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Then you have another problem: With only one slot left, upgrading an AT would only cause vitriol between people who wanted their favorite AT promoted and people who wanted to see a brand new franchise altogether, right?
Let's say Waluigi got promoted. What about the Isaac fans? People who wanted Alucard over the Belmonts or Spring Man over Min Min? Lyn, Midna, Krystal, Shadow, Shovel Knight, Bomberman, Zero, Knuckles, Takamaru, Sukapon, Skull Kid, all of these characters have big fanbases all across the world who feel they should be the one to get the "real fighter" treatment. Not to mention the overwhelming amount of people who wanted to see something brand new brought into Smash. You thought Byleth had a negative reaction, I promise any AT promotion as the final DLC in Smash Ultimate would be 100 times worse.
...Isn't that just Smash in general? We can't have everybody. What about people who wanted Jack Frost or Demi-Fiend over Joker? Those who wanted one of the House leaders over Byleth? Or if we're going for companies and just series, how about everyone who wanted a Tales rep over a Tekken one? Or fans of Kyo, Iori, Athena, Nakoruru, etc. over Terry?
Perhaps Nintendo and/or Sakurai feel a Trophy is enough, I'll admit that's possible. But trying to pull the "But what about everyone else" card is meaningless, because regardless, someone's most-wanted is gonna get taken out of the running - Or, more accurately, almost everyone, seeing as we're on the last fighter anyways.
I just don't see the reasoning there. There's always someone happy and someone disappointed. If we're worried about people feeling left out, we might as well just end the franchise entirely. There's always someone who ends up outprioritized and left out; Why are ATs any different?
As someone who fears the final character being more hated than Byleth, I don't think they'll be THAT hated unless the AT is from FE. Sure there'll be some ******** that CP11 wasn't Crash but you should've expected someone less iconic than him to be CP11 in the first place.
That brings the question:
Would he execute 2 potential red herrings in a row? We don't know for sure, but the Heihachi costume COULD'VE been a red herring trying to cover up Kazuya.
the only two that have were characters Sakurai would've added to the base game if the timing worked better, as well as both being first party. It's happened, but it seems to be more of the exception than the rule
To be honest, when speculating for FP11, my overall impression is that Nintendo probably wants to end on at least a decent note and not equivalent to the reception Byleth ultimately got. At bare minimum, I'm expecting a character of some note with history behind him and not a promotional character for a recent game like Shin Megami Tensei 5. Characters like Phoenix Wright and Rayman would fall into this category. Though, Master Chief is still technically possible because of Microsoft and Nintendo's rather strong partnership over the past few years
Part of me wishes that Nintendo ends Ultimate in an "ultimate" way and brings in an absolute banger of a fighter. Only a few can do this imo.
The other part of me remembers that Byleth was CP5, and thus, I remain hyping up responsibly.
If we were to get an assist promotion. We would have gotten it with Bomberman. Closest we'll ever get to "assist promotions". Assist characters being promoted to deluxe miis.
If we were to get an assist promotion. We would have gotten it with Bomberman. Closest we'll ever get to "assist promotions". Assist characters being deluxe miis.
I heard someone speculating the 6th slot could of have been last-minute given the few seconds it took for CP11 slot to appear after the others upon being announced and perhaps Resident Evil was planned for Base game or the first pass but given Pass 2 being developed which wasn't going to happen at first were finally able to add Resident Evil rep to the pass.
That brings the question:
Would he execute 2 potential red herrings in a row? We don't know for sure, but the Heihachi costume COULD'VE been a red herring trying to cover up Kazuya.
Let me preface this by saying that this is only my opinion and I'm not trying to gatekeep or whatever. Obviously fan rules are silly and aside from one rule specified by Sakurai himself (character must be from a video game), there's nothing 100% concrete in speculation.
Okay, all that being said, I think we've all been talking about "AT promotions" all wrong. We're looking at it from the perspective of jaded, mostly-western gamers, many of which prefer playing Smash with tournament-legal rulesets. Not all of us think of the game this way, but statistically, most of us do. We look at ATs the same way we look at Mii costumes: a death sentence for a character (which, c'mon guys, they're not). We think, "If Nintendo really wanted to bring Waluigi into Smash, they'd make him a real fighter!"
We aren't at all looking at ATs the same way Sakurai, Sora Ltd, and Nintendo are. The amount of time, consideration, and even licensing involved in bringing ATs to life is quite a bit more than I think a lot of us assume. They got entire segments dedicated to them in Smash Directs. Sakurai and his team seem proud of their work with them (as they should be!). They don't see ATs as a waste whatsoever.
Honestly, I can't imagine Sakurai or Nintendo wanting to take a character that they already consider in the game and make them playable. Sure, it's completely possible that they could, but from a business and personal standpoint, why would they want to?
Then you have another problem: With only one slot left, upgrading an AT would only cause vitriol between people who wanted their favorite AT promoted and people who wanted to see a brand new franchise altogether, right?
Let's say Waluigi got promoted. What about the Isaac fans? People who wanted Alucard over the Belmonts or Spring Man over Min Min? Lyn, Midna, Krystal, Shadow, Shovel Knight, Bomberman, Zero, Knuckles, Takamaru, Sukapon, Skull Kid, all of these characters have big fanbases all across the world who feel they should be the one to get the "real fighter" treatment. Not to mention the overwhelming amount of people who wanted to see something brand new brought into Smash. You thought Byleth had a negative reaction, I promise any AT promotion as the final DLC in Smash Ultimate would be 100 times worse.
Again, they could do it, but they'd be really dumb to. It would be an absolutely disastrous way for Nintendo to wrap up one of their biggest titles and what Sakurai considers his "life's work", as well as the most legendary crossover in video game history.
...which I guess means it'll definitely happen, because Nintendo
100x worse hate than Byleth is kinda pushing it, but yeah; the hate in this case might be bigger than people realize. Not just for fans of other AT characters besides Waluigi (or, hell, even Spring Man), but also (dare I say) especially for non AT’s, especially from series that has no content in Smash whatsoever.
I can take not getting Crash or Sora (two of my MW’s), but my reaction to an AT being the last slot is a whole other can of worms.
Another reason why I ain't seeing an assist promotion which would had happened earlier and the fact we did get a "promotion" through Bomberman as a mii shows this being the closest we'll get to it.
If we were to get an assist promotion. We would have gotten it with Bomberman. Closest we'll ever get to "assist promotions". Assist characters being promoted to deluxe miis.
...I don't really see the connection. That Bomberman is inherently higher on the checklist? That Deluxe Miis mean we can't get promotions because they're "close enough?"
There's always someone happy and someone disappointed. If we're worried about people feeling left out, we might as well just end the franchise entirely. There's always someone who ends up outprioritized and left out; Why are ATs any different?
Hell, let's say CP11 did turn out to be MC or Dante by some miracle. Won't there still be platformer fans conplaining that no one in FP2 was from a platformer? And if it's Dante, won't some people still complain about the lack of an FPS rep? Face it, complaints are inevitable, and you can't use "but people will complain!" as proof that someone's deconfirmed, especially for the last character. Might as well use it as proof we won't get a Gen 8 Pokemon.
...I don't really see the connection. That Bomberman is inherently higher on the checklist? That Deluxe Miis mean we can't get promotions because they're "close enough?"
The fact they "promoted" Bomberman as an mii shows if they had wanted to they could have just promoted him as a full fighter ruling assist promotions out.
The fact too there's already plenty of characters let alone not represented in Ultimate that would be chosen for before they go with an assist, a character already in a game in some form.
"But spir-"
There's a difference between what is a JPG image as oppose to a what is already a character represented in some form.
I've always thought there was a good possibility of Byleth and Steve being swapped. The timing of Steve's reveal for how big a character he is always threw me off and Byleth's reveal fits much better in a typical direct
I feel like at least some fans of any specific genre would go "We're still missing big name characters from our genre!"
Platformer fans would say this concerning characters like Crash, Rayman, and Sackboy.
JRPG fans would say this concerning characters like Sora, Lloyd, and a Monster Hunter.
FPS fans would say this concerning characters like Doomslayer, Gordon Freeman, and Master Chief.
No sign of full acceptance with a specific genre's representation anywhere. Can't get them all, but whoever Nintendo gets, they get.
Hell, let's say CP11 did turn out to be MC or Dante by some miracle. Won't there still be platformer fans conplaining that no one in FP2 was from a platformer? And if it's Dante, won't some people still complain about the lack of an FPS rep? Face it, complaints are inevitable, and you can't use "but people will complain!" as proof that someone's deconfirmed, especially for the last character. Might as well use it as proof we won't get a Gen 8 Pokemon.
Obviously there will be complaints, but what we really mean when we talk about a ''good reception'' is if the positive reactions heavily outweigh the bad ones which is what matters.
Edit: Not that I'm taking sides, just a brief explanation of what it could've meant
The fact they "promoted" Bomberman as an mii shows if they had wanted to they could have just promoted him as a full fighter ruling assist promotions out.
The fact too there's already plenty of characters let alone not represented in Ultimate that would be chosen for before they go with an assist.
Or maybe he was just... Not a fighter? There's like a hundred different options and only six slots; Someone's getting left out eventually.
And either way, just because they made him a Mii doesn't mean they could've "just made him a fighter." A Mii Costume is more or less a quick model port with a couple changes to fit the Mii's frame better. If they wanted a Bomberman Challenger's Pack, they'd also have to design an original moveset, a stage to go with it, and nab a handful of songs and Spirits to round out the overall pack. It's not just a simple "I don't feel like (X), let's do (Y) instead."
And to be perfectly honest, the "They'd go for (X) before (Y)" mindset is just shallow. We can't pretend to know what Nintendo wants or how they choose the fighters. We can't say for certain who they would choose first, or if they even have any sort of set priority at all. That bit of reasoning is equivalent to plugging your ears and just ignoring any other options because you don't want to consider them.
And to be perfectly honest, the "They'd go for (X) before (Y)" mindset is just shallow. We can't pretend to know what Nintendo wants or how they choose the fighters. We can't say for certain who they would choose first, or if they even have any sort of set priority at all. That bit of reasoning is equivalent to plugging your ears and just ignoring any other options because you don't want to consider them.
I feel like at least some fans of any specific genre would go "We're still missing big name characters from our genre!"
Platformer fans would say this concerning characters like Crash, Rayman, and Sackboy.
JRPG fans would say this concerning characters like Sora, Lloyd, and a Monster Hunter.
FPS fans would say this concerning characters like Doomslayer, Gordon Freeman, and Master Chief.
No sign of full acceptance with a specific genre's representation anywhere. Can't get them all, but whoever Nintendo gets, they get.
I mean, that'll be bound to happen. Hell, there's still plenty of iconic fighting game characters or franchises to represent. GG, Darkstalkers, MK, KI, SC, ect. That's not even getting to specific fighters like Chun-Li.
That said, hyping up Sackboy over Ratchet and Clank feels like crackhead vibes to me. I would argue most of the major platformer franchises are in to some degree, but I'll gladly shill for Mega Man X or Zero or Protoman or Vile.
But otherwise, really only the Sony associated series, Strider and Contra are missing off the top of my head, as far as "major" series goes. Rayman's a Spirit. Sonic has 1 character, Mega Man has 1 character, Shovel Knight's an AT, Castlevania's got 2 characters, Mario, Kirby, DK, Metroid and Wario are 1st party, Shantae's not exactly major but still represented, Metal Slug has music, Ghost N'Goblin's has a Mii Costume and Spirit. Goemon's a Mii Costume. And Ninja Gaiden switched its genre.
I heard someone speculating the 6th slot could of have been last-minute given the few seconds it took for CP11 slot to appear after the others upon being announced and perhaps Resident Evil was planned for Base game or the first pass but given Pass 2 being developed which wasn't going to happen at first were finally able to add Resident Evil rep to the pass.
To be honest, when speculating for FP11, my overall impression is that Nintendo probably wants to end on at least a decent note and not equivalent to the reception Byleth ultimately got. At bare minimum, I'm expecting a character of some note with history behind him and not a promotional character for a recent game like Shin Megami Tensei 5. Characters like Phoenix Wright and Rayman would fall into this category. Though, Master Chief is still technically possible because of Microsoft and Nintendo's rather strong partnership over the past few years
I dont know. They have ended almost every last smash reveal on a pretty mixed and "meh" kind of note. That is why I am trying to be careful not to get too hyped for the whole thing. Yeah, this might be the exception to the rule but for the most part, smash has made a bad job giving one last "big hurrah!"
Does he have his merits? Yes, but there isn't really a straight tierlist of priority. Persona 5 was added before other, much older JRPGs like Monster Hunter, Tales, and Dragon Quest (Though the latter did get added later), which was the general pattern at the time. It's generally agreed that it's because Persona 5 was a recent smash hit, which made Nintendo go for it over any older series. On the flipside, Fatal Fury and it's successor, King of Fighters, isn't quite as big worldwide compared to contemporaries like Tekken (Though that also ended up added the following pass, admittedly), but it was added for it's stature in the arcade scene and it's legacy for Smash and fighters as a whole. Then there's Steve, who was added just for the sheer size of Minecraft. And then there's Min Min, Byleth, and Pyra, who were all from recent Switch releases.
In short, there isn't a "main" reason for being added. Sometimes it's recency, sometimes it's legacy, sometimes it's just sheer size. I'm not going to limit myself to thinking that if a pattern is broken, it has to be one specific character and nobody else.
...And either way, you haven't really given anything that really proves how big Bomberman is beyond your word, so it's kinda hard to judge it based on that alone
Perhaps Nintendo and/or Sakurai feel a Trophy is enough, I'll admit that's possible. But trying to pull the "But what about everyone else" card is meaningless, because regardless, someone's most-wanted is gonna get taken out of the running - Or, more accurately, almost everyone, seeing as we're on the last fighter anyways.
I just don't see the reasoning there. There's always someone happy and someone disappointed. If we're worried about people feeling left out, we might as well just end the franchise entirely. There's always someone who ends up outprioritized and left out; Why are ATs any different?
You're missing my point. They're already in the game.
Yes, people will be upset if their favorite third-party franchise/character isn't picked for the fighter's pass, but it's brand new content that Nintendo and Sakurai needed to decide on together and seamlessly bring into the game. It's a completely different type of disappointment if Dante doesn't get in but Phoenix Wright does because that 9 times out of 10 means that Sakurai and Nintendo decided on Phoenix without even really thinking about Dante.
With an AT promotion, it's Nintendo and Sakurai saying "Not only did we not bring in anyone new, but we also consciously decided against all of these other AT characters in favor of this one specific AT character."
No, these two decision processes wouldn't be the same. Again, these characters are already in Smash. If Nintendo or Sakurai really wanted them to be playable, they would've made them playable in base game.
And no, this is not a "Spring Man/Min Min" scenario because ARMS was released while Smash Ultimate's roster was being finalized. ARMS was brand new at the time. Waluigi? Isaac? Shadow? They had been established characters. Sakurai and Nintendo chose to not make them playable.
I want to stress that anything could happen. I just personally can't see an AT promotion being a business savvy choice. It would cause a ton of backlash and I'm positive Sakurai knows that. You're right, people feeling left out and "what about everyone else?" is the reality of Smash speculation. But Sakurai could completely avoid the enormous controversy of an AT promotion by just...not doing an AT promotion.
I'm re-reading all of this and it makes me sound extremely antagonistic and confrontational, and I hope you know that's not my intention at all haha. I really don't care that much, it's a speculation board about a video game roster. Just trying to explain why I personally find these two different types of "deconfirmations" feel so drastically different to me.
Amaterasu has definitely been my #1 for a long time. We need another quadruped and her stage/music would be so damn gorgeous to have in Smash.
All that being said...man, I wish we got Chun-Li along with Ken. Her absence is every bit as jarring as having Cloud and Sephiroth but Sonic without Eggman.
Unlike Mai Shiranui, Morrigan only just needs her cleavage to be covered and maybe her breast size reduced. Easy peasy. Look at the obscure Darkstalkers cartoon to get an idea how that can work.
Ain't like her legs are exposing her skin otherwise you'd have a point.
Also Monster Hunter is a mii. Heihachi can't be compared to Kazuya because they're both totally different characters.
He could've also avoided the potential controversy of Byleth by not doing Byleth. But we still got that smug look on his face and "Too many swordsmen, are there?"
It makes me wonder which are the top 5 capcom ips that could make it into smash? I would love to hear opinions on the subject.
I dont know. They have ended almost every last smash reveal on a pretty mixed and "meh" kind of note. That is why I am trying to be careful not to get too hyped for the whole thing. Yeah, this might be the exception to the rule but for the most part, smash has made a bad job giving one last "big hurrah!"
As far as NEW Capcom franchises not in any form currently. I'd consider, RE, MH, SF, MM and DMC to be the "main" Capcom franchises, either due to cash money or influence on gaming and culture and so on. Ghosts N' Goblins is also in to some extent. I think people are willing to put a little bit of stock into Morrigan since she's in a similar boat to Captain Falcon. Really popular in crossover games, but her own series ain't active.
Ace Attorney
Strider
Dead Rising
Viewtiful Joe
Darkstalkers Kinda sorta Final Fight.
That said, outside of that rule set.
Chun-Li
Akuma
Mike Haggar
Maybe another Mega Man character.
They double back on Resident Evil, similar to ARMS and more specifically Rex who was only cut for technical reasons with Pyra, not for being a Mii.
I kind of doubt they'd go right to Dante so quickly, even when taking Rex's case into account. And I don't think Nero or Vergil would be picked, but I wouldn't complain too much.
I want to stress that anything could happen. I just personally can't see an AT promotion being a business savvy choice. It would cause a ton of backlash and I'm positive Sakurai knows that. You're right, people feeling left out and "what about everyone else?" is the reality of Smash speculation. But Sakurai could completely avoid the enormous controversy of an AT promotion by just...not doing an AT promotion.
"Business savvy choice" followed up by "fan backlash".
I'm getting the strong feeling you have no idea what you're talking about at all. They've already got your money for pass 2. There's nothing "business savvy" to even do at this point, save for some random shill that was crammed in at the last possible moment.
There's already been "backlash" over Banjo and Steve being selected over Master Chief, and etc. If they were concerned about "fan backlash", they would not have planned to end smash 4 with corrin, ultimate with incineroar, or pass 1 with byleth. They simply do not care about how "hype" people feel at the end, because they aren't concerned about that, they're concerned about the money that everyone else prior brought.
As an aside, there's an unfounded notion that an assist trophy character would be chosen "because it's an assist trophy". And this is just unequivocally untrue. Neither Little Mac, Isabelle, nor Dark Samus even were mentioned about their ATs on their promotion. Little Mac was chosen because of western familiarity as well as Punch-Out's recent at the time success. Nothing to do with "oh let's pick an AT character".
If they were to add someone like Isaac, it would have nothing to do with him being an assist. It would be either because they had room and interest to add a Golden Sun representative, or because they wanted to add a ballot character and Isaac was the best fit. The assist trophy may affect the specific representative in the former case, which would lead to settling on Isaac for sure, but in the latter case it has no bearing whatsoever. The whole idea that "oh other assist fans would be disappointed" is frankly quite juvenile. If that would make you upset, then cry all you want. Nintendo isn't about to pander to you anyway.
You're missing my point. They're already in the game.
Yes, people will be upset if their favorite third-party franchise/character isn't picked for the fighter's pass, but it's brand new content that Nintendo and Sakurai needed to decide on together and seamlessly bring into the game. It's a completely different type of disappointment if Dante doesn't get in but Phoenix Wright does because that 9 times out of 10 means that Sakurai and Nintendo decided on Phoenix without even really thinking about Dante.
With an AT promotion, it's Nintendo and Sakurai saying "Not only did we not bring in anyone new, but we also consciously decided against all of these other AT characters in favor of this one specific AT character."
No, these two decision processes wouldn't be the same. Again, these characters are already in Smash. If Nintendo or Sakurai really wanted them to be playable, they would've made them playable in base game.
And no, this is not a "Spring Man/Min Min" scenario because ARMS was released while Smash Ultimate's roster was being finalized. ARMS was brand new at the time. Waluigi? Isaac? Shadow? They had been established characters. Sakurai and Nintendo chose to not make them playable.
I want to stress that anything could happen. I just personally can't see an AT promotion being a business savvy choice. It would cause a ton of backlash and I'm positive Sakurai knows that. You're right, people feeling left out and "what about everyone else?" is the reality of Smash speculation. But Sakurai could completely avoid the enormous controversy of an AT promotion by just...not doing an AT promotion.
I'm re-reading all of this and it makes me sound extremely antagonistic and confrontational, and I hope you know that's not my intention at all haha. I really don't care that much, it's a speculation board about a video game roster. Just trying to explain why I personally find these two different types of "deconfirmations" feel so drastically different to me.
I still don't see why it's any different. It's just choosing one option out of multiple. One gets chosen, the others are outprioritized. Why would they ignore Dante for Phoenix, but have to keep in mind every other AT when choosing one to be added? It wouldn't be because they're ATs, it would be because of their own merits.
Something worth noting is that while the previous Smash games, namely Brawl and 4, have upwards of 20 newcomers, while Ultimate only has about ten - And half of those are just moveset clones with minimal changes. In addition, there's also the fact that we got a measly four new stages; Two for the Switch's big sellers and two for the new franchises introduced. Time constraints are still a thing; Even if Sakurai wanted to add someone like Isaac or Waluigi doesn't necessarily mean he can, especially when he has to juggle a bunch of other characters he was planning as well. Seeing as the base roster was decided all the way back in 2015 and the DLC was finalized in 2018, having a secondary role seems like a good way to include more people. But when the DLC is a thing, there's more chances. Sure, there's a lot of other options as well, but it's still a possibility.
It should also be noted that Spirits are in a similar situation. Sakurai flat-out states that they're a way to "enjoy characters other than fighters" around the 8:00 mark.
if Sakurai intended Spirits to be alternatives to fighters, he evidently didn't have much issue with making Min Min, Pyra, and Mythra fighters despite their Spirit status. I don't really see why ATs are any different; Fundamentally, they're supporting roles for characters who didn't or couldn't become fighters for whatever reason.
I'm just gonna end it with this. I'm not seeing why they're such different situations and I'm pretty sure you're not seeing why they're the same. It's probably better for our time and enjoyment if we just agree to disagree rather than drag on a debate for pages on end with no resolution.
I feel like Monster Hunter, Resident Evil and Devil May Cry are the next big Capcom IPs that will come next. Since the first two are pretty much the big money makers and Devil May Cry is very popular in general.
As for 2 other Capcom IPs that could get in....it's tougher.
Ace Attorney is a popular "Nintendo fan" pick, but it depends on what Sakurai thinks if he can do Phoenix or not.
Morrigan is popular as one of Capcom's biggest Crossover characters for the Versus series, and while Darkstalkers is much like F-Zero currently, Darkstalkers did introduce a lot of elements that many future Fighting games would use, like Air dashes, chain combos and EX-moves.
Final Fight and Ghosts'n Goblins are also both big for their Arcade popularity and Final Fight did play a very big role for both the Beat-em Up genre and Fighting Game genre.
Okami is a big cult classic and also gets alot of attention from Capcom.
Besides those ones, I don't know what other Capcom IPs would get in next after MH, DMC and RE.
It should also be noted that Spirits are in a similar situation. Sakurai flat-out states that they're a way to "enjoy characters other than fighters" around the 8:00 mark.
if Sakurai intended Spirits to be alternatives to fighters, he evidently didn't have much issue with making Min Min, Pyra, and Mythra fighters despite their Spirit status. I don't really see why ATs are any different; Fundamentally, they're supporting roles for characters who didn't or couldn't become fighters for whatever reason.
Exactly this. The spirits, assist trophies and mii costumes in base game were compromise. If opportunity arises for them to just do them anyway, you'd better believe they will.
