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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Pacack

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Then you missed the entire point because that's not remotely what I said in any way.

Also, Bayonetta is defined by her sexual stuff(which again, Nintendo hard promoted) and still was reduced to avoid that issue, so that's not true either. Clearly yes, characters that are from games defined by their sexual content can get in. Which is why I didn't make that take(that you think I'm saying). She's not from a hentai game either even then. An eroge just has it as a small part. A hentai game itself is, get this, purely just about sex. That's why they're different genres.

Nintendo isn't going to avoid an eroge just cause it's the genre. That doesn't matter. It matters what can even be taken from it that works within the context of Smash or any other game it'd crossover with. Which was the actual point I made the entire time. A lot of visual novels, which can easily have stuff in Smash, also are eroge-related(which is why they aren't very different genres. Most eroges are just visual novels with a slight bit of sexual content anyway). But just like Fate, many actually have usable Gameplay Elements that define the game as well. If not ten times more important in this case. Since Fate is all about the gameplay and just had sexual stuff in literally the first game alone(in comparison to the rest of the series which at most had a little bit of fanservice or at worst bad designs that pretty much are widely disliked anyway).
I may have read too much into the fact that your post was replying to a post that plainly stated that hentai games are not going to be in Smash.

But I am trying to make a distinction between "game with sexual themes" and "game defined by erotic content." Bayonetta does, undeniably, have sexual themes; however, it is primarily defined as an action hack-and-slash game. Conversely, the eroge genre is defined as "a visual novel game with erotic content."

To put it another way, Bayonetta is rated M by the ESRB and D by CERO, both indicating adult content. There is also, however, a rating above both of these for both rating systems. I strongly believe that any ESRB AO rated games or CERO Z rated games will not be in Smash in any form.

To be clear, I know very little about Fates, and I'm not arguing specifically on the merits of that game's inclusion.

If I misunderstood you, and you agree on the point that explicit games aren't making their way to Smash any time soon, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Calling Fate as a whole an eroge series is like calling this footage from typical mainline Mario gameplay
220px-Hotel_Mario_stage.png


It's as much of a part of the franchise as Sonic 1's spike glitch
Are we still talking about Fate? That series didn't have a racy game since 2004 and that version wasn't even officially made its way overseas or re-released without censoring. Grand Order and other games regularly make collaborations with family-friendly brands, including Wendys of all things.

I don't think we're getting a Fate character, at all. But if Nintendo is fine with Pyra and Mythra's artist doing NSFW art or Little Mac's voice actor doing voice-over for an eroge game in the past, I doubt they'll draw a hard line at Fate.
Silly Osby, that's owned by Nintendo so it doesn't count because I said so!
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I may have read too much into the fact that your post was replying to a post that plainly stated that hentai games are not going to be in Smash.

But I am trying to make a distinction between "game with sexual themes" and "game defined by erotic content." Bayonetta does, undeniably, have sexual themes; however, it is primarily defined as an action hack-and-slash game. Conversely, the eroge genre is defined as "a visual novel game with erotic content."

To put it another way, Bayonetta is rated M by the ESRB and D by CERO, both indicating adult content. There is also, however, a rating above both of these for both rating systems. I strongly believe that any ESRB AO rated games or CERO Z rated games will not be in Smash in any form.

To be clear, I know very little about Fates, and I'm not arguing specifically on the merits of that game's inclusion.

If I misunderstood you, and you agree on the point that explicit games aren't making their way to Smash any time soon, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Again, Bayonetta is most definitely an explicit game and again, Nintendo promoted her in freaking Playboy. So Nintendo actually promoted the sexual part of the character, and her mannerisms is all about playing up the sexy in Smash too. They just barely got away with not moving up the rating for her DLC, so she's extremely lucky CERO was okay with her. But she's not a good example of "being okay". She's actually close enough to going overboard in Smash. Palutena also had some pretty unfortunate things, like her pole-dancing taunt. CERO's issue is that it doesn't care about cleavage/breast size, but about panty shots. Nintendo doesn't care as much about sexual content as you think they do. They just have to tone down only certain aspects. Also, what Osby said. You're overall worrying about nothing. Hentai Games obviously won't be considered, and it's not related to the rating. Eregos are about gameplay(and they having sexual content doesn't much matter, since an Eroge just means it has sexual content alone, not that it actually is constantly about sex-related gameplay, which is a different thing. Those are actual Hentai Games. A different genre to begin with).

It being an eroge won't make a difference either way if the content is usable in the first place. There's zero tangible difference in terms of sexual content with your general Eroge(completely different from a hentai game, which is only about the sex, not just has some sexual content) and Bayonetta, which is heavily a sexual content game that is a hack and slash genre. The difference is pretty much... irrelevant, since they're both about massive sexual content anyway. If the sexual content mattered, Bayonetta would've most definitely not gotten in.

Fate is a good example of what started as an eroge, still had sexual content within the series here or there, and is a visual novel first and foremost(and people still think it wouldn't get in because of a single game poorly being made... which was retconned anyway). That said, it'd easily get a character if Nintendo finds anyone interesting among the latest stuff(like Grand/Order) or otherwise. Not like they need to be on a Nintendo system anyway. That's something Sakurai takes into consideration, but was never a rule. Nintendo is odd, cause they suggested a character and a franchise who had zero Nintendo appearances until way later(Persona), so it might be more of a case where they don't care if they have a Nintendo game, but if they can get the series on Nintendo, it's a good business decision(which fits Joker pretty well. And that's if it had any bit of relation to why he got in. There's nothing to suggest it was related. And no, SMT doesn't count as they're different series that only have some related stuff and some crossovers. Persona and SMT are officially separated series according to Atlus. Besides that, if SMT was important... why does it have zero content in Smash? Even Final Fantasy VII had something beyond it, even if it's just literally the Chocobo Costume, labeled as general Final Fantasy and coming from a spin-off game).

I also see where the confusion is; H-Game is just another name for Eroge. I mean that porn games(which is the other genre I meant, just I worded it wrong) won't be considered. H-Games/Eroges are basically just R-Rated films in terms of their content... which is basically what Bayonetta would be in terms of ratings. This is why I don't see them being ignored due to their genre, just if the particular game literally has nothing to do work with instead. Since gameplay is the key to whether a moveset can be made or not these days. Only a tiny few characters actually had to have a lot of stuff made up, and it's actually rare where their own regular gameplay wasn't adapted at all. Star Fox might seem made up, but some of the stuff actually is based upon the series. Fox being fast, for instance, is due to being in a fast Arwing. His Laser is pretty clearly the same one the Arwing uses. Later on, he gets a new Side B that is pretty much the Boost move. So still mostly made up, but some basis(he's also on the ground in the N64 multiplayer with an actual weapon too). Captain Falcon is practically 100% original, using Japanese Superheroes as his basis. At most, his speed is pretty much the point behind F-Zero, if anything can be looked at from the games. There's still some moves heavily modified(like Monado Arts), but it isn't done that much nowadays. So yeah, if there's worthwihle gameplay that can be adapted, it's not hard to get a character, imo. There's going to be other factors(like licensing, the game is way too obscure or has zero translations, etc). But generally, I don't treat a genre as a major downside on its own.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Are we still talking about Fate? That series didn't have a racy game since 2004 and that version wasn't even officially made its way overseas or re-released without censoring. Grand Order and other games regularly make collaborations with family-friendly brands, including Wendys of all things.

I don't think we're getting a Fate character, at all. But if Nintendo is fine with Pyra and Mythra's artist doing NSFW art or Little Mac's voice actor doing voice-over for an eroge game in the past, I doubt they'll draw a hard line at Fate.
It was being brought up as an example of a series known for sexual content anyway that was still more than plausible for getting in. Worst part is it still has a lot of horrific designs/moments even well after the original game, so it's not really any different from Bayonetta(Hell, Bayonetta is far more sexual even to this day). Only the anime tends to play up the sexual content more, and it's not even that much. The gore/unfortunate designs are pretty much the common thing about the series these days. Wouldn't really stop it from getting content. There's other reasons, but the series not being the most family-friendly isn't one of them.

Yeah, Nintendo doesn't care. They really really don't. They only care about how their own created characters are portrayed at best. Everybody else? Well, they've made it clear they don't just have games that are only family-friendly. Otherwise they wouldn't allow tons of third party support like Mortal Kombat. And so on. And boy did MK get insane since the 3D era, and taken further when games like Armageddon amped up the designs to look like more realistic characters instead of simplistic 3D models(not that N64 models were going to look that great either way. GameCube ones didn't look that great, but those were mostly ports from not heavily updated designs. It's more the Wii era when models become wayyyyy better).
 

Pacack

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Again, Bayonetta is most definitely an explicit game and again, Nintendo promoted her in freaking Playboy. So Nintendo actually promoted the sexual part of the character, and her mannerisms is all about playing up the sexy in Smash too. They just barely got away with not moving up the rating for her DLC, so she's extremely lucky CERO was okay with her. But she's not a good example of "being okay". She's actually close enough to going overboard in Smash. Palutena also had some pretty unfortunate things, like her pole-dancing taunt. CERO's issue is that it doesn't care about cleavage/breast size, but about panty shots. Nintendo doesn't care as much about sexual content as you think they do. They just have to tone down only certain aspects. Also, what Osby said. You're overall worrying about nothing. Hentai Games obviously won't be considered, and it's not related to the rating. Eregos are about gameplay(and they having sexual content doesn't much matter, since an Eroge just means it has sexual content alone, not that it actually is constantly about sex-related gameplay, which is a different thing. Those are actual Hentai Games. A different genre to begin with).

It being an eroge won't make a difference either way if the content is usable in the first place. There's zero tangible difference in terms of sexual content with your general Eroge(completely different from a hentai game, which is only about the sex, not just has some sexual content) and Bayonetta, which is heavily a sexual content game that is a hack and slash genre. The difference is pretty much... irrelevant, since they're both about massive sexual content anyway. If the sexual content mattered, Bayonetta would've most definitely not gotten in.

Fate is a good example of what started as an eroge, still had sexual content within the series here or there, and is a visual novel first and foremost(and people still think it wouldn't get in because of a single game poorly being made... which was retconned anyway). That said, it'd easily get a character if Nintendo finds anyone interesting among the latest stuff(like Grand/Order) or otherwise. Not like they need to be on a Nintendo system anyway. That's something Sakurai takes into consideration, but was never a rule. Nintendo is odd, cause they suggested a character and a franchise who had zero Nintendo appearances until way later(Persona), so it might be more of a case where they don't care if they have a Nintendo game, but if they can get the series on Nintendo, it's a good business decision(which fits Joker pretty well. And that's if it had any bit of relation to why he got in. There's nothing to suggest it was related. And no, SMT doesn't count as they're different series that only have some related stuff and some crossovers. Persona and SMT are officially separated series according to Atlus. Besides that, if SMT was important... why does it have zero content in Smash? Even Final Fantasy VII had something beyond it, even if it's just literally the Chocobo Costume, labeled as general Final Fantasy and coming from a spin-off game).
You're making a ton of different arguments here, and I could break down each of your points and argue against them, but I have no desire to. I disagree with you on multiple points, but you're entitled to your opinions.
You'd be surprised how common that mindset is, Saber often gets shut down ASAP because "what if the kids see the original game that had porn in it?" Besides, you just argued with someone who said eroge is fair game for Smash
My only point is that games with pornographic content aren't being added to Smash. Whether that applies to Fates or Saber is something I have no opinion on, because I do not know anything about the series.


(This following section is less of a response to you specifically and more my general thoughts on the topic.)

I know that people tend to bring up Bayonetta as a counterpoint, but I think that misunderstands what Bayonetta is like as a game. I've played it extensively, and I can tell you that the sexual elements of the game are far less intense than the violence.

The ESRB notes that Bayonetta has "Partial Nudity and Suggestive Themes," which are defined as "brief and/or mild depictions of nudity" and "mild provocative references or materials" respectively. Notably, it does not have a warning for "Sexual Content" or "Sexual Themes."

Conversely, it also notes that Bayonetta has "Blood and Gore and Intense Violence," which are defined as "depictions of blood or the mutilation of body parts" and "graphic and realistic-looking depictions of physical conflict." respectively.

The game is highly suggestive, but that element was kept largely intact in Smash Bros. because the E10+ rating allows for suggestive content, as long as it's not outright sexual.

That is the line which Smash Bros. is careful not to cross. Suggestive content is one thing, but anything more than that would raise the age rating.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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You're making a ton of different arguments here, and I could break down each of your points and argue against them, but I have no desire to. I disagree with you on multiple points, but you're entitled to your opinions.
You didn't see my edit, which is part of where the confusion comes from.

That said, they aren't going to add pornographic content in itself. Nobody is arguing they would. And Eroges are not porn games anyway.

That's a different genre, which is the core point I was making(I forget that H-Game, not to be confused with a porn game, is the same term for Eroge).

Eroges getting gameplay content is a different thing from getting pornographic content. Thus, you're making an argument that nobody is arguing against. I don't think Eroges would be ignored because they contain some sexual content(which again, is actually equivalent to what Bayonetta has, since Bayonetta is pretty much no different from an R-Rated movie. Remember, Eroges are not X-Rated movie equivalents. They're R-Rated ones. This is a key distinction between that and an actual porn game). So they're different from what you're saying. That's not to say they would easily get any content, just that the fact they have sexual content isn't something Nintendo really cares about as much as you think they do. Osby already proved that beforehand. And Bayonetta isn't a good point in your favor. Nintendo again, promoted the sexual part of Bayonetta directly. Not just the fact she's nude, but that she's in a porn magazine. That says a lot about how much they care. That's not a disagreement, that's a hard fact that they care very little about content like that alone(also, nudity alibe can be treated as pornographic content, but that’s not getting adapted into Smash either). They won't obviously add it to their games, but nobody is saying they would nor was making that argument at all. You misread massively what I was saying from the start, it appears. Cause nobody mentioned them adding content like that in any way as possible.

So it's just a misunderstanding in this case. The only genre I don't think they will ever actually go with is a porn game(or obviously any Licensed Game for a different reason, since those are non-game characters), and anything else entirely depends upon if they can properly adapt the gameplay, regardless of what it is. FPS elements are adaptable, but things like ammo aren't easy(and anyone can tell you Steve/Alex is difficult to play due to their ammo system as is. Not that they're bad characters, but it does show it's hard to balance. You don't see a lot of ammo-based gameplay in fighting games either for that reason. The core gameplay isn't generally designed where ammo works well. The most might be specific items(like Spirits do) with one time use per match at best. Or stuff like a "few times per match" special abilities that everyone has(same with Banjo & Kazooie's Wonder Wing). I can't actually think of any examples of true ammo based gameplay other than Steve/Alex right now. I don't think Jill Valentine even had that in either of her MvC appearances, honestly. But I only slightly played her in 2, where she did summons, and not in 3, so.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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My only point is that games with pornographic content aren't being added to Smash. Whether that applies to Fates or Saber is something I have no opinion on, because I do not know anything about the series.
To summarize, the original Fate Stay Night game has sex scenes, however, these got removed in console ports and have never really been a thing since except for the CG *** dragon in the Deen anime as far as I remember. Banning Fate from Smash due to this is like if Sonic wasn't put in Brawl because of the realistic guns in Shadow the Hedgehog as Sakurai used to be very concerned about that
 

Lyncario

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Besides that, if SMT was important... why does it have zero content in Smash?
Just touching on that one point...

If Halo is so important, why does it have no content in Smash? If Call of Duty is so important, why does it have no content in Smash? If GTA is so important, why does it have no content in Smash? If Tomb Raider is so important, why does it have no content in Smash? If Cave Story and Touhou ate so important, why do they have no content in Smash? If Devil May Cry is so important, why does it have no content in Smash? If Resident Evil is so important, why did it only get spirits? If Dragon Quest is so important, why did it only get content in the dlc cycle of Ultimate while Final Fantasy got content in the dlc cycle of the last game? If Minecraft is so big and important, why did it only get in Smash in Ultimate's second dlc cycle, after Banjo? If Street Fighter is so important, why did Megaman get in before Ryu?

Easy answers, not only is there multiple factors deciding who gets in Smash, but two of said factors are budget and the human limitations which makes so that not all of gaming can be represented in Smash, because that's literaly impossible to do. Sakurai and his teams are humans working with other humans, there's a limit to what they can do. Smash isn't a way to mesure importance and iconicity.
 
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Pacack

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You didn't see my edit, which is part of where the confusion comes from.

That said, they aren't going to add pornographic content in itself. Nobody is arguing they would. And Eroges are not porn games anyway.

That's a different genre, which is the core point I was making(I forget that H-Game, not to be confused with a porn game, is the same term for Eroge).

Eroges getting gameplay content is a different thing from getting pornographic content. Thus, you're making an argument that nobody is arguing against. I don't think Eroges would be ignored because they contain some sexual content(which again, is actually equivalent to what Bayonetta has, since Bayonetta is pretty much no different from an R-Rated movie. Remember, Eroges are not X-Rated movie equivalents. They're R-Rated ones. This is a key distinction between that and an actual porn game). So they're different from what you're saying. That's not to say they would easily get any content, just that the fact they have sexual content isn't something Nintendo really cares about as much as you think they do. Osby already proved that beforehand. And Bayonetta isn't a good point in your favor. Nintendo again, promoted the sexual part of Bayonetta directly. Not just the fact she's nude, but that she's in a porn magazine. That says a lot about how much they care. That's not a disagreement, that's a hard fact that they care very little about content like that alone. They won't obviously add it to their games, but nobody is saying they would nor was making that argument at all. You misread massively what I was saying from the start, it appears. Cause nobody mentioned them adding content like that in any way as possible.

So it's just a misunderstanding in this case. The only genre I don't think they will ever actually go with is a porn game(or obviously any Licensed Game for a different reason, since those are non-game characters), and anything else entirely depends upon if they can properly adapt the gameplay, regardless of what it is. FPS elements are adaptable, but things like ammo aren't easy(and anyone can tell you Steve/Alex is difficult to play due to their ammo system as is. Not that they're bad characters, but it does show it's hard to balance. You don't see a lot of ammo-based gameplay in fighting games either for that reason. The core gameplay isn't generally designed where ammo works well. The most might be specific items(like Spirits do) with one time use per match at best. Or stuff like a "few times per match" special abilities that everyone has(same with Banjo & Kazooie's Wonder Wing). I can't actually think of any examples of true ammo based gameplay other than Steve/Alex right now. I don't think Jill Valentine even had that in either of her MvC appearances, honestly. But I only slightly played her in 2, where she did summons, and not in 3, so.
I appreciate you clarifying the misunderstanding.

In regards to Bayonetta, I do think that that isn't as big a point in your favor as you think it is. While Nintendo did play up Bayonetta's sexual themes, my point is that Smash Bros. specifically did not. The issue was never whether Nintendo cares, it's whether Smash Bros. specifically would have its age rating affected by an inclusion. That's all I'm considering, and I think that's all you're really considering as well.

Again, mostly a misunderstanding.
To summarize, the original Fate Stay Night game has sex scenes, however, these got removed in console ports and have never really been a thing since except for the CG *** dragon in the Deen anime as far as I remember. Banning Fate from Smash due to this is like if Sonic wasn't put in Brawl because of the realistic guns in Shadow the Hedgehog as Sakurai used to be very concerned about that
Thank you very much for the explanation.
 

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Just touching on that one point...

If Halo is so important, why does it have no content in Smash? If Call of Duty is so important, why does it have no content in Smash? If GTA is so important, why does it have no content in Smash? If Tomb Raider is so important, why does it have no content in Smash? If Cave Story and Touhou ate so important, why do they have no content in Smash? If Devil May Cry is so important, why does it have no content in Smash? If Resident Evil is so important, why did it only get spirits? If Dragon Quest is so important, why did it only get content in the dlc cycle of Ultimate while Final Fantasy got content in the dlc cycle of the last game? If Street Fighter is so important, why did Megaman get in before Ryu?

Easy answers, not only is there multiple factors deciding who gets in Smash, but two of said factors are budget and the human limitations which makes so that not all of gaming can be represented in Smash, because that's literaly impossible to do. Sakurai and his teams are humans working with other humans, there's a limit to what they can do.
Read the context. That has no bearing on what I said. I was blatantly talking about it in relation to it being important to Persona. You’re cherry-picking to reply to a point I never made.

This is why removing context isn’t a good idea.


I appreciate you clarifying the misunderstanding.

In regards to Bayonetta, I do think that that isn't as big a point in your favor as you think it is. While Nintendo did play up Bayonetta's sexual themes, my point is that Smash Bros. specifically did not. The issue was never whether Nintendo cares, it's whether Smash Bros. specifically would have its age rating affected by an inclusion. That's all I'm considering, and I think that's all you're really considering as well.

Again, mostly a misunderstanding.

Thank you very much for the explanation.
That's what I'm saying too. Smash won't play up the particular pornographic stuff. It's just nonexistent. Nintendo won't shy away from something cause it has pornographic content either, but obviously that part won't be adapted into Smash. Something suggestive sexual stuff is the most it could get if it doesn't change the current rating, anyway. So far, Bayonetta's barely sexual mannerisms made no difference(and she's the closest to borderline you can get).

But yeah, we were talking around each other. You misread earlier that I was saying pornographic content could be selected. I was saying a game with pornographic content wouldn't be ignored in itself. But I never once believed pornographic content could ever get in either. Like... hell no. Not happening.

Sorry for the tons of confusion. Especially when I mistook what a genre's proper names were. >.<;

Anyway, I can definitely say I'd love Fate to be in as is. It's basically a pretty neat series where there's a bunch of character classes, which throws tons of various historical domain characters(and not always who fall under those) into one of seven classes(there's a few more, but these are the base) in what's called a Holy Grail War. A Mage summons a Servant to fight for them. Every servant is capable to fighting in quite a powerful way, regardless of what Class, though very few can be nearly any class either(as there's all kinds of requirements for each class. I.E. if you don't really cast magic or use any, you can't be a Caster. If you don't use a sword, you can't be a Saber, etc.). The big thing is their special moves are called Noble Phantasms. Oddly they're referred to as Heroes even when they're evil, so the whole idea seems to be more "depending on the writer"(as anyone can tell you that in most wars, who are the heroes and the villains of that fight depends upon whose side you're on) than morality factors. ...Hell, most casters are pretty damn evil. ._.; But yeah, there's a lot of fun gameplay factors they can include, as they have tons of stats. I only watched the anime, so I don't know how all the stats work myself, though.
 
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ahemtoday

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To summarize, the original Fate Stay Night game has sex scenes, however, these got removed in console ports and have never really been a thing since except for the CG *** dragon in the Deen anime as far as I remember. Banning Fate from Smash due to this is like if Sonic wasn't put in Brawl because of the realistic guns in Shadow the Hedgehog as Sakurai used to be very concerned about that
There's a sex scene with a CG what dragon?! I... don't know if I want to know what's behind those asterisks.
 

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To summarize, the original Fate Stay Night game has sex scenes, however, these got removed in console ports and have never really been a thing since except for the CG *** dragon in the Deen anime as far as I remember. Banning Fate from Smash due to this is like if Sonic wasn't put in Brawl because of the realistic guns in Shadow the Hedgehog as Sakurai used to be very concerned about that
A WHAT!?
 

DanganZilla5

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To summarize, the original Fate Stay Night game has sex scenes, however, these got removed in console ports and have never really been a thing since except for the CG *** dragon in the Deen anime as far as I remember. Banning Fate from Smash due to this is like if Sonic wasn't put in Brawl because of the realistic guns in Shadow the Hedgehog as Sakurai used to be very concerned about that
This brings a new meaning to "Rock the Dragon".
 

SKX31

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...there was a dynasty warriors movie???
Yup, so far only released in China / Hong Kong, but IIRC Netflix picked it up. Zhuge covered it pretty extensively, like this trailer.

To summarize, the original Fate Stay Night game has sex scenes, however, these got removed in console ports and have never really been a thing since except for the CG *** dragon in the Deen anime as far as I remember. Banning Fate from Smash due to this is like if Sonic wasn't put in Brawl because of the realistic guns in Shadow the Hedgehog as Sakurai used to be very concerned about that
There's a sex scene with a CG what dragon?! I... don't know if I want to know what's behind those asterisks.
This brings a new meaning to "Rock the Dragon".
...Okay, pretty sure these guys are watching the thread now:

d2450e060fa991e32d4f4e3a13e94280.jpg
 
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Commander_Alph

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The thing that always makes it frustrating is when talking about Fate and Smash Bros is that everyone seems to be more concerned on little kiddies accidentally stumbling upon the old intercourse scene when searching "Saber Fate" on Google, I specifically stated the one from the game not the the ones that the internet created which the chances of finding that is closer to zero (unless you searching it on purpose) and also the fact that they always mention how Mordred was born but that's only on the written material and profile as just a piece of the lore and not intended to be sexual (only if you're that small percentage of people who have a big imagination).
 
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DanganZilla5

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The whole thing about "Nintendo not wanting kids to look up inappropriate things" is a moot argument. While it's not on the same lines as a sex scene, we already have Bayonetta who in her games is nearly naked while using her powers. People who are new to SNK thanks to Terry will look up the games and play Fatal Fury so they will eventually see the "Not for good boys and girls" Mai.

Besides, it's hard to come across that provocative scene in Fates anyway because it's only in the older version of Fates which is harder to access and thus has less info on the internet. And even then would Nintendo really care? It's not like Fate is primarily a hentai game so they would be fine with Saber as long as there is no reference to sex in her Smash appearance which is completely avoidable.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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The whole thing about "Nintendo not wanting kids to look up inappropriate things" is a mute argument. While it's not on the same lines as a sex scene, we already have Bayonetta who in her games is nearly naked while using her powers. People who are new to SNK thanks to Terry will look up the games and play Fatal Fury so they will eventually see the "Not for good boys and girls" Mai.

Besides, it's hard to come across that provocative scene in Fates anyway because it's only in the older version of Fates which is harder to access and thus has less info on the internet. And even then would Nintendo really care? It's not like Fate is primarily a hentai game so they would be fine with Saber as long as there is no reference to sex in her Smash appearance which is completely avoidable.
Ok but they didn't add Blaziken in Smash and google once showed me porn even with safe search on and Blaziken isn't in Smash, coincidence? I think not!


Wait this means no Ace Attorney because I was looking for memes and came across fetish **** nooooo
 
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The whole thing about "Nintendo not wanting kids to look up inappropriate things" is a mute argument. While it's not on the same lines as a sex scene, we already have Bayonetta who in her games is nearly naked while using her powers. People who are new to SNK thanks to Terry will look up the games and play Fatal Fury so they will eventually see the "Not for good boys and girls" Mai.

Besides, it's hard to come across that provocative scene in Fates anyway because it's only in the older version of Fates which is harder to access and thus has less info on the internet. And even then would Nintendo really care? It's not like Fate is primarily a hentai game so they would be fine with Saber as long as there is no reference to sex in her Smash appearance which is completely avoidable.
Think you mean 'moot'; the argument is moot, not mute.

But you're right. Bayonetta was pretty sexualized in her game and even if they did make her a bit more 'kid-friendly' here, anyone looking her up is going to see the more explicit material yet Ninendo not only put her in Smash, but rescued her series as a whole. Also, everything is inappropriate if you look hard enough....and even then, you really don't need to look hard; just look for anything without SafeSearch on and you'll find something unsavory pretty quickly lol.

I don't think the 'inappropriate' argument really works unless its for a character from a game whose gameplay & concept pretty much explicitly revolves around...well...explicit content.
 

3BitSaurus

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Oh hey everyone, what's go-

Sees current debate

Oh my, it seems like we're discussing a hot topic again huh? :roll:


As for the "Nintendo relation" discussion, I wanna drop my two cents: it's not the end-all, but it should be noted that we only have a few third parties that don't really get too much attention on Nintendo platforms.

Usually, when discussing these picks, people tend to flock either to characters/series that are big enough to "ignore" that condition (Master Chief, Kratos, a Blizzard rep, a LoL rep, Lara Croft), characters who are in the public spotlight (Kiryu, 2B) or characters who have a bit of both (Heihachi, a Dark Souls rep).

It's kinda telling that people don't consider characters like Frank West, Heavy, Parappa or KOS-MOS as frontrunners, in spite of them being perfectly valid options on paper.
 

Bobthealligator

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The whole thing about "Nintendo not wanting kids to look up inappropriate things" is a moot argument. While it's not on the same lines as a sex scene, we already have Bayonetta who in her games is nearly naked while using her powers. People who are new to SNK thanks to Terry will look up the games and play Fatal Fury so they will eventually see the "Not for good boys and girls" Mai.
The "not for good boys and girls" quote was mistranslated. He said "even though Smash is for good boys and girls" because he rightly finds western rating's agencies reaction to female sexuality ridiculous.
 

DanganZilla5

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The "not for good boys and girls" quote was mistranslated. He said "even though Smash is for good boys and girls" because he rightly finds western rating's agencies reaction to female sexuality ridiculous.
I'm aware of that. I'm just going along with the memes.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Oh hey everyone, what's go-

Sees current debate

Oh my, it seems like we're discussing a hot topic again huh? :roll:


As for the "Nintendo relation" discussion, I wanna drop my two cents: it's not the end-all, but it should be noted that we only have a few third parties that don't really get too much attention on Nintendo platforms.

Usually, when discussing these picks, people tend to flock either to characters/series that are big enough to "ignore" that condition (Master Chief, Kratos, a Blizzard rep, a LoL rep, Lara Croft), characters who are in the public spotlight (Kiryu, 2B) or characters who have a bit of both (Heihachi, a Dark Souls rep).

It's kinda telling that people don't consider characters like Frank West, Heavy, Parappa or KOS-MOS as frontrunners, in spite of them being perfectly valid options on paper.
Kosmos was a frontrunner for a while so I disagree with her being counted here, with discussion about her only fading away like half a year ago and then disappearing only when a different Xeno character happened
 

3BitSaurus

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Kosmos was a frontrunner for a while so I disagree with her being counted here, with discussion about her only fading away like half a year ago and then disappearing only when a different Xeno character happened
True, but she was mostly considered at the time for two reasons: being in a lot of Monolith-run crossovers and art; and the whole "female fighter" rumor, plus a few other rumors with her.

Even then, that first one... kinda pointed more towards Xenoblade than Xenosaga, since it's a first party series.
 

Cutie Gwen

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True, but she was mostly considered at the time for two reasons: being in a lot of Monolith-run crossovers and art; and the whole "female fighter" rumor, plus a few other rumors with her.

Even then, that first one... kinda pointed more towards Xenoblade than Xenosaga, since it's a first party series.
Rumours are how we have like 70% of frontrunners in Smash history, need I remind you of why Hayabusa refuses to stay dead?
 

3BitSaurus

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Rumours are how we have like 70% of frontrunners in Smash history, need I remind you of why Hayabusa refuses to stay dead?
Okay, but... that doesn't really go against what I've said.

She was still considered likely due to a very specific reason that arose at the time and then faded, rather than it being all about her or Xenosaga's own merits - which is not what you see with picks like Kiryu, Chief and Dark Souls.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Okay, but... that doesn't really go against what I've said.

She was still considered likely due to a very specific reason that arose at the time and then faded, rather than it being all about her or Xenosaga's own merits - which is not what you see with picks like Kiryu, Chief and Dark Souls.
I distinctively remember Dark Souls getting more discussion around the time Mariotehplumbler pulled something with google that made it look like we were getting Artorius, Banjo, Doom Slayer and Hayabusa for the first pass, my point is that perspective always changes due to rumours and that if we downplay certain characters getting discussed because of that then we're doing something wrong. Like, you can make a legit argument that Ridley, K.Rool and Banjo were all just bandwagons which is pretty much the same thing as saying "Those had rumours they don't count". I say this as someone who'd rather have kosmos stay away from Smash btw
 

Gnateb

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Okay, but... that doesn't really go against what I've said.

She was still considered likely due to a very specific reason that arose at the time and then faded, rather than it being all about her or Xenosaga's own merits - which is not what you see with picks like Kiryu, Chief and Dark Souls.
Dark Souls may seem talked about here and on SmashFAQs, sort of, but in the larger world of Smash speculation it pales in comparison to the chatter that other characters recieve. Despite being the only Bamco series with an Amiibo, the centers of attention are usually Lloyd, Yuri, Heihachi, etc.

I think that we could be giving Diablo more attention, that series checks out in a lot of ways.
 
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3BitSaurus

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I distinctively remember Dark Souls getting more discussion around the time Mariotehplumbler pulled something with google that made it look like we were getting Artorius, Banjo, Doom Slayer and Hayabusa for the first pass, my point is that perspective always changes due to rumours and that if we downplay certain characters getting discussed because of that then we're doing something wrong. Like, you can make a legit argument that Ridley, K.Rool and Banjo were all just bandwagons which is pretty much the same thing as saying "Those had rumours they don't count". I say this as someone who'd rather have kosmos stay away from Smash btw
I mean, yeah, it got more discussion, but it got discussed regardless, and still does to this day. Wasn't this thread talking about Chosen Undead just a few days ago?

The comparison doesn't really work here because all of those characters still had conversations around them regardless of rumors - in fact, the discussions around Ridley, K. Rool and Banjo were what fueled rumors, not the other way around.

The point with KOS-MOS isn't that she doesn't get any legitimate discussion at all at any point in time, but rather that she isn't considered to be on the same level of "likeliness" as the other charactes I metioned in my first post. That's it, really.

Dark Souls may seem talked about here and on SmashFAQs, sort of, but in the larger world of Smash speculation it pales in comparison to the chatter that other characters recieve. Despite being the only Bamco series with an Amiibo, the centers of attention are usually Lloyd, Yuri, Heihachi, etc.

I think that we could be giving Diablo more attention, that series checks out in a lot of ways.
I mean, yeah, that's another issue. Popularity doesn't really equate to chances. But it still gets a fair amount of discussion.

Since you mentioned Diablo, I'd like to know from one of the people in Japan (tagging A Ayumi Tachibana ): how popular is Diablo there? I know it gets a few references in japanese games every once in a blue moon, but I'm curious about how popular it actually is.
 

Gengar84

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Dark Souls may seem talked about here and on SmashFAQs, sort of, but in the larger world of Smash speculation it pales in comparison to the chatter that other characters recieve. Despite being the only Bamco series with an Amiibo, the centers of attention are usually Lloyd, Yuri, Heihachi, etc.

I think that we could be giving Diablo more attention, that series checks out in a lot of ways.
Yeah, I think people are discounting Blizzard in general. A lot of their games are huge worldwide and rarely ever get brought up in Smash discussion. Warcraft alone has revolutionized or even inspired the creation of entire genres that are huge today (RTS, MMORPG, MOBA, and Digital TCG).

If we did get Diablo, would you prefer his classic design or his Diablo 3 design? Both are cool but I would personally prefer his 3 design since he looks more unique and I just like his design better in that game.
 
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Gnateb

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I mean, yeah, it got more discussion, but it got discussed regardless, and still does to this day. Wasn't this thread talking about Chosen Undead just a few days ago?
I think that may have been me, lol.

Diablo III is the most popular in Japan out of the series, but I'm not sure if it's that popular in general.

If we did get Diablo, would you prefer his classic design or his Diablo 3 design? Both are cool but I would personally prefer his 3 design since he looks more unique and I just like his design better in that game.
I would say Diablo III. Plus, Nintendo and Blizzard seem to favor that game/design over the others, as it got a promotional Amiibo and Switch bundle.
 
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chocolatejr9

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Yeah, I think people are discounting Blizzard in general. A lot of their games are huge worldwide and rarely ever get brought up in Smash discussion. Warcraft alone has revolutionized or even inspired the creation of entire genres that are huge today (RTS, MMORPG, MOBA, and Digital TCG).

If we did get Diablo, would you prefer his classic design or his Diablo 3 design? Both are cool but I would personally prefer his 3 design since he looks more unique and I just like his design better in that game.
To be fair, Blizzard isn't THAT big worldwide, and they only recently started working with Nintendo.

Plus, they're arguably 80% Activision at this point...
 

Cutie Gwen

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I mean, yeah, it got more discussion, but it got discussed regardless, and still does to this day. Wasn't this thread talking about Chosen Undead just a few days ago?

The comparison doesn't really work here because all of those characters still had conversations around them regardless of rumors - in fact, the discussions around Ridley, K. Rool and Banjo were what fueled rumors, not the other way around.

The point with KOS-MOS isn't that she doesn't get any legitimate discussion at all at any point in time, but rather that she isn't considered to be on the same level of "likeliness" as the other charactes I metioned in my first post. That's it, really.



I mean, yeah, that's another issue. Popularity doesn't really equate to chances. But it still gets a fair amount of discussion.

Since you mentioned Diablo, I'd like to know from one of the people in Japan (tagging A Ayumi Tachibana ): how popular is Diablo there? I know it gets a few references in japanese games every once in a blue moon, but I'm curious about how popular it actually is.
I think you misunderstood my comparisons to Ridley, K.Rool and Banjo, you can just easily say they were bandwagons, Ridley? People thought he was in Melee and then they wanted him to be in Smash. K.Rool? Got much more popular after the push for more villains. Banjo? His fanbase barely pushed for him until Phil Spencer said "Yeah I like free money". They all kept getting rumours because they were often speculated about, which happened to Hayabusa constantly, Reimu gets a lot of it, KOSMOS got it a lot for a while, etc. It's easy to dismiss them as rumoured characters but if they get in, they wouldn't get dismissed
 

Garteam

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A past in erotica isn't really that big of an issue in Japan. People have already mentioned quite a few examples of this, but I'd like to add that Fire Emblem: Awakening and (IIRC) Fire Emblem: Heroes also had former hentai artists do guest art.

In terms of whether or not you need a Nintendo connection to be a third-party, it's not a necessary condition, but it can certainly help a character reach a sufficient condition.

Obviously, :ultcloud:/:ultsephiroth: and :ultjoker: are largely Playstation-centric characters who have had most of their mainline appearances off Nintendo consoles (although, both did have some Nintendo connection through FF Threatrhythm/Dungeons and Q2 on 3DS, with Sakurai saying it might have reconsidered Cloud had he not met this standard. However, it's unknown if he had the same thoughts implementing Joker or a future character with no mainline Nintendo entries). So, clearly, this isn't required.

On the other hand, we have :ultbayonetta: and :ultbanjokazooie:, two characters who would certainly not be in Smash if Nintendo didn't fund Bayonetta 2's development or Nintendo didn't publish Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie. Likewise, :ultmegaman:, :ultsimon:, and :ulthero: are all characters who appeared primarily on Nintendo consoles and maintain strong ties with Nintendo as a brand today, which lead to increased demand for their inclusion. On top of that, :ultsonic:, :ultpacman:, :ultryu:, :ultken:, :ult_terry:, and :ultsteve: have all had at least one heavily promoted port of a mainline entry on a Nintendo console.

That just leaves :ultsnake: and :ultrichter:. Snake could be in the last category due to Metal Gear NES, The Twins Snakes, and Snake Eater 3D, but Metal Gear is so intrinsically tied to the Playstation that he fits much better with Cloud, Joker, and Sephiroth, so we'll put him there for the sake of argument. Richter is trickier. Dracula X and Symphony of the Night are things, but he's also so intrinsically tied to Rondo of Blood and the PC Engine both among fans and in Smash that I really wouldn't put him into either category. As such, I'm just going to leave him as a weird outlier.

So, that gives us 4 third-party characters with a limited Nintendo history... but it also gives us 5 third-party characters who are primarily connected to Nintendo and 6 third-party characters who have at least one significant release on a Nintendo system. Even if you don't want to count those previous six, it's very tough to look at :ultmegaman:, :ultbayonetta:, :ultsimon:, :ulthero:, and :ultbanjokazooie: without acknowledging that some characters are benefitting from a Nintendo-centric history even if others are not.
 
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