Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[TCT~Phantom]

Worth noting that even Sakurai said Ridley is too big. That one isn't entirely a fan rule. It took an all new model design to make him shrinkable. It just started as a fan rule but became reality.

...But yes, in general, this gatekeeping is ridiculous. Of course, there's a huge difference between believing why you don't think a character is likely, and not allowing people to discuss it whatsoever. Being contrarian for the sake of it is annoying, after all.

I mean, he changes his mind a lot when he re evaluates stuff, Villager was too peaceful, Tekken would have been difficult to do, Miis were not combat ready, etc. In terms of concrete statements, they are less of a death knell for the future.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Doesn’t change the fact that for the same reasons it can’t be released in Japan, it wouldn’t be a faithful recreation in Smash. It’d be a Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe type thing and most people didn’t like that game so…

Nope, it’d be an Injustice type inclusion seeing as these are merely guest appearances and not a full game.

People didn’t like MK V DC because of the lack gore, yes. But that was because it was a Mortal Kombat game. Mortal Kombat games need blood and violence.

Guest appearances like Injustice though? People understand these are merely cameos and don’t need to follow Mortal Kombats rules. Like how Kazuya didn’t need Punch and Kick buttons this game despite them being such a massive part of Tekken games.

Why do you think people like me want Scorpion and Sub Zero in the first place? Do you think we’ll keep asking for them, and immediately change our minds and start rioting about how I can’t Rip out Marios spine?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, he changes his mind a lot when he re evaluates stuff, Villager was too peaceful, Tekken would have been difficult to do, Miis were not combat ready, etc. In terms of concrete statements, they are less of a death knell for the future.

I just mean it wasn't exactly a fan rule in the same way as others. It was just something we guessed right.

I wonder if Kazuya not using limb-based gameplay like Min Min was just that; too difficult to implement properly. This might be what he meant by the Devil Gene being the main edge in how he chose.

But yeah, indeed. It's an understandable reason to be skeptical due to them, but they are everchanging as the wind.

 

[Gengar84]

Doesn’t change the fact that for the same reasons it can’t be released in Japan, it wouldn’t be a faithful recreation in Smash. It’d be a Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe type thing and most people didn’t like that game so…

Also we just got Kazuya, a fighting game character. I know we’ve had several RPG characters in the same set of DLC before but I seriouslt



Right, cause that worked so well with Shantae and Dante fans

I think the perfect solution to MK’s gore issue in Smash is to base the characters off their classic SNES games. Scorpion’s fire breathing fatality isn’t really that bad at all and the blood can easily be left out like in the SNES game. MK did have a kid’s cartoon as well as a movie suitable for younger audiences so there is plenty of precedence for toning it down.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

“Perfect storms can fly past the roster” I said earlier on this page. Dante is a big example for that and I’m sure other frontrunners have bitten the dust before when everything seemed to have been aligning for them as I’m sure there will be in the future. Locks are a thing of Smash’s past and the last one added seemed to be Inkling (to the point where they opened the reveal for the game itself). However, as much as perfect storms can fly past, they’re also not discarded for being “too perfect”. Sometimes, things are what they seem. Byleth seems to be our most recent example, however rooted in pessimism their prediction was. And again, the aforementioned Inkling had everything going for them as well and Isabelle had a great resume of her own. I thus don’t subscribe to the notion that a Smash Fanbase monolith is wrong by default and that Dante fans had it coming once he became a bandwagon type of character.

Perfect storms exist, but there’s always room for speculation in the eye of the hurricane. However big Ray-Man, Crash, Master Chief and whoever one deems as the big kids on the block, the chance it isn’t one of them remains bigger than the chance it is them simply by the virtue of the sheer number of characters that aren’t one of the Big Five. A frontrunner is not an eclipsing force that keeps out everyone not them.

 

[Guynamednelson]

once you're added as a Mii Costume, you're done forever

Well that wasn't the case for Inkling, K. Rool, Chrom, and Isabelle. Still seems rather weird that not a single DLC Mii character was a fighter.

 

[Bobthealligator]

I mean, he changes his mind a lot when he re evaluates stuff, Villager was too peaceful, Tekken would have been difficult to do, Miis were not combat ready, etc. In terms of concrete statements, they are less of a death knell for the future.

In terms of Tekken being too difficult to do. He hasn't really changed his mind on that. That's why he picked Kazuya so he can use the Devil form to do the Smash stuff that Tekken characters can't otherwise do.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think the perfect solution to MK’s gore issue in Smash is to base the characters off their classic SNES games. Scorpion’s fire breathing fatality isn’t really that bad at all and the blood can easily be left out like in the SNES game. MK did have a kid’s cartoon as well as a movie suitable for younger audiences so there is plenty of precedence for toning it down.

It helps that the original movie is beloved for capturing the feel of the characters and game overall despite the lack of gore. Second movie... well, it's not that it doesn't do the same idea, but it had too many characters to allow for, well, anything. It's still a fun movie and has a beautiful music score to it, but that's... all it has. Okay, the character designs are actually pretty good for the most part. Shao Kahn actually feels like the beefy man he normally is, even if slightly less toned. It's more that he came off as whiny that people didn't enjoy, because it goes against his characterization. He's never been a manchild till way later on(that is, how he talks. He still acts like one in his actions), well after Deception as is. Hell, he's more accurate in the cartoon, with the consistently booming voice. And he still acts the same otherwise, or as best as he can.

 

[Guynamednelson]

In terms of Tekken being too difficult to do. He hasn't really changed his mind on that. That's why he picked Kazuya so he can use the Devil form to do the Smash stuff that Tekken characters can't otherwise do.

tbh I kinda want a second Tekken rep already for the sole purpose of seeing Sakurai NOT try to "Smashify" them as much. A and B should be punch and kick, with nothing resembling special moves.

 

[Schnee117]

Right, cause that worked so well with Shantae and Dante fans

It actually did though, the absolute worst I've seen is a couple of random clowns on twitter whining in the replies to Matt Bozon's tweet about the Shantae costume which is nothing remotely significant at all.

Everyone else is having fun and making memes and ****.

 

[SNEKeater]

Yeah, I'm getting some real Monster Hunter Rise vibes with all this SMT talk.

and why not some Dragon Quest XI vibes?

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

It actually did though, the absolute worst I've seen is a couple of random clowns on twitter whining in the replies to Matt Bozon's tweet about the Shantae costume which is nothing remotely significant at all.

Everyone else is having fun and making memes and ****.

You must not frequent SmashFaqs

The toxicity could melt a power plant

 

[Gengar84]

It helps that the original movie is beloved for capturing the feel of the characters and game overall despite the lack of gore. Second movie... well, it's not that it doesn't do the same idea, but it had too many characters to allow for, well, anything. It's still a fun movie and has a beautiful music score to it, but that's... all it has. Okay, the character designs are actually pretty good for the most part. Shao Kahn actually feels like the beefy man he normally is, even if slightly less toned. It's more that he came off as whiny that people didn't enjoy, because it goes against his characterization. He's never been a manchild till way later on(that is, how he talks. He still acts like one in his actions), well after Deception as is. Hell, he's more accurate in the cartoon, with the consistently booming voice. And he still acts the same otherwise, or as best as he can.

Yeah, I definitely think the popularity of the original movie helps their odds. I hope we at least get Techno Syndrome from the first movie but I’d love the Goro battle theme from it as well. The movie actually has a more iconic OST than the games, at least in my mind.

 

[Technomage]

I personally think he's all but guaranteed for next game given how they addressed his popularity, thing is I don't want to see Seph and the others go just to get Dante (a soul for a soul ig)

Well, there is a chance that you won't have to for the next Smash, since there's a chance we get to keep all the vets and get plenty of newcomers (as unlikely as that may be).

 

[MarioRaccoon]

We got two upgrades of DLC Smash 4 Mii Costumes; Akira Yuki and Rathalos armor to assist trophies in base game.

Smash is very important to Nintendo (third best selling switch game) and its interesting to see what they are planning to do with the franchise in the future. Ultimate was made in roughly 3 years, so if they are already thinking of a new game, it will probably be release by late 2024/early 2025.

But for this things we should wait a bit and see whats their future plans with the next switch revision. I would prefer to iterate Ultimate with FP1/2 on the cartridge and add 6 new characters, stages, assist trophy, pokemon and a very few fair things (maybe improved online, but that could happened with base game).

 

[Speed Weed]

Well that wasn't the case for Inkling, K. Rool, Chrom, and Isabelle. Still seems rather weird that not a single DLC Mii character was a fighter.

Yeah that's the point

I did say that was very likely not the case, and good point on bringing up Inkling and the others - actually forgot about their situation

 

[volbound1700]

The problem is most of this stuff you listed is subjective, even if I personally agree with it.

For instance, Geno is 99.99% likely dead this game, his Mii is a silver bullet of sorts. But so long as Geno fans are respectful and acknowledge his shot is not great right now, why should they be gatekept from speculating on their character?

Fan rules are always concrete except when they aren’t. Sometimes, these rules are broken easily. Smash is no longer a Nintendo all stars game and hasn’t since November 2015. Ridley is not too big. Microsoft is involved with smash now. Many fan rules, such as no third party getting a second rep and then a second unique rep or spirits deconfirming, have been disproven.

Now, does that mean Waluigi for instance is a lock because ATs don’t deconfirm? Not in the slightest, but gate keeping like this is not good either.

If you speculate on chance, you can’t really gatekeep and you have to keep everything in mind. I run Rate Their Chances. We debate and discuss all sorts of characters for smash, and honestly we have had pretty good track records for the most part. We did say that Sephiroth as a whole was underrated before he got in, and said SNK was a dark horse. Our only real miss was Kazuya, mainly because everyone thought Tekken was dead after the Heihachi Mii. Part of the reason for our success is that we don’t gatekeep, people can nominate and bring up anything. Heck, people helped nominate SNK, Sephiroth, or Joker (who was revealed right before we would have discussed him in about a week.) Gatekeeping is bad.


Saying a character is unlikely is fine. For example I say Rayman is unlikely all the time. Saying people shouldn’t talk about rayman or support him is a different matter. If someone can make a good case for Rayman, I can respect it. Speculation is subjective, but you can’t throw objectivity out the window. Build your case for a character and why they are likely. Don’t gatekeep who others might think are likely or you might miss important points.

The issue that I have with a lot of posters on here including your comments above is that you act like there are actual FACTs in Smash. There is very little data to support whether a character will be added or not. Everyone on both sides is using Circumstantial Evidence. The only exception might be direct comments like Sakurai confirming that FP#11 is the final fighter pass in his Direct.

His argument about MK is a fairly sound argument. The game has not been released in Japan so that does significantly hurt the chance for a MK character. We also got a Tekken character recently. I would say that MK has almost no chance of being in Smash Ultimate.

Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE MK fan and that is the fighting game that I grew up with. I had the original MK on my Sega Genesis as a kid.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You must not frequent SmashFaqs

The toxicity could melt a power plant

...GameFAQs. They are massively toxic and a minority as is. They're generally nothing like the normal fanbases.

Yeah, I definitely think the popularity of the original movie helps their odds. I hope we at least get Techno Syndrome from the first movie but I’d love the Goro battle theme from it as well. The movie actually has a more iconic OST than the games, at least in my mind.

Speaking of music, have we ever gotten any music that isn't from a game... yet? I think that's the only weakness. Then again, Sakurai has it so the IP owners choose the music anyway. If they didn't choose non-game music, it's probably cause of licensing. WB might be different. They know damn well Techno Syndrome is massively popular. Even stuff from the Cartoon has fully been incorporated into the games. There's a joke on Kombat Time, they switched the ethnicities of Cyrax and Sektor(exactly, though this is possibly still a coincidence), and Quan Chi was brought fully into the games, design and all. Even Shang Tsung's movie style is now a thing, mostly cause he's more famous that way.

I don't think it means much for music, but they at least don't care of the origin of a particular bit of the franchise as is, cause if they can use it, there's enough precedent to think they decently could.

The issue that I have with a lot of posters on here including your comments above is that you act like there are actual FACTs in Smash. There is very little data to support whether a character will be added or not. Everyone on both sides is using Circumstantial Evidence. The only exception might be direct comments like Sakurai confirming that FP#11 is the final fighter pass in his Direct.

His argument about MK is a fairly sound argument. The game has not been released in Japan so that does significantly hurt the chance for a MK character. We also got a Tekken character recently. I would say that MK has almost no chance of being in Smash Ultimate.

Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE MK fan and that is the fighting game that I grew up with. I had the original MK on my Sega Genesis as a kid.

...Mortal Kombat's first two games in the series were released in Japan. Just saying. Not that the point isn't good overall, but that's inaccurate.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

At this point, I find it futile to try to guess at who's deconfirmed and who isn't. Lots of characters are, and still are, on the table.

 

[Dinoman96]

So here's a little something, a recap of all the Smash reveals we've gotten at Nintendo's General Directs since March 2018.

It's worth noting that the February Direct of 2019 was the one and only time we didn't get a new reveal for this game...but there's a pretty obvious reason for that: Joker had already been prematurely revealed at TGA 2018 and obviously they weren't about to unveil Hero or whoever when the former still wasn't out. It's pretty obvious that had Nintendo decided to skip TGA that year, they'd reveal Joker in the February Direct.

This is why I'm not too worried about when the last fighter gets unveiled. Since the advent of the Switch, Nintendo has always had one final General Direct for the year in September, and with Generals back on the menu for this year, I'd expect the same. And I can't imagine Smash being a no-show for it.

That is...unless they decide to do a standalone presentation beforehand.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

...GameFAQs. They are massively toxic and a minority as is. They're generally nothing like the normal fanbases.


Speaking of music, have we ever gotten any music that isn't from a game... yet? I think that's the only weakness. Then again, Sakurai has it so the IP owners choose the music anyway. If they didn't choose non-game music, it's probably cause of licensing. WB might be different. They know damn well Techno Syndrome is massively popular. Even stuff from the Cartoon has fully been incorporated into the games. There's a joke on Kombat Time, they switched the ethnicities of Cyrax and Sektor(exactly, though this is possibly still a coincidence), and Quan Chi was brought fully into the games, design and all. Even Shang Tsung's movie style is now a thing, mostly cause he's more famous that way.

I don't think it means much for music, but they at least don't care of the origin of a particular bit of the franchise as is, cause if they can use it, there's enough precedent to think they decently could.


...Mortal Kombat's first two games in the series were released in Japan. Just saying. Not that the point isn't good overall, but that's inaccurate.

Doesn’t Advent Children have a few tracks since Sepiroth?

 

[Gengar84]

I don’t think an MK character is likely either but I feel like people are making too big a deal about the fact that we just had a fighting game character. On two separate occasions in this game, we got two JRPG characters in a row so I don’t think that really has as much an impact as people seem to think.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

I just realized
"Ready? Wallop!" Has been the ONLY spirit event we've ever gotten for a western game/series.
Every other new series/game that got spirits was an Eastern game.
Oof.

Wonder if that'll change in the upcoming months.

 

[Dinoman96]

I just realized
"Ready? Wallop!" Has been the ONLY spirit event we've ever gotten for a western game/series.
Every other new series/game that got spirits was an Eastern game.
Oof.

Wonder if that'll change in the upcoming months.

Well, Warframe got a spirit back in 2020.

Granted, it was apart of a generic black colored event and not its own dedicated thing like with Cuphead, but...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Doesn’t Advent Children have a few tracks since Sepiroth?

I don’t know. But if so, Techno Syndrome has a pretty good chance.

 

[Gengar84]

I don’t know. But if so, Techno Syndrome has a pretty good chance.

Yeah it does but they are just remixes of songs originally from the game. Still, it does show that they are willing to reference other media in some way so I agree it has a good chance. The new MK game even used Techno Syndrome in its trailers.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Doesn’t change the fact that for the same reasons it can’t be released in Japan, it wouldn’t be a faithful recreation in Smash. It’d be a Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe type thing and most people didn’t like that game so…

Also we just got Kazuya, a fighting game character. I know we’ve had several RPG characters in the same set of DLC before but I seriouslt



Right, cause that worked so well with Shantae and Dante fans

It can and has released in Japan, it's just no longer the case by choice, not because it's banned. The second point was already addressed with Injustice being mention alongside the children's cartoon for the series and the third one is as you said, not objectively impossible. That's everyone's issue here, acting like it's a fact

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Well, Warframe got a spirit back in 2020.

Granted, it was apart of a generic black colored event and not its own dedicated thing like with Cuphead, but...

I'm talking about a full spirit event.
I was not referring to individual spirits.

 

[volbound1700]

Nope, it’d be an Injustice type inclusion seeing as these are merely guest appearances and not a full fighter.

People didn’t like MK V DC because of the lack gore, yes. But that was because it was a Mortal Kombat game. Mortal Kombat games need blood and violence.

Guest appearances like Injustice though? People understand these are merely cameos and don’t need to follow Mortal Kombats rules. Like how Kazuya didn’t need Punch and Kick buttons this game despite them being such a massive part of Tekken games.

Why do you think people like me want Scorpion and Sub Zero in the first place? Do you think we’ll keep asking for them, and immediately change our minds and start rioting about how I can’t Rip out Marios spine?

I agree with this, putting an MK character in Smash would be odd because you wouldn't have the gore. That is a HUGE part of MK. You may have the same issue with Doomguy. This is why Masterchief is likely a better option than Doomguy even though I would prefer Doomguy because I think the original Doom games are among the top 10 greatest games ever made and highly influential to the gaming industry. (Sure Wolfenstein was the first mainstream FPS but Doom popularized it and is more iconic than its predecessor. Interesting that both titles are made by the same people).

 

[RileyXY1]

So here's a little something, a recap of all the Smash reveals we've gotten at Nintendo's General Directs since March 2018.

It's worth noting that the February Direct of 2019 was the one and only time we didn't get a new reveal for this game...but there's a pretty obvious reason for that: Joker had already been prematurely revealed at TGA 2018 and obviously they weren't about to unveil Hero or whoever when the former still wasn't out. It's pretty obvious that had Nintendo decided to skip TGA that year, they'd reveal Joker in the February Direct.

This is why I'm not too worried about when the last fighter gets unveiled. Since the advent of the Switch, Nintendo has always had one final General Direct for the year in September, and with Generals back on the menu for this year, I'd expect the same. And I can't imagine Smash being a no-show for it.

That is...unless they decide to do a standalone presentation beforehand.

That's why I expect to see the final character be revealed in September. I don't expect a TGA reveal unless either CP11 is a massive hype bringing character, CP11 has an extremely complex and complicated moveset similar to Steve and Kazyua, or they decided to deliberately time CP11's release date to the anniversary of Ultimate's own release.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The new MK game even used Techno Syndrome in its trailers.

see that's what makes me doubt Techno Syndrome, because the MK devs struggled to ever get to license the song until 11, and they have a higher budget than most fighters get.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I agree with this, putting an MK character in Smash would be odd because you wouldn't have the gore. That is a HUGE part of MK. You may have the same issue with Doomguy. This is why Masterchief is likely a better option than Doomguy even though I would prefer Doomguy because I think the original Doom games are among the top 10 greatest games ever made and highly influential to the gaming industry. (Sure Wolfenstein was the first mainstream FPS but Doom popularized it and is more iconic than its predecessor. Interesting that both titles are made by the same people).

I was kinda arguing in favor of MK lmao.
Feel free to disagree but I’m just fine with an Injustice style take on Scorpion with no blood.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Well that wasn't the case for Inkling, K. Rool, Chrom, and Isabelle. Still seems rather weird that not a single DLC Mii character was a fighter.

Yeah that's the point

I did say that was very likely not the case, and good point on bringing up Inkling and the others - actually forgot about their situation

Yeah I was gonna say that while the first party DLC miis from 4 made the jump to playable, the third party ones didn’t. I personally think first party DLC miis this game are safe to become playable in base next game. Third party miis? Most likely doomed, otherwise we’d have seen Monster Hunter, Geno, Heihachi, Lloyd or Gil in base game.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Ah, "wait until late in the afternoon to play the new guy" day. Truly the best days for any Super Smash Bros. game.

 

[RileyXY1]

Yeah I was gonna say that while the first party DLC miis from 4 made the jump to playable, the third party ones didn’t. I personally think first party DLC miis this game are safe to become playable in base next game. Third party miis? Most likely doomed, otherwise we’d have seen Monster Hunter, Geno, Heihachi, Lloyd or Gil in base game.

Yeah. Especially if the next game builds off of Ultimate. I think that being a 3rd party Mii costume now dooms your chances of ever being playable in Smash.

 

[Inferno7]

Well, there is a chance that you won't have to for the next Smash, since there's a chance we get to keep all the vets and get plenty of newcomers (as unlikely as that may be).

Personally speaking, if they do keep Sephiroth while they add Shadow, Dante or Zero as newcomers (even better if all get in), I'm insta buying

 

[Gengar84]

I was kinda arguing in favor of MK lmao.
Feel free to disagree but I’m just fine with an Injustice style take on Scorpion with no blood.

I’m primarily a fan of the older games and the first movie so I would be more than okay with this. The gore doesn’t really have much an impact to my enjoyment of the characters.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

People are making such a huge deal on Mortal kombat violence. If Nintendo can remove the torture attacks of Bayonetta that you can summon with magic, of course they're going to remove Fatality and blood. If they want MK in Smash they're going to find a way to make it work.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I’m primarily a fan of the older games and the first movie so I would be more than okay with this. The gore doesn’t really have much an impact to my enjoyment of the characters.

I was actually raised with the censored port of the original on Genesis and watched the 90’s movie religiously so I wasn’t even aware of the series Ultraviolent nature until 3 years ago.

I still don’t even really think of MK Characters like Scorpion in the same way I think of M Rated characters like Doomguy.

 

[SKX31]

The thing about the 2010's tournament I wonder is how long after CP11 will Smash get "new" content.


I imagine a lot of the more casual fanbase will fall off after the DLC hype train ends.

TBF both Melee and Brawl enjoyed a decently strong casual playerbase long after release and 4 had a steady online playerbase up until Ultimate released, so I don't think the drop off will be as steep.

It's always helped the Smash series that it's been a great party game as well, lest we forget. And if anything people regardless of skill level will continue playing the game - while competitive players will get most of the spotlight the lower levels of play are also worth noting. And not just because most competitive players come from that huge pool of the lower level players, but primarily since - like most any multiplayer game - the casual segment is the biggest segment in terms of sheer population. Sure the lack of new content is going to cause a bit of a drop-off, but Ultimate's really well-positioned to keep a large chunk of its player base.

Doesn’t Advent Children have a few tracks since Sepiroth?

Yes. Not just Advent's OWA, but also Those who fight (Normal battles) and Those who fight further (Boss battles).

Now that you mention it, I do think that they could've gone with Advent's Jenova theme and its end credits theme Calling. Eh, it's not a huge deal in the end.

Ah, "wait until late in the afternoon to play the new guy" day. Truly the best days for any Super Smash Bros. game.

The release is also wild:

• Refreshing the Software Update "Via the Internet" button around the time the character releases until it works. Bonus points if you're looking at a streamer who's doing the same and following said streamer's button presses.
• Going to patch notes and trying to discern which character's suddenly OP or trash without even having played the new version. You just know that the new guy's broken because, to quote Thinkaman: "This character is broken, I can already tell because character #81 will have both the vibrational energies of 8 and 1--signifying supreme ambition--and will release under Cancer as Mercury ends its retrograde coinciding with the solstice."
• Clear Classic mode with the new guy. Bonus points if you misinput a couple times and never play the new guy again.
• Clear the new guy's Spirit Board. Bonus points if you just screw around with a character you normally don't play because that Spirit combination is just too fun to ignore.
• Go online and see a ton of people using the new guy whether they have a clue on how to use him / her or not. (Optional)