Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[SNEKeater]

Idk why but I'm definitely feeling the SMTV rep too, but the only problem is for me is how Sakurai would diversify him from Joker. I also feel Arle Nadja might have a chance because this pass has a theme of "pushing the limits or expectatons" per say. Min-Min & Steve are both known for their difficulty to insert in to the game. Some people say Sephiroth's sword would be too long and he's be broken. You can't have Pyra without Rex. And a Tekken charcter would be too hard to implement into Smash. I could see Arle furthering this with her magic spells and Puyo Puyo mechanics. But just about any video game character is fair game.

When it comes to timing the SMTV protag is in a very unlikely spot. In any case we would get Demi-fiend or maybe Flynn.
But I don't see how Sakurai would have trouble to made them different from Joker. Like... I think most people expected Joker to incorporate demon summoning to some extent, and he didn't.

Demi-fiend/Flynn/SMTV protag would definitely have some demon summoning shenanigans in their moveset, and probably some buff/debuff spells, which are integral to the series.

Demi-fiend would probably be less about magic and more about physical attacks, Flynn I think would be mix of physical moves and spells, while it's obviously still hard to tell what they could do with the new protag, though he has a laser sword.

Basically, I'm pretty sure a SMT rep would have at least a few demons appearing in the moveset. Pixie and Jack Frost would be a lock, and then I could see 2-3 more demons more.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

Tekken 7 Pretty Movelist

mspkvp.github.io

This is the movelist of Kazuya moves in Tekken 7, do you think they will implement all of them in smash? Its +80 different inputs. In the little teaser they showed this E3 I counted at least 30 different moves.

Being very intrigued how did they translate tekken mechanics into smash.

 

[CureParfait]

So just want to ask everyone. Final prediction on the final character and why?

It's hard to predict who it is at this point but curious to hear your reason for it as well as to hopefully spark some more debate and speculation from this.

Either a first party or Reimu. For the former I feel like the might do half first party half third party on this pass. For the latter the indie mii costumes gives me a weird hunch an indie rep might happen and think she's the most likely one.

 

[Deleted member]

I’m gonna wait until we see Kazuya’s Miis. I could get BTFO with this, but it seems like a character being a Mii is a death sentence since we got over Spring-Man, Rex & Heihachi.



Ugh, I hope it’s not the SMTV protagonist. I’m really looking forward to that game & I’m probably going to buy it day one. It looks really good.

But the final character in Smash Ultimate being someone we haven’t “meet” yet, would be a terrible way to end this game. This would be worse than Corrin since Fates was atleast out for a couple months in Japan before they were announced.

The best route for SMT is Demi-Fiend or the SMTIV protagonist but with hella SMTV Miis, spirits & music. You’re still shilling SMT but not as awfully as you could lmao. Bonus points for SMT3 remaster shilling too.

I agree, but those are probably the worst examples for Miis disconfirming characters when they all have other more prominent reasons. Heihachi’s VA, Springman’s AT, and Rex being too hot for the Switch to handle .

Honestly the SMT V protagonist is probably not happening if we believe Sakurai has figures for every character already, unless he somehow got a custom one from Atlas close to a year before the game actually launched. I think they’d be much better than Corrin or Byleth though

 

[Inferno7]

As someone who wants Dante badly in this game, he's not happening, period. If he was, it's most likely he would've been our E3 reveal, last fighter is gonna be a Sonic or RE rep going by the second chance theory which has been proven correct time and time again.

 

[Technomage]

As someone who wants Dante badly in this game, he's not happening, period. If he was, it's most likely he would've been our E3 reveal, last fighter is gonna be a Sonic or RE rep going by the second chance theory which has been proven correct time and time again.

True, but as someone who believes in the Loose Ends theory, I will still say that there could be a trend-breaking fighter (such as one who breaks the theory you and I mentioned).

 

[RileyXY1]

True, but as someone who believes in the Loose Ends theory, I will still say that there could be a trend-breaking fighter (such as one who breaks the theory you and I mentioned).

Especially considering that Byleth broke FP1's trend of being an all-third party pass.

 

[Guynamednelson]

As someone who wants Dante badly in this game, he's not happening, period. If he was, it's most likely he would've been our E3 reveal, last fighter is gonna be a Sonic or RE rep going by the second chance theory which has been proven correct time and time again.

You say that like they wouldn't have considered Sonic/RE just as E3 worthy.

 

[Inferno7]

True, but as someone who believes in the Loose Ends theory, I will still say that there could be a trend-breaking fighter (such as one who breaks the theory you and I mentioned).

It's possible since this is the last one. But at the same time I can't help but feel it could be anyone's game if that was the case, in short it would be hilariously unpredictable

You say that like they wouldn't have considered Sonic/RE just as E3 worthy.

There's bigger overlap between those two series than Tekken does with Smash. Putting the trailer in E3 easily gathered enough reactions from the FGC who loved the inclusion (I even saw some people claiming they'd buy Smash just because of Kazuya).

 

[Megadoomer]

I can see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure if the last sentence about the DLC timing is really correct. Assuming that Kazuya's development is pretty much finished by now, and assuming that the last fighter will release around september or october, this means that Sakurai can put the whole team on that single last fighter for 3-4 months (and that's assuming that development of the last fighter haven't started yet) (Yeah that's a lot of assumption). But my point is that if he want to do a more complex fighter for the last spot, now is really the time. They have nothing else to develop: no game modes, (probably) no fighter pass 3. All of his energy is now on this last fighter. If he can pull Kazuya, who he thought back in Smash 4 that Tekken would be impossible in Smash, I'm sure he can give a more complex moveset to Phoenix Wright.

I guess the difference, at least in my mind, is that with Kazuya, they can use Tekken as a reference for all of his moves, where all of Phoenix's moves and playstyle would likely have to be made from scratch. (I don't think they'd be able to copy his UMvC3 playstyle, since from what I've seen, it would lead to a lot of running away and hoping for RNG to work out - it works well in UMvC3, with smaller stages making it so Phoenix can't get too far away, and support characters to keep Phoenix players covered, but I'm not sure how well that would work in Smash, particularly in larger stages like Temple or the Great Cave Offensive)

 

[Technomage]

New topic: If Smash's last fighter were to be a sports game rep, who would it be?

 

[chocolatejr9]

New topic: If Smash's last fighter were to be a sports game rep, who would it be?

We already have Daisy.

 

[DarthEnderX]

So just want to ask everyone. Final prediction on the final character and why?

Hayabusa. The reasons why are pretty well known at this point. NES Icon, KT needs a rep, DEX's most wanted, blah blah blah.

Yeah, there's absolutely no fighting game that comes close for guest appearances.

They aren't really guest characters. "guest character" implies that the character comes from outside the continuity of the universe. As a crossover game, EVERY character is from outside the continuity. Even the Nintendo characters. The 3P characters are no more or less a part of the universe than the 1P ones are.

And when everyone is a guest character...no one is.

if Off the Hook are our last characters (as they’re a duo) we’d have our first pop stars in Smash

How dare you call Pearl's fresh hip hop stylings "pop".

It started with Splatoon so why not end with it?

The fact that this game started with a Splatoon rep sounds like it's own reason not to end with one as well.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

New topic: If Smash's last fighter were to be a sports game rep, who would it be?

Waluigi

 

[Technomage]

Hayabusa. The reasons why are pretty well known at this point. NES Icon, KT needs a rep, DEX's most wanted, blah blah blah.

Speaking of Hayabusa, I wish there was enough room for both him and Kasumi as separate characters, since Hayabusa could be part of the Ninja Gaiden universe and Kasumi could be part of the Dead Or Alive universe, adding another series that has more than one sub-series in the roster (just like Mario).

Speaking of which, if NG's series symbol would be a shuriken (like in this video), what would DOA's series symbol be?

 

[JamesDNaux]

Yeah & Assassin’s Creed is far more important than Rayman. Which helps prove my point.

Rayman literally put Ubisoft on the map, the first two games are the reason they're such a huge force in gaming, Assassin's Creed wouldn't exist without Rayman.

Assassin's Creed has become a larger series, yes, but that does not remove Rayman's significance to Ubisoft and gaming as a whole.

 

[Deleted member]

My pick is Dante - not sure if that's bias or optimism on my part, but I do have reasons for it.

I'm guessing it's going to be an adult/teen human character, since DLC tends to lean that way. (not counting veterans, there's - I assume it's because it's easier to use other characters as a base) There aren't any recent/upcoming Nintendo games with humanoid protagonists that could be promoted through that spot (there's Metroid Dread, but I'm not sure if they'd add the EMMI robots as full-fledged characters), and while they could announce something new (like a Xenoblade Chronicles X remake) and put in a character from that (they did it with a Japan Direct that showed a Xenoblade Chronicles 1 remake for the 3DS and followed it up with Shulk in Smash), I have my doubts that they'd do that.

I made a list of characters that I thought were plausible earlier, and out of those, the adult human ones were Elma, Sol Badguy, Ryu Hayabusa, Dante, Phoenix Wright, Morrigan Aensland, and maybe Ezio. (I have my doubts that they'll double-dip on third party companies that are already in this Fighters Pass, so I don't think we'll be finishing up with a Namco-Bandai, Microsoft, or Square-Enix character)

-I'm not sure if they'd have two Xenoblade characters so close together; I don't know if they'd want to risk making it feel over-exposed like Fire Emblem

-Ryu Hayabusa doesn't seem likely, given how a bunch of interviews surrounding the Ninja Gaiden collection for Switch have gone.

-Phoenix Wright would require them to make up a completely new playstyle for the character; his home series has no combat (since it's a game about lawyers, it's largely debate) and his Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 playstyle doesn't seem like it would work well in Smash. (it relies on gathering randomly-generated evidence until you get enough good evidence to enter a super mode - it doesn't seem like it would be fun to play against in Smash's larger stages, since it would turn into keep-away, and it doesn't seem like it would be fun to play, since it relies entirely on randomness for him to be useful) I could see the development team appreciating the challenge, but given how tight the timing seems to be on DLC characters, I'm not sure if they'd include him

-I'm not super familiar with Ezio; maybe they could include him, but I'm not sure how well he'd represent Ubisoft as a company

-while I could see Sakurai/the developers wanting to be the ones responsible for bringing Darkstalkers back into the public eye and possibly raising interest for a revival, and lovingly crafting a stage, spirits, etc. to pay tribute to the series' history, I have my doubts that Capcom would agree to including Morrigan over a series that they're more likely to profit off of, such as Monster Hunter, Phoenix Wright, Resident Evil, or Devil May Cry

-I could potentially see this going either way between Dante and Sol Badguy - on one hand, maybe the developers would want to cover a wider variety of genres, but on the other hand, they've had no problems with including several RPG characters back to back, so maybe they would have no issue with including two fighting game characters back-to-back

I don't see the same sort of issues with Dante - they're already working with the company that makes his games, it's an active franchise that I could see them wanting to promote, Capcom's the only returning third party company without a unique newcomer in Ultimate (though maybe they're fine with Ken and the two veterans), and his moveset writes itself. My main concern is that a bunch of DLC characters already have elements of his gameplay in their moveset ( = Rain Storm, = Round Trip, possibly with Devil Trigger, arguably with Weapon Switching), but I'm not sure if that's a plus, a minus, or something neutral. (since Dante has more than enough material to work with even without those)

This reads like mental gymnastics to justify why you think one of your most wanteds is in. Just going down an already small list knocking off contenders for reasons as flimsy as “Phoenix would require actual thought into making a moveset for him since he doesn't fight in his home series” when we've already been through this song & dance with Villager close to a decade ago.

Even Kazuya, a character who you said can just have his moves ripped from Tekken, is one we know likely had conceptual issues judging by Sakurai's comments on adapting Heihachi's movement (likely referring to Tekken's limb system) in Smash 4.

 

[Opossum]

New topic: If Smash's last fighter were to be a sports game rep, who would it be?

Sakurai heard my wishes for a second Punch-Out!! character and added either Doc Louis, Glass Joe, King Hippo, Bald Bull, or Mr. Sandman, all while fixing the series's paltry music selection.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...what would DOA's series symbol be?

Schrodinger's Cat.

 

[Lionfranky]

I blame that on the people who pushed the double dip idea. It felt very double standard-y when it was really only used to back Chief and no other character (aside from I guess Rie and Neku). That kind of prevailing logic will turn people sour, and unfortunately Chief was made into the face of it. As someone who would love to see him in Smash it sucks but it is what it is.

It's not like Chief supporters have constantly gone around and said "Only Chief is eligible for double dip!" It's just about pointing at strong hints here and there.

 

[Technomage]

On the topic of Ubisoft reps: How would other, less talked about characters would be viable? I'm talking about things like the Prince of Persia or a Far Cry character.

 

[DarthEnderX]

New topic: If Smash's last fighter were to be a sports game rep, who would it be?

Tecmo Bowl! Because reasons!

Speaking of which, if NG's series symbol would be a shuriken (like in this video), what would DOA's series symbol be?

Bewbs.

all while fixing the series's paltry music selection.

Look man...it's not Sakurai's fault that Punch-Out only has, like, 2 songs per game. No matter how many different ways it remixes them.

 

[Megadoomer]

New topic: If Smash's last fighter were to be a sports game rep, who would it be?

Kunio-kun from the River City series? That series has a surprisingly large amount of sports games. (dodgeball, hockey, basketball, soccer, track and field, and that's just the NES/Famicom games)

 

[Technomage]

Tecmo Bowl! Because reasons!

I'm not sure if TB would be eligible, since it seems to be part of the NFL franchise (and probably includes real-life athletes, too).

Bewbs.

Or maybe a silhouette of a hot chick's (or Kasumi's) body (or would that be just as not-for-good-boys-and-girls as bewbs would be?)?

 

[Opossum]

Rayman literally put Ubisoft on the map, the first two games are the reason they're such a huge force in gaming, Assassin's Creed wouldn't exist without Rayman.

Assassin's Creed has become a larger series, yes, but that does not remove Rayman's significance to Ubisoft and gaming as a whole.

On the other hand, I feel like "we wouldn't have X if Y never existed" isn't a strong point in Rayman's favor at all, considering we've gotten several Ys before their respective Xs.

Dragon Quest codified the JRPG genre, but we still got Cloud before Hero. Pac-Man gave rise to video games having actual marketable characters instead of generic cars and ships, but we got three other third party characters before getting to him. Persona wouldn't exist without Shin Megami Tensei laying a lot of the groundwork, and yet Joker is here while SMT is totally absent.

Yeah, Rayman put Ubisoft on the map, but in today's context I really don't think that matters, like it didn't with the above.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Kunio-kun from the River City series? That series has a surprisingly large amount of sports games. (dodgeball, hockey, basketball, soccer, track and field, and that's just the NES/Famicom games)

Yeeeeeeeesss...

 

[Paraster]

So just want to ask everyone. Final prediction on the final character and why?

It's hard to predict who it is at this point but curious to hear your reason for it as well as to hopefully spark some more debate and speculation from this.

Frisk or Papyrus. Admittedly, most of my points are circumstantial, but they're still something.

• Undertale is a big deal.
• With the context of the Heihachi Mii costume not deconfirming Kazuya, we now know the Sans costume is no issue (and there's a nonzero chance it was deliberately released early to mess with people--seems in-character for Sakurai and Toby Fox).
• Ignore this point if my speculation on the timing is wrong, but Toby Fox's meeting with Sakurai may have been at the exact right time to discuss an Undertale fighter being added.
• Negotiating with a single rights-holder would be simpler and quicker than a whole company--maybe this expedience is why FP2 has six fighters instead of five? Maybe Frisk/Papyrus (or any other potential fighters who come from small indie teams) was added as a bonus late in planning due to the speed and ease of adding them?
• More Undertale content, which is conspicuously missing currently (specifically an Undertale Spirit Board event).
• Regarding Frisk and Papyrus specifically: the former is the player character and the latter is a fan-favorite and effectively the co-mascot alongside Sans. Both have some neat potential for fighters (Frisk with their equipped "weapons" and ACTs and Papyrus with his bone magic that could be interpreted creatively).

 

[Cosmic77]

A grand total of 0 third-parties have been added for seemingly promotional reasons. The closest we've come is Hero, who just so happened to work as a promotional character with DQXIS due to the character being delayed and SE requesting Luminary when Sakurai had his eye on Erdrick. Everyone else got added at incredibly random times or made virtually no effort to tie in with a new release.

With that in mind, I'm not sure I expect SMT V protagonist. Shouldn't be hard to understand why Nintendo cares more about adding first-parties for promotional reasons than they are adding third-parties.

 

[cothero]

As someone who wants Dante badly in this game, he's not happening, period. If he was, it's most likely he would've been our E3 reveal, last fighter is gonna be a Sonic or RE rep going by the second chance theory which has been proven correct time and time again.

Interesting. Why do you think a Sonic or a RE rep still could happen? Why the second chance theory could fit into those two franchises?

 

[Perkilator]

So just want to ask everyone. Final prediction on the final character and why?

It's hard to predict who it is at this point but curious to hear your reason for it as well as to hopefully spark some more debate and speculation from this.

Crash

Just to break the trend of ending on a disappointment

 

[JamesDNaux]

On the other hand, I feel like "we wouldn't have X if Y never existed" isn't a strong point in Rayman's favor at all, considering we've gotten several Ys before their respective Xs.

Dragon Quest codified the JRPG genre, but we still got Cloud before Hero. Pac-Man gave rise to video games having actual marketable characters instead of generic cars and ships, but we got three other third party characters before getting to him. Persona wouldn't exist without Shin Megami Tensei laying a lot of the groundwork, and yet Joker is here while SMT is totally absent.

Yeah, Rayman put Ubisoft on the map, but in today's context I really don't think that matters, like it didn't with the above.

Wasn't the point of my post, but if you want to play ball, we've also had characters get in due to fan requests before much larger series.

Street Fighter is bigger and more relevant than Mega Man, who got in first.
Minecraft and Banjo, need I even say more?

Fans are pushing for Rayman, Ubisoft themselves are pushing for Rayman, Rayman already got content in Smash before Assassin's Creed.

None of this really matters since neither one of them are getting in.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Sidenote: Think you're meaning Gale Stab as Swordfighter's Quick Draw equalient?

But yeah, I do think that generic moves can still be interesting if they work within the moveset as a coherent whole and / or aren't encouraging a very predictable or railroaded playstyle. While I've not been keen on Swordfighter's abudance of projectiles, the projectiles themselves aren't bad ideas:

• Yeah the Chakram's kinda similar to the Boomerang / Cross, but it can be thrown in two distances unlike the Boomerang / Cross, giving it some needed utility and ways to catch opponents off guard.
• Shuriken of Light is pretty much an unchargeable version of Greninja's, but its damage scaling being based on range encourages the Swordfighter to toss it at a distance.
• Gale Strike (the Tornado) not only covers a lot of ground but also deals set knockback, encouraging the Swordfighter to follow up with aerials or even Up B.

All three do have their uses and allow the Swordfighter to play a ranged game as well, which does help the character overall (like Link, which may be Swordfighter's main inspiration). Especially since Swordfigher's swings are not as fast as say Marth's / Cloud's.

I looked at Gale Stab and typed Gale Strike. -_-

I guess the Mii Specials that I take issue with are:

• Exploding Side Kick: Falcon Punch, but without the style that makes it actually fun to use. Thaaaaaaanks...
• Onslaught and Burning Dropckick: I like both of them in concept actually, but something bothers me about their execution and I can't figure out what. I think it might be because the moves look like burst movement options but go absolutely nowhere (with the former putting you into freefall for no reason).
• Gale Stab: Derivative and redundant. Why?
• Reversal Slash: It's Mario's Cape, but it feels way worse to use.
• Laser Blaze: Foxco Lasers...Yaaaaaaaay.
• Stealth Burst: Worse Din's Fire...Yaaaaaaaaay.
• Gunner Missile: Not a bad move per-say, but if I wanted to play Samus...I would play Samus. It's really dumb that all of her Special Moves except Screw Attack are here, and this one is the only one that doesn't have an interesting mechanical difference or an archetypal convention backing it.
• Absorbing Vortex: Why is there both a reflector and a PSI-Magnet?

There are a few other moves that I just don't like, but are fine with their existence.

With that in mind, I'm not sure I expect SMT V protagonist. Shouldn't be hard to understand why Nintendo cares more about adding first-parties for promotional reasons than they are adding third-parties.

To be honest, it's probably impossible since the game is both unfinished and third party. I mean, they were only comfortable showing us a teaser when the character would have been in development.

If they were going to shill Shin Megami Tensei V, I think it would be much more feasible for them to just add Demifiend.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Am I the only one who thinks getting Dante RIGHT after Kazuya would be a bit odd?
To my knowledge they both have "devil forms", though I'm 100% aware they would fight in different manners.
Oh well.

Still open to a unique Capcom rep.

 

[Lyncario]

New topic: If Smash's last fighter were to be a sports game rep, who would it be?

Inazuma Eleven. The really funny part would be when twitter realises that it's also a jrpg.

 

[RileyXY1]

New topic: If Smash's last fighter were to be a sports game rep, who would it be?

Backyard Sports rep, definitely. It's one of my biggest pipe dreams.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

New topic: If Smash's last fighter were to be a sports game rep, who would it be?

Octane from Rocket League
take it or leave it

 

[cothero]

Am I the only one who thinks getting Dante RIGHT after Kazuya would be a bit odd?
To my knowledge they both have "devil forms", though I'm 100% aware they would fight in different manners.
Oh well.

Still open to a unique Capcom rep.

IDK man, it would definitely be cool, but i don't see two edgy characters being added in a row. But who knows?

 

[Speed Weed]

New topic: If Smash's last fighter were to be a sports game rep, who would it be?

Gotta be my guy Football Manager

 

[GilTheGreat19]

IDK man, it would definitely be cool, but i don't see two edgy characters being added in a row. But who knows?

Sakurai.
Sakurai knows.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I dread what would happen to speculation if that were to be the case. Because then every single person who said "maybe Sakurai's just lying/trolling!" would have precedent to back them up. Every single piece of new potential information would be taken by half the fanbase as a misdirect and evidence to the contrary. Sakurai says there are X characters in the game? Misdirect! A character gets a role as a boss? Gotta be a misdirect. A character gets a premium Mii Costume with a song? Dude, remember Heihachi? This could mean they're actually in!

Like I'm all for less stuff disconfirming but an explanation like that would just turn everything into a debate and nobody would agree with anyone on anything. If every piece of evidence is suspect there isn't really a case to be made for any side.

Yeah, that's literally the only thing I could say negatively about Tekken getting in now. I don't like the idea of a precedent set that allows people to basically ignore different realities in front of them. We've been through enough of this stuff with like "Ridley in Smash 4" or "Only a few characters left in Ultimate" for base game where these were fairly obvious truths that people absolutely clung to as misdirection. And like, it's already bad enough for people to do so with the limited number of examples we have with Sakurai mostly being straightforward and specifically NOT misdirecting people for long periods of time. But I do think this whole situation with Heihachi's Mii Costume is super weird in general and I don't think it'll ever be addressed either lol.

Either way, Sakurai seems to have some sort of idea which characters are more of a clone than others, hence why Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, and Lucina got their own little section in Smash 4. Other characters like Toon Link, Ganondorf, and Falco remained with the rest of their franchise's characters. That tells me that the term "semi-clone" means something to Sakurai, even if he's never been vocal about it.

I don't know what the community considers Mythra to be, but I don't see why she wouldn't meet the criteria to be a semi-clone. Three of her specials are completely unique, and her speed (obviously), weight, and damage output are also different from Pyra.

I think Pyra/Mythra are so fundamentally tied together that trying to separate them isn't super helpful. They are much more clearly designed around the switching mechanic than we've seen in the past because of how similar they are and how much they cover for one another weaknesses without being completely different characters like we've seen with Pokemon Trainer, Zelda/Shiek, and Samus/Zero Suit Samus. Like Mythra doesn't really super work well IMO by herself, nor does Pyra even if you can technically just play as one the whole game.

I think that actually makes them more interesting as a playable character overall, and lets Sakurai do something pretty unique and neat in sort of getting another character in, but I do think they're fundamentally linked in such a way that it feels odd to separate them fully.

Then...why not have all that in the base game in the first place?

It's just the law of equivalent exchange. If you replace Bandanna Dee with Piranha Plant, that's all you can do. You can make additional development time suddenly exist to create a stage, spirits, Kirby remixes, etc. You only get one character for one character, you'd have to swap Bandanna Dee in for a Challenger Pack to get all of the modern Kirby content with him because development time has to be equal for any "theoretical trades". That's why people can't like say "Well I'd trade Chrom for Isaac" or whatever because the development time there isn't equal in terms of an Echo to a fully unique character.