Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Icedragonadam]

Crash racing will be free to play if you have switch online for a week. Interestingly, this is the second Activision game that had this offer, the first being Overwatch. Probbaly doesn't mean a lot for Smash speculation but still intersting that Activision are the few third party that had that offer (the other was Disgaea).

Also if you haven't already try the game. It's really that good.

If it actually meant anything for Smash then it would be bad for Crash. The ARMs trial went up the moment an ARMs character was revealed in the March Mini.

 

[Garteam]

I'm kinda skeptical that we'll get a franchise that's massive in one part of the world but virtually non-existent in another, like Dungeon Fighter Online.

As Sakurai noted in his explanation on why Takamaru didn't make it into Smash for Wii U/3DS, he wants to make sure characters appeal, in someway, to an international audience. Even franchises in Smash that are more popular in certain regions than others, like Sonic outside of Asia and Dragon Quest outside of North America, still have a reasonably large impact even in countries where the franchise isn't that popular. I don't know if Sakurai would bite on a character who's appeal is so lop-sided towards one part of the world.

 

[SpectreJordan]

just had kind of a perfect storm behind his potential inclusion that made him very popular with the Smash fanbase prior to his inclusion in Wii U/3DS:

• Something of an honourary Nintendo character, given how iconic his NES appearances are to that console's iconography and legacy, so many people thought it was strange that he was passed up in Brawl.
• One of the few characters that could fit with the various rules that the fanbase had for potential third parties at the time (one character per company, must have some Nintendo connection, must be a major gaming icon, must have some historical impact on the medium).
• Saw a revival of his most classic incarnation around the Brawl came out with Mega Man 9 and 10, but quickly entered a dark age around 2011 where his games were rapidly getting cancelled and no one was sure of the franchise beyond merchandise and Virtual Console re-releases. People just wanted to see Mega Man in anything new.

was highly desired for reasons similar to Mega Man, although it was more about being a former Nintendo rival and his new games simply not being very good rather than not existing.
largely rode a wave of support from Kid Icarus Uprising. Given that many Smash fans followed Sakurai to Uprising and then later returned to Smash Speculation after that game released and Sakurai confirmed Smash would be his next project, people were pretty hype for a new Kid Icarus character.
started out as more of an obligation amongst the speculation community than an actual want. Awakening was super popular and came out at the right time to get a character for Wii U/3DS, so most people thought Chrom was inevitable as that game's protagonist. Even back then, a lot of people thought it would be overkill to have three blue-haired swordsmen from Fire Emblem. Once he got deconfirmed, however, Chrom went from being an unpopular inevitability to a fan-favourite underdog. Getting beat up by Captain Falcon and regulated to Robin's final smash really humanized the character in the eyes of the speculation community.
grew in popularity as more and more doubt surrounded Ridley's inclusion. Much like how people wanted more Mega Man after the series went silent, people really wanted Metroid to get another chance after Other M's lukewarm reception and sales. A lot of people thought getting another Metroid character in Smash would be a good way to accomplish this, and many of those people thought that Dark Samus was much more obtainable than Ridley. Plus, this was around the time where nostalgia for the Gamecube was starting to become a real thing and many looked back to Prime 1 and 2 as gems within that console's library.
While logical in hindsight, neither or were ever super popular amongst the speculation community. A few people brought up Ryu, but he was often ignored in favour of the more popular Mega Man due to the community's belief that outside companies could only have a single character. Plus, people misinterpreting Sakurai's quote about fighting game characters being potentially uninteresting as "fighting game characters are never happening" led many to think Ryu was fully off the table. Similarly, speculators likewise avoided Steve in favour of Banjo and Kazooie, as many thought they'd be the more logical Microsoft rep for Ultimate's DLC. The fact that Minecraft was still growing out of the "cringy kids" image it developed around 2014 at the time didn't help matters either.

There was also the Grotesque Steve images, but my court-ordered therapist is currently on vacation so we're just gonna ignore that.

Steve’s been topping fan polls ever since late 2018. He came in particularly high on the huge Source Gaming poll from earlier this year. The Steve for Smash Twitter page was also one of the most followed Smash fan accounts.

 

[SharkLord]

I have no idea what this game is, so I can't really comment on anything. Though if it really is so huge in South Korea, maybe Nintendo would consider it? I remember that one theory about how the DLC characters were meant to appeal to specific regions, but clearly it didn't pan out...

Also, where's my ArcSys-My Hero Academia fighting game? I DEMAND AN ARCSYS-MY HERO ACADEMIA FIGHTING GAME!!!!!!!

As Idon mentioned above, it's pretty darn big.

Fourth highest-grossing game, just below Super Mario, Pokemon, and Call of Duty. I could kinda see it as one of the less common "Non-Nintendo" third-parties, like Snake, Cloud, and Joker.

 

[cothero]

Didn't we just talk about her?

Yeah, she's still a possibility, but given how Smash seems to favor the biggest series a company owns, I'd put series like Tales, Dark Souls, and Digimon far above her in terms of likelihood. Doesn't help that she's mainly focused on due to her importance to the Xeno series, which means she also has to deal with Xenoblade characters who have more recency, more Smash requests, and are actually owned by Nintendo. KOS-MOS is in a bit of a bind, from my perspective. At least she's not as dead as Klonoa

Feeding into the Xeno-series debates, I highly doubt a Xenosaga character would get the Xenoblade icon. The series is mainly connected by thematic similarities, and are still separate games owned by separate companies. It's not like the many Mega Man subseries.

I gotta say, she's definitely not my type of character and i'm not into the Xeno series, but she looks kinda cool. I can see her being a very interesting character. She's badass in Card Saga Wars and could go along very well with other characters in smash and as far as i know, she's quite a favorite amongst many fans.

 

[chocolatejr9]

As Idon mentioned above, it's pretty darn big.
View attachment 297556
Fourth highest-grossing game, just below Super Mario, Pokemon, and Call of Duty. I could kinda see it as one of the less common "Non-Nintendo" third-parties, like Snake, Cloud, and Joker.

Oh great, we're gonna have to talk about Call of Duty at some point, aren't we?

 

[SharkLord]

So general consensus seem to be that the male Slayer is the most prominent DFO character. I know there's female variants of the classes, too. Would it be possible to have a female Slayer alt or do the paths diverge too much?

 

[SpectreJordan]

Y’all ever just

think about the time a certain douchebag named Alberto tagged Harada while other For Smash Twitter accounts supporting the likes of Sora, Doom Guy, Master Chief, Jonesy, and Arle were sharing memes with each other and Harada had the mother of all Diva Moments threatening to blacklist them from Smash?

pass 2 was finalized in January right? And the incident happened in 2019

what if those characters were indeed blacklisted...?

That would be REALLY stupid of Nintendo to blacklist guaranteed moneymakers like those characters because some dude who doesn’t even work for them (or port his games to Switch) got mad about 10 dudes on Twitter.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Also, where's my ArcSys-My Hero Academia fighting game? I DEMAND AN ARCSYS-MY HERO ACADEMIA FIGHTING GAME!!!!!!!

Still waiting out on an ArcSys Godzilla fighting game as once rumored that turned out to probably be false...

 

[Idon]

So general consensus seem to be that the male Slayer is the most prominent DFO character. I know there's female variants of the classes, too. Would it be possible to have a female Slayer alt or do the paths diverge too much?

Nah, they're not really alts. They're different characters entirely with different animations, attacks, and specialties.

One of Male Slayer's gimmicks is his giant cursed demon arm and the Female Slayer doesn't have that at all.

 

[Faso115]

Call of duty soldier with a perk switching gimmick.

Most players will use Commando to have even better range than Min Min.

Also a killstreak mechanic just to go bonkers

 

[JOJONumber691]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

She's on the same screen as Kirby, I'd say that's close enough.

Game by NAMCO, not Nintendo. Both Nintendo and ZUN licensed out characters for a NAMCO Game. I'm talking something directly produced by either party. So my thoughts haven't changed a single bit.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'm kinda skeptical that we'll get a franchise that's massive in one part of the world but virtually non-existent in another, like Dungeon Fighter Online.

As Sakurai noted in his explanation on why Takamaru didn't make it into Smash for Wii U/3DS, he wants to make sure characters appeal, in someway, to an international audience. Even franchises in Smash that are more popular in certain regions than others, like Sonic outside of Asia and Dragon Quest outside of North America, still have a reasonably large impact even in countries where the franchise isn't that popular. I don't know if Sakurai would bite on a character who's appeal is so lop-sided towards one part of the world.

Agreed. Its one thing to do so in the context of base game content where there's no risk and a region unfamiliar with the character can get a feel for them at no real cost (see Ridley, Little Mac); its quite another to outright have them as paid DLC and/or as part of a blind Fighter's Pass.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Nah, they're not really alts. They're different characters entirely with different animations, attacks, and specialties.

One of Male Slayer's gimmicks is his giant cursed demon arm and the Female Slayer doesn't have that at all.

Thus why I highlight Creator as a frontrunner for a DFO Character.

 

[7NATOR]

Y’all ever just

think about the time a certain douchebag named Alberto tagged Harada while other For Smash Twitter accounts supporting the likes of Sora, Doom Guy, Master Chief, Jonesy, and Arle were sharing memes with each other and Harada had the mother of all Diva Moments threatening to blacklist them from Smash?

pass 2 was finalized in January right? And the incident happened in 2019

what if those characters were indeed blacklisted...?

Alberto really did mess up, But as long as he learn from his mistake he's okay on my Book

On the Actual Topic, This is what I like to call "Harada Theory"

Pretty much, The theory is that Harada Might have known that these characters were not coming, so he listed them in Particular

Someone mentioned how Steve and Heihachi were in the Chain, but they weren't mentioned right

So I don't think these characters were "Blocked" just because of a Twitter Message, but that the message might suggest that they wouldn't be in the game anyway.

Between Sora, Doomguy, Master Chief, Jonsey, Crash, and Arle

-Sora, Doomguy, and Master Chief have all been somewhat Soft Deconfirmed, either in interviews, by Rumors, or perhaps another character from their company getting in.

-Jonsey...well there's nothing to say about him, but it's possible he might not have a precense

-Crash is an enigma, but honestly, The fact that Sakurai on his Picture of the Day made multiple references to the Crash Series out of the blue, might suggest that Crash might not be in the picture. What people take as a Hint towards Crash, I take as a potential indicator he's not in the pass at all

-The Interview talking about Arle in Smash is one of those ones where it's not sure on her position in Smash, whether she's soft Deconfirmed or not. There's also the thing with her Social media account repeatedly mentioning or Tagging Smash announcements, which could suggest...something I don't know.

The only Characters that I think are Definitive Soft Deconfirmed without this Theory are Sora, Doomguy, and Master Chief, But I think Arle and Crash might have some indicators they are soft deconfimed, with Jonsey being weird. Also I like to mention that I don't say Hard Deconfirmed because I'm leaving room for them to perhaps become playable, but I Personally really don't expect any of these characters anymore, and this Theory is not why, but just an added cherry on top

 

[SharkLord]

Game by NAMCO, not Nintendo. Both Nintendo and ZUN licensed out characters for a NAMCO Game. I'm talking something directly produced by either party. So my thoughts haven't changed a single bit.

I mean you said any way, shape, or form without specifying. That's still Touhou characters with Nintendo characters. That goes under the folder of any way, shape, or form.

Plus, there's that one time Nintendo sold music arranges at Reitaisai, which is a convention dedicated specifically to Touhou.
https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/4gpjs0 I think that works too.

 

[Idon]

Thus why I highlight Creator as a frontrunner for a DFO Character.

Well, I don't think Creator has a cursed demon arm either unless you're referring to something else lol.

 

[CureParfait]

Well, I don't think Creator has a cursed demon arm either unless you're referring to something else lol.

Yeah, I think he might be referring to Dark Knight.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I have no idea what this game is, so I can't really comment on anything. Though if it really is so huge in South Korea, maybe Nintendo would consider it? I remember that one theory about how the DLC characters were meant to appeal to specific regions, but clearly it didn't pan out...

Also, where's my ArcSys-My Hero Academia fighting game? I DEMAND AN ARCSYS-MY HERO ACADEMIA FIGHTING GAME!!!!!!!

I want an ArcSys made TMNT game... Real bad.

 

[ahemtoday]

This is gonna sound weird, but I honestly think ArcSys could make a killer Sonic fighting game.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I mean you said any way, shape, or form without specifying. That's still Touhou characters with Nintendo characters. That goes under the folder of any way, shape, or form.

Plus, there's that one time Nintendo sold music arranges at Reitaisai, which is a convention dedicated specifically to Touhou.
https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/4gpjs0 I think that works too.

Okay I didn't even know Nintendo and SEGA sold Remixes at a Touhou Convention. Neat.

 

[Louie G.]

Agreed. Its one thing to do so in the context of base game content where there's no risk and a region unfamiliar with the character can get a feel for them at no real cost (see Ridley, Little Mac); its quite another to outright have them as paid DLC and/or as part of a blind Fighter's Pass.

This has been the logic I've abided by too, but there's also some nuance to it that I wanna acknowledge.

Like Terry, obviously - he's a character who a lot of Smash fans were particularly unfamiliar with. But it helped that Sakurai could point fans toward accessible releases of classic titles on Switch, and Sakurai even highlighting some of his personal favorites, as opposed to leaving people sorta in the dark on how to get into a character's series in the first place. SNK having such a vast library of classic games available on the eshop does wonders for this.

This is why I've remained more optimistic about someone like Arle, for example, who has four games currently accessible on Switch - including Puyo's first game, the definitive game of her series (Puyo 2) and the newest entries in Puyo Tetris 1 and 2. Despite being a character / series that certain fans may be unfamiliar with, the ability is there to bring attention toward official releases on Nintendo hardware.
Would be nice of Sega to localize some more of the Japan-only Puyo games, though.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I think an ArcSys Godzilla fighting game has mountains of potential.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I want an ArcSys made TMNT game... Real bad.

JoJo needs to happen next Anime Wise!

 

[7NATOR]

This is gonna sound weird, but I honestly think ArcSys could make a killer Sonic fighting game.

That's not really weird.

I think Arc System can really make a Fighting game That fits Sonic style and mechanics

DBFZ is like the Fastest Fighting game in terms of Speed, So I think they know how to capture the Speed of the franchise and stuff

I also think because Sonic's Main Cast is not Super large, you can get alot of the Mainstays, and perhaps make some deep cuts as well like Mephiles, Infinite (cause I don't know if they bring him back) and Dark Sonic

I think they should base the game to be geared more towards casuals, so the One Button Specials like what Granblue does, perhaps one Mechanic that's very versatile like the Burst in Guilty Gear, and Please allow A lot of Combo freedom. Super Transformations would also be sick

I rather they also try to make the Character's movesets as expansive as they can be, rather than try to shove alot of Sonic characters in there.

I also think they should perhaps take the MVC3 Approach and not worry so much about the balance (though they should take it into account), but more the fun of the characters. Let Sonic get Crazy after all.

And Hopefully they make a Killer Story.

 

[Technomage]

Getting off topic here, aren't we? Imma try changing the subject back to something more related to Smash DLC. Like, what kind of extra bosses do you want added?

 

[shinhed-echi]

That's not really weird.

I think Arc System can really make a Fighting game That fits Sonic style and mechanics

DBFZ is like the Fastest Fighting game in terms of Speed, So I think they know how to capture the Speed of the franchise and stuff

I also think because Sonic's Main Cast is not Super large, you can get alot of the Mainstays, and perhaps make some deep cuts as well like Mephiles, Infinite (cause I don't know if they bring him back) and Dark Sonic

I think they should base the game to be geared more towards casuals, so the One Button Specials like what Granblue does, perhaps one Mechanic that's very versatile like the Burst in Guilty Gear, and Please allow A lot of Combo freedom. Super Transformations would also be sick

I rather they also try to make the Character's movesets as expansive as they can be, rather than try to shove alot of Sonic characters in there.

And Hopefully they make a Killer Story.

Oh man, Sonic would be another amazing fighter if made by ArcSys.
Showdown's roster is godlike, if they used the same one... (And added Jet the Hawk) it would be the perfect Sonic spin-off.

 

[JOJONumber691]

That's not really weird.

I think Arc System can really make a Fighting game That fits Sonic style and mechanics

DBFZ is like the Fastest Fighting game in terms of Speed, So I think they know how to capture the Speed of the franchise and stuff

I also think because Sonic's Main Cast is not Super large, you can get alot of the Mainstays, and perhaps make some deep cuts as well like Mephiles, Infinite (cause I don't know if they bring him back) and Dark Sonic

I think they should base the game to be geared more towards casuals, so the One Button Specials like what Granblue does, perhaps one Mechanic that's very versatile like the Burst in Guilty Gear, and Please allow A lot of Combo freedom. Super Transformations would also be sick

I rather they also try to make the Character's movesets as expansive as they can be, rather than try to shove alot of Sonic characters in there.

I also think they should perhaps take the MVC3 Approach and not worry so much about the balance (though they should take it into account), but more the fun of the characters. Let Sonic get Crazy after all.

And Hopefully they make a Killer Story.

Toei Sonic my baby! That and maybe some redesigns to bring back Sonic's Edge could make this game BRILLIANT!

 

[AreJay25]

I think an ArcSys Godzilla fighting game has mountains of potential.

This was actually a rumor last year if I recall. Was supposed to be revealed at Microsoft's E3.

I'm so disappointed that it wasn't real.

 

[7NATOR]

Since Sonic was Mentioned though, now is the best time to do this

So, I think I May have "Finished" My Case for Shadow in Fighter Pass 2 essay. I say May because it's possible there may need to be some changes in the future, but I think most of what I wanted to write is in this essay

Also note, this isn't meant to convince people that Shadow is a lock, or that Shadow will be in Fighter Pass 2. I just want to make Shadow seem like a Realistic and Viable candidate.

If you want to read it, Great. If you don't, that's also fine. It's right here anytime. Here's the Essay

-------------------------------------------------

That's what alot of people might Think, But here is...

The Case for Shadow the Hedgehog in Fighter Pass 2

Table of Contents


---------------------

Counter Argument Section

Assist Trophy
-Precedent
-Why Precedent may/may not be upheld
-Bomberman
-Shadow is a Veteran Assist Trophy

Similarities to Sonic
-”Shadow would have been echo in Base Game”
-Lucina
-Dark Pit
-Daisy
-Richter
-Chrom
-Dark Samus
-Ken
-Sega
-Conclusions
-Benefits
-Downsides


Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles
-What Merits/Advantages does Shadow have over these 3


Would Shadow really be the First Assist Promotion
-Waluigi
-Alucard
-Shovel Knight
-Isaac
-Skull Kid


-------------------------------------------------------------

Shadow’s Merits (using Sourcegaming’s Merit rating)

-Iconicness/Recognizability
-Popularity
-Moveset Viability
-Ease of Implementation
-Relevance
-3rd Party (Sega)


-----------------------------------------------

Miscellaneous

-Shadow's Spirit
-Shadow's Assist Interesting Mechanic
-Legacy XP
-Sakurai likes Edgy Characters

Spoiler: Assist Trophy

Spoiler: Precedent

-Arguing just based on the concept of Precedent is heavily flawed. The reasons for this is we have seen many Patterns set by precedent get broken, in just this Fighter Pass

Min-Min broke the Precedent of Spirit Characters not being Playable

Steve Broke the Precedent of 3rd Party Companies not getting more than 1 character in DLC

Sephiroth broke the Precedent of 3rd Party Franchises not getting a unique secondary character, especially during DLC

One could say the best precedent when it comes to Speculation is Precedent itself getting broken with the Characters, with that being said

Spoiler: Does the Precedent of Assists not being Playable hold up?

-Everytime an Assist Character has been promoted (Little Mac, Dark Samus, Isabelle), Their Assist Trophy is not in the game as well. All 3 of these characters were Base Roster Newcomers

-Sakurai made a Statement about Waluigi in Smash 4 that is perhaps the “Best” evidence toward the Assist Trophy rule being an actual thing

AAdgXTAAAUq-.jpg (504×500) (cbsistatic.com)

List of Director's Room Miiverse posts/Archive 3 - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

The thing with this statement is that it’s not specific, in that there are different interpretations you could take from this statement, it could be interpreted as

“Waluigi is Not a Playable Character because he’s an Assist Trophy”

“Waluigi is an Assist Trophy because he’s not a Playable character”

Both statements might sound the same, but have wildly different meanings

The Former suggest that Waluigi being an Assist Trophy is the reason that Waluigi is not a Playable character. The latter suggests that for whatever reason, whether it be because Waluigi did not have enough merits or was out-prioritized, Waluigi could not make it as a Playable character, so he was made an Assist instead. In this case, Waluigi being an Assist is not the reason he is unplayable, but it’s the conclusion of him not being a playable character.


-Sakurai in Ultimate’s Life Cycle has not gone out of his way to confirm the Assist Trophy rule as being a thing. The reason this is important is that he, in Ultimate’s Lifecycle, went out of his way to Re-Confirm an official rule in “No Anime/Manga/Non-video game Origin Characters” in Smash.

Sakurai maintains that manga characters will not be allowed in the Smash Bros. series | GoNintendo

-Assists being NPC’s with 3D Models is a Major factor against them, however we see with Characters like Chrom, who is in Robin’s final Smash, that this is not an issue that will disqualify a character. Of course Chrom is an echo fighter, but the point stands

Chrom also uses the Final Smash model as the basis for his fighter model, so not only does this show that NPC Assets can be used for Playable Characters, but that it might even be easier than regular characters.

-Another Argument is that If an Assist Fighter is Promoted, the Assist has to be taken out of the game, meaning the Assist Trophy was a waste and is also actively taking out content

There is already programming in place though for Assists to not show up under certain conditions however. For example Alucard can’t be summoned on the Wii Fit Stage.

Alucard - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

-Ultimate is a different Case from Brawl and Smash 4 in that Ultimate has extra DLC in the form of Fighter Pass 2.

Brawl never had DLC, so the base roster was all that we got, And Smash Ultimate’s DLC Has lasted/will Last much longer than Wii U’s DLC.

Spoiler: Bomberman

-Bomberman getting a Deluxe Mii Costume in Fighter Pass 2 is important when it comes to the Speculation of Assist Characters

The Main reason is that it shows that Assist Characters are having their roles reconsidered. Fighter Pass 2 was not a thing that was inevitable, otherwise Min-Min likely wouldn’t have a Spirit in the game. There was a possibility that Fighter Pass 1 is all we would have ended up with

In an case, Bomberman, who was already an Assist Trophy, was decided by the Dev team to also get a Mii Costume in the DLC

Bomberman’s Mii Costume is a Deluxe, which means the “Costume” is not just an outfit the Mii’s wear, but a Model Change of some kind. Bomberman shares this distinction with Sans, Cuphead, and Vault Boy

Bomberman’s Mii Costume Model is the Assist Trophy Model that has been Smoothed out in terms of Polygons and such, and fitted to a Brawler’s Skeleton. This once again shows that Asset Re-use from Assist Models is a very viable thing

AAcYEnAABBII.jpg (536×421) (cbsistatic.com)

(Look how similar the models look. That’s the Costume and Assist in the same picture)

Bomberman’s Mii Costume, being DLC, is a Paid Mii Costume you have to buy. One of the arguments against Assist Promotions is that the Smash team wouldn’t want to Sell a Character that already has a 3D Model in the game, as it could be equated to a scam. However Bomberman is being sold for 75 cents. Granted it’s not as much as a Fighter, but it’s something you have to pay for, even more prominent that the Mii Costume is Bomberman’s Assist Model

When Sakurai was talking about Bomberman’s Mii Costume, he mentioned that while Bomberman is an Assist Trophy, He is also a Mii Costume. Sakurai did not state Assists were deconfirmations

https://youtu.be/_Sp5o1JJdDk?t=2423

4:23-4:45

Spoiler: Shadow is a Veteran Assist Trophy

-The reason I Mention this fact is that with Fighter Pass 2 in the mix, the thing with that is that Fighter Pass 2 was not a certain thing to happen. If Min-Min Spirit is any indication, while it might have been in the plans, it was unsure if it would be greenlit

The important thing about this is that if Shadow did not have an Assist Trophy, but Fighter Pass 2 did not happen, then Shadow would just not have his Assist in the game, and that would be a downgrade in content for Shadow

Shadow has been an Assist Trophy for 3 Games now, and he’s a Popular Character in the same vain Waluigi and Lyn are.

The thing to notice is that unlike the Playable Roster, not every Assist was brought back, and Assist Trophies do tend to get cut

Assist Trophy - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

Some Prominent cuts from Smash 4 into Ultimate include Saki, Tingle, and Magnus (though Saki got a Mii Costume). Saki, Tingle, and Magnus were seen as less priority for Returning Assist, and were cut for other Assists, probably because they weren’t as Popular

Something to also consider is the Assist that were not in Smash 4, but returned from Brawl: Gray Fox and Isaac

Metal Gear was not represented at all in Smash 4, but is in Smash Ultimate, so Gray Fox not being in Smash 4 but in Ultimate makes sense, but Isaac Really only returned as an Assist because of his Fan Demand and Popularity

Isaac went from no presence in Smash 4 (except Music tracks), to having an Upgraded Assist, His Franchise having the most Spirits of a Non-Playable Franchise (along with Rhythm Heaven, which was planned to have Playable character in Smash 4), and a Mii Costume

The important thing to note is that Isaac having his Assist return shows he’s more of a Priority than characters like Saki, Tingle, and Magnus, yet because Saki, Tingle, and Magnus are not Assists, they are theoretically more likely just on the basis of them not being Assists

All of that applies to Shadow, if Shadow did not have his Assist Return, it would say he’s on the same level as characters that couldn’t have their Assists Return, when that is not the case.

Spoiler: Similarities to Sonic

Spoiler: "Shadow would have been an echo”

-Before we get any further, yes Shadow could theoretically work as an Echo fighter. He has Very Similar body type to Sonic, and the Moves Sonic does aren’t impossible for Shadow to do. Homing attack and Spindash in particular are Moves Shadow has been shown to do

With that being said, this whole thing about how “If Nintendo couldn’t justify Shadow as an echo, Why would he be DLC” is kind of dismissive of Shadow on his own Merits I’ll say. With that being said, I’ll look at Each Echo Fighter in Smash Ultimate and compare them to Shadow

Spoiler: Lucina

-Lucina, by the time she had gotten in, Had only been in One game

-Lucina in Canon Fights like Chrom, however according to Sakurai’s Official Statement, Chrom was considered to be the main Newcomer for Fire Emblem Awakening, but that he couldn’t come up with a Moveset that wasn’t “a Mix of Marth and Ike”. Lucina would be the same

“Are The Characters Dancing?” Sakurai’s Famitsu column vol. 430– on Wii Fit Trainer, Megaman, Villager, and a little Chrom – Source Gaming

-Robin was the Main Newcomer in Smash 4. One thing you will realize about not just the clones in Ultimate, but throughout the series, is that a Majority of the clones come from Franchises that get Unique Newcomers in that Same Game

Spoiler: Dark Pit

-Dark Pit only had 1 Appearance.

-Palutena was the Main Kid Icarus Newcomer in Smash 4

Spoiler: Daisy

-I will say that Daisy should not have been a Carbon copy of Peach. I think Peach’s more aggressive looking Melee Moveset would have been a better fit for Daisy

With that being said

-Daisy herself does not have the most material to separate herself from the rest of the cast and Peach. There’s Sports Equipment, but that’s something Any Mario character can equip and it’s not something that defines her as a Character

-Piranha Plant was the Unique Mario Newcomer, however with him being Bonus DLC, it’s unknown if he really was planned from the start

Spoiler: Richter

-Simon and Richter share their moveset, as noted by Sakurai. You could argue that Simon is instead Richter’s Echo

Spoiler: Chrom

-As explained in the Lucina Section, Sakurai was planning to make Chrom the main Fire Emblem Newcomer of Smash 4, but couldn’t come up with a moveset that wasn’t just “a Mix of Marth and Ike”.

“Are The Characters Dancing?” Sakurai’s Famitsu column vol. 430– on Wii Fit Trainer, Megaman, Villager, and a little Chrom – Source Gaming

As Roy’s Echo, Chrom kind does play like that mix, combined with an Up B Like Ike.

-Depending on how Early they were planned, Byleth was probably intended to be the main Fire Emblem Newcomer

Spoiler: Dark Samus

-Dark Samus is probably the Echo that’s used as an example the most when Talking about how Shadow would just be an echo

This is because Dark Samus has her own Abilities in Metroid Prime, and even showcased some of them as an Assist Trophy in Smash 4. However with that said, here are some factors to Consider

-Dark Samus has not been relevant in over a Decade by the time she was revealed for Smash Ultimate. Her Last Appearance was around 2007 with Metroid Prime 3 (Not Including Smash).

-Ridley also was the Unique Newcomer for Ultimate. In that vein Dark Samus could be seen as some kind of sacrifice

Spoiler: Ken

-Ken has his Unique stuff like his Kick and unique Properties. There’s nothing else to go from here

Spoiler: Sega

-Remember that Sega has to agree to make Shadow an Echo of Sonic

Now I know that Shadow has played like Sonic quite a few times in the Sonic series, but that has been a trend that’s been shared by Many characters. Tails in his debuted played like Sonic, and a lot of the time, except for one ability, Sonic Characters a lot of the time play like each other, it’s the type of game Sonic is

This wouldn’t automatically Translate to Smash though. Now I don’t know what the Discussions are between Sega and Nintendo, but the Possibility that Sega is not comfortable with Smash making Shadow an echo Fighter is very realistic. They would likely have their own idea of how they want Shadow to play, or what Abilities to use.

Spoiler: Conclusion

Pretty much the thing to consider is that Shadow himself has the Popularity, Moveset Material, Requests, legacy, Relevance etc, to make it as his own Character.

Echo Fighters in the Series (and clones in general) have typically been characters that either lack one of the above Merits, and/or they are added along with another, Unique, Character from their franchise

There’s also no New Sonic Newcomer that was added Base game, and with there being confirmed no Echoes in the DLC, if a New Sonic Character were to be added, they would be unique

Now If you personally think Eggman, Tails, or Knuckles would be the Character they would choose to fill that Spot, than that is up to you. Shadow though has a good argument going for him being a Unique Character. As such this whole thing with “Shadow would have been in Base Game as an echo” is not something that should stop all further discussions of Shadow as DLC

Spoiler: Benefits

-Shadow’s Similarities to Sonic benefits him from a Developmental Standpoint, and a Moveset Design Standpoint


-From a Developmental Standpoint, Shadow could reasonably use Sonic’s Skeleton to make Rigging Easier, and also Animating Easier (and that also doesn’t go into re-using some animations)


-From a Moveset Standpoint (and some of these points go hand in hand with Development), Shadow’s Similarities to Sonic allows Shadow to reasonably make use of Some of Sonic’s Unused Moves (Mostly from the Modern Era). Moves like the Light Speed Dash, Boost Attack, Black Tornado, and etc would make sense to be included

The other thing is that it would help Visualizing a Moveset easier. Shadow is meant to Rival Sonic, but he has his own Edge and Flair to everything he does that separates himself from Sonic. With Sonic already in Smash, Sakurai, Sega, and the Rest of the Dev team can Compare Sonic’s Moveset in Smash and then Visualize how Shadow would move, How Shadow would attack

This is also in combination with him already having material for his moveset, with Sonic Battle being a Prime Example (and that Contrasts Sonic taking a good amount of his Moves from Sonic the Fighters)

This also isn’t just for Attacks, but Sonic’s Stats are a good base for seeing what would fit Shadow.

Spoiler: Downsides

-Shadow having kind of a Similar Visual Silhouette to Sonic Might be bad from this Philosophy

https://youtu.be/w8H5QkOIT_s

GDC-Scan-03.png (1515×1076) (wp.com)

Sakurai’s GDC 2008 Presentation Slides – Source Gaming

Granted the youtube video is just an interpretation, but something to consider



-No Matter how unique he would hypothetically turn out, as a DLC Character, there might be more apprehension because he does look similar to another character on the Roster.

Spoiler: Eggman, Tails, Knuckles

What merit does Shadow have over these 3?

-2nd Most Popular Character in the Sonic Fanbase

https://youtu.be/DbrBpQVwINo

Sega (through Eggman) themselves saying He (Shadow) is the 2nd Most Popular Character, behind Sonic

-Shadow is Head of Sonic Team, Iizuka’s, Favorite Character

Takashi Iizuka

Takashi Iizuka (飯塚 隆, Īzuka Takashi?) is a key producer, director and designer within Sonic Team. Early in his career, he worked directly under Hirokazu Yasuhara as a senior game designer on Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and quickly progressed to direct NiGHTS into Dreams and supervise development of...

sonic.fandom.com

An Interview With Sonic Team’s Takashi Iizuka About ‘Sonic Runners’ – TouchArcade

SEGA's latest game featuring their iconic blue mascot, Sonic Runners , finally came out of soft launch late last week, and if the successes of previous Sonic games on iOS are anything to go by, ...

toucharcade.com

-Shadow has his own interesting Mechanics different from the other 3 Sonic Characters (More in Moveset Viability) that revolve around Space and Time Manipulation at the least


-Shadow would be the easiest Character to Implement, has he has Very Similar Body type to Sonic and could reasonably use his Skeleton, and also Has an Assist Trophy Model.

-Shadow’s debut Game, SA2, was the game that got Nintendo Audiences into the Sonic Franchise.

-Now this doesn’t mean Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles don’t have their own merits, they have merits that Rival or even surpass Shadow in Some aspects, but it’s not like Shadow has no reason to get in over these 3, he does.

Spoiler: Would Shadow really be the First Assist Promotion?

Spoiler: Waluigi

-Yes, Waluigi is the most popular requested Assist Trophy

-With that being said, the main thing to consider is that there is more to the discussion than requests though

-Shadow is more important to his Franchise than Waluigi is. I don’t know the full details of this Mario Mandate, but it seems to prevent Waluigi from apperaincing in a Mainline Mario game. Now Waluigi does appear and Smash, and the Mario Spinoffs are very popular games, but still

-Shadow has more consistent Movepool and Abilities than Waluigi does, which would make conceptualizing a Moveset for him easier than with Waluigi, not trying to say Waluigi does not have any abilities, just that they are very inconsistent

-Mario already has 9 Characters in this game, and 2 of them were newcomers to this game, on the other hand Sonic, which has been very requested to get a 2nd Character, has not gotten one yet.

Sakurai notes that Representation is factored into the character choices

GDC-Scan-01.png (1515×1076) (wp.com)

Sakurai’s GDC 2008 Presentation Slides – Source Gaming

-With that being said, I will say that Waluigi is a very big competitor to Shadow for the Assist Promotion spot (If there were only one).

Spoiler: Alucard

-Alucard was considered to be the Castlevania rep according to Sakurai, but instead went with Simon/Richter

-However keep in Mind that Most characters that get in don’t have Sakurai if they were considered beforehand.

Ridley, Banjo, and Min-Min (through ARMS) were the only characters that Sakurai talked about in a Column before they got in.

-Alucard is very popular within his Franchise, but so is Shadow, so they are on the Same Wavelength. Sonic hasn’t gotten a New character in this game unlike Castlevania though

Spoiler: Shovel Knight

-Not much to say about Shovel Knight vs Shadow. I will say Shadow has been a more recurring Character for about 2 Decades, and has gone around more than Shovel Knight. With that being said, not much else to say

Spoiler: Isaac

-Isaac is a heavily requested character on the same wavelength as Geno I’d say (when he’s not an Assist). With that being said, the problem he has is that his Franchise is on hiatus.

I would say a Character/Franchise on Hiatus would have a harder time getting on the DLC Roster than the Base Roster due to the fact that DLC roster has to sell on their Character/Franchise Merit, and is not included with a Full Packaged game.

Now Banjo is kind of the exception, but Banjo does at least get used in Rare Replay, and Phil Spencer was a huge advocate for the idea. It also expanded the Nintendo and Microsoft Relationship

In terms of Relevance and outside Smash Popularity, Shadow has Isaac beat.

Spoiler: Skull Kid

-Not much to say on Skull Kid honestly, except that the Ancient Armor Costume might imply we not getting another Zelda character, but that’s not really something that deals with Skull Kid’s merits or anything like that

Spoiler: Conclusion (Small)

Overall, I do think Shadow has a good shot to be the First Assist Promotion. I would say the Main Competition is Waluigi, but I do think there is stuff that Shadow has over Waluigi.

Spoiler: Shadow's Merits

Uses Sourcegaming’s Merit checking box

https://youtu.be/ow-k9ZLFaRk?t=100

1:40-2:10

Spoiler: Iconicness/Recognizability

-Now compared to Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles, Shadow is probably not as recognizable as them because he wasn’t in the OG Trilogy of Games, and his Appearances in Other Media and Shows tend to be more sparse (As an example, he’s only appeared in 2 Episodes of Sonic Boom, while Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles have frequent appearances

With that being said, Shadow is still a heavily Recognizable character. He still does make appearances that leave out other Modern Era Characters. He’s appeared in Sonic Boom (Cartoon), Lego Dimensions (with Big and Chaos), and both the Sonic All Star Racing games He’s very popular with the Nintendo Crowd since his game was the one that exposed them to Sonic

I also think he benefits from Having a Similarities to Sonic because even if they don’t exactly know who he is, they can still recognize he comes from Sonic

In Japan, (and this goes for Sonic in general), He Might be more niche because Sonic isn’t as big in Japan as everywhere else. At the least, among Sonic fans in Japan he’s recognizable and such.

Spoiler: Popularity

-As Mentioned, Shadow is the 2nd Most Popular Sonic Character, behind Sonic

-In terms of Smash Requests, Shadow, along with Tails and Knuckles have been very requested characters since Sonic got in, and there were even requests for these 3 even before Sonic got in. Now whoever of these characters dominates sometimes Depends. At one Point Knuckles was the most popular request (Smash 4) at least with the hardcore fourms. On Miiverse and Twitter Shadow was especially popular. IGN Rallied fans to voted for Tails.

Eggman has definitely been more requested for Ultimate’s lifecycle, regarding DLC

Shadow’s Popularity within Smash Fanbase exploded during Ultimate’s Base game Speculation cycle, along with Waluigi, Skull Kid, Geno, Isaac, Ashley, and others

-You’ll 99% of the time see Another Sonic character in Smash fanmods or Fangames. It usually varies betweens Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, or a combination of the three, with Rarely other Sonic characters like Metal Sonic

There’s even a Brawl Modpack that’s exclusively about Sonic Characters

SONIC SMASH BROS EDITION - Brawl Mod - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiMhREYOZIA

Spoiler: Moveset Viability

Chaos powers | Sonic News Network | Fandom

Spoiler: Moveset Viability

Light Speed Dash | Sonic News Network | Fandom

Boost | Sonic News Network | Fandom

Black Tornado | Sonic News Network | Fandom


-As a unique character, Shadow does have the following abilities and potential Moveset ideas to Implement

Sonic’s unused Abilities like Light Speed Dash, Boost Attack, Black Tornado, and more.

Chaos Control, which allows control over Space and Time. Shadow usually uses these Abilities in an Aggressive manner or to Show off. Shadow will probably have a lot of Teleportation in his Moveset, in regards to Mobility and potentially Rushdown abilities, like Teleport Combos, or Moves with Teleports ingrained into them

Teleports so far have mostly just been a Recovery tool, as you’re put in Freefall if used in the air. To stay true to the Canon, Shadow’s Teleport will probably be used less as a Recovery Tool, and more for pressuring the Opponent

Shadow can also Slow and/or Freeze time, which could be the Highest Risk/Reward move if Implemented in a balanced manner

Chaos Spear is a move that has had different functions over the years. Shadow can fire one Strong Projectile, or a Group of Smaller Projectiles, or fire one after the other. He can make the Spears home in. He can fire it into the Air to Make it Rain. Combined with the Concept of Manipulating Space and Time, could be used as Delayed projectile of some kind. It’s a very versatile projectile

Chaos Blast is an Explosive Technique that has Shadow surround himself in Chaos Energy. Kind of like Magic Burst from Hero, though not tied to RNG

Shadow has had a Boost Mode Mechanic of some kind in games like Shadow the Hedgehog and 06, and also shown off in other Media like the comics and Sonic X. By Removing the Inhibitor rings on his ARMS, he can Power himself up and unlock destructive abilities (like the Aforementioned Chaos Blast). This tires himself out though

I could see this working as a Transformation you can activate at anytime, which is a Far cry from Other transformations as you either have to charge them or you get them by taking damage or something like that. The Downside would either that you have to Leave yourself open after the Transformation Dies out, or it Works like Kaioken from DBZ and you take Damage as you’re in this mode

There’s also other Techniques he’s shown in games like Sonic Battle, along with his Rocket Skates. Like with Ridley, who doesn’t use his wings in battle, but does here, Shadow would likely make use of the Flames under his Rocket Skates. Legacy XP is a Example of this concept

Spoiler: Ease of Implementation

-Shadow has a Similar body type to Sonic type, so he could reasonably make use of Sonic’s Skeleton for rigging and perhaps Animating, and the such, allowing for Easier Development

-Shadow also has an Assist Model in game. As we saw with Bomberman, and other Mii costumes like Isaac and Skull Kid, Assist Assets can be repurposed for other avenues like Mii costumes, and Chrom, as a Final Smash NPC, shows that NPC Models can be repurposed for Non-Mii Characters, though Shadow should probably have his model Smoothed out

Post that shows the Similarities between Isaac Assist and Isaac Mii (it’s the same)

Sunrise Up Again! Isaac for Smash Ultimate DLC | Page 972 | Smashboards

-Shadow’s Toolkit along with his Speed would be quite a task to balance, but balancing would be easier in that there’s more time to allocate to it, Since Shadow has the above Advantages in his favor

Spoiler: Relevance

-Shadow is heavily relevant to the Sonic Franchise, as even if he’s not in the Starring role, he does make frequent Appearances. He was made Playable in forces after a Decade of not being Playable in Mainline Game, and he’s been on the cover for Forces, TSR, and the Mobile game

-Sonic as a Franchise has been relevant as well, With Mania and Forces (well better or worse) were games that released in 2017. The Mobile game Sonic Forces Speed Battle (or just titled Sonic Forces these days), The Movie that came out in 2020, and Comics and Licensing deals. Sonic will be Heavily relevant in 2020 (with the movie) and 2021, as 2021 is the 30th anniversary, and there are games planned for the 30th anniversary. 2020/2021 are the years Fighter Pass 2 will be in Production

Spoiler: 3rd Party Franchise (Sega)

-Sega likes to License Sonic out. They’ve licensed him in OK KO, Lego Dimensions, Ninjala, Fall Guys to name a Few Appearances

-Sonic has always had a good amount of the supporting case as Trophies/Spirits. Shadow has been an Assist for 3 Games and Knuckles was a newly added one this game

While the Colors with Sonic and the Initial refusal of Sonic in Brawl might imply Sega is strict with Sonic, there’s more to suggest that they are open to collabs and such like that

Spoiler: Conclusion

Overall, Shadow has good stats in all the merits presented here. He’s Iconic/Recognizable character, Popular both in and outside of Smash (though he’s also a very controversial character), Has ALot of potential for a unique Playstyle, despite his similarities to Sonic, Easier to Implement than a usual Character because he has assets ingame he can reasonable re-use, and he’s a Relevant Character and will continue to be relevant in years to come. Sega is also very into Licensing out their characters, Like Sonic and the gang.

Spoiler: Miscellaneous

This section is talking about things that might seem very Conspiracy theory, or not definite. Keep that in mind when reading

Spoiler: Shadow's Spirit

-Shadow, along with Eggman, is the only Sonic Character to have a 4 Star Spirit. Shadow’s 4 Star Spirit is Super Shadow, which completes Super Sonic. This could imply that the team see Shadow in the same wavelength as Sonic in a lot of aspects, especially since Shadow is the only character to have a Super form in this game

List of spirits (Sonic the Hedgehog series) - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

Shadow’s Spirit Battle also does not use the Dark Sonic Costume, but the Neon blue one, Which confirms the team does not see the Dark Sonic Costume as a Shadow Replacement. In the Series history, Character alts have been a thing to represent Characters unplayable on the roster, as Daisy, Dark Samus, Chrom, and Wolf (in Smash 4) will tell you. Characters like Waluigi have Alts that represent them



List of spirits (Sonic the Hedgehog series) - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

Spoiler: Shadow’s Assist Trophy is interesting

Besides upgraded Animations, Shadow now has a 2nd Phase where he completely Stops time. If you hit an Opponent when they are in Stopped in time, they react to the hit, but don’t get Knocked back because they are frozen in time

There is no other Character, Boss, NPC or place where this “Complete Stop in time” Mechanic is used. At best, the Regular Time slow is used for other Mechanics (Timer, Witch Time, Dharkon’s Void attack)

A Potential theory is that They might have used Shadow’s Assist Trophy to test this type of mechanic, since Complete Stop in time is completely unique to the Smash series, possibly for a future character in DLC...Like Shadow himself

Spoiler: Legacy XP

-Legacy XP was a Mod that had Geno, Waluigi, Metal Sonic, and Shadow (talking about Characters currently not in Ultimate)

However the Mod was at its most popular in May of 2018, a Month before Ultimate was officially revealed. This Mod also had Ridley in it. Ridley would be the big E3 Reveal along with Ultimate, and this Legacy XP Mod had people think it was the newest Smash game. This Mod was allowed to stay up

In March of 2020, The Mod was taken down by the Creators. Since then there’s been Speculation that the Mod was taken down because there was a Character in this Mod that will have a Presence in the DLC, Likely Playable

Nintendo does take things down, but they usually do them for a Reason. AM2R was Taken down, and Samus Returns (Nintendo’s Metroid 2 Remake) will come out around a year later, Mario Bros Battle Royale was taken down because Mario 35 was a thing, and more

Here’s some Screenshots and stuff from Papagenos to add to this discussion

proxy.php (400×212) (smashboards.com)

proxy.php (324×300) (smashboards.com)

proxy.php (1179×623) (smashboards.com)

papa (google.com)



Geno was a returning Mii costume from Smash 4, and his Mii costume is not Premium, but just the regular one Very Slightly changed, but barely noticeable.

It’s possible that if Nintendo Pressured the takedown of this Mod, They may have taken it down for the Regular Geno Mii costume...I doubt it though

If the Mod was taken down because of a Character, then the remaining options are Waluigi, Metal Sonic, and Shadow the Hedgehog. Your conclusions is up to you

Spoiler: Sakurai likes Edgy Characters

-in the Terry Presentation, he mentioned on how Iori Design was brilliant, and that puts focus on something that we should have noticed

https://youtu.be/yK3VltKv3JI?t=1550

25:50-26:03

Dark Pit, Meta Knight, Mewtwo, Dark Samus, Wolf… Sakurai is in love with Edgy Rival Character it seems

Shadow is Sonic’s “Edgy” Rival. Yes

This Concludes the Essay, I might make some edits to it, from perhaps your feedback, or if I think of something else, but until then, Sayanora! See you from the Shadows

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Me: I’m gonna surprise everyone by wanting to talk about Shantae of all characters instead of Elma
ALSO ME CUZ IM BACK ON MY ELMA BS:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

PLEASE

nintendo

do not do this to me

my heart cannot take it...

I neeeeeeeeeed iiiiiiiiitttttt

 

[pupNapoleon]

Crash racing will be free to play if you have switch online for a week. Interestingly, this is the second Activision game that had this offer, the first being Overwatch. Probbaly doesn't mean a lot for Smash speculation but still intersting that Activision are the few third party that had that offer (the other was Disgaea).

Also if you haven't already try the game. It's really that good.

That's weird. I'm still waiting for Crash 4 on the Switch.

 

[Technomage]

Since Sonic was Mentioned though, now is the best time to do this

So, I think I May have "Finished" My Case for Shadow in Fighter Pass 2 essay. I say May because it's possible there may need to be some changes in the future, but I think most of what I wanted to write is in this essay

Also note, this isn't meant to convince people that Shadow is a lock, or that Shadow will be in Fighter Pass 2. I just want to make Shadow seem like a Realistic and Viable candidate.

If you want to read it, Great. If you don't, that's also fine. It's right here anytime. Here's the Essay

-------------------------------------------------

View attachment 297565


That's what alot of people might Think, But here is...

The Case for Shadow the Hedgehog in Fighter Pass 2

Table of Contents


---------------------

Counter Argument Section

Assist Trophy
-Precedent
-Why Precedent may/may not be upheld
-Bomberman
-Shadow is a Veteran Assist Trophy

Similarities to Sonic
-”Shadow would have been echo in Base Game”
-Lucina
-Dark Pit
-Daisy
-Richter
-Chrom
-Dark Samus
-Ken
-Sega
-Conclusions
-Benefits
-Downsides


Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles
-What Merits/Advantages does Shadow have over these 3


Would Shadow really be the First Assist Promotion
-Waluigi
-Alucard
-Shovel Knight
-Isaac
-Skull Kid


-------------------------------------------------------------

Shadow’s Merits (using Sourcegaming’s Merit rating)

-Iconicness/Recognizability
-Popularity
-Moveset Viability
-Ease of Implementation
-Relevance
-3rd Party (Sega)


-----------------------------------------------

Miscellaneous

-Shadow's Spirit
-Shadow's Assist Interesting Mechanic
-Legacy XP
-Sakurai likes Edgy Characters

Spoiler: Assist Trophy

Spoiler: Precedent

-Arguing just based on the concept of Precedent is heavily flawed. The reasons for this is we have seen many Patterns set by precedent get broken, in just this Fighter Pass

Min-Min broke the Precedent of Spirit Characters not being Playable

Steve Broke the Precedent of 3rd Party Companies not getting more than 1 character in DLC

Sephiroth broke the Precedent of 3rd Party Franchises not getting a unique secondary character, especially during DLC

One could say the best precedent when it comes to Speculation is Precedent itself getting broken with the Characters, with that being said

Spoiler: Does the Precedent of Assists not being Playable hold up?

-Everytime an Assist Character has been promoted (Little Mac, Dark Samus, Isabelle), Their Assist Trophy is not in the game as well. All 3 of these characters were Base Roster Newcomers

-Sakurai made a Statement about Waluigi in Smash 4 that is perhaps the “Best” evidence toward the Assist Trophy rule being an actual thing

AAdgXTAAAUq-.jpg (504×500) (cbsistatic.com)

List of Director's Room Miiverse posts/Archive 3 - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

The thing with this statement is that it’s not specific, in that there are different interpretations you could take from this statement, it could be interpreted as

“Waluigi is Not a Playable Character because he’s an Assist Trophy”

“Waluigi is an Assist Trophy because he’s not a Playable character”

Both statements might sound the same, but have wildly different meanings

The Former suggest that Waluigi being an Assist Trophy is the reason that Waluigi is not a Playable character. The latter suggests that for whatever reason, whether it be because Waluigi did not have enough merits or was out-prioritized, Waluigi could not make it as a Playable character, so he was made an Assist instead. In this case, Waluigi being an Assist is not the reason he is unplayable, but it’s the conclusion of him not being a playable character.


-Sakurai in Ultimate’s Life Cycle has not gone out of his way to confirm the Assist Trophy rule as being a thing. The reason this is important is that he, in Ultimate’s Lifecycle, went out of his way to Re-Confirm an official rule in “No Anime/Manga/Non-video game Origin Characters” in Smash.

Sakurai maintains that manga characters will not be allowed in the Smash Bros. series | GoNintendo

-Assists being NPC’s with 3D Models is a Major factor against them, however we see with Characters like Chrom, who is in Robin’s final Smash, that this is not an issue that will disqualify a character. Of course Chrom is an echo fighter, but the point stands

Chrom also uses the Final Smash model as the basis for his fighter model, so not only does this show that NPC Assets can be used for Playable Characters, but that it might even be easier than regular characters.

-Another Argument is that If an Assist Fighter is Promoted, the Assist has to be taken out of the game, meaning the Assist Trophy was a waste and is also actively taking out content

There is already programming in place though for Assists to not show up under certain conditions however. For example Alucard can’t be summoned on the Wii Fit Stage.

Alucard - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

-Ultimate is a different Case from Brawl and Smash 4 in that Ultimate has extra DLC in the form of Fighter Pass 2.

Brawl never had DLC, so the base roster was all that we got, And Smash Ultimate’s DLC Has lasted/will Last much longer than Wii U’s DLC.

Spoiler: Bomberman

-Bomberman getting a Deluxe Mii Costume in Fighter Pass 2 is important when it comes to the Speculation of Assist Characters

The Main reason is that it shows that Assist Characters are having their roles reconsidered. Fighter Pass 2 was not a thing that was inevitable, otherwise Min-Min likely wouldn’t have a Spirit in the game. There was a possibility that Fighter Pass 1 is all we would have ended up with

In an case, Bomberman, who was already an Assist Trophy, was decided by the Dev team to also get a Mii Costume in the DLC

Bomberman’s Mii Costume is a Deluxe, which means the “Costume” is not just an outfit the Mii’s wear, but a Model Change of some kind. Bomberman shares this distinction with Sans, Cuphead, and Vault Boy

Bomberman’s Mii Costume Model is the Assist Trophy Model that has been Smoothed out in terms of Polygons and such, and fitted to a Brawler’s Skeleton. This once again shows that Asset Re-use from Assist Models is a very viable thing

AAcYEnAABBII.jpg (536×421) (cbsistatic.com)

(Look how similar the models look. That’s the Costume and Assist in the same picture)

Bomberman’s Mii Costume, being DLC, is a Paid Mii Costume you have to buy. One of the arguments against Assist Promotions is that the Smash team wouldn’t want to Sell a Character that already has a 3D Model in the game, as it could be equated to a scam. However Bomberman is being sold for 75 cents. Granted it’s not as much as a Fighter, but it’s something you have to pay for, even more prominent that the Mii Costume is Bomberman’s Assist Model

When Sakurai was talking about Bomberman’s Mii Costume, he mentioned that while Bomberman is an Assist Trophy, He is also a Mii Costume. Sakurai did not state Assists were deconfirmations

https://youtu.be/_Sp5o1JJdDk?t=2423

4:23-4:45

Spoiler: Shadow is a Veteran Assist Trophy

-The reason I Mention this fact is that with Fighter Pass 2 in the mix, the thing with that is that Fighter Pass 2 was not a certain thing to happen. If Min-Min Spirit is any indication, while it might have been in the plans, it was unsure if it would be greenlit

The important thing about this is that if Shadow did not have an Assist Trophy, but Fighter Pass 2 did not happen, then Shadow would just not have his Assist in the game, and that would be a downgrade in content for Shadow

Shadow has been an Assist Trophy for 3 Games now, and he’s a Popular Character in the same vain Waluigi and Lyn are.

The thing to notice is that unlike the Playable Roster, not every Assist was brought back, and Assist Trophies do tend to get cut

Assist Trophy - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

Some Prominent cuts from Smash 4 into Ultimate include Saki, Tingle, and Magnus (though Saki got a Mii Costume). Saki, Tingle, and Magnus were seen as less priority for Returning Assist, and were cut for other Assists, probably because they weren’t as Popular

Something to also consider is the Assist that were not in Smash 4, but returned from Brawl: Gray Fox and Isaac

Metal Gear was not represented at all in Smash 4, but is in Smash Ultimate, so Gray Fox not being in Smash 4 but in Ultimate makes sense, but Isaac Really only returned as an Assist because of his Fan Demand and Popularity

Isaac went from no presence in Smash 4 (except Music tracks), to having an Upgraded Assist, His Franchise having the most Spirits of a Non-Playable Franchise (along with Rhythm Heaven, which was planned to have Playable character in Smash 4), and a Mii Costume

The important thing to note is that Isaac having his Assist return shows he’s more of a Priority than characters like Saki, Tingle, and Magnus, yet because Saki, Tingle, and Magnus are not Assists, they are theoretically more likely just on the basis of them not being Assists

All of that applies to Shadow, if Shadow did not have his Assist Return, it would say he’s on the same level as characters that couldn’t have their Assists Return, when that is not the case.

Spoiler: Similarities to Sonic

Spoiler: "Shadow would have been an echo”

-Before we get any further, yes Shadow could theoretically work as an Echo fighter. He has Very Similar body type to Sonic, and the Moves Sonic does aren’t impossible for Shadow to do. Homing attack and Spindash in particular are Moves Shadow has been shown to do

With that being said, this whole thing about how “If Nintendo couldn’t justify Shadow as an echo, Why would he be DLC” is kind of dismissive of Shadow on his own Merits I’ll say. With that being said, I’ll look at Each Echo Fighter in Smash Ultimate and compare them to Shadow

Spoiler: Lucina

-Lucina, by the time she had gotten in, Had only been in One game

-Lucina in Canon Fights like Chrom, however according to Sakurai’s Official Statement, Chrom was considered to be the main Newcomer for Fire Emblem Awakening, but that he couldn’t come up with a Moveset that wasn’t “a Mix of Marth and Ike”. Lucina would be the same

“Are The Characters Dancing?” Sakurai’s Famitsu column vol. 430– on Wii Fit Trainer, Megaman, Villager, and a little Chrom – Source Gaming

-Robin was the Main Newcomer in Smash 4. One thing you will realize about not just the clones in Ultimate, but throughout the series, is that a Majority of the clones come from Franchises that get Unique Newcomers in that Same Game

Spoiler: Dark Pit

-Dark Pit only had 1 Appearance.

-Palutena was the Main Kid Icarus Newcomer in Smash 4

Spoiler: Daisy

-I will say that Daisy should not have been a Carbon copy of Peach. I think Peach’s more aggressive looking Melee Moveset would have been a better fit for Daisy

With that being said

-Daisy herself does not have the most material to separate herself from the rest of the cast and Peach. There’s Sports Equipment, but that’s something Any Mario character can equip and it’s not something that defines her as a Character

-Piranha Plant was the Unique Mario Newcomer, however with him being Bonus DLC, it’s unknown if he really was planned from the start

Spoiler: Richter

-Simon and Richter share their moveset, as noted by Sakurai. You could argue that Simon is instead Richter’s Echo

Spoiler: Chrom

-As explained in the Lucina Section, Sakurai was planning to make Chrom the main Fire Emblem Newcomer of Smash 4, but couldn’t come up with a moveset that wasn’t just “a Mix of Marth and Ike”.

“Are The Characters Dancing?” Sakurai’s Famitsu column vol. 430– on Wii Fit Trainer, Megaman, Villager, and a little Chrom – Source Gaming

As Roy’s Echo, Chrom kind does play like that mix, combined with an Up B Like Ike.

-Depending on how Early they were planned, Byleth was probably intended to be the main Fire Emblem Newcomer

Spoiler: Dark Samus

-Dark Samus is probably the Echo that’s used as an example the most when Talking about how Shadow would just be an echo

This is because Dark Samus has her own Abilities in Metroid Prime, and even showcased some of them as an Assist Trophy in Smash 4. However with that said, here are some factors to Consider

-Dark Samus has not been relevant in over a Decade by the time she was revealed for Smash Ultimate. Her Last Appearance was around 2007 with Metroid Prime 3 (Not Including Smash).

-Ridley also was the Unique Newcomer for Ultimate. In that vein Dark Samus could be seen as some kind of sacrifice

Spoiler: Ken

-Ken has his Unique stuff like his Kick and unique Properties. There’s nothing else to go from here

Spoiler: Sega

-Remember that Sega has to agree to make Shadow an Echo of Sonic

Now I know that Shadow has played like Sonic quite a few times in the Sonic series, but that has been a trend that’s been shared by Many characters. Tails in his debuted played like Sonic, and a lot of the time, except for one ability, Sonic Characters a lot of the time play like each other, it’s the type of game Sonic is

This wouldn’t automatically Translate to Smash though. Now I don’t know what the Discussions are between Sega and Nintendo, but the Possibility that Sega is not comfortable with Smash making Shadow an echo Fighter is very realistic. They would likely have their own idea of how they want Shadow to play, or what Abilities to use.

Spoiler: Conclusion

Pretty much the thing to consider is that Shadow himself has the Popularity, Moveset Material, Requests, legacy, Relevance etc, to make it as his own Character.

Echo Fighters in the Series (and clones in general) have typically been characters that either lack one of the above Merits, and/or they are added along with another, Unique, Character from their franchise

There’s also no New Sonic Newcomer that was added Base game, and with there being confirmed no Echoes in the DLC, if a New Sonic Character were to be added, they would be unique

Now If you personally think Eggman, Tails, or Knuckles would be the Character they would choose to fill that Spot, than that is up to you. Shadow though has a good argument going for him being a Unique Character. As such this whole thing with “Shadow would have been in Base Game as an echo” is not something that should stop all further discussions of Shadow as DLC

Spoiler: Benefits

-Shadow’s Similarities to Sonic benefits him from a Developmental Standpoint, and a Moveset Design Standpoint


-From a Developmental Standpoint, Shadow could reasonably use Sonic’s Skeleton to make Rigging Easier, and also Animating Easier (and that also doesn’t go into re-using some animations)


-From a Moveset Standpoint (and some of these points go hand in hand with Development), Shadow’s Similarities to Sonic allows Shadow to reasonably make use of Some of Sonic’s Unused Moves (Mostly from the Modern Era). Moves like the Light Speed Dash, Boost Attack, Black Tornado, and etc would make sense to be included

The other thing is that it would help Visualizing a Moveset easier. Shadow is meant to Rival Sonic, but he has his own Edge and Flair to everything he does that separates himself from Sonic. With Sonic already in Smash, Sakurai, Sega, and the Rest of the Dev team can Compare Sonic’s Moveset in Smash and then Visualize how Shadow would move, How Shadow would attack

This is also in combination with him already having material for his moveset, with Sonic Battle being a Prime Example (and that Contrasts Sonic taking a good amount of his Moves from Sonic the Fighters)

This also isn’t just for Attacks, but Sonic’s Stats are a good base for seeing what would fit Shadow.

Spoiler: Downsides

-Shadow having kind of a Similar Visual Silhouette to Sonic Might be bad from this Philosophy

https://youtu.be/w8H5QkOIT_s

GDC-Scan-03.png (1515×1076) (wp.com)

Sakurai’s GDC 2008 Presentation Slides – Source Gaming

Granted the youtube video is just an interpretation, but something to consider



-No Matter how unique he would hypothetically turn out, as a DLC Character, there might be more apprehension because he does look similar to another character on the Roster.

Spoiler: Eggman, Tails, Knuckles

What merit does Shadow have over these 3?

-2nd Most Popular Character in the Sonic Fanbase

https://youtu.be/DbrBpQVwINo

Sega (through Eggman) themselves saying He (Shadow) is the 2nd Most Popular Character, behind Sonic

-Shadow is Head of Sonic Team, Iizuka’s, Favorite Character

Takashi Iizuka

Takashi Iizuka (飯塚 隆, Īzuka Takashi?) is a key producer, director and designer within Sonic Team. Early in his career, he worked directly under Hirokazu Yasuhara as a senior game designer on Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and quickly progressed to direct NiGHTS into Dreams and supervise development of...

sonic.fandom.com

An Interview With Sonic Team’s Takashi Iizuka About ‘Sonic Runners’ – TouchArcade

SEGA's latest game featuring their iconic blue mascot, Sonic Runners , finally came out of soft launch late last week, and if the successes of previous Sonic games on iOS are anything to go by, ...

toucharcade.com

-Shadow has his own interesting Mechanics different from the other 3 Sonic Characters (More in Moveset Viability) that revolve around Space and Time Manipulation at the least


-Shadow would be the easiest Character to Implement, has he has Very Similar Body type to Sonic and could reasonably use his Skeleton, and also Has an Assist Trophy Model.

-Shadow’s debut Game, SA2, was the game that got Nintendo Audiences into the Sonic Franchise.

-Now this doesn’t mean Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles don’t have their own merits, they have merits that Rival or even surpass Shadow in Some aspects, but it’s not like Shadow has no reason to get in over these 3, he does.

Spoiler: Would Shadow really be the First Assist Promotion?

Spoiler: Waluigi

-Yes, Waluigi is the most popular requested Assist Trophy

-With that being said, the main thing to consider is that there is more to the discussion than requests though

-Shadow is more important to his Franchise than Waluigi is. I don’t know the full details of this Mario Mandate, but it seems to prevent Waluigi from apperaincing in a Mainline Mario game. Now Waluigi does appear and Smash, and the Mario Spinoffs are very popular games, but still

-Shadow has more consistent Movepool and Abilities than Waluigi does, which would make conceptualizing a Moveset for him easier than with Waluigi, not trying to say Waluigi does not have any abilities, just that they are very inconsistent

-Mario already has 9 Characters in this game, and 2 of them were newcomers to this game, on the other hand Sonic, which has been very requested to get a 2nd Character, has not gotten one yet.

Sakurai notes that Representation is factored into the character choices

GDC-Scan-01.png (1515×1076) (wp.com)

Sakurai’s GDC 2008 Presentation Slides – Source Gaming

-With that being said, I will say that Waluigi is a very big competitor to Shadow for the Assist Promotion spot (If there were only one).

Spoiler: Alucard

-Alucard was considered to be the Castlevania rep according to Sakurai, but instead went with Simon/Richter

-However keep in Mind that Most characters that get in don’t have Sakurai if they were considered beforehand.

Ridley, Banjo, and Min-Min (through ARMS) were the only characters that Sakurai talked about in a Column before they got in.

-Alucard is very popular within his Franchise, but so is Shadow, so they are on the Same Wavelength. Sonic hasn’t gotten a New character in this game unlike Castlevania though

Spoiler: Shovel Knight

-Not much to say about Shovel Knight vs Shadow. I will say Shadow has been a more recurring Character for about 2 Decades, and has gone around more than Shovel Knight. With that being said, not much else to say

Spoiler: Isaac

-Isaac is a heavily requested character on the same wavelength as Geno I’d say (when he’s not an Assist). With that being said, the problem he has is that his Franchise is on hiatus.

I would say a Character/Franchise on Hiatus would have a harder time getting on the DLC Roster than the Base Roster due to the fact that DLC roster has to sell on their Character/Franchise Merit, and is not included with a Full Packaged game.

Now Banjo is kind of the exception, but Banjo does at least get used in Rare Replay, and Phil Spencer was a huge advocate for the idea. It also expanded the Nintendo and Microsoft Relationship

In terms of Relevance and outside Smash Popularity, Shadow has Isaac beat.

Spoiler: Skull Kid

-Not much to say on Skull Kid honestly, except that the Ancient Armor Costume might imply we not getting another Zelda character, but that’s not really something that deals with Skull Kid’s merits or anything like that

Spoiler: Conclusion (Small)

Overall, I do think Shadow has a good shot to be the First Assist Promotion. I would say the Main Competition is Waluigi, but I do think there is stuff that Shadow has over Waluigi.

Spoiler: Shadow's Merits

Uses Sourcegaming’s Merit checking box

https://youtu.be/ow-k9ZLFaRk?t=100

1:40-2:10

Spoiler: Iconicness/Recognizability

-Now compared to Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles, Shadow is probably not as recognizable as them because he wasn’t in the OG Trilogy of Games, and his Appearances in Other Media and Shows tend to be more sparse (As an example, he’s only appeared in 2 Episodes of Sonic Boom, while Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles have frequent appearances

With that being said, Shadow is still a heavily Recognizable character. He still does make appearances that leave out other Modern Era Characters. He’s appeared in Sonic Boom (Cartoon), Lego Dimensions (with Big and Chaos), and both the Sonic All Star Racing games He’s very popular with the Nintendo Crowd since his game was the one that exposed them to Sonic

I also think he benefits from Having a Similarities to Sonic because even if they don’t exactly know who he is, they can still recognize he comes from Sonic

In Japan, (and this goes for Sonic in general), He Might be more niche because Sonic isn’t as big in Japan as everywhere else. At the least, among Sonic fans in Japan he’s recognizable and such.

Spoiler: Popularity

-As Mentioned, Shadow is the 2nd Most Popular Sonic Character, behind Sonic

-In terms of Smash Requests, Shadow, along with Tails and Knuckles have been very requested characters since Sonic got in, and there were even requests for these 3 even before Sonic got in. Now whoever of these characters dominates sometimes Depends. At one Point Knuckles was the most popular request (Smash 4) at least with the hardcore fourms. On Miiverse and Twitter Shadow was especially popular. IGN Rallied fans to voted for Tails.

Eggman has definitely been more requested for Ultimate’s lifecycle, regarding DLC

Shadow’s Popularity within Smash Fanbase exploded during Ultimate’s Base game Speculation cycle, along with Waluigi, Skull Kid, Geno, Isaac, Ashley, and others

-You’ll 99% of the time see Another Sonic character in Smash fanmods or Fangames. It usually varies betweens Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, or a combination of the three, with Rarely other Sonic characters like Metal Sonic

There’s even a Brawl Modpack that’s exclusively about Sonic Characters

SONIC SMASH BROS EDITION - Brawl Mod - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiMhREYOZIA

Spoiler: Moveset Viability

Chaos powers | Sonic News Network | Fandom

Spoiler: Moveset Viability

Light Speed Dash | Sonic News Network | Fandom

Boost | Sonic News Network | Fandom

Black Tornado | Sonic News Network | Fandom


-As a unique character, Shadow does have the following abilities and potential Moveset ideas to Implement

Sonic’s unused Abilities like Light Speed Dash, Boost Attack, Black Tornado, and more.

Chaos Control, which allows control over Space and Time. Shadow usually uses these Abilities in an Aggressive manner or to Show off. Shadow will probably have a lot of Teleportation in his Moveset, in regards to Mobility and potentially Rushdown abilities, like Teleport Combos, or Moves with Teleports ingrained into them

Teleports so far have mostly just been a Recovery tool, as you’re put in Freefall if used in the air. To stay true to the Canon, Shadow’s Teleport will probably be used less as a Recovery Tool, and more for pressuring the Opponent

Shadow can also Slow and/or Freeze time, which could be the Highest Risk/Reward move if Implemented in a balanced manner

Chaos Spear is a move that has had different functions over the years. Shadow can fire one Strong Projectile, or a Group of Smaller Projectiles, or fire one after the other. He can make the Spears home in. He can fire it into the Air to Make it Rain. Combined with the Concept of Manipulating Space and Time, could be used as Delayed projectile of some kind. It’s a very versatile projectile

Chaos Blast is an Explosive Technique that has Shadow surround himself in Chaos Energy. Kind of like Magic Burst from Hero, though not tied to RNG

Shadow has had a Boost Mode Mechanic of some kind in games like Shadow the Hedgehog and 06, and also shown off in other Media like the comics and Sonic X. By Removing the Inhibitor rings on his ARMS, he can Power himself up and unlock destructive abilities (like the Aforementioned Chaos Blast). This tires himself out though

I could see this working as a Transformation you can activate at anytime, which is a Far cry from Other transformations as you either have to charge them or you get them by taking damage or something like that. The Downside would either that you have to Leave yourself open after the Transformation Dies out, or it Works like Kaioken from DBZ and you take Damage as you’re in this mode

There’s also other Techniques he’s shown in games like Sonic Battle, along with his Rocket Skates. Like with Ridley, who doesn’t use his wings in battle, but does here, Shadow would likely make use of the Flames under his Rocket Skates. Legacy XP is a Example of this concept

Spoiler: Ease of Implementation

-Shadow has a Similar body type to Sonic type, so he could reasonably make use of Sonic’s Skeleton for rigging and perhaps Animating, and the such, allowing for Easier Development

-Shadow also has an Assist Model in game. As we saw with Bomberman, and other Mii costumes like Isaac and Skull Kid, Assist Assets can be repurposed for other avenues like Mii costumes, and Chrom, as a Final Smash NPC, shows that NPC Models can be repurposed for Non-Mii Characters, though Shadow should probably have his model Smoothed out

Post that shows the Similarities between Isaac Assist and Isaac Mii (it’s the same)

Sunrise Up Again! Isaac for Smash Ultimate DLC | Page 972 | Smashboards

-Shadow’s Toolkit along with his Speed would be quite a task to balance, but balancing would be easier in that there’s more time to allocate to it, Since Shadow has the above Advantages in his favor

Spoiler: Relevance

-Shadow is heavily relevant to the Sonic Franchise, as even if he’s not in the Starring role, he does make frequent Appearances. He was made Playable in forces after a Decade of not being Playable in Mainline Game, and he’s been on the cover for Forces, TSR, and the Mobile game

-Sonic as a Franchise has been relevant as well, With Mania and Forces (well better or worse) were games that released in 2017. The Mobile game Sonic Forces Speed Battle (or just titled Sonic Forces these days), The Movie that came out in 2020, and Comics and Licensing deals. Sonic will be Heavily relevant in 2020 (with the movie) and 2021, as 2021 is the 30th anniversary, and there are games planned for the 30th anniversary. 2020/2021 are the years Fighter Pass 2 will be in Production

Spoiler: 3rd Party Franchise (Sega)

-Sega likes to License Sonic out. They’ve licensed him in OK KO, Lego Dimensions, Ninjala, Fall Guys to name a Few Appearances

-Sonic has always had a good amount of the supporting case as Trophies/Spirits. Shadow has been an Assist for 3 Games and Knuckles was a newly added one this game

While the Colors with Sonic and the Initial refusal of Sonic in Brawl might imply Sega is strict with Sonic, there’s more to suggest that they are open to collabs and such like that

Spoiler: Conclusion

Overall, Shadow has good stats in all the merits presented here. He’s Iconic/Recognizable character, Popular both in and outside of Smash (though he’s also a very controversial character), Has ALot of potential for a unique Playstyle, despite his similarities to Sonic, Easier to Implement than a usual Character because he has assets ingame he can reasonable re-use, and he’s a Relevant Character and will continue to be relevant in years to come. Sega is also very into Licensing out their characters, Like Sonic and the gang.

Spoiler: Miscellaneous

This section is talking about things that might seem very Conspiracy theory, or not definite. Keep that in mind when reading

Spoiler: Shadow's Spirit

-Shadow, along with Eggman, is the only Sonic Character to have a 4 Star Spirit. Shadow’s 4 Star Spirit is Super Shadow, which completes Super Sonic. This could imply that the team see Shadow in the same wavelength as Sonic in a lot of aspects, especially since Shadow is the only character to have a Super form in this game

List of spirits (Sonic the Hedgehog series) - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

Shadow’s Spirit Battle also does not use the Dark Sonic Costume, but the Neon blue one, Which confirms the team does not see the Dark Sonic Costume as a Shadow Replacement. In the Series history, Character alts have been a thing to represent Characters unplayable on the roster, as Daisy, Dark Samus, Chrom, and Wolf (in Smash 4) will tell you. Characters like Waluigi have Alts that represent them



List of spirits (Sonic the Hedgehog series) - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

Spoiler: Shadow’s Assist Trophy is interesting

Besides upgraded Animations, Shadow now has a 2nd Phase where he completely Stops time. If you hit an Opponent when they are in Stopped in time, they react to the hit, but don’t get Knocked back because they are frozen in time

There is no other Character, Boss, NPC or place where this “Complete Stop in time” Mechanic is used. At best, the Regular Time slow is used for other Mechanics (Timer, Witch Time, Dharkon’s Void attack)

A Potential theory is that They might have used Shadow’s Assist Trophy to test this type of mechanic, since Complete Stop in time is completely unique to the Smash series, possibly for a future character in DLC...Like Shadow himself

Spoiler: Legacy XP

-Legacy XP was a Mod that had Geno, Waluigi, Metal Sonic, and Shadow (talking about Characters currently not in Ultimate)

However the Mod was at its most popular in May of 2018, a Month before Ultimate was officially revealed. This Mod also had Ridley in it. Ridley would be the big E3 Reveal along with Ultimate, and this Legacy XP Mod had people think it was the newest Smash game. This Mod was allowed to stay up

In March of 2020, The Mod was taken down by the Creators. Since then there’s been Speculation that the Mod was taken down because there was a Character in this Mod that will have a Presence in the DLC, Likely Playable

Nintendo does take things down, but they usually do them for a Reason. AM2R was Taken down, and Samus Returns (Nintendo’s Metroid 2 Remake) will come out around a year later, Mario Bros Battle Royale was taken down because Mario 35 was a thing, and more

Here’s some Screenshots and stuff from Papagenos to add to this discussion

proxy.php (400×212) (smashboards.com)

proxy.php (324×300) (smashboards.com)

proxy.php (1179×623) (smashboards.com)

papa (google.com)



Geno was a returning Mii costume from Smash 4, and his Mii costume is not Premium, but just the regular one Very Slightly changed, but barely noticeable.

It’s possible that if Nintendo Pressured the takedown of this Mod, They may have taken it down for the Regular Geno Mii costume...I doubt it though

If the Mod was taken down because of a Character, then the remaining options are Waluigi, Metal Sonic, and Shadow the Hedgehog. Your conclusions is up to you

Spoiler: Sakurai likes Edgy Characters

-in the Terry Presentation, he mentioned on how Iori Design was brilliant, and that puts focus on something that we should have noticed

https://youtu.be/yK3VltKv3JI?t=1550

25:50-26:03

Dark Pit, Meta Knight, Mewtwo, Dark Samus, Wolf… Sakurai is in love with Edgy Rival Character it seems

Shadow is Sonic’s “Edgy” Rival. Yes

View attachment 297566

This Concludes the Essay, I might make some edits to it, from perhaps your feedback, or if I think of something else, but until then, Sayanora! See you from the Shadows

Interesting essay; I was especially interested in the AT arguments.

By the way, should Shadow's moveset involve guns?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

This was actually a rumor last year if I recall. Was supposed to be revealed at Microsoft's E3.

I'm so disappointed that it wasn't real.

Really? Thats a bit disappointing, I hope it happens some day. There have been a few Godzilla fighting games, but they just a bit off.

Getting off topic here, aren't we? Imma try changing the subject back to something more related to Smash DLC. Like, what kind of extra bosses do you want added?

Honestly, all I want is a Metroid Boss. Kraid, Mother Brain, even a Giga Bowser style take on Ridley would perfect our bosses for me.

 

[cothero]

I know this is an early question to make and kinda off-topic too, but do you guys think there will be a normal E3 this year? Or they'll choose to follow the same online pattern of 2020?

 

[Technomage]

I know this is an early question to make and kinda off-topic too, but do you guys think there will be a normal E3 this year? Or they'll choose to follow the same online pattern of 2020?

Depends on whether or not we crush the virus.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I know this is an early question to make and kinda off-topic too, but do you guys think there will be a normal E3 this year? Or they'll choose to follow the same online pattern of 2020?

Depends on if COVID-19 is still ravaging everywhere or the vaccine stops or at least heavily manages it

 

[7NATOR]

Interesting essay; I was especially interested in the AT arguments.

By the way, should Shadow's moveset involve guns?

I forgot to mention the Guns. But I think they should be summoned through a Taunt, where if you do a Specfic Taunt, a Gun like Item (or any type of weapon since Shadow weilds stuff like Swords in his game as well) will be summoned in his hands

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Wait are we still equating sales to Smash likelihood?

Here it comes;

Resident Evil, known as Biohazard in Japan, is premiere action horror gameplay. Among the best selling gaming series ever created, it is the source material for lovable character like Jill, Chris, and Leon. As Smash is a hall of fame, I would love nothing more than to stare at their beautiful faces with other gaming all stars for hours on end.

I can keep going.

 

[Faso115]

Wonder if Nintendo plans to continue the partner streams...