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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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SMAASH! Puppy

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Probably I guess. You could say though that their comback mechanics are hugely different though whereas a time move doesn’t really have many ways to be utilised without being broken.

Kazuya as an example barely has a comback mechanic if I remember remember rightly. He has it for one move where he does extra damage for his grab or something along the lines of that and that’s it.

Terry gets extra moves and does more damage

And then joker gets an extra move

They’re all massively different.
Kazuya gets a damage multiplier while he has Rage, but I don't think Terry does when he gets GO!

The fact that the nuances are all different also proves his point; as long as they're not the same, they can still be released near each other without it being weird.
 
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SharkLord

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Pirate lore alone is the funniest part of the Metroid series which isn't just because the series doesn't usually joke, trying to replicate Morph Ball technology only to break 4 spines, needing to remind fellow pirates that Metroids aren't pets and executing fellow pirates for not being evil enough is hilarious
"Metroids are not pets. Metroids are not target practice."

How the hell did these guys get anything done before Ridley and Mother Brain came along?
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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I don't really have a problem with the actual moveset's design so much as the fact that the primary angle was keeping the "sword bad" crowd happy (which I'm pretty sure was a failure anyway).
Oh, it was.

Byleth is the most hated addition by the vocal fanbase, so ironically, Byleth made the "sword bad" crowd worse.

Probably I guess. You could say though that their comback mechanics are hugely different though whereas a time move doesn’t really have many ways to be utilised without being broken.

Kazuya as an example barely has a comback mechanic if I remember remember rightly. He has it for one move where he does extra damage for his grab or something along the lines of that and that’s it.

Terry gets extra moves and does more damage

And then joker gets an extra move

They’re all massively different.
Joker gets a complete redesign where one move completely changes (Up B) and all the others are enhanced. He's the only one with a unique special designed to charge it faster too.

Kazuya gets a damage boost on all of his attacks on top of the exclusive Rage Drive. He's the only one who gets it once per stock too.

Terry doesn't get more damage, but the extra moves is true.

Sephiroth becomes a boss character by having armored smashes and a third jump.

Yes, they're all massively different, but they're still comeback mechanics, which was my point; two mechanics with a similar concept but different executions can be released not too far apart from each other without it feeling like it's just copy-pasting.

whereas a time move doesn’t really have many ways to be utilised without being broken.
When you think about it, how Divine Pulse could have been translated into Smash is essentially a warp where you choose your destination based on previous actions, so it could've been a two-step special where you first put a beacon and the second part is you warping to that beacon, eplicating the feeling of "going back to a previous turn" the mechanic has in Three Houses.

A character like Tracer could have a different take on it by always reversing by a select amount of time every time.

There are nuances to a time warp mechanic too.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Sephiroth becomes a boss character by having armored smashes and a third jump.
I think the mechanic also alludes to multi-form bosses/bosses with a desperation state as well.

Hmm...This makes me wonder how crazy a newer boss character from the Kirby series could get. I know Meta Knight and King Dedede have both been bosses, but they didn't originally have a desperation state or multiple forms. Most, if not all Kirby bosses have them nowadays though, and they can get pretty crazy.
 

WeirdChillFever

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I think the mechanic also alludes to multi-form bosses/bosses with a desperation state as well.

Hmm...This makes me wonder how crazy a newer boss character from the Kirby series could get. I know Meta Knight and King Dedede have both been bosses, but they didn't originally have a desperation state or multiple forms. Most, if not all Kirby bosses have them nowadays though, and they can get pretty crazy.
Character where the Up B (Of course make sure that the recovery is decent enough without it) ditches their corporeal form for the rest of the stock and they gain a lighter but terrifyingly powerful Soul form.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Character where the Up B (Of course make sure that the recovery is decent enough without it) ditches their corporeal form for the rest of the stock and they gain a lighter but terrifyingly powerful Soul form.
Opponent: "Did you just...die?"
Kirby Boss: "Sadly, yes...but I lived!" proceeds to fill the screen with hitboxes
 

SharkLord

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Character where the Up B (Of course make sure that the recovery is decent enough without it) ditches their corporeal form for the rest of the stock and they gain a lighter but terrifyingly powerful Soul form.
To be fair, the "Soul" forms seem to be less of an actual soul and more like a zombified state, with the exception of Void Soul. In addition, only Marx and Void Termina would really work well with a Soul form, as the other Soul bosses have a much different base form that would require a completely different moveset as a result.

But yeah, for Marx I suppose you could give him a down special or shield special (Or just do the standard 100% activation) where he takes massive damage and becomes the much stronger Marx Soul as a result.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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I think the mechanic also alludes to multi-form bosses/bosses with a desperation state as well.
Which is fitting because that's exactly what Sephiroth is.

Hmm...This makes me wonder how crazy a newer boss character from the Kirby series could get. I know Meta Knight and King Dedede have both been bosses, but they didn't originally have a desperation state or multiple forms. Most, if not all Kirby bosses have them nowadays though, and they can get pretty crazy.
Magolor could potentially be insane.
 

SKX31

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Kazuya gets a damage multiplier while he has Rage, but I don't think Terry does when he gets GO!

The fact that the nuances are all different also proves his point; as long as they're not the same, they can still be released near each other without it being weird.
Terry doesn't, but that's partly because he can directly confirm into the super moves*: Up Tilt (or Dodge Attack) -> Power Geyser, or N-Air -> F-Tilt -> Buster Wolf. That and his jabs / tilts are quick - GO enhances his "oops-you-hit-a-button-in-neutral-here's-45-%" nature.

Kazuya's Rage multiplier is 1.1X. While Kazuya also has the ability to confirm into his Rage Drive because his moves normally have absurd amounts of stun (especially EWGF), Rage is not - hypotheoretically - permanent unlike GO. The multiplier's probably there to compensate for the more temporary nature. While both GO moves and the Rage Drive carry significant risk when used as a call out, it's arguably riskier for Kazuya since he risks losing Rage with whiffed grabs (a maximum of 6 whiffed grabs, and / or 30-40 % as a rule of thumb).

While Arsene is timed to max 30 secs and can be depleted quicker than that, Arsene practically buffs every single move and gives Joker one of the safest counters out there. So yeah, there's that.

*(See here.)
I don't want to imagine how much damage Terry and Kazuya would deal if they had :ultsephiroth: 's 1.3X damage multiplier and other stat boosts that comes with OWA.

I think the mechanic also alludes to multi-form bosses/bosses with a desperation state as well.

Hmm...This makes me wonder how crazy a newer boss character from the Kirby series could get. I know Meta Knight and King Dedede have both been bosses, but they didn't originally have a desperation state or multiple forms. Most, if not all Kirby bosses have them nowadays though, and they can get pretty crazy.
To be fair, the "Soul" forms seem to be less of an actual soul and more like a zombified state, with the exception of Void Soul. In addition, only Marx and Void Termina would really work well with a Soul form, as the other Soul bosses have a much different base form that would require a completely different moveset as a result.

But yeah, for Marx I suppose you could give him a down special or shield special (Or just do the standard 100% activation) where he takes massive damage and becomes the much stronger Marx Soul as a result.
Given past experience (:ultcloud:, :ultwiifittrainer: and :ultsephiroth: ) they can get pretty damn crazy. Now there are some differences between them (for example, Cloud doesn't gain a damage boost but that's compensated for by the Limit moves and the speed buff) but the main point's still the same: the buffs already in the game can be pretty damn wild, so there's groundwork for a crazy boost.

That said, it would be quite refreshing IMHO if the activation wasn't just "take enough damage". I'm not sure which other method would work for a Kirby boss specifically though given that that's how they reach their second form / "Soul" form usually. Maybe something like dealing damage mainly to spice things up a bit or staying alive for long enough?
 
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subterrestrial

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there's still no character on the roster with a healing OR invisibility mechanic. or reversing controls, or portals, or ai summons or duplication. Or even a wall climb, the closest thing we have is wall jumps and wall clings but its not a true shimmy

I just hope the next char's dlc gimmick is something that hasn't been done before
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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To be fair, the "Soul" forms seem to be less of an actual soul and more like a zombified state, with the exception of Void Soul. In addition, only Marx and Void Termina would really work well with a Soul form, as the other Soul bosses have a much different base form that would require a completely different moveset as a result.

But yeah, for Marx I suppose you could give him a down special or shield special (Or just do the standard 100% activation) where he takes massive damage and becomes the much stronger Marx Soul as a result.
I'm not ultimately familiar with his original appearance (or the lore behind it), but the Kirby series seems to treat Marx Soul as an extension of his original abilities, with his soul form coming out just by "double jumping". Marx himself wasn't a multi-phase boss either IIRC.

Hmm. So we've got:
  • Nightmare, who is technically a two phase fight, but phase 1 is just a ball.
  • Dark Matter, who I don't think has ever had a soul form, but does have like, ten million forms, so it could possibly play around with those.
    • They are really different and quite a few of them are just eyes, so I dunno in what way.
  • Marx, who isn't really a multi-phase boss IIRC.
  • Daroach is a single phase fight as well I think.
  • Magolor's phases are pretty different, and both phases are different than his normal form.
  • Queen Sectonia's second phase is immobile, but her third phase isn't.
    • It is, however, so far removed from Sectonia that it almost qualifies as a separate character, even visually.
  • Suzie and Haltmann's desperation modes just play with the arena IIRC.
  • Stardream and Stardream Soul OS are both pretty weird choices in general.
  • Hyness is perfect actually. His desperation mode just takes off his hood and give him new moves, but they are different enough to get the crazy going.
    • RIP the Three Mage Sisters though.
  • Void Termina is technically a multi-phase boss, but I dunno how you'd implement phase 1.
there's still no character on the roster with a healing OR invisibility mechanic. or reversing controls, or portals, or ai summons or duplication.
Well, Wii Fit Trainer and Hero can both heal themselves, albeit very minorly, and moves that flip opponents do seem to reverse left and right for a split second as well so you don't just turn back around.
 

PeridotGX

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Smash ain't the only thing getting cloned it seems. Steam making a Switch variant.
I hope this does well. Competition is good for the industry, if this thing takes off Nintendo might have to step it up a bit. I'm not optimistic on it's success, though. Nintendo has never truly been rivaled in the handheld sphere, and that controller looks like... that.
 

CapitaineCrash

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there's still no character on the roster with a healing OR invisibility mechanic. or reversing controls, or portals, or ai summons or duplication. Or even a wall climb, the closest thing we have is wall jumps and wall clings but its not a true shimmy

I just hope the next char's dlc gimmick is something that hasn't been done before
I would like a summoner, I think this is a cool gimmick that is surprisingly untouched. My wish would have been Andy and he could summon tanks and infantry but I really don't think he would be the final dlc but maybe in the next Smash. Not sure who else could have a similar mechanic.
 
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SharkLord

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I'm not ultimately familiar with his original appearance (or the lore behind it), but the Kirby series seems to treat Marx Soul as an extension of his original abilities, with his soul form coming out just by "double jumping". Marx himself wasn't a multi-phase boss either IIRC.

Hmm. So we've got:
  • Nightmare, who is technically a two phase fight, but phase 1 is just a ball.
  • Dark Matter, who I don't think has ever had a soul form, but does have like, ten million forms, so it could possibly play around with those.
    • They are really different and quite a few of them are just eyes, so I dunno in what way.
  • Marx, who isn't really a multi-phase boss IIRC.
  • Daroach is a single phase fight as well I think.
  • Magolor's phases are pretty different, and both phases are different than his normal form.
  • Queen Sectonia's second phase is immobile, but her third phase isn't.
    • It is, however, so far removed from Sectonia that it almost qualifies as a separate character, even visually.
  • Suzie and Haltmann's desperation modes just play with the arena IIRC.
  • Stardream and Stardream Soul OS are both pretty weird choices in general.
  • Hyness is perfect actually. His desperation mode just takes off his hood and give him new moves, but they are different enough to get the crazy going.
    • RIP the Three Mage Sisters though.
  • Void Termina is technically a multi-phase boss, but I dunno how you'd implement phase 1.

Well, Wii Fit Trainer and Hero can both heal themselves, albeit very minorly, and moves that flip opponents do seem to reverse left and right for a split second as well so you don't just turn back around.
Technically speaking, Sectonia's third phase is just phase two for her Soul form. Assuming we count all the Sectonia's together, Daroach is technically a two-phase boss as well; While there's two entire worlds between them, he gets possessed and turned into Dark Daroach. Granted, it's more or less just a harder Daroach, but it's still a second Daroach fight. It should also be noted that the double jump form that Marx takes is just his standard boss form; He had a tiny form before that that was never fought.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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...Daroach is technically a two-phase boss as well; While there's two entire worlds between them, he gets possessed and turned into Dark Daroach. Granted, it's more or less just a harder Daroach, but it's still a second Daroach fight.
I'm not an expert on Kirby: Squeak Squad either so I didn't remember if you fought Daroach before the final boss fights. Thanks for clarifying.
 
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SNEKeater

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Guilty Gear Strive has already sold 500k (which I think it's already more than GG Xrd). They will announce the first DLC fighter soon. Definitely the biggest release of the series. Next step: Sol Badguy in Smash 6 :4pacman:

Thanks to this new art we also know Sol likes to play with a classic controller while Ky is more classic and prefers using arcade sticks.
 
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Gengar84

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Okay so we don’t have a clue who the next character will be so instead of speculating who it might be, let’s think of characters who have gimmicks or movesets that aren’t represented in smash yet and list them so we could potentially get some idea of who the last character could be.

Basically every character in the pass so far has brought in a gimmick that is completely unique to smash. From this we know the last character will bring something that’s not already done in smash yet so the rules are

If the character performs a gimmick that’s pretty much represented in smash bro’s then they don’t count.

If they perform a few moves that are similar to character move sets from dlc then they don’t count. Now that the rules are down. Let’s think off unique gimmicks or moves this potential last character could be bringing.
I really like the idea of Sarah Kerrigan as a summoner type fighter who summons Zerg units to aid her in combat. This can be done by using a meter that gradually fills that represents the resources like Vespian Gas that you use to summon buildings and units in StarCraft.
 

subterrestrial

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Well, Wii Fit Trainer and Hero can both heal themselves, albeit very minorly, and moves that flip opponents do seem to reverse left and right for a split second as well so you don't just turn back around.
true I just wish the healing was more prominent. like let me play as chef kawasaki and cook a meal to eat mid match

kat with gravity abilities could be rly unique too
 

Gengar84

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true I just wish the healing was more prominent. like let me play as chef kawasaki and cook a meal to eat mid match

kat with gravity abilities could be rly unique too
I think my main concern is if the healing move is too good, it might end up making the character overpowered. I’d love to see Princess Garnet from Final Fantasy IX as both a healer and a summoner personally.
 

Idon

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This talk of characters with healing abilities has me flashing back to USF4 Elena.

Frankly I don’t think that sounds very fun to fight.
Agreed.

There are unique mechanics and there are fun mechanics.

This community should take care to not conflate the two.
 

Gengar84

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Here’s a cool idea in theory that would ultimately lead to annoying gameplay in practice. I don’t know how many of you have ever played Soul Reaver on the PS1, but the main character, a vampire named Raziel, constantly loses health but he gains it back by attacking enemies. Unfortunately, in Smash, this would likely result in Raziel’s opponent running away the whole match so you end up killing yourself.
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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How long would matches last if, say, Sora had Curaga that healed 100% damage, but it could only be used once per stock and took some startup to use?
He could use it after KOing someone, possibly, so it's almost like he's stealing a stock every time he takes one.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Here’s a cool idea in theory that would ultimately lead to annoying gameplay in practice. I don’t know how many of you have ever played Soul Reaver on the PS1, but the main character, a vampire named Raziel, constantly loses health but he gains it back by attacking enemies. Unfortunately, in Smash, this would likely result in Raziel’s opponent running away the whole match so you end up killing yourself.
Eh, it'd probably be buisness as usual, except the character with the mechanic would be ridiculously aggressive, likely to the point where characters that struggle against aggression just straight up lose.

How long would matches last if, say, Sora had Curaga that healed 100% damage, but it could only be used once per stock and took some startup to use?
He could use it after KOing someone, possibly, so it's almost like he's stealing a stock every time he takes one.
Yeah he would effectively have 5 stocks instead of 3 depending on how the matches went.
 

Gengar84

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How long would matches last if, say, Sora had Curaga that healed 100% damage, but it could only be used once per stock and took some startup to use?
I think a healing spell shouldn’t ever heal more than 10% and even then, should have a fairly lengthy cool down so you can’t spam it over and over. 100% is way too much.
 

Ramen Tengoku

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One of Master Mummy's key abilities in ARMS was healing while shielding, so I wonder what the alt universe where he was the rep looks like

Of course the way shields quickly decrease in Smash wouldn't have made things too insane, but still.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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I made it 100% because it's meant to be a spell used in a pinch (again, since it's one use per stock).
100% is kill percents, so this is way too much of a life saver.

25% could work tho because it's not as huge of a game changer but still a high enough amount to be incredibly valuable. Maybe 30 depending on his weight.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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If a character were to have a move that just heals, I'd imagine it would need to pull from some sort of resource that builds really slowly, and has multiple uses. You might also get away with a healing field that anyone can take advantage of, though it would have to be something that wouldn't be up all the time lest the match become a game of king of the hill.

One of Master Mummy's key abilities in ARMS was healing while shielding, so I wonder what the alt universe where he was the rep looks like

Of course the way shields quickly decrease in Smash wouldn't have made things too insane, but still.
It's a fairly minor heal effect as well; just enough for more casual players to go "blocking good" and then get grabbed. lol

But yeah, in Super Smash Bros. it would probably be a minor annoyance at best since the guy would be gourmet combo food, and blocking a bunch gets him grabbed more, and makes his shield less effective.
 

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"Yoshi's Woolly World" released today in 2015 !! A work with an expression like handicraft. In Smash Bros., Yoshi's 8P The color is expressed like electrostatic flocking (flock processing), but this is an expression sent to the derivative work "Yoshi's Crafted World".
 

SneakyLink

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"Yoshi's Woolly World" released today in 2015 !! A work with an expression like handicraft. In Smash Bros., Yoshi's 8P The color is expressed like electrostatic flocking (flock processing), but this is an expression sent to the derivative work "Yoshi's Crafted World".
Oh yeah the Yoshi game that looked like a handcrafted world. Three things:
1. I need to beat Crafted World someday.
2. The NA release for this game was in October the same year as the other regions. Why? No idea.
3. I actually wish the Woolly World stage would have come back. It's the only stage I am baffled by its exclusion.
 

FreeFox

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Did I miss the talk about gimmick for characters?

I have a few on my own:
-Isaac could have a djinn collecting mechanic changing his moveset.
-King Boo: Intangiability/ Using boos to slow down opponents or make them lighter
-Phoenix Wright: Collecting evidence making his attacks stronger. (like the more evidence he has, the stronger he gets)
-Waluigi could use items from the Mario Party series to debuff opponents/buff himself
 
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