well, yeah, the only series to double dip was using clones to do so. Not a surprise Zelda isn’t there.
Melee: We get three one-off characters. Yes, yes, asterisks galore with the attack of the clones, but Melee’s roster was pretty hefty on them. Despite an apparent distaste for one-offs, we got Sheik, Young Link and Ganondorf with designs exclusive to one game.
Brawl: Toon Link is added, based on his Wind Waker persona. Midna could’ve been added, but in the same game that Wario, Dedede and Diddy were newcomers, space for niche was rare. And even then, out of these spots, a one-off design for Toon Link was chosen.
Smash 4: Finally, out of “five games”, the first true opportunity for a new character that was a one-off. I don’t think Ghirahim not making it is an omen for anything. Is it more unlikely now? Yes, I think it’s a factor that makes it hard for one to get the timing down right.
Ultimate: This is the big one, since they could’ve added Skull Kid and didn’t despite demand. I still don’t believe in any hard rules and terms like “off the table”, but in terms of diminishing liklehood, this factor seems to apply. Still, Skull Kid not making it in Ultimate is more like K. Rool not making it in Smash 4 than proof of a hard rule, especially since the predecessors have been pelting the rule with asterisks and apparent exceptions, like the combo of third party Echoes into Sepiroth.

(Rosalina technically appeared in Galaxy 2 by 2012, even if her role was smaller)

Technically she didn’t, Cosmic Spirit is a different entity. Also, most Zelda characters returned in Hyrule Warriors. And Mario Kart Wii was a dirty, scum-of-the-earth spin-off that could never amount to anything.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

All veterans. Different rules.

Oh so it's a rule now?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If Rosalina's excuse is spin-offs then it's clear what we have to do.

Zelda Party and Zelda Kart! Otherwise we will always be stuck with the recurring cast!

Can't wait to see Zelda cheerfully wave after getting first place after hitting Ganondorf with whatever the hell a Blue Shell is while he angrily mutters "First her kin slaughters my entire race and now she denies me victory in this race, can't have **** in Hyrule"

 

[RileyXY1]

Oh so it's a rule now?

Veterans go by different rules because they were already playable in Smash in the past.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Are we really discussing the value of spin-offs in 2021? This social experiment really failed.

 

[PeridotGX]

: People paid money for us right?
: Yeah. A lot of people too.
: Do I count?
: No.

mewtwo is one of the most blatant clones in the game, right next to snake and dark pit.

 

[ahemtoday]

Zork is a text based adventure series correct? How could a character from that genre translate into Smash?

Well, the player character of the original Zork trilogy - simply an "adventurer" - is armed with "an Elvish sword of great antiquity" and "a brass, battery-powered lantern". So I guess they'd be a swordie, huh...

However, it's because they're such a blank slate that that gives us room to really represent their genre (in the same way that Hero has you playing as Dragon Quest, basically). I saw people talking, before Banjo's gameplay reveal, about the stage being scattered with items to collect, but Banjo and Kazooie had enough they could do that that didn't feel necessary. However, with this... guy(?), you could go wild.

Let's start with their appearance. The defining nature of a text-based game is that the stuff in it doesn't really have an appearance. You could, like, make them out of text, for one thing. Not in the sense of ASCII art, because we need to save that for the Wizard of Yendor, but as in their textures are literal textures made of sentences describing them.

Gameplay-wise, it's funny I mention that speculative Banjo gimmick, because I imagine you could have a Zork character based on collecting special items you find and using them to solve puzzles. The puzzle in this case being "how am I gonna knock Sephiroth off the screen with this key, ring, and staff"?

The final smash is, of course, the Grue, where the lights go off and a helpful text box informs your opponents that it is pitch black, and they are likely to be eaten by a grue. And then the grue eats them, never depicted even using the graphical style of everything else.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

And even then, out of these spots, a one-off design for Toon Link was chosen

Actually that design was used quite a bit. The emphasis was placed on The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, but the design has also appeared in The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures (origin of the design), The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap, The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks, and The Legend of Zelda: Tri-Force Heroes.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

So... exactly what I said last night?

Yes?

I just popped in so sorry I wasn't caught up?

Ultimate: This is the big one, since they could’ve added Skull Kid and didn’t despite demand. I still don’t believe in any hard rules and terms like “off the table”, but in terms of diminishing liklehood, this factor seems to apply. Still, Skull Kid not making it in Ultimate is more like K. Rool not making it in Smash 4 than proof of a hard rule, especially since the predecessors have been pelting the rule with asterisks and apparent exceptions, like the combo of third party Echoes into Sepiroth.

I agree with your post except for this point.

The thing about Skull Kid is that he only started getting significant demand after loz18 "leaked" him as a playable fighter after K. Rool was revealed, and said demand tanked when he got confirmed as an assist trophy and has never recovered.

Skull Kid isn't comparable to K. Rool in the slightest.