Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[PacificFun]

The super similar plots of DS and Smash make the lack of Dark Souls spirits a little more baffling. Spirits are referenced in Lifelight as "souls". Characters in Dark Souls have tangible "souls", it's one of the main gameplay mechanics. Why not just put in the "Souls" of the DS cast in as spirits? It would actually make canonical sense with the source material

I wouldn't think about the whole "spirits" thing too hard. All of the Smash characters are action figures at the end of the day.

 

[ForsakenM]

Mate I literally said that in my last post.

I missed that somehow, my bad.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I mean, there was a TON of SNK games dumped onto the Switch's E-Shop early on.


Truth be told, which is something that Max has speculated on, it could very well have been a sort of "You scratch our back, we'll scratch yours" kinda deal.

To be honest, I've been looking for other companies where this can apply. That's what lead to me speculating on a Disgaea rep, for example.

 

[Shroob]

I missed that somehow, my bad.

Regardless though, the thing we have to keep in mind is something that Sakurai's said since day 1, in that he isn't picking the DLC, Nintendo is.

What this means is entirely nebulous. It could be as simple as his Steve explanation, where some exec approached him and told him to do it, but according to the man himself, he's not picking the DLC, so even if he has had nostalgic experiences with said IPs, those probably don't mean a whole lot if they really are being picked by people other than himself.

 

[CannonStreak]

Am I the only one who thinks a third Season Pass is kinda pointless, considering how long the DLC thing has gone and how long we have waited between characters, and the whole DLC thing and desire for it dying down?

 

[Technomage]

Am I the only one who thinks a third Season Pass is kinda pointless, considering how long the DLC thing has gone and how long we have waited between characters, and the whole DLC thing and desire for it dying down?

Yeah, Smash's DLC has gone on plenty long; I think it'd be okay to end it after FP2, barring a few more spirit events and balance patches.

 

[N3ON]

Any character we will get, literally any one, people will justify. Not saying the justifications are bad or unfounded, but if you single out a character, someone will contend it.

I remember saying Terry was the "least big" third-party on the roster (Bayo perhaps notwithstanding, can't remember), and someone argued the point. They suggested Joker, and someone else argued that point. I think someone suggested Banjo, and someone else argued that point.

Well, someone is going to have to be the "least big". But, especially on this site, that kind of thing is never going to be settled.

I mean, there was a TON of SNK games dumped onto the Switch's E-Shop early on.


Truth be told, which is something that Max has speculated on, it could very well have been a sort of "You scratch our back, we'll scratch yours" kinda deal.

Max also thinks characters still need to be relevant to Nintendo, and gets confused when they aren't. That's why he tied Terry's inclusion to those re-releases, because it was basically all FF/KoF had done recently in the way of Nintendo. But that's a faulty premise, so the conclusions are going to spiral from there.

A ton of old games have been re-released on Nintendo systems. I really don't think old, mostly niche SNK games re-released by Hamster is the kind of thing Nintendo had to go courting for, nor do I think they would see it as any kind of leverage. I mean big, recent third-party games don't end up affecting the roster.

I would imagine a huge reason they landed on Terry is because SNK probably charged them all of five dollars to use everything. It was undoubtably a very good deal for both parties, cost-wise for one, and exposure for the other. It wouldn't be the only reason, but it was probably not insignificant.

 

[Technomage]

Any character we will get, literally any one, people will justify. Not saying the justifications are bad or unfounded, but if you single out a character, someone will contend it.

I remember saying Terry was the "least big" third-party on the roster (Bayo perhaps notwithstanding, can't remember), and someone argued the point. They suggested Joker, and someone else argued that point. I think someone suggested Banjo, and someone else argued that point.

Well, someone is going to have to be the "least big". But, especially on this site, that kind of thing is never going to be settled.

Even if it doesn't get settled, I'd totally see the majority of people agree on Byleth being the least big.

 

[N3ON]

Even if it doesn't get settled, I'd totally see the majority of people agree on Byleth being the least big.

That's why I qualified it with "third-party".

 

[Technomage]

That's why I qualified it with "third-party".

Oh, I see. Then I guess I'd agree with you on Terry.

 

[Shroob]

Am I the only one who thinks a third Season Pass is kinda pointless, considering how long the DLC thing has gone and how long we have waited between characters, and the whole DLC thing and desire for it dying down?

My desire for a 3rd wave has been dead for quite awhile.


Wave 1 was fun, because everything was rapid fire, we had a new character every 2-3 months and the whole wave was done in a year, including Plant.

Wave 2 has been dragged out for two years now, which makes sense, but if they close shop after FP11, I'm more than content. My own grievances with Ultimate won't be settled via DLC updates at this point, so I'd be good with this being the end.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think its also entirely possible that while Nintendo chose the DLC, Terry may have been one where they may have really heeded Sakurai's preferred choice, at least for one character. Between Joker, Hero, and Banjo they could have concluded that the first pass was largely sold so indulging a more personal selection of his before the first party promotional pick in Byleth was doable.

 

[RGFS]

Regardless though, the thing we have to keep in mind is something that Sakurai's said since day 1, in that he isn't picking the DLC, Nintendo is.

What this means is entirely nebulous. It could be as simple as his Steve explanation, where some exec approached him and told him to do it, but according to the man himself, he's not picking the DLC, so even if he has had nostalgic experiences with said IPs, those probably don't mean a whole lot if they really are being picked by people other than himself.

Yeah... I think the "Nintendo is picking this time" thing Sakurai keeps reiterating feels totally bogus to me, why did he even lose control of choosing to begin with?? He probably just says it for people not to bother him about choosing a specific character or to deflect if someone doesn't like the characters chosen. Good for him. I think that's perfectly fine to do if he just doesn't want to be bothered by people.

Nintendo is a whole company, not a person, it really feels like deflection. We have to assume the execs are picking Joker, Terry Bogard, and Pyra/Mythra?? The last one might make more sense as a Nintendo pick, but Xenoblade 2 was also out of physical print for a while now so it doesn't even feel like something they would be mainly wanting to pick as promotion or something. At most, I think Sakurai is still mainly at the helm and sometimes Nintendo comes in to beg for characters like Steve. Also, isn't it weird basically all of the DLC has been personally something Sakurai is very fond of especially during the First Fighters Pass when he said so out loud?? The whole list thing some have said happens is just speculation, he has stated he does get the final say on characters though.

I'm not just tinfoil speculating here either about Sakurai actually choosing. One of the things that Reggie said all the way back in the Joker reveal caught my attention. Either Reggie had no actual clue about the Smash decision-making during DLC or he accidentally slipped up.

“It’s emblematic of the approach that Mr. Sakurai and the team are taking with the DLC. He wants characters that are unique, different, to bring them into the Smash Bros. environment. So it’s going to be tremendously exciting.”
“Mr. Sakurai, he’s not only a student of Nintendo franchises, and obviously he’s had his hand in a few, but he’s a student of video games from a total perspective. And so he’s been the driver in really thinking about what type of character coming into Super Smash Bros. Ultimate would bring just a whole different level of fun and enjoyment for the player. That’s been the approach. That’s the thinking.”

Again, either this was totally wrong and Reggie had no idea what he was saying, and for some reason and Nintendo execs decided to take away some control from Sakurai in terms of choosing the DLC fighters, or Reggie accidentally gave away that Sakurai is still mainly in charge of the fighters chosen. Maybe there's more nuance than what Sakurai lets on but saying Nintendo is mainly picking now is just easier to explain??

Either way, whoever is actually choosing is doing a great job IMO. This isn't an attack on Nintendo or Sakurai at all, just something interesting I've picked up on which could actually just be wrong.

 

[Shroob]

Yeah... I think the "Nintendo is picking this time" thing Sakurai keeps reiterating feels totally bogus to me, why did he even lose control of choosing to begin with?? He probably just says it for people not to bother him about choosing a specific character or to deflect if someone doesn't like the characters chosen. Good for him. I think that's perfectly fine to do if he just doesn't want to be bothered by people.

Nintendo is a whole company, not a person, it really feels like deflection. We have to assume the execs are picking Joker, Terry Bogard, and Pyra/Mythra?? The last one might make more sense as a Nintendo pick, but Xenoblade 2 was also out of physical print for a while now so it doesn't even feel like something they would be mainly wanting to pick as promotion or something. At most, I think Sakurai is still mainly at the helm and sometimes Nintendo comes in to beg for characters like Steve. Also, isn't it weird basically all of the DLC has been personally something Sakurai is very fond of especially during the First Fighters Pass when he said so out loud?? The whole list thing some have said happens is just speculation, he has stated he does get the final say on characters though.

I'm not just tinfoil speculating here either about Sakurai actually choosing. One of the things that Reggie said all the way back in the Joker reveal caught my attention. Either Reggie had no actual clue about the Smash decision-making during DLC or he accidentally slipped up.
https://nintendoeverything.com/regg...f-dlc-approach-quiet-on-persona-5-for-switch/
Again, either this was totally wrong and Reggie had no idea what he was saying, and for some reason and Nintendo execs decided to take away some control from Sakurai in terms of choosing the DLC fighters, or Reggie accidentally gave away that Sakurai is still mainly in charge of the fighters chosen. Maybe there's more nuance than what Sakurai lets on but saying Nintendo is mainly picking now is just easier to explain??

Either way, whoever is actually choosing is doing a great job IMO. This isn't an attack on Nintendo or Sakurai at all, just something interesting I've picked up on which could actually just be wrong.

But on the flipside, we have zero proof that this is what's actually happening. Circumstantial evidence, sure, but no body, no crime.

Sakurai does have say on the DLC, he has said he has the power to turn down suggestions, as alluded to, albeit somewhat jokingly, in the Steve presentation, but I'd personally take the man on his word for this, IMO at least.

 

[N3ON]

I've said before that I think Sakurai is more involved in the DLC selection process than he's copped to, and that Nintendo is more involved in the base game selection process than we were lead to think in the past. I think both are a collaborative process far past whether something is simply feasible, and what really changes between them is just who takes the lead.

 

[SharkLord]

But on the flipside, we have zero proof that this is what's actually happening. Circumstantial evidence, sure, but no body, no crime.

Sakurai does have say on the DLC, he has said he has the power to turn down suggestions, as alluded to, albeit somewhat jokingly, in the Steve presentation, but I'd personally take the man on his word for this, IMO at least.

Didn't he at least say he was choosing from a list back with Joker's announcement? I can't seem to find the tweet, but I know he said that. At the very least, we can conclude Nintendo's always had a hand in the decisions of SSBU's DLC cycle.

 

[SNEKeater]

I'd say Bayonetta is "smaller" than Terry. Nowadays that's not quite the case but overall, if we take history and legacy, I don't think there's much contest to be honest. Not trying to say "older = more legacy", but Terry isn't a random character either.

Joker is the same case, only that his series has been around for a longer time than Bayonetta, which only has 2 (very acclaimed) games. And if you wanna count SMT into the mix, which I wouldn't, then there's no discussion. So he's more debatable, I'd say.

Then, I'd personally put Terry above Banjo as well for similar reasons, the difference is that Banjo was a significant part of the N64 era and naturally, considering Smash Bros. is a Nintendo game, that means quite a lot for people who grew up with Nintendo. Which to be honest isn't probably my case, my first Nintendo console was the GBA and I only played 2 or 3 games, one of them was Pokémon Emerald. So I don't have a childhood connection to Nintendo, and never heard of Banjo until I actually started taking this hobby more "seriously" and all. Curiously, I knew of Terry (and a few SNK characters), though only by their designs, which I saw multiple times in some magazines or videogame stores, I think, but I never remembered their names lol

Just wrote this to entertain myself. As N3ON said there's hardly a clear answer to this.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

And yet the two succubi in Darkstalkers have stockings and high heels, one of them being a Hermaphrodite (that being Lilith), which means she's already suited to be in Smash. I don't see how that's a problem.

I'm sorry, did you just say Lilith is a better fit for Smash because she's a hermaphrodite?

That's... actually not true. Her being male or hermaphrodite (concept art isn't exactly clear on that) was a scrapped concept. By that logic, you should also say she's an angel since that's another scrapped idea.

Yeah. Flat-chested = Hermaphrodite.

Well, I never knew Lucina had a second sword

 

[RGFS]

But on the flipside, we have zero proof that this is what's actually happening. Circumstantial evidence, sure, but no body, no crime.

Sakurai does have say on the DLC, he has said he has the power to turn down suggestions, as alluded to, albeit somewhat jokingly, in the Steve presentation, but I'd personally take the man on his word for this, IMO at least.

I'm taking both the words of Reggie and Sakurai into consideration. This isn't really a crime, more something to know about when speculating, it's interesting as both ways of thinking help characters feel more likely to speculate. I severely doubt Nintendo would've chosen Joker, Terry, or even Pyra/Mythra by this point so assuming Sakurai sometimes chooses makes speculation easier for characters like those. For a character as huge as Steve, you can imagine Nintendo is the one pushing for it to actually happen mainly.

I already said Sakurai does have the final say on characters and he was finally pushed one more time by someone at Nintendo to add Steve in the first reply. In that Steve reveal he said that "More often than not these discussions start with Nintendo approaching him with an idea." So it seems pretty muddy and discussion-heavy to me.

To me, it feels like it isn't really black and white as Sakurai seems to let on when he says Nintendo chooses and he approves. Many times, Nintendo approaches first, and sometimes, Sakurai is the main one with a pitch.

Throwing away speculation because Sakurai said he doesn't choose just doesn't feel wise considering what Reggie said and what we've gotten sometimes.

Semi-related, is it true that a Phantasy Star contest inspired Sakurai to become a game dev or something like that.

 

[Dinoman96]

I think Banjo and Bayonetta are both special cases that make them kinda uncomparable to the other third parties. Both were popular on the ballot and both have games that were/are published worldwide by Nintendo, and their Smash appearances are mostly based on those games. Besides those two, Final Fantasy is the only other third party IP in Smash with that latter distinction (though Crystal Chronicles is ironically a complete no-show).

To me, they're both honorary Nintendo characters.

 

[SKX31]

It would also be something pretty small that most people wouldn't even notice like how Bowser Jr. is more vulnerable from the top since hitting his clown car deals less damage.

It's one of those things that most people don't notice no, but nevertheless very impactful. FTR "Moves that hit the Junior Clown Car deal 0.88× damage, whereas those that hit Bowser Jr. himself will deal 1.15× damage". It's not as bad as it was in Smash 4 (back then when an attack hit both Jr and the car, Jr. would be prioritized and thus take the more vurnerable damage. Ultimate reversed this.) but it is still something Jr players have to be mindful off - especially when stuff like Down Aerith and trickier projectiles like 's Can exist.

Eggman (or other vehicle users) could have a similar mechanic, since it puts an onus on not attacking the car itself. That said, Eggman and other vehicle users would probably play differently to Jr. (for one, no Up Air that's easy to chain into itself) so it gives some freedom to imagine other methods to protect that vurnerability.

Am I the only one who thinks a third Season Pass is kinda pointless, considering how long the DLC thing has gone and how long we have waited between characters, and the whole DLC thing and desire for it dying down?

I'm someone who's more used to long DLC cycles / live service games (my most wanted is a live service game pretty much) so I personally think that a third FP would be a welcome surprise. Welcome surprise being the key phrase here, since I strongly doubt that Sakurai / Furukawa would go for that for understandable reasons (exaustion, which I presume Sakurai's hinting at with the whole "been devving Smash for 10 years" thing).

Joker is the same case, only that his series has been around for a longer time than Bayonetta, which only has 2 (very acclaimed) games. And if you wanna count SMT into the mix, which I wouldn't, then there's no discussion. So he's more debatable, I'd say.

IIRC P3 is when Persona started to gain traction (and it did win Famitsu's and GameSpot's respective RPG of the Year awards), although P4 accelerated the momentum and P5 supercharged it. So Persona has at least 3, and there might be an argument that P1 / P2 did pretty well for themselves as well (especially in Japan).

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I think Banjo and Bayonetta are both special cases that make them kinda uncomparable to the other third parties. Both were popular on the ballot and both have games that were/are published worldwide by Nintendo, and their Smash appearances are mostly based on those games. Besides those two, Final Fantasy is the only other third party IP in Smash with that latter distinction (though Crystal Chronicles is ironically a complete no-show).

To me, they're both honorary Nintendo characters.

Helps that in Bayonetta's case, Nintendo themselves are the ones not only publishing the IP, but also funding it, iirc.

So they may not own it, but they sure are the ones keeping it alive since Bayo 2 and 3 would've never happened without Nintendo.

 

[RGFS]

Didn't he at least say he was choosing from a list back with Joker's announcement? I can't seem to find the tweet, but I know he said that. At the very least, we can conclude Nintendo's always had a hand in the decisions of SSBU's DLC cycle.

From what I can remember, it wasn't a list, that was speculation from fans. He stated Nintendo picked the characters and he decided to do them or not for whatever reason. For what it's worth, Sakurai's story hasn't changed since he first started saying it. Then people started speculating he got lists of characters to choose from.

I feel that rumor was bait for people to just post character lists on 4chan and act like this was the list Sakurai got.

 

[Shroob]

Helps that in Bayonetta's case, Nintendo themselves are the ones not only publishing the IP, but also funding it, iirc.

So they may not own it, but they sure are the ones keeping it alive since Bayo 2 and 3 would've never happened without Nintendo.

Bayo 3?

What is this mythical game you speak of.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Bayo 3?

What is this mythical game you speak of.

Oh right, I forgot this was a hallucination caused by overhyping, just like Prime 4. My bad.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

It’s interesting to think about how had it not been for Melee and Brawl having extra time to add in characters, would have eternally been a solo “rep” like among the original 12.

I think Banjo and Bayonetta are both special cases that make them kinda uncomparable to the other third parties. Both were popular on the ballot and both have games that were/are published worldwide by Nintendo, and their Smash appearances are mostly based on those games. Besides those two, Final Fantasy is the only other third party IP in Smash with that latter distinction (though Crystal Chronicles is ironically a complete no-show).

To me, they're both honorary Nintendo characters.

were literally owned by Nintendo originally

 

[PacificFun]

Am I the only one who thinks a third Season Pass is kinda pointless, considering how long the DLC thing has gone and how long we have waited between characters, and the whole DLC thing and desire for it dying down?

Street Fighter 5 and Tekken 7 DLC are still going strong so I don't think a third pass would be completely pointless. Do I want one? Hell no.

Fix the garbage online infrastructure and the ****ty ass buffer system first.

 

[SharkLord]

Didn't he at least say he was choosing from a list back with Joker's announcement? I can't seem to find the tweet, but I know he said that. At the very least, we can conclude Nintendo's always had a hand in the decisions of SSBU's DLC cycle.

There it is

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate’s DLC line-up is now complete. This time the selection was made entirely by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan.

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) November 6, 2018

Nothing about a list, but it at least tells us that he's confirmed Nintendo to be making the picks ever since the beginning.

 

[BlondeLombax]

There it is

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate’s DLC line-up is now complete. This time the selection was made entirely by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan.

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) November 6, 2018

Nothing about a list, but it at least tells us that he's confirmed Nintendo to be making the picks ever since the beginning.

It was two and a half years ago when this was posted. Is that of any importance?

 

[SharkLord]

It was two and a half years ago when this was posted. Is that of any importance?

The fact that it's been two and a half years means we're prime targets of the Mandela Effect

Also there's still debates and theories over whether or not Sakurai or Nintendo are making the picks. This shows that Sakurai didn't start going around saying he doesn't get to choose the fighters wasn't something that started relatively recently.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

There it is

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate’s DLC line-up is now complete. This time the selection was made entirely by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan.

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) November 6, 2018

Nothing about a list, but it at least tells us that he's confirmed Nintendo to be making the picks ever since the beginning.

Was that only for pass 1?

 

[SharkLord]

Was that only for pass 1?

Yeah, that was only for FP1, but the "Nintendo makes the picks" thing only became widespread after Byleth. I feel like it kinda got glossed over until then.

 

[Gnateb]

The only thing recently indicating that Nintendo made the choices for FP2 was right after Pythra released, when he said it "wasn't up to him how many swordfighters joined the game".

 

[N3ON]

No, people knew Nintendo was going to make the picks since that announcement, because the first month that info was available a bunch of people were bemoaning that it was just going to be Pokemon and Rex and FE and whatnot until Joker came along.

It's just been a while since then so new developments come and earlier preconceptions become foggy.

 

[SharkLord]

The only thing recently indicating that Nintendo made the choices for FP2 was right after Pythra released, when he said it "wasn't up to him how many swordfighters joined the game".

Well, that and the fact that Nintendo was the one who requested Steve. Pretty sure something similar was said about Min Min, but I could be misremembering.

 

[Shroob]

Feel like the next character will be very interesting though, regardless of who it is.


Will it be a solo reveal?
Will it be a "Frontrunner"
Someone no one saw coming?


One month to go

 

[Louie G.]

Well, that and the fact that Nintendo was the one who requested Steve. Pretty sure something similar was said about Min Min, but I could be misremembering.

It was Kosuke Yabuki, director of ARMS, who had specifically requested Min Min. Granted Sakurai said he had been considering her and Ninjara beforehand already, so it’s possible he was originally given the request for an “ARMS character” in general.

 

[SharkLord]

It was Kosuke Yabuki, director of ARMS, who had specifically requested Min Min. Granted Sakurai said he had been considering her and Ninjara beforehand already, so it’s possible he was originally given the request for an “ARMS character” in general.

Yeah, I think that was the general assumption. Between Min Min and Pyra, I think people are generally assuming Nintendo just wants the game represented and aren't too worried about the specific character chosen.

 

[PeridotGX]

new characters revealed

this is what you want, right?

 

[N3ON]

new characters revealed

this is what you want, right?

Had to wait til the end of that, but... those crazy ******** did it,

Good choice for what that mod wants to be.

Now let's see if anything more comes from that Mischief Makers stage.......