Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[FreeFox]

I dont want to get involved in this discussion about whether an assist trophy can or cant be upgraded but I will point out we have a bizarre case on smash ultimate involving certain character....... Chrom, The one character to be a playable fighter, a mii and a final smash/victory pose companion. And you can have all three on the screen at the same time.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I dont want to get involved in this discussion about whether an assist trophy can or cant be upgraded but I will point out we have a bizarre case on smash ultimate involving certain character....... Chrom, The one character to be a playable fighter, a mii and a final smash/victory pose companion. And you can have all three on the screen at the same time.

The Chrom we see in Robin's final smash and victory is future Chrom whereas the one playable is present day Chrom. Two totally different Chrom's. ;P

 

[Knight Dude]

If you want a "NEVER EVER" Capcom character, Gene from God Hand would would be fantastic in any game. Like a goofball Kenshiro just beating the living crap out of everyone.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As far as getting in at some point, I think Capcom's candidates are like this:

Relatively quickly:

• Chun-Li
• Akuma
• Chris, Jill, and/or Leon (which one/ones is/are a crap shoot though)
• Wesker
• Dante
• Monster Hunter
• Zero
• Mega Man X

Will be sprinkled in among the prior group, but won't ever be inherently more likely to show up:

• Zangief
• Guile
• M. Bison
• Chris, Jill, and/or Leon (I don't think there would just be one of them for too long)
• Vergil
• Nero
• Phoenix Wright
• Morrigan
• Arthur
• Dr. Wily
• Sigma

I don't think this is possible. And yet...I wouldn't put it past them to add it anyway:

• Rathelos

...Maybe when everyone else has had their turn:

• Amaterasu
• Viewtiful Joe
• Juri
• Nemesis
• Haggar

 

[Inferno7]

It makes me wonder which are the top 5 capcom ips that could make it into smash? I would love to hear opinions on the subject.

It would 99% be one of these:
-Dante: DMC is a genre-defining IP, and even helped inspire Bayonetta. Add in the massive fan request, insane moveset potential and you have a solid contender.
-Resident Evil rep: Don't think I should even explain this one, it's quite obvious.
-Phoenix Wright: Comes from quite possibly the most popular visual novel IP and is moderately requested.
-Monster Hunter: One of their top dogs in sales atm. Also very beloved and popular franchise, only problem here would be Capcom saying ''no'' to a playable hunter, but they have been shown to do that in MvCI.
-Amaterasu: While her franchise is dormant, there are plans to revive it in the future and she has quite a decent following albeit not as big as someone like Phoenix or Dante.
Not taking other IPs into consideration because it has been said in the past that dead franchises are rarely chosen.

 

[Knight Dude]

I dont want to get involved in this discussion about whether an assist trophy can or cant be upgraded but I will point out we have a bizarre case on smash ultimate involving certain character....... Chrom, The one character to be a playable fighter, a mii and a final smash/victory pose companion. And you can have all three on the screen at the same time.

Many fighting games have situations where you have background characters getting multiple roles and the like.

It's only for things like Smash where people would get into deep theories about this stuff or say that because a character has one defined lesser role they aren't allowed to have another one. Despite there being like 3 and a half examples of this by now.

Obviously there's only but so much space. So that last character could be just about anyone.

 

[Sophitia]

I'd like CP11 to be a Resident Evil rep, I'm not expecting it though but it'd be a pleasant surprise. Though honestly, no matter who is chosen I can't really get angry considering just how massive the roster currently is.

 

[FreeFox]

Many fighting games have situations where you have background characters getting multiple roles and the like.

It's only for things like Smash where people would get into deep theories about this stuff or say that because a character has one defined lesser role they aren't allowed to have another one. Despite there being like 3 and a half examples of this by now.

Obviously there's only but so much space. So that last character could be just about anyone.

I know of Chrom and I assume you are referring to Toon link for the second one but who is the third?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think the funniest thing about Resident Evil discussions is that it seems to be the only horror game allowed at the table because it's so popular and has already been affiliated with Super Smash Bros. Every time a different game in the genre is mentioned it's like "no. Too spoopy."

Granted, the only other games that ever get mentioned are Silent Hill and Five Nights at Freddy's and the latter has been disconfirmed, and Resident Evil does have this argument used a bit as well...actually there's probably more to it than I had originally claimed.

...

I guess I just want to see more Silent Hill discussion.

 

[NessAtc.]

I know of Chrom and I assume you are referring to Toon link for the second one but who is the third?

Dedede appears in Dreamland 64's background, and there are Piranha Plants on the Mushroom Kingdom stage, as a prominent stage hazard even.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I know of Chrom and I assume you are referring to Toon link for the second one but who is the third?

The Duck Hunt Dog on the game's stage? Dedede in Dream Land 64?

 

[Inferno7]

I think the funniest thing about Resident Evil discussions is that it seems to be the only horror game allowed at the table because it's so popular and has already been affiliated with Super Smash Bros. Every time a different game in the genre is mentioned it's like "no. Too spoopy."

Granted, the only other games that ever get mentioned are Silent Hill and Five Nights at Freddy's and the latter has been disconfirmed, and Resident Evil does have this argument used a bit as well...actually there's probably more to it than I had originally claimed.

...

I guess I just want to see more Silent Hill discussion.

I think it also helps that the protagonists/antagonists are very popular and have been in fighting games before, which is quite uncommon for horror games as a whole

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I know of Chrom and I assume you are referring to Toon link for the second one but who is the third?

Dedede appears in Dreamland 64's background, and there are Piranha Plants on the Mushroom Kingdom stage, as a prominent stage hazard even.

The Duck Hunt Dog on the game's stage? Dedede in Dream Land 64?

The one that no one ever mentions despite it being obvious: Donkey Kong on 75M.

EDIT: Maybe it's because nobody wants to remember 75M. lol

 

[Michael the Spikester]

The one that no one ever mentions despite it being obvious: Donkey Kong on 75M.

EDIT: Maybe it's because nobody wants to remember 75M. lol

That was Cranky Kong in his younger years.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Maybe it's because nobody wants to remember 75M

Well that and they're two separate Donkey Kongs in canon anyway.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Pic of the Day:

pic.twitter.com/M3cKG6fgbs

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) July 5, 2021

A devil and his dog. Who knew that Kazuya was John Wick all along?

 

[7NATOR]

100% this

waluigi? shadow? zero??
as someone who wants all of these characters on the roster one day; none of them even hold a candle to bomberman

Shadow and Waluigi are more Recognizable characters than Bomberman though, and Zero is probably up there too

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think it also helps that the protagonists/antagonists are quite popular and have been in fighting games before, and that's quite uncommon for horror games as a whole

That is true, and the fact that Resident Evil had a string of movies and decided to go full campy action mode for a bit probably also helps since it's not weird for the characters to be in action set pieces like fighting games.

Whereas characters from other survival horror games either have the fact that they suck in combat scenarios or the fact that they're supposed to be a lumbering threat as their defining characteristics. Neither of which lend themselves to Super Smash Bros. all that well.

...Yeah getting characters like Pyramid Head in the game might be a bit difficult. Though if Kazuya has taught us anything, we can just slap a bunch of full body intangibility on everything and he'll be fighting fit!

That was Cranky Kong in his younger years.

Well that and they're two separate Donkey Kongs in canon anyway.

points out obscure Donkey Kong lore to flex on people
doesn't point out that Piranha Plant is a species, so it's not weird if there are multiple of them

I see how it is...


Regardless, they're both recognized as the same icon so it still counts.

 

[Ivander]

I guess I just want to see more Silent Hill discussion.

Silent Hill would be cool. It's just more like.....horror game protagonists aren't exactly the most unique characters. Like it's sorta hard to imagine how Harry, James, Heather, etc, would be different and interesting in their own way compared to Chris, Leon, Jill, etc. I mean, they could be more melee-oriented considering Silent Hill has alot more melee weapons compared to Resident Evil.

Like it's hard to imagine the Silent Hill character being anybody besides Pyramid Head as he is easily one of the most recognisable characters in general. And Pyramid Head has the benefit of having a decently tame design, despite his horrific lore, representation and whatnot.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

My logic was a little flawed with Sonic and Mega Man I'll admit, I probably should've just grouped them with Banjo as being highly requested for a while. But Sonic was added in after the game got delayed due to fan demand, and while Mega Man saw a bunch of support during the Brawl days, it wasn't until Smash 4 when he finally got in. I feel Crash will experience a similar fate, sort of like Isabelle, K. Rool and Chrom in Smash 4.

I'm not arguing that Crash shouldn't be in Smash. My main point against him was that I don't think he's requested enough or has been requested long enough to make it into Ultimate. Next game? Easy frontrunner. But for right now, I don't see it happening due to major support for him not starting until after Smash Ultimate was first announced. Crash has done a good job staying relevant these past few years, but even so a character that's seen as such a big request like him would most certainly be revealed at E3 or the Game Awards. It's possible they wait until December to reveal him but it's still not super likely. But of course Crash is gonna be more recognized than any Tekken character by Nintendo fans, Tekken isn't on the Switch and has only had 3 games prior, two of which were handheld games, meanwhile Crash has received a remastered collection, racing game and new entry over the past few years, while always being a speculated character. At the end of the day, Nintendo wants to sell the pass, so they're gonna put their biggest, farthest reaching characters in the middle of the pass. For Fighter Pass 1 it was Hero and Banjo, and for Fighter Pass 2 it was Steve and Sephiroth. It makes no sense for them to end on a big character from a financial standpoint nor have they done it before, which is the biggest thing against Crash atm. And I wasn't saying Crash wasn't iconic. I'm saying that without the Nintendo rivalry, he didn't impact much as far as gaming as a whole. Recognizable sure, but he's a $50 million Banjo as far as I can tell. A rival to Mario sure, but a rival that they basically gave up on after the PS1. He's the most noteworthy unimpactful on gaming third party character I can think of.

My main argument though was against third parties that don't have much in terms of leaving an impact on gaming. They may be known, but most third parties playable in Smash tend to be from series often revered as the best in their genre, and if they're not they're characters that have been highly requested for a while. I don't get your section on Castlevania at all considering it's part of the name of an entire genre right alongside Metroid, which has inspired many other games to be made.

I'd be curious to hear who you consider fits the criteria though, cause there's definitely plenty of options (deconfirmed or not)

To be clear, I think it's increasingly likely that Crash unfortunately misses this boat, but I don't agree with a few of your points:

1. Fighter's Pass 2's "Hype Curve" - I find some of the Fighter's Pass 2 theory crafting in terms of the big reveals a little bit less convincing than a more obvious pattern with Pass 1, and I think that's made some people lean too far into Pass 2 emulating a similar curve of hype/major series. But the reality is that's just not the case and largely hasn't been since Min Min made her debut. Joker may not have been the biggest character in Pass 1, but he was very clearly starting off the Pass with a massive bang that declared Ultimate was playing by a whole new set of rules in the DLC. Min Min, and I mean this with no offense to her or ARMS, is incredibly far from being this type of character. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that she's the smallest character of this Pass with how requested XC2 had become. Sure, Steve was then huge and Sephiroth was big, but then we saw another fall in the crossover only for it to rebound to Kazuya, who I think absolutely matches Sephiroth in terms of appeal.

The arc isn't there and people can point to a financial incentive all they want, but Min Min already kind of throws that out the window. They didn't start from a particularly high note to get people super excited and buying into the Pass immediately. A well crafted and well received character? Sure. A traditionally hype pick that sets a tone in the same way Joker did? Not even close. They could have front loaded Steve, Sephiroth, and Kazuya, but they very clearly didn't and even broke up their big third party crossovers with another first party of a smaller, albeit somewhat requested, scale.

I think it's very easy to forget that Smash 4 didn't technically end on a "less hype" moment, it ended on Bayonetta, an incredibly popular character that people thought was impossible. I know a bunch of very angry fans either hyper fixated on Corrin or have spent the past 5 years downplaying Bayonetta's accomplishment, but I think it's worth noting that while Bayonetta was not the "biggest character", she was still a kind of crazy third party inclusion. So Smash 4 DLC and by extension Smash 4 did not end on a "low note" as much as people may try and argue the point, and I think it's worth considering they decided this next character to be the final character of Smash Ultimate when they decided this Pass it seems. People can obsess over Fighter's Pass 1 or Base Roster not ending on the most hype inclusion... but this is also an entirely unique context that I think warrants a little more curiosity and the only point of comparison that rings true for me is Smash 4 ending with Bayonetta.


2. Crash Has the Type of Influence You're Claiming is Needed - I think it's kind of easy to set aside Crash when funnily enough I think the series actually largely took Mario into 3D more than Mario himself did. And by that, I mean that Crash wasl still a fundamentally level based game about getting to the goal and collecting things along the way whereas Mario helped originate the collectathon. Crash offered a different option to developers that was still much more inherently focused on getting to an objective at the end of the level one level at a time and pretty much defined how you would approach that concept and was seen in other platformers during the late 90s and early 2000s. And like it's easy to take for granted nowadays, but back in the mid 90s, that kind of successful 3D platformer that early on in 96 had an influence.

Beyond that, Crash was a defining mascot of the PS1. I shouldn't really have to say more in how influential that was. The PS1 put Sony on the map and absolutely demolished the Nintendo 64 and Sega Saturn at the time. Crash was as to PS1 as Mario was to Nintendo as Sonic was to Sega. He didn't get to enjoy that success beyond that era as he was a third party, but for a time he was an industry defining mascot that Sony used in lots of things and was an actually serious competitor to Mario in the 90s.

Crash as an IP has sold over 50 million copies of titles, which puts him actually in the big leagues (for the record, he's only below Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Sonic, Minecraft and is basically matching Tekken for franchise sales) and N'Sane Trilogy alone sold over 10 million copies and is one of the highest selling third party releases on Switch. I think there's more than enough history, legacy, and popularity even as just a recognizable gaming icon to warrant him fitting in with the criteria you've listed.

3. Third Party Criteria/Castlevania - My point was to show that there are options in Smash that don't exactly fit your criteria. Trying to ram Persona and King of Fighters/Fatal Fury into the "Sakurai Bias" column feels really forced when Nintendo made that decision and also discredits the individual legacies of both of those franchises despite them actually being really quite influential and less overtly successful. They may not have the biggest legacies, but they have a legacy, are notable franchises in their own right, and have plenty of reason to be included beyond Sakurai having a personal interest in them. Sure, Smash has included a lot of legendary and genre defining franchises and will continue to do... but they are reaching a point where they have to dig a little deeper for options. Which is to say, for Japanese third parties with sales over 30 million copies, there's basically Resident Evil, Monster Hunter, Kingdom Hearts, and Dark Souls. At some point, they are going to be choosing less inherently successful and defining franchises because they've done such a good job at including so many. And that's not to knock those franchises, but just, they aren't as financially successful as those already in.

As for Castlevania, it defines a very narrow specific sub-genre of games with Metroid that was arguably the bigger influencer, but it is ultimately a 2D action platformer, of which tons came of the 80s and 90s. I'm not saying Castlevania wasn't of high quality, influential in some ways, or beloved, but rather it was just a generally successful IP in the land of successful 2D platforming IPs. Not a knock on the franchise, but rather an acknowledgement that it is the smaller side of the massive IPs in this game already close to the likes of Persona and SNK rather than Sonic, Final Fantasy, and Minecraft.


I don't really agree with your criteria, but a short list of options would be: Arle from Puyo Puyo, Kunio-kun from River City, Dragonborn from Skyrim, any Dark Souls character, yes Crash Bandicoot, Dante from Devil May Cry, Sora from Kingdom Hearts, Adol Christian from Ys, Phoenix Wright because he's been a defining figure of visual novels (Ayumi if you wanna go old school and Nintendo), Master Chief from Halo, and Doomguy from Doom all fit the bill and tons more for that matter.

 

[Peripuff]

The thing is though that tails can appear in spirit events when unlocked in WOL and has appeared in multiple events over the year. Same with every of sonic spirit that is unlockable in the spirit board. The only one who doesn’t appear is shadow and we could sit here and say “well there’s probably something behind the scenes that prevents him from being used” and if that was the case then most of the sonic spirits wouldn’t be allowed in other events or shadow wouldn’t of been allowed back as an assist trophy, knuckles wouldn’t be an assist trophy and sakurai probabaly wouldn’t of been able to mention shadow in his anniversary pictures.

I checked Tails too, he doesn’t appear in themed spirit events either. At least to my knowledge.

 

[Sophitia]

I wonder how the music selection would be for Silent Hill. I love Silent Hill soundtracks but I don't know if Sakurai would view them as fitting for a fighting game.

 

[FreeFox]

But there is representation of horror in smash. Its called Yuri Kozukata! My brother is right. More people need to give fatal frame a chance.

The one that no one ever mentions despite it being obvious: Donkey Kong on 75M.

EDIT: Maybe it's because nobody wants to remember 75M. lol

I hate that stage and it only returned to give us that awful Pauline spirit battle.

 

[ZelDan]

One thing I've thought about when it comes to promoting assist trophies is Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle.

NOW YES, I REALIZE THESE 3 WERE UPGRADED BETWEEN DIFFERENT GAMES AND NOT THE SAME GAME, but, the thing is, what if we look at things from a different perspective. Instead of seeing Brawl, Smash 4 and Ultimate as "different games," we see them as "different development cycles" because, well, all Smash games do have different development cycles from eachother (Smash 4 and Ultimate had some level of overlap though, not complete overlap though I would think) with this logic, we could say that Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle were promoted within "different development cycles."

Now, this is interesting, because Smash Ultimate is one of the biggest Smash games we had, and so far, is the only Smash game to have a Second batch of DLC, and this btach has had characters like Min Min and Pyra/Mythra added, who were characters that had representation in base game. With these characters being in FP2, it's pretty clear that FP2 is likely a different development cycle from base game and FP1.

Which I guess leads me to my point, if we could see assist trophy promotions happen between the different development cycles of "Smash 4" and "Ultimate base game/FP1", whose to say we might not see another assist promotion between the different development cycles of "Ultimate base game/FP1" and "Ultimate FP2?"

 

[Knight Dude]

I know of Chrom and I assume you are referring to Toon link for the second one but who is the third?

For Smash, I was thinking non-playable characters being playable later like Min-Min and Pyra being Spirit Battles. Though Toon Link's stage cameo also makes sense.

Other fighting games like Injustice has Martian Manhunter in a stage, but he was DLC later. Injustice 2 with Black Manta. And Marvel Superheroes vs Street Fighter has Peter Parker in a stage, but he doesn't show up if Spider-Man is selected, and instead J. Jonah Jameson will be there. Tekken 5 and Tekken 7's beach stages with Lee Chaolan.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Silent Hill would be cool. It's just more like.....horror game protagonists aren't exactly the most unique characters. Like it's sorta hard to imagine how Harry, James, Heather, etc, would be different and interesting in their own way compared to Chris, Leon, Jill, etc. I mean, they could be more melee-oriented considering Silent Hill has alot more melee weapons compared to Resident Evil.

That would probably be it then. Resident Evil protagonists manage their resources so that they can be good zoners, while Silent Hill protagonists have to race to find a weapon that gives them good normals.

Like it's hard to imagine the Silent Hill character being anybody besides Pyramid Head as he is easily one of the most recognisable characters in general. And Pyramid Head has the benefit of having a decently tame design, despite his horrific lore, representation and whatnot.

Since the character has kind of transcended his series, I don't think it would be a bad thing if they just did him. The main issue is getting him working.

But there is representation of horror in smash. Its called Yuri Kozukata! My brother is right. More people need to give fatal frame a chance.

I didn't say there wasn't any. In fact, there are also Spirits from Eternal Darkness. I was just pointing out that nobody really talks about horror series as possible additions except for Resident Evil (and sometimes Five Nights at Freddy's for Mii Costumes).

 

[7NATOR]

To be clear, I think it's increasingly likely that Crash unfortunately misses this boat, but I don't agree with a few of your points:

1. Fighter's Pass 2's "Hype Curve" - I find some of the Fighter's Pass 2 theory crafting in terms of the big reveals a little bit less convincing than a more obvious pattern with Pass 1, and I think that's made some people lean too far into Pass 2 emulating a similar curve of hype/major series. But the reality is that's just not the case and largely hasn't been since Min Min made her debut. Joker may not have been the biggest character in Pass 1, but he was very clearly starting off the Pass with a massive bang that declared Ultimate was playing by a whole new set of rules in the DLC. Min Min, and I mean this with no offense to her or ARMS, is incredibly far from being this type of character. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that she's the smallest character of this Pass with how requested XC2 had become. Sure, Steve was then huge and Sephiroth was big, but then we saw another fall in the crossover only for it to rebound to Kazuya, who I think absolutely matches Sephiroth in terms of appeal.

The arc isn't there and people can point to a financial incentive all they want, but Min Min already kind of throws that out the window. They didn't start from a particularly high note to get people super excited and buying into the Pass immediately. A well crafted and well received character? Sure. A traditionally hype pick that sets a tone in the same way Joker did? Not even close. They could have front loaded Steve, Sephiroth, and Kazuya, but they very clearly didn't and even broke up their big third party crossovers with another first party of a smaller, albeit somewhat requested, scale.

I think it's very easy to forget that Smash 4 didn't technically end on a "less hype" moment, it ended on Bayonetta, an incredibly popular character that people thought was impossible. I know a bunch of very angry fans either hyper fixated on Corrin or have spent the past 5 years downplaying Bayonetta's accomplishment, but I think it's worth noting that while Bayonetta was not the "biggest character", she was still a kind of crazy third party inclusion. So Smash 4 DLC and by extension Smash 4 did not end on a "low note" as much as people may try and argue the point, and I think it's worth considering they decided this next character to be the final character of Smash Ultimate when they decided this Pass it seems. People can obsess over Fighter's Pass 1 or Base Roster not ending on the most hype inclusion... but this is also an entirely unique context that I think warrants a little more curiosity and the only point of comparison that rings true for me is Smash 4 ending with Bayonetta.


2. Crash Has the Type of Influence You're Claiming is Needed - I think it's kind of easy to set aside Crash when funnily enough I think the series actually largely took Mario into 3D more than Mario himself did. And by that, I mean that Crash wasl still a fundamentally level based game about getting to the goal and collecting things along the way whereas Mario helped originate the collectathon. Crash offered a different option to developers that was still much more inherently focused on getting to an objective at the end of the level one level at a time and pretty much defined how you would approach that concept and was seen in other platformers during the late 90s and early 2000s. And like it's easy to take for granted nowadays, but back in the mid 90s, that kind of successful 3D platformer that early on in 96 had an influence.

Beyond that, Crash was a defining mascot of the PS1. I shouldn't really have to say more in how influential that was. The PS1 put Sony on the map and absolutely demolished the Nintendo 64 and Sega Saturn at the time. Crash was as to PS1 as Mario was to Nintendo as Sonic was to Sega. He didn't get to enjoy that success beyond that era as he was a third party, but for a time he was an industry defining mascot that Sony used in lots of things and was an actually serious competitor to Mario in the 90s.

Crash as an IP has sold over 50 million copies of titles, which puts him actually in the big leagues (for the record, he's only below Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Sonic, Minecraft and is basically matching Tekken for franchise sales) and N'Sane Trilogy alone sold over 10 million copies and is one of the highest selling third party releases on Switch. I think there's more than enough history, legacy, and popularity even as just a recognizable gaming icon to warrant him fitting in with the criteria you've listed.

3. Third Party Criteria/Castlevania - My point was to show that there are options in Smash that don't exactly fit your criteria. Trying to ram Persona and King of Fighters/Fatal Fury into the "Sakurai Bias" column feels really forced when Nintendo made that decision and also discredits the individual legacies of both of those franchises despite them actually being really quite influential and less overtly successful. They may not have the biggest legacies, but they have a legacy, are notable franchises in their own right, and have plenty of reason to be included beyond Sakurai having a personal interest in them. Sure, Smash has included a lot of legendary and genre defining franchises and will continue to do... but they are reaching a point where they have to dig a little deeper for options. Which is to say, for Japanese third parties with sales over 30 million copies, there's basically Resident Evil, Monster Hunter, Kingdom Hearts, and Dark Souls. At some point, they are going to be choosing less inherently successful and defining franchises because they've done such a good job at including so many. And that's not to knock those franchises, but just, they aren't as financially successful as those already in.

As for Castlevania, it defines a very narrow specific sub-genre of games with Metroid that was arguably the bigger influencer, but it is ultimately a 2D action platformer, of which tons came of the 80s and 90s. I'm not saying Castlevania wasn't of high quality, influential in some ways, or beloved, but rather it was just a generally successful IP in the land of successful 2D platforming IPs. Not a knock on the franchise, but rather an acknowledgement that it is the smaller side of the massive IPs in this game already close to the likes of Persona and SNK rather than Sonic, Final Fantasy, and Minecraft.


I don't really agree with your criteria, but a short list of options would be: Arle from Puyo Puyo, Kunio-kun from River City, Dragonborn from Skyrim, any Dark Souls character, yes Crash Bandicoot, Dante from Devil May Cry, Sora from Kingdom Hearts, Adol Christian from Ys, Phoenix Wright because he's been a defining figure of visual novels (Ayumi if you wanna go old school and Nintendo), Master Chief from Halo, and Doomguy from Doom all fit the bill and tons more for that matter.

I agree with your essay, and I have 3 things to say about it

-there's been speculation that Min Min wasn't intentionally going to be CP6, but perhaps Sephiroth. there's also been speculation that when Min Min were to be revealed, that Another character like Steve would have been revealed with her

Of course that's just speculation and not what happened, which is Min Min being the only revealed FP2 character for like 3 months, not including the Time before with the ARMS guessing game

-I think when people paint Bayonetta as disappointing inclusion, I think it's because she (along with Corrin) came after Cloud and Ryu, who were bigger adds, not necessarily that she was disappointing, but that she couldn't match hype of the previous characters

Though I agree that people do kind of underrate how exciting Bayonetta was (Perhaps what happened after she released might be affecting things). She's the biggest reason why I think that this last character doesn't have to be disappointing. It might not be a character as Big as Steve for example, but it still can be exciting addition

-I do think there is a difference between how characters like Joker and Terry where chosen, in Comparison to characters like Hero and Byleth, because the later 2 had Nintendo has a primary reason those characters got in (Because in Hero's Case, Sakurai didn't think it be possible to get Dragon Quest in). I do think Sakurai was a bigger factor in characters like Joker and Terry being in, but I think Nintendo ultimately saw the value in those characters, so they chose to have them still be DLC, even if those characters weren't the biggest priorities like with Hero

One thing I've thought about when it comes to promoting assist trophies is Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle.

NOW YES, I REALIZE THESE 3 WERE UPGRADED BETWEEN DIFFERENT GAMES AND NOT THE SAME GAME, but, the thing is, what if we look at things from a different perspective. Instead of seeing Brawl, Smash 4 and Ultimate as "different games," we see them as "different development cycles" because, well, all Smash games do have different development cycles from eachother (Smash 4 and Ultimate had some level of overlap though, not complete overlap though I would think) with this logic, we could say that Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle were promoted within "different development cycles."

Now, this is interesting, because Smash Ultimate is one of the biggest Smash games we had, and so far, is the only Smash game to have a Second batch of DLC, and this btach has had characters like Min Min and Pyra/Mythra added, who were characters that had representation in base game. With these characters being in FP2, it's pretty clear that FP2 is likely a different development cycle from base game and FP1.

Which I guess leads me to my point, if we could see assist trophy promotions happen between the different development cycles of "Smash 4" and "Ultimate base game/FP1", whose to say we might not see another assist promotion between the different development cycles of "Ultimate base game/FP1" and "Ultimate FP2?"

This is correct, Especially since Base game also wasn't developed with FP1 in Mind, as Sakurai confirmed that DLC was decided to be developed sometime around January of 2018, long after Base game contents were decided

Of course I think DLC was talked about before that actual decision, but the Dev Team didn't factor the DLC into Development at the time. The Assist Trophies were likely decided on when Base game was what it was all it was gonna be, and considering the Base roster had such few Newcomers, especially unique ones, and characters like Sephiroth and Steve had to wait till Pass 2 to be included on the roster, I do believe there is more merit to the possibility of Assist characters to be added in, especially some of the veteran Assist Trophies, since they had the expectation to return in this game,

 

[subterrestrial]

Shadow and Waluigi are more Recognizable characters than Bomberman though, and Zero is probably up there too

shadow zero waluigi are all very cool but that is objectively false

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

This is super late to be a part of the BPM based mechanic discussion, but if a Rhythm Heaven character gets added, they absolutely must have a BPM dependent head bop as their idle animation.

 

[PeridotGX]

This is super late to be a part of the BPM based mechanic discussion, but if a Rhythm Heaven character gets added, they absolutely must have a BPM dependent head bop as their idle animation.

rip to the chorus kid boppin to marx' theme

look at this time signature bull****

 

[SharkLord]

I dont want to get involved in this discussion about whether an assist trophy can or cant be upgraded but I will point out we have a bizarre case on smash ultimate involving certain character....... Chrom, The one character to be a playable fighter, a mii and a final smash/victory pose companion. And you can have all three on the screen at the same time.

Relevant

 

[NessAtc.]

Though I agree that people do kind of underrate how exciting Bayonetta was (Perhaps what happened after she released might be affecting things). She's the biggest reason why I think that this last character doesn't have to be disappointing. It might not be a character as Big as Steve for example, but it still can be exciting addition

Nobody's really arguing that the last character can't be an exciting addition. Just that the excitement is likely a lot more constrained than it would be for Steve or Sephiroth; it won't be someone everyone will like, but it will likely be someone that enough people will like. Nothing to sell the pass, though.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I would be psyched if the final character was Bomberman. Wouldn't mean much for Ultimate, but at least "Miis deconfirm" and "ATs deconfirm" would be dead going in to Smash 6.

It makes me wonder which are the top 5 capcom ips that could make it into smash? I would love to hear opinions on the subject.

For Ultimate? Or Smash 6?

I think Arthur, Dante, Zero and Monster Hunter/Felyne are front runners for Smash 6, but totally out of the running for Ultimate.

Top 5 that could still be in Ultimate?
Jill Valentine
Phoenix Wright
Morrigan
Amaterasu
Viewtiful Joe

 

[RoboFist]

I'm just gonna end it with this. I'm not seeing why they're such different situations and I'm pretty sure you're not seeing why they're the same. It's probably better for our time and enjoyment if we just agree to disagree rather than drag on a debate for pages on end with no resolution.

I agree. Especially since, like we've both said, literally nothing is off the table in terms of what's possible with FP11 and we're just talking exclusively about our personal opinions at this point haha.

For the record, there are no fewer than six ATs that I would absolutely freak out over if any of them were promoted.

 

[Cantplaythesolo]

I don't want to come off like an asshole here, but if the last fighter is a pokemon or trainer theres going to be an outrageous backlash. There are enough pokemon in the game already, like there are enough Mario representatives and enough Fire Emblem representatives.

The last fighter needs to be a big third party to avoid disappointment, Scorpion/Sub-Zero, Crash Bandicoot, Ryu Hayabusa, Isaac from Golden Sun.

That sort of thing.

 

[osby]

The last fighter needs to be a big third party to avoid disappointment, Scorpion/Sub-Zero, Crash Bandicoot, Ryu Hayabusa, Isaac from Golden Sun.

I'm gonna start promoting Ring Fit Adventurer as a big third-party character to dodge any potential backlash.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

View attachment 321703

I'm gonna start promoting Ring Fit Adventurer as a big third-party character to dodge any potential backlash.

Nelson in shambles rn for having to say Isaac is a fanfavourite

 

[ZelDan]

Ah yes, Isaac, my favorite third party character.

I have fond memories of playing Golden Sun on the Nintendon't Gamegear.

 

[Ivander]

Ah yes, Isaac, my favorite third party character.

I have fond memories of playing Golden Sun on the Nintendon't Gamegear.

Hilariously enough, the creators of Golden Sun, Camelot, originally did the Shining Force games and also did two for the Gamegear which were tied together, much like Golden Sun & Golden Sun Lost Age. Those two games eventually became Shining Force CD for the Sega CD.

 

[Schnee117]

shadow zero waluigi are all very cool but that is objectively false

If it's "objectively false" then surely you have proof of that.