Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Houndstooth]

Sometimes, it is still hard to believe that Master Chief has a chance in Smash. It's nice to be able to see actual discussions about the face of Xbox being in Smash. Pretty cool times we are in when it comes to speculation.

Steve did take time to get in, but the Banjo deal seriously seemed to be a "Hey, Phil, can we have him?" "Sure!" I know Chief would be much different, but, honestly, I'm not sure how we should gauge that when it comes to Microsoft and Nintendo.

All this talk between the two companies makes me fall back onto a "Game Pass Lite" type subscription coming to the Switch. Cheaper than regular Game Pass, but only has Microsoft First Party games included in it. Would keep Switch owners buying those 3rd Party games, yet still have the ability to play Microsoft games on the console.

Chief in Smash was such an unfathomable thing a few years(actually, possibly even just a few months) ago. Now he is one of the ones everyone is predicting. Crazy cool.

 

[Mapusaurus]

How is everyone doing today?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wait, what? I'm talking purely about Xbox. Not Smash.

People who strongly dislike the possibility of certain characters always downplay them, in this case it means pretending Master Chief isn't that big of a deal to Xbox to justify why someone doesn't like him despite Halo putting the Xbox on the map to begin with

 

[SharkLord]

Wait, what? I'm talking purely about Xbox. Not Smash.

Your question was how Master Chief wasn't the mascot for the Xbox. That's why; People are pushing back against him and trying to downplay any pros he has in his favor. That includes mascot status, so that's an easy target to remove and make him seem smaller.

 

[Houndstooth]

People who strongly dislike the possibility of certain characters always downplay them, in this case it means pretending Master Chief isn't that big of a deal to Xbox to justify why someone doesn't like him despite Halo putting the Xbox on the map to begin with

Yeah, I am surprised to see people saying that Master Chief isn't Xbox's mascot. Like, he always has been? I never even knew this was a thing until reading over some posts recently.

Take the 20 year celebration that Xbox is doing now. It is literally Chief on the front with Halo everywhere.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Sometimes, it is still hard to believe that Master Chief has a chance in Smash. It's nice to be able to see actual discussions about the face of Xbox being in Smash. Pretty cool times we are in when it comes to speculation.

Steve did take time to get in, but the Banjo deal seriously seemed to be a "Hey, Phil, can we have him?" "Sure!" I know Chief would be much different, but, honestly, I'm not sure how we should gauge that when it comes to Microsoft and Nintendo.

All this talk between the two companies makes me fall back onto a "Game Pass Lite" type subscription coming to the Switch. Cheaper than regular Game Pass, but only has Microsoft First Party games included in it. Would keep Switch owners buying those 3rd Party games, yet still have the ability to play Microsoft games on the console.

Chief in Smash was such an unfathomable thing a few years(actually, possibly even just a few months) ago. Now he is one of the ones everyone is predicting. Crazy cool.

Back in the Smash 4 days, the idea was actively mocked and any attempt at a Master Chief support thread would be shut down as he's not Nintendo enough. That's something that's changed for the best if you ask me

 

[Louie G.]

Back in the Smash 4 days, the idea was actively mocked and any attempt at a Master Chief support thread would be shut down as he's not Nintendo enough. That's something that's changed for the best if you ask me

Looking at the third parties people actually gave the time of day in Smash 4 compared to now is such a surreal time capsule where “Nintendo connection” was the be all end all. I kinda miss when some of those picks felt more viable (Rayman, Layton) but the floor being opened to just about anyone is absolutely a net positive.

 

[SNEKeater]

I’d agree with the language barrier being a potential issue for a character this late in the game had Microsoft not already gotten two characters and been on record saying the process was very smooth. Microsoft seems like the exception to this concern in many ways, it helps to have your foot in the door and I’d imagine it’s even easier the third time.

My guess is that Microsoft is very open and easy to work with Nintendo, so even if Sakurai isn't that familiar to work with western companies, Microsoft's interest and I assume good will makes up for that barrier. Like, maybe they're the ones pushing for these ideas, Nintendo is surprised to such proposals, and gives them the OK.

Another strong possibility IMO is that Nintendo is obviously aware that working with Microsoft, which is still technically a hardware competitor, is a big opportunity. And to be fair, that's true. So far, Nintendo has been the only one to get something out of this "relationship". Banjo and Steve in Smash, the Ori games on Switch... Obviously, it doesn't mean Microsoft doesn't gain anything from this, they're obviously playing a different game now in comparison to a few years ago, so their current strategy is different. Though the difference here is that their consumers are the ones that aren't really gaining anything from this.

Said strategy works well for Nintendo, and as long as that's the case I guess we will still see at least a few more things from Microsoft on the Switch.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Smash never is as anti-climactic as people say it is

It's kind of hard to really describe how different later reveals can be compared to earlier ones. You could say they're "less hype", but the reaction to Bayonetta=/=the reaction to Corrin, and even if Pyra/Mythra is the start of FP2's decline, they've still gotten plenty of fanart from their inclusion. I think "lower budget" is the better way to describe them, but there's still things like Byleth's Mii costume wave adding Ubisoft costumes that would require more licensing fees.

 

[Brother AJ]

But we already got all the mascots of the major companies that already got a character in Smash, except Microsoft.

And I'm willing to die on the hill that, yes, Master Chief is the mascot of Microsoft. Not Steve or Banjo.

I mean, MC is really the mascot of the X-Box alone. I wouldn't say Microsoft as a whole. Steve fits that mold better IMHO (although I still want to see MC).

 

[Deleted member]

I mean, MC is really the mascot of the X-Box alone. I wouldn't say Microsoft as a whole. Steve fits that mold better IMHO (although I still want to see MC).

Steve was brought in later though. MC kinda seemed like the defacto mascot for the 360 as well thanks to 3 and Reach which were both massively popular. They gained a few more IPs that helped keep them afloat by then, but MC was still very prominent.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The mascot of Microsoft as a whole is Bill Gates.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I mean let’s be honest, there’s one Microsoft mascot and it’s not MC or Steve.

 

[PacificFun]

People who strongly dislike the possibility of certain characters always downplay them, in this case it means pretending Master Chief isn't that big of a deal to Xbox to justify why someone doesn't like him despite Halo putting the Xbox on the map to begin with

Ohhhh, okay.

 

[Louie G.]

Another strong possibility IMO is that Nintendo is obviously aware that working with Microsoft, which is still technically a hardware competitor, is a big opportunity.

This is one of the things I’ve been leaning on too, this idea that Nintendo has an “in” with one of the biggest companies in gaming who also happen to own some of the biggest video game characters and IPs ever. It’s an opportunity that they may want to take full advantage of in the moment.

And as I’ve said a few times over, Minecraft and Halo are so different in every way and cater to such different people. If presented with the chance to incorporate two of the biggest gaming franchises of the last twenty years to Smash... why not? It just feels like a great opportunity for everyone involved.

 

[Dinoman96]

Looking at the third parties people actually gave the time of day in Smash 4 compared to now is such a surreal time capsule where “Nintendo connection” was the be all end all. I kinda miss when some of those picks felt more viable (Rayman, Layton) but the floor being opened to just about anyone is absolutely a net positive.

Good time to post this again

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I think the question we should be answering is either did Microsoft hold off Nintendo from getting Steve unless Banjo & Kazooie and Master Chief were in Smash? If not, why would Nintendo want to include Master Chief in Smash?

We know that Nintendo had their sights on Steve since 2015, there was fan outcry for Banjo & Kazooie and Phil Spencer addressed that by adding them to the Steve deal and most likely held Steve off until Nintendo addressed Banjo & Kazooie, this would explain why they appeared before Steve. I think as long as Nintendo has Steve they're good on Microsoft reps but if Master Chief does appear in this pass then we'd probably know for sure that Nintendo wanted him since he would appear after Steve.

 

[PeridotGX]

Sakurai: It's time to add the most iconic Microsoft rep. Everyone, I'm proud to present... The Internet Explorer logo!

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

I think the question we should be answering is either did Microsoft hold off Nintendo from getting Steve unless Banjo & Kazooie and Master Chief were in Smash? If not, why would Nintendo want to include Master Chief in Smash?

We know that Nintendo had their sights on Steve since 2015, there was fan outcry for Banjo & Kazooie and Phil Spencer addressed that by adding them to the Steve deal and most likely held Steve off until Nintendo addressed Banjo & Kazooie, this would explain why they appeared before Steve. I think as long as Nintendo has Steve they're good on Microsoft reps but if Master Chief does appear in this pass then we'd probably know for sure that Nintendo wanted him since he would appear after Steve.

That's the official words that they started negotiations for Steve, and only Steve, since 2015.
I doubt the person that actually said that would have revealed "It's crazy, we were in talks with Nintendo since 2015 to include Steve, Banjo-Kazooie and Master Chief!". After Steve and Banjo finally becoming playable, you would spoil the surprise, or at least make people assume Master Chief did get through the talks with Nintendo.

 

[Louie G.]

I think the question we should be answering is either did Microsoft hold off Nintendo from getting Steve unless Banjo & Kazooie and Master Chief were in Smash? If not, why would Nintendo want to include Master Chief in Smash?

I don’t think this makes a whole lot of sense. If anything it would be more like “did Microsoft only allow Banjo if they could get Steve / Chief”, which is a theory I don’t particularly buy either but makes more sense than dangling Steve overhead to get Banjo in Smash.

I think coming at it this way is reductive. Why would Nintendo want Master Chief in Smash? Because he’s a massive gaming icon and Halo is a beloved series, of course. There doesn’t need to be an ulterior motive relative to Banjo or Steve. And if there was, with the potential of MCC on Switch there’s good incentive for them both - not like Master Chief being in Smash wouldn’t be an amazing financial and PR success for Nintendo in and of itself.

Also I should mention that five years of “talks” really could mean anything. Remember that Bethesda interview that mentioned “talks” about Doomguy that never went anywhere. We don’t know what those talks entailed from the start, or who initiated them, just that they happened in some capacity.

Seeing how Sakurai was apparently skeptical of Steve when approached by Nintendo with the idea for DLC I can’t imagine it would have consistently been on the forefront of his mind for that long. It does seem plausible that a stage may have been in the cards early on though.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

The mascot of Microsoft as a whole is Bill Gates.

He got divorced cause Melinda wouldn't let him join Smash.

 

[N3ON]

I don't think Steve's road to inclusion should be used as any kind of precedent given how atypical it was. I really don't think the norm is for characters to endure such a protracted period of negotiation, and part of the reason for the length seems to be that Sakurai initially turned the character down.

The thing to glean from the situation is that Nintendo and Microsoft have existing lines of communication for Smash collaboration (though this was demonstrated beforehand with Banjo), and that Sakurai changes his mind, or is sometimes persuaded to (which we already knew).

People focus on the five-year aspect too much. It wasn't five years of active development, anyway. It was five years from first talks to final release. There could've been, and probably was, a long period where there was no progression whatsoever, and eventually they returned to the idea.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Sup, y'all?

Just gonna digress from this discussion a bit and say this:

It'd be neat if different consoles got first-party representation of their own in Smash, besides SEGA's Genesis and SNK Neo Geo consoles, of course.

Xbox - Master Chief (I say Xbox because though Banjo & Kazooie and Steve are both MS properties at the time of this message, they were bought)
Sony - Kratos
Mobile - Red (would be cool)
PC - Let's do.. Gordon Freeman perhaps (Steve is technically our PC rep as Minecraft started on the PC)

 

[RGFS]

It's kind of hard to really describe how different later reveals can be compared to earlier ones. You could say they're "less hype", but the reaction to Bayonetta=/=the reaction to Corrin, and even if Pyra/Mythra is the start of FP2's decline, they've still gotten plenty of fanart from their inclusion. I think "lower budget" is the better way to describe them, but there's still things like Byleth's Mii costume wave adding Ubisoft costumes that would require more licensing fees.

Money really isn't an issue for Nintendo though. If they need or want a character, they can get them. They didn't add Terry, Byleth, Min Min, or Pyra/Mythra because they were cheaper. They added them because they have their own many reasons that made them deserving of a Smash inclusion. The fact that they probably cost less doesn't mean much to the richest company in Japan. Especially since they're still paying the same development team to do every character.

The only reason Nintendo cut corners sometimes with songs, voice acting, or anything else is usually either because of time constraints or because they wouldn't end up profiting from the Pass or it isn't worth the trouble. Even with that said we still get the fighter even in the seemingly most stingy situations. Fair negotiations for a character itself would basically always turn a profit unless the third-party company truly doesn't want to negotiate for a fair exchange which would be incredibly unlikely for most characters.

On the topic of Master Chief and budget... I wonder if someone like Gordon Freeman would even need much negotiation. Part of me feels they would ask Valve and they'd be totally fine with it immediately and barely have any input on the whole thing. When it comes to crossovers, Valve has been chucked into everything from Lego Dimensions, to Fall Guys, to Final Fantasy XV and they always seem so nonchalant about business dealings.

Sup, y'all?

Just gonna digress from this discussion a bit and say this:

It'd be neat if different consoles got first-party representation of their own in Smash, besides SEGA's Genesis and SNK Neo Geo consoles, of course.

Xbox - Master Chief (I say Xbox because though Banjo & Kazooie and Steve are both MS properties at the time of this message, they were bought)
Sony - Kratos
Mobile - Red (would be cool)
PC - Let's do.. Gordon Freeman perhaps (Steve is technically our PC rep as Minecraft started on the PC)

Steve's more of a multiplatform icon. Gordon Freeman definitely feels like the PC character as he was the catalyst for Steam, Portal, TF2, Counter-Strike, Gmod, etc.

 

[Technomage]

It's kind of hard to really describe how different later reveals can be compared to earlier ones. You could say they're "less hype", but the reaction to Bayonetta=/=the reaction to Corrin, and even if Pyra/Mythra is the start of FP2's decline, they've still gotten plenty of fanart from their inclusion. I think "lower budget" is the better way to describe them, but there's still things like Byleth's Mii costume wave adding Ubisoft costumes that would require more licensing fees.

Your mention of Mii costumes, in combination with the Master Chief discussion, has inspired me to ask this question: If Chief were to enter the roster, what Mii costumes should his pack come with?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I wonder if someone like Gordon Freeman would even need much negotiation

There were plans for a Nintendo exclusive Half Life game iirc, Valve ended up deciding to scrap it as they felt that the first new installment in years being an exclusive would alienate fans

 

[GilTheGreat19]

On the topic of Master Chief and budget... I wonder if someone like Gordon Freeman would even need much negotiation. Part of me feels they would ask Valve and they'd be totally fine with it immediately and barely have any input on the whole thing. When it comes to crossovers, Valve has been chucked into everything from Lego Dimensions, to Fall Guys, to Final Fantasy XV and they always seem so nonchalant about business dealings.

I agree! A Valve rep is quite possible imo. Let's not forget though:
I think these 3 crossovers you mentioned are significant because these games have CONSOLE appearances. Valve's NORMALLY known for associating with PC!



Actually, y'all should know something:
I personally think ANYONE can happen.
More Nintendo characters, characters from Ubisoft, Activison|Blizzard, EA, Riot, Rockstar, Sony, Bethesda, etc.
But I digress.

 

[Technomage]

Money really isn't an issue for Nintendo though. If they need or want a character, they can get them. They didn't add Terry, Byleth, Min Min, or Pyra/Mythra because they were cheaper. They added them because they have their own many reasons that made them deserving of a Smash inclusion. The fact that they probably cost less doesn't mean much to the richest company in Japan. Especially since they're still paying the same development team to do every character.

Plus, even though Chief would cost extra money, his hypothetical DLC pack would make extra money, too. Therefore, Ninty might see that as worth the extra spending.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Y'know, I know nothing about .hack beyond that it's good apparantly, anyone up for a sales pitch? Especially if it's about Rebirth, Reminisce, and Redemption as I can get those on Steam
I really don't buy language barriers as a legit argument when we've already had 2 characters from a Western owned company and surprise surprise, Chief's from the same one. Is there a relatively recent Sakurai quote about this because it sounds more like a "It sounds like a bit more work than for other characters so I'd rather go for someone else" than a major issue

I don't actually know that much about .hack, so I might not be the best person to try and sell you on the idea. From what I know, it's one of those "trapped in an MMO" type of stories that SAO made popular. It's apparently really good, and a lot of people want more from it, namely some Switch ports because of course. Unfortunately, the devs seem reluctant to do said ports due to the series being primarily known for being on Playstation, and apparently having some sort of loyalty(?) to them (it's been awhile since I saw that video, so I could be remembering it wrong). Granted, that didn't stop NIS from making Disgaea 6 Switch-exclusive outside Japan, but that's probably a different situation.

Maybe try reading the thread I linked. That might do a better job than I just did...

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Actually I barely saw this series pop up here on SmashBoards so I hope y'all don't mind me asking this:

Activision, right?
Crash or Spyro:
Let's say either of them gets in FP2. Do you think Skylanders content could hypothetically show up then?

 

[Technomage]

Actually I barely saw this series pop up here on SmashBoards so I hope y'all don't mind me asking this:

Activision, right?
Crash or Spyro:
Let's say either of them gets in FP2. Do you think Skylanders content could hypothetically show up then?

Maybe, but that'd be more likely if Spyro is chosen.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

It's just hard to make any sort of theory on how the DLC will end when we only have on game to make a comparison.
Especially when, apparently, the DLC for Smash 4 wasn't completely planned from the start if I recall correctly.
Ultimate DLC definitely was planned for far longer than Smash 4's.

 

[Louie G.]

Crash or Spyro:
Let's say either of them gets in FP2. Do you think Skylanders content could hypothetically show up then?

Only if by some miracle Spyro got in over Crash, but it feels like Activision is more or less done with the Skylanders brand and I think they’d rather focus on the classic titles in general.

 

[N3ON]

Money really isn't an issue for Nintendo though. If they need or want a character, they can get them. They didn't add Terry, Byleth, Min Min, or Pyra/Mythra because they were cheaper. They added them because they have their own many reasons that made them deserving of a Smash inclusion. The fact that they probably cost less doesn't mean much to the richest company in Japan. Especially since they're still paying the same development team to do every character.

The only reason Nintendo cut corners sometimes with songs, voice acting, or anything else is usually either because of time constraints or because they wouldn't end up profiting from the Pass or it isn't worth the trouble. Even with that said we still get the fighter even in the seemingly most stingy situations. Fair negotiations for a character itself would basically always turn a profit unless the third-party company truly doesn't want to negotiate for a fair exchange which would be incredibly unlikely for most characters.

On the topic of Master Chief and budget... I wonder if someone like Gordon Freeman would even need much negotiation. Part of me feels they would ask Valve and they'd be totally fine with it immediately and barely have any input on the whole thing. When it comes to crossovers, Valve has been chucked into everything from Lego Dimensions, to Fall Guys, to Final Fantasy XV and they always seem so nonchalant about business dealings.

I actually do think a part of the reason they added Terry was because he was cheaper. And it is possible they offset the costs of third-party DLC with first-party DLC. Nintendo is a very wealthy company, but it doesn't mean the budget they allocate for DLC is limitless. You could especially see as much last time, when DLC trailers didn't utilize CGI and Ryu and Cloud came with nearly the bare minimum. I think it's entirely possible that's what's kept Sora out. And Nintendo couldn't reacquire Snake last time. Maybe it was due to Konami ****ery, or maybe it was just because without Kojima pushing for it, they were asking for more.

I think they've afforded more towards DLC this time on the back of its previous success (and planned it as part of the budget from the outset), but that doesn't mean Nintendo cut Sakurai a blank cheque, either. We can only guess as to who costs what, but something like a pass full of Sephiroths wouldn't be tenable, cost-wise.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Only if by some miracle Spyro got in over Crash, but it feels like Activision is more or less done with the Skylanders brand and I think they’d rather focus on the classic titles in general.

I'll just reply to you and to Technomage here: That's fair. Especially because Spyro made majors appearances in the former half of the series.
I'd personally say either way it's possible because Crash made a guest appearance in the most recent Skylanders game, being 2016's Imaginators. Gill Grunt being playable or something would make the kid in me incredibly happy, but I'll take spirits too, haha.

 

[RGFS]

There were plans for a Nintendo exclusive Half Life game iirc, Valve ended up deciding to scrap it as they felt that the first new installment in years being an exclusive would alienate fans

I'm hoping with Gabe Newell alluding to returning to console games we do see Half-Life 1 and 2 come to Nintendo Switch. I really enjoyed Duke Nukem 3D on the Switch and I feel Half-Life and Portal games would be pretty fun to have too.

The only Half-Life universe things on Nintendo right now are Portal 2 Levels in Lego Dimensions for Wii U, Bridge Constructor Portal for Switch, and Half-Life and Portal skins for Fall Guys on Switch. I wonder if Sakurai still considers Nintendo association like that enough or would held off ports be something that opened the door for some Smash appearance?

I agree! A Valve rep is quite possible imo. Let's not forget though:
I think these 3 crossovers you mentioned are significant because these games have CONSOLE appearances. Valve's NORMALLY known for associating with PC!



Actually, y'all should know something:
I personally think ANYONE can happen.
More Nintendo characters, characters from Ubisoft, Activison|Blizzard, EA, Riot, Rockstar, Sony, Bethesda, etc.
But I digress.

I think the Final Fantasy thing was a Steam exclusive though. Then again Origin had some Sims stuff so it seems to have been more of a formality there. However, Lego Dimensions doesn't even have any PC port yet Portal 2 is a decently big part of the whole package and takes over the ending credits. It was also the first video game dimension they ever added from what I saw.

I'm just happy to see Rockstar being added to your list :D.
I really hope when everything's done that all of them get at least one thing in Smash, even if it's not that big of a thing like a spirit.

 

[Schnee117]

Your mention of Mii costumes, in combination with the Master Chief discussion, has inspired me to ask this question: If Chief were to enter the roster, what Mii costumes should his pack come with?

Arbiter swordfighter
Tartarus swordfighter
Guilty Spark head piece
Marcus Fenix gunner
General RAAM swordfighter
Fulgore brawler (Type-03 music pls)

 

[Guynamednelson]

I agree! A Valve rep is quite possible imo. Let's not forget though:
I think these 3 crossovers you mentioned are significant because these games have CONSOLE appearances. Valve's NORMALLY known for associating with PC!

Isn't the Half-Life content in Final Fantasy XV exclusive to the Steam version or did it eventually get ported to the PS4?

The only Half-Life universe things on Nintendo right now are Portal 2 Levels in Lego Dimensions for Wii U, Bridge Constructor Portal for Switch, and Half-Life and Portal skins for Fall Guys on Switch.

There's also a Portal table in Pinball FX3.

 

[Dinoman96]

Mii gunner outfits of Locke, Rookie and Noble Six would be cool.

But I suspect that MC would probably just come with a grab bag of unrelated IPs, similar to Banjo.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Then again Origin had some Sims stuff so it seems to have been more of a formality there.

Funny you mention this, RGFS : EA TECHNICALLY has Smash content:

"Maxis is an American video game developer and a division of Electronic Arts. The studio was founded in 1987 by Will Wright and Jeff Braun, and acquired by EA in 1997. Maxis is best known for its simulation games, including the SimCity The Sims, and Spore." - SmashWiki
^^^Dr. Wright's an AT. He originated on the SNES.


Also, mind you that Sakurai personally stated at one point that he played and love both Halo 2 and Half-Life 2.