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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Are people expecting Jin echo being shown tomorrow? I don’t see that happening as Sakurai did mention somewhere before that echo fighters wouldn’t be included as DLC at the beginning of the DLC pack but I hope I am wrong about that.
Nobody's expecting it from what I saw. Just a fun thought experiment.

Also, that's a bit misleading. He said they wouldn't be part of the Pass 1 and never spoke on them again. It's a reasonable assumption they wouldn't be part of Pass 2, but we never expected two characters in one pack either. I don't think they're happening, but they can come as part of a challenger pack(two characters in one pack) while not really going against what he actually said at any point. The context does matter in this case. Just like he never said there'd be exactly one Fighter in a Challenger Pack.

Now, what is notable is we didn't see the Echo in the Reveal Trailer. A lot of Echoes got shown off either in a proper Reveal Trailer(which applies to all 3rd party ones thusfar), or just a quick note that that one exists with a short reveal. Jin not being at E3 is enough for me to believe it isn't happening. Not something that wasn't actually a statement applying for Pass 2.
 

Mushroomguy12

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Are people expecting Jin echo being shown tomorrow? I don’t see that happening as Sakurai did mention somewhere before that echo fighters wouldn’t be included as DLC at the beginning of the DLC pack but I hope I am wrong about that.
No, not really, if there was going to be an echo he would have been shown in Kazuya's trailer the same way Simon and Richter appeared together.
 

UltimateCyborgOverlord

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Are people expecting Jin echo being shown tomorrow? I don’t see that happening as Sakurai did mention somewhere before that echo fighters wouldn’t be included as DLC at the beginning of the DLC pack but I hope I am wrong about that.
PERSONALLY, I'm not. I imagine that that would have been shown in the trailer.

Speaking of though, Samus Hunter got onto Twitter with their leak (question mark) about what is to be shown.

Most of what they say is... ehh.... nothing we haven't figured out for ourselves/wasn't basically already expected.

But the two things that stuck out to me were


Kazuya's gimmick is that he has different attacks depending on whether or not he's crouching or standing, and that he has a RAGE mechanic that's good for ONE super strong attack so don't waste it. The Devil thing is just for Smash attacks and specials.

And the other thing being the Sophia and Ghosts n Goblins spirits are apparently coming for everyone with this wave. They dont' mention anything about echoes.
 

Evil Trapezium

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Nobody's expecting it from what I saw. Just a fun thought experiment.

Also, that's a bit misleading. He said they wouldn't be part of the Pass 1 and never spoke on them again. It's a reasonable assumption they wouldn't be part of Pass 2, but we never expected two characters in one pack either. I don't think they're happening, but they can come as part of a challenger pack(two characters in one pack) while not really going against what he actually said at any point. The context does matter in this case. Just like he never said there'd be exactly one Fighter in a Challenger Pack.

Now, what is notable is we didn't see the Echo in the Reveal Trailer. A lot of Echoes got shown off either in a proper Reveal Trailer(which applies to all 3rd party ones thusfar), or just a quick note that that one exists with a short reveal. Jin not being at E3 is enough for me to believe it isn't happening. Not something that wasn't actually a statement applying for Pass 2.
I mean there could be a case.

The small snippet where Sakurai showcases some of Kazuya's moves used the Tekken 3 character select theme and Kazuya only got a cameo in that game.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I mean there could be a case.

The small snippet where Sakurai showcases some of Kazuya's moves used the Tekken 3 character select theme and Kazuya only got a cameo in that game.
Oh, I'm not saying it's impossible either. My point was that people aren't expecting it due to patterns, not a rule that doesn't actually exist for Pass 2.

I mean, some might think the rule still applies, and it's hardly a bad point, but it isn't very solid. It's an issue with how things were handled. There's very few solid things we actually know right now.
 

Star Zen

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I mean there could be a case.

The small snippet where Sakurai showcases some of Kazuya's moves used the Tekken 3 character select theme and Kazuya only got a cameo in that game.
Yeah see that was just strange, I know that Tekken 3 music is legendary and all that but that specific song being shown there was just weird to me at least, why not just play any other random Tekken song vs the one song that originates from a character select screen that he isn't even selectable in lol. plenty of options they had but the song bumps so that's fair to be played anyway lmfao.
 

SKX31

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One thing I've just noticed is that this is our second character in this pass that isn't a zoner (and I'd say the first to not play any sort of mid-range game, but he might have the jukes for it and Pyra seems to be pretty unga bunga so that might not be accurate). Thoughts?
I'm... honestly pretty relieved. While I personally haven't felt that most FP2 characters are overwhelming (online Steves have been pretty damn difficult, but that's partly because those are somewhat rare, meaning online Steves are oftentimes pretty damn good and one doesn't get to practice a lot, and Steve's frame data is quick on the whole meaning he can be difficult to contest) I've been a bit burned out on seeing new characters and playing vs. them kinda similarily (to generalize: avoid their stuff, rush in).

Now Pyra / Mythra deviated quite a lot from that already, but Pyra has some of those qualities (primarily looking at Blazing End , but also F-Tilt) so seeing a character that instead is much more in-your-face like Terry is refreshing.

Nobody's expecting it from what I saw. Just a fun thought experiment.
No, not really, if there was going to be an echo he would have been shown in Kazuya's trailer the same way Simon and Richter appeared together.
I mean there could be a case.

The small snippet where Sakurai showcases some of Kazuya's moves used the Tekken 3 character select theme and Kazuya only got a cameo in that game.
In addition, it's worth noting that the differences between Jin / Kazuya is much wider than Ryu / Ken: because Jin was reworked in 4 and story-wise Jin hates Kazuya and the devil gene to the point he intentionally deviated from the Mishima style. To writ, currently Jin does not have several of Kazuya's trademarks and only share a few: Jin's version of WGF - the Wind Hook Fist - is an exception.

It would not make much if any sense to make him a Kazuya echo: they'd have to go with T3 Jin in order to get a "Echo"able Jin, and even then he'd presumably have quite a few differences since T3 Jin also has some attacks from his mom Jun.

Now yeah Devil Jin did inherit T3 Jin's moveset and thus plays like a Mishima, but it's normal Jin that's making me doubt this since he doesn't play like a Mishima post-3.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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One neat thing Ashley could do is have a move where she adds things to a cauldron, and when she's added enough things, the cauldron will give off an effect. It could be like Hero's Command Selection, except you'd have a decent idea of what the move was going to do before using it depending on what the first and potentially the second ingredient is. You could make it even more interesting by having projectiles and/or items count as ingredients, which would give you more control over what effects the cauldron produces (but that also means that opponents could fill the cauldron as well).
 

UltimateCyborgOverlord

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One neat thing Ashley could do is have a move where she adds things to a cauldron, and when she's added enough things, the cauldron will give off an effect. It could be like Hero's Command Selection, except you'd have a decent idea of what the move was going to do before using it depending on what the first and potentially the second ingredient is. You could make it even more interesting by having projectiles and/or items count as ingredients, which would give you more control over what effects the cauldron produces (but that also means that opponents could fill the cauldron as well).
Grandma's Wig will make you big
KITTEN SPIT, soon your pants won't fit

PANTALONUS GIGANTICUS!


But basically a playable version of the Kawasaki Chef assist trophy?
 

Star Zen

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In addition, it's worth noting that the differences between Jin / Kazuya is much wider than Ryu / Ken: because Jin was reworked in 4 and story-wise Jin hates Kazuya and the devil gene to the point he intentionally deviated from the Mishima style. To writ, currently Jin does not have several of Kazuya's trademarks and only share a few: Jin's version of WGF - the Wind Hook Fist - is an exception.

It would not make much if any sense to make him a Kazuya echo: they'd have to go with T3 Jin in order to get a "Echo"able Jin, and even then he'd presumably have quite a few differences since T3 Jin also has some attacks from his mom Jun.
.
True but I'm pretty sure Jin learned the Mishima Style from Heihachi himself who of course taught Kazuya too, he also uses way more of the Mishima style than Jun's fighting style in Tekken 3 so I don't see why they couldn't just overlook that somewhat, i mean they did it with Simon and Richter sort of with the up B dagger thing ect. and with Tekken 3 being as big as it was i think it would be cool to have Jin sort of representing the older Tekken while Kazuya represents more of the newer Tekken 7 appearance with the suit alt and everything.
 

DrifloonEmpire

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Here is something for fun
If you had the chance to add 5 more Mario character (including from:ultdk::ultyoshi::ultwario:) to smash who would they be and why.
  • Waluigi - the reasons are quite obvious!
  • Toad - I've always loved Toad, and while I do appreciate his increased role in Peach's moveset (and how he lookd like a genuine defender rather than struggling to escape her), he's more than earned his spot as a fighter! He really does feel missing!
  • Captain Syrup - I know a lot of people are on the Ashley train for Wario, but Wario Land is represented by only a single song and three spirits, while WarioWare has everything else. More pirate characters are always fun, and I think both her and the content she'd bring to the table would be more worthwhile than just more WarioWare.
  • Dixie/Cranky - Either one, both to bring some Modern DK content back to the table and because having the modern DK quartet together would be awesome!
  • Paper Mario - Paper Mario's content in Smash is minimal, and if they use the whole series as inspiration they could come up with a very creative moveset! Plus I'd love for him to have a Goombella tattle taunt!

Really this was difficult to decide! Pauline would be great once Waluigi and Toad get in, but I think a few more years to really solidify her as a staple again are what she needs (by comparison, Rosalina got into Smash 7 years after debut. Pauline currently has 4). Birdo would also be a surprisingly fun Dark Horse candidate, but as creative as she would be, she also doesn't feel very "missing" either.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Grandma's Wig will make you big
KITTEN SPIT, soon your pants won't fit

PANTALONUS GIGANTICUS!


But basically a playable version of the Kawasaki Chef assist trophy?
No that's Brawl Kirby. :4pacman:

More seriously though I think the move would be a lot weirder. Depending on what the spells the ingredients could conjure, they could cause some pretty crazy stuff. And honestly since this is WarioWare, the spell effects could probably do just about anything.

...i think it would be cool to have Jin sort of representing the older Tekken while Kazuya represents more of the newer Tekken 7 appearance with the suit alt and everything.
Isn't Tekken known for being largely the same from game to game?
 

Evil Trapezium

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In addition, it's worth noting that the differences between Jin / Kazuya is much wider than Ryu / Ken: because Jin was reworked in 4 and story-wise Jin hates Kazuya and the devil gene to the point he intentionally deviated from the Mishima style. To writ, currently Jin does not have several of Kazuya's trademarks and only share a few: Jin's version of WGF - the Wind Hook Fist - is an exception.

It would not make much if any sense to make him a Kazuya echo: they'd have to go with T3 Jin in order to get a "Echo"able Jin, and even then he'd presumably have quite a few differences since T3 Jin also has some attacks from his mom Jun.

Now yeah Devil Jin did inherit T3 Jin's moveset and thus plays like a Mishima, but it's normal Jin that's making me doubt this since he doesn't play like a Mishima post-3.
I mean, Tekken 3 Jin is the most iconic Jin so they could make that excuse. Plus Rock Howard appearing in King of Fighters stadium despite having only a younger Terry could be like something is taking them out from their different time periods and making them fight against... each... other...

Oh my goodness it all comes back to TimeSplitters.

Time to Split!

Oh yeah I'm ready.gif
 

Star Zen

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Isn't Tekken known for being largely the same from game to game?
Somewhat, honestly since Tekken 5 I would say that has been the case, every game since then has sort of been a "Updated Version" if you will, using Tekken 5 as a base and retaining a lot of animations as well as gameplay elements from 5 and expanding on them. 4 was the black sheep for a bunch of reasons so 5 kind of recreated the formula and built upon it.
 
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chocolatejr9

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I mean, Tekken 3 Jin is the most iconic Jin so they could make that excuse. Plus Rock Howard appearing in King of Fighters stadium despite having only a younger Terry could be like something is taking them out from their different time periods and making them fight against... each... other...

Oh my goodness it all comes back to TimeSplitters.

Time to Split!

View attachment 320806
Time travel, am I right?
 

Oracle Link

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So yeah the dlc ends and we have less music and characters in zelda than in Fireemblem!
There is 0 important modern kirby representation!
Villians and a bunch of enemys are nonexistent and yeah pirahna sucks but atleast they couldve made enemys for some sort of level builder that would have simple movesets but also be playable!
Toad is not there!
Sonic has only 1 fighter and 2 greenhills!
Earthbound has only 1 battle track!

Everyone saying Smash ultimate is ultimate is wrong its special not ultimate reebooting it would yellow water me of! there is so much nintendo content missing its not funny i mean ultimate is a great game but there is 0 reason to reboot smash!
 

Technomage

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So yeah the dlc ends and we have less music and characters in zelda than in Fireemblem!
There is 0 important modern kirby representation!
Villians and a bunch of enemys are nonexistent and yeah pirahna sucks but atleast they couldve made enemys for some sort of level builder that would have simple movesets but also be playable!
Toad is not there!
Sonic has only 1 fighter and 2 greenhills!
Earthbound has only 1 battle track!

Everyone saying Smash ultimate is ultimate is wrong its special not ultimate reebooting it would yellow water me of! there is so much nintendo content missing its not funny i mean ultimate is a great game but there is 0 reason to reboot smash!
Interesting points, though I disagree with you on the villains part, since we have plenty of them: :ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultganondorf::ultkazuya::ultkrool::ultmetaknight::ultpiranha::ultdarkpit::ultridley::ultsephiroth::ultdarksamus::ultmewtwo::ultwolf::ultwario::ultkingdedede: (and also, to a lesser extent, costumes of :ultenderman::ultzombie:)
 
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TCT~Phantom

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Here is something for fun
If you had the chance to add 5 more Mario character (including from:ultdk::ultyoshi::ultwario:) to smash who would they be and why.
Waluigi, Pauline (give her Cappy), Dixie Kong, Cranky Kong, Ashley. Easy.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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He most definitely was a villain in Meta Knights' Revenge (part of Kirby Super Star); plus, he was either a villain or antihero (the latter of which is close enough) in Kirby's Adventure.
Modern Meta Knight and King Dedede absolutely aren't villains though.

Well...I suppose King Dedede gets brainwashed, controlled, and possessed so many times it could be considered close enough. lol
 

Geno Boost

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So yeah the dlc ends and we have less music and characters in zelda than in Fireemblem!
There is 0 important modern kirby representation!
Villians and a bunch of enemys are nonexistent and yeah pirahna sucks but atleast they couldve made enemys for some sort of level builder that would have simple movesets but also be playable!
Toad is not there!
Sonic has only 1 fighter and 2 greenhills!
Earthbound has only 1 battle track!

Everyone saying Smash ultimate is ultimate is wrong its special not ultimate reebooting it would yellow water me of! there is so much nintendo content missing its not funny i mean ultimate is a great game but there is 0 reason to reboot smash!
If we are talking about the Nintendo side of missing content I would say:
the absence of Mike Jones and Nester is strange and it might be because they aren’t Japanese Nintendo characters
Virtual boy content has not yet been represented properly
Wario Land still lack content
The strange absence of Porky
Pokémon mystery dungeon lacks content
R.O.B. Doesn’t have a stage yet
Yoshi and F-zero still not getting their second fighter since the original smash game
No custom moves other than Mii Fighters
 

TheLamerGamer

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Speaking of though, Samus Hunter got onto Twitter with their leak (question mark) about what is to be shown.

Most of what they say is... ehh.... nothing we haven't figured out for ourselves/wasn't basically already expected.

But the two things that stuck out to me were


Kazuya's gimmick is that he has different attacks depending on whether or not he's crouching or standing, and that he has a RAGE mechanic that's good for ONE super strong attack so don't waste it. The Devil thing is just for Smash attacks and specials.

And the other thing being the Sophia and Ghosts n Goblins spirits are apparently coming for everyone with this wave. They dont' mention anything about echoes.
Is Samus Hunter credible? I've never heard of them.

Either way, the Arthur and Sophia spirits are practically guaranteed to be made available to everyone this patch, they've done that for every previous spirit event, including the ones like those, namely partner Pikachu, partner Eevee and Tickles.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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If we are talking about the Nintendo side of missing content I would say:
the absence of Mike Jones and Nester is strange and it might be because they aren’t Japanese Nintendo characters
Virtual boy content has not yet been represented properly
Wario Land still lack content
The strange absence of Porky
Pokémon mystery dungeon lacks content
R.O.B. Doesn’t have a stage yet
Yoshi and F-zero still not getting their second fighter since the original smash game
No custom moves other than Mii Fighters
Nester was from the Nintendo Power Comics, which NP is defunct. It might just be rather low priority. Basically in the same area as Captain N. Notable, but aren't really game-related. Mike Jones would be nice, though. Even as a Spirit alone.
...Wario Land does have small bits of stuff, but needs more, yes.
Porky may not be missing. The two Capsule designs are almost the same. It's a very easy mistake to make for anyone looking up the sprites. The fact they used a sprite from a Deviantart artist instead of the official one shows they aren't perfect.
True.
Depends if they can find a unique area from the few games R.O.B. is in.
That's a bit more justified. F-Zero is beyond dead as a series, and doesn't really have much options outside of quick clones. And Falcon already has one. Yoshi is barely its own thing beyond stages and music. Every single option are also from the Super Mario games, making it... pretty awkward. It was just luckily its own symbol at this point, but isn't branched off enough.
Custom Moves take a massive amount of work. That's why they're only for the Mii Fighters now, since that's their core gimmick(their character concept isn't really a gimmick in the context of unique costume options). Palutena was the only one other to have unique ones and they just took her various moves and put them together to try and create a new balance.

I'd say Toad as playable is definitely on the missing side. Captain Toad isn't in the same all-star status, but having little content is still odd. A stage cameo and some spirits isn't really enough. It's a very good spin-off IP that should have more stuff in general. Also, there's no real Luigi's Mansion 3 content beyond a literal Poltergust design, which is normal that characters take cues from games coming out recently/soon for their designs. So it's badly represented.

Could've used a lot more general Nintendo or otherwise new stages. If they hadn't made the stages from scratch instead of porting them, that might've been a bit better. The stage list isn't technically lacking, but it does feel lopsided. There's less than 10 new stages until the 11 from DLC. Not even 20 new stages for a game with over 80 characters does feel strange, imo. And the newcomer list alone is pretty reasonable sized. They're usually 10-20ish on average, so it doesn't feel odd.
 

Paraster

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PERSONALLY, I'm not. I imagine that that would have been shown in the trailer.

Speaking of though, Samus Hunter got onto Twitter with their leak (question mark) about what is to be shown.

Most of what they say is... ehh.... nothing we haven't figured out for ourselves/wasn't basically already expected.

But the two things that stuck out to me were


Kazuya's gimmick is that he has different attacks depending on whether or not he's crouching or standing, and that he has a RAGE mechanic that's good for ONE super strong attack so don't waste it. The Devil thing is just for Smash attacks and specials.

And the other thing being the Sophia and Ghosts n Goblins spirits are apparently coming for everyone with this wave. They dont' mention anything about echoes.
What Samus Hunter claims about the Devil mechhanic seems pretty logical to me; it matches well with what was shown of it in the trailer. Her description of how Kazuya's Rage works also makes sense, and the crouching thing...probably makes sense (I have almost zero experience with Tekken).

Similar for what she says about the stage; you can see the wall breaking when Kazuya KO's Falcon in the trailer.

I notice she didn't specify who the Mii costumes were beyond the fact they're from Namco (though only "some," apparently?).

Still hoping one of the "new third party collaborations" for Spirits is NEO: The World Ends With You.
 

Rie Sonomura

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What Samus Hunter claims about the Devil mechhanic seems pretty logical to me; it matches well with what was shown of it in the trailer. Her description of how Kazuya's Rage works also makes sense, and the crouching thing...probably makes sense (I have almost zero experience with Tekken).

Similar for what she says about the stage; you can see the wall breaking when Kazuya KO's Falcon in the trailer.

I notice she didn't specify who the Mii costumes were beyond the fact they're from Namco (though only "some," apparently?).

Still hoping one of the "new third party collaborations" for Spirits is NEO: The World Ends With You.
I think they hinted that any Namco costumes aside from Lloyd will have a Tekken focus

still wanna see a Klonoa or Nightmare Mii. Maybe Solaire too
 

Dan Quixote

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Pokémon mystery dungeon lacks content
This one hurts the most dude. Honestly I think a playable fighter from PMD doesn't really fit in Smash. The Pokémon themselves aren't intrinsically different from the main series, so they'd have the same moveset and appearance as just any other Pokémon added to Smash normally, except for maybe having a scarf. But PMD is still a huge, popular, important franchise! The music is so good, there's a lot of Spirit battle potential, and of course... the stage. Imagine a stage like Super Mario Maker, randomly generated every time, based on the mystery dungeons. It would be so sick and represent the spin-off perfectly. (And again, it'd have the dope music)
 

Geno Boost

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Nester was from the Nintendo Power Comics, which NP is defunct. It might just be rather low priority. Basically in the same area as Captain N. Notable, but aren't really game-related. Mike Jones would be nice, though. Even as a Spirit alone.
...Wario Land does have small bits of stuff, but needs more, yes.
Porky may not be missing. The two Capsule designs are almost the same. It's a very easy mistake to make for anyone looking up the sprites. The fact they used a sprite from a Deviantart artist instead of the official one shows they aren't perfect.
True.
Depends if they can find a unique area from the few games R.O.B. is in.
That's a bit more justified. F-Zero is beyond dead as a series, and doesn't really have much options outside of quick clones. And Falcon already has one. Yoshi is barely its own thing beyond stages and music. Every single option are also from the Super Mario games, making it... pretty awkward. It was just luckily its own symbol at this point, but isn't branched off enough.
Custom Moves take a massive amount of work. That's why they're only for the Mii Fighters now, since that's their core gimmick(their character concept isn't really a gimmick in the context of unique costume options). Palutena was the only one other to have unique ones and they just took her various moves and put them together to try and create a new balance.

I'd say Toad as playable is definitely on the missing side. Captain Toad isn't in the same all-star status, but having little content is still odd. A stage cameo and some spirits isn't really enough. It's a very good spin-off IP that should have more stuff in general. Also, there's no real Luigi's Mansion 3 content beyond a literal Poltergust design, which is normal that characters take cues from games coming out recently/soon for their designs. So it's badly represented.

Could've used a lot more general Nintendo or otherwise new stages. If they hadn't made the stages from scratch instead of porting them, that might've been a bit better. The stage list isn't technically lacking, but it does feel lopsided. There's less than 10 new stages until the 11 from DLC. Not even 20 new stages for a game with over 80 characters does feel strange, imo. And the newcomer list alone is pretty reasonable sized. They're usually 10-20ish on average, so it doesn't feel odd.
Nester funky bowling was listed during brawl so I don’t see why it was taken away alongside Mike Jones besides not being Japanese Nintendo creation.
I would say Porky has been in a weird grey area.
Megaman has the best unique developed custom moves as well if anything they should have added Protoman as echo and use these custom moves and leave the rest.
I would also mention the removal of Mega Charizard X wasn’t a good decision and should have been brought back as an echo for Charizard with the rock smash especially the fact the he was one of the most popular mega out there and was heavily advertised and the have his model ready from smash 4.
 
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GilTheGreat19

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What Samus Hunter claims about the Devil mechhanic seems pretty logical to me; it matches well with what was shown of it in the trailer. Her description of how Kazuya's Rage works also makes sense, and the crouching thing...probably makes sense (I have almost zero experience with Tekken).

Similar for what she says about the stage; you can see the wall breaking when Kazuya KO's Falcon in the trailer.

I notice she didn't specify who the Mii costumes were beyond the fact they're from Namco (though only "some," apparently?).

Still hoping one of the "new third party collaborations" for Spirits is NEO: The World Ends With You.
So wait...

PapaGEnos talked about 6 files being listed for in between the "fathers" tourney and the recent tourney whose topic I forgot.
If the Sophia and Arthur spirits take up 2 of those slots...
We may only get 4 Mii Costumes tomorrow.

Who knows.
 
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