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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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SharkLord

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I was thinking about how exactly they'd impliment Sol's moves and assuming they don't give him a Back Special I think they'd do something like this:
  • Neutral Special: Gun Flame (Tap for the feint variant)
  • Side Special: Bandit Revolver (This is a rekka like Dancing Blade)
  • Up Special: Volcanic Viper (Hold for more power and distance in exchange for vulnerability)
  • Down Special: Bandit Bringer
  • Command Only Special or Dash Attack: Fafnir
  • Forward Smash or Dash Attack: Night Raid Vortex
  • Back Throw: Wild Throw
As for the Command Inputs...A lot of them overlap, so I think they might either make some require the normal attack button and others require the special move button (which I don't think is a good idea), or change up some of them.
I think Bandit Bringer would be made into a back special, seeing as that's basically the input in Strive. Feel like the Roman Cancels and Tension Gauge in there, too; Down special or neutral special would feel the most natural.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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I think Bandit Bringer would be made into a back special, seeing as that's basically the input in Strive.
I have 3 problems with this:
  • I feel like copying Terry specific mechanics would cause issues with the two feeling kinda samey, even if only aesthetically.
  • Bandit Bringer and Power Dunk are visually the same exact move, so if one is a Back Special and the other is a Down Special, that would be a bit confusing.
  • It may be because I've never played Guilty Gear, but the idea of a dedicated Back Special moving you up and then down forward seems very strange.
Feel like the Roman Cancels and Tension Gauge in there, too; Down special or neutral special would feel the most neutral.
Yeah, there's also that. I honestly don't think there's room for them as a Special Move since Sol has so many to cover...What if Roman Cancels were activated with the shield button? It would only activate if you had the meter, and if there was actually anything to cancel (normals, specials, hitstun, blockstun?, etc.), so you would still have a normal shield and air dodge, but you also now have a button for Roman Cancels.

EDIT: I don't remember if raw Roman Cancels are a thing, but you might could make that a Shield Special, though it would be difficult to make such an input work in the air...

slowmo Roblox death sound
 
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SharkLord

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Y'know, it's kinda funny that whenever we get updates on something, my predictions that mostly followed the same path just falls apart. I predicted Rex, Lloyd, and Reimu. We got Pyra, who's basically an extension of Rex, but the dawning realization that we've only got two fighters left wrecked all my predictions anyways. I was kinda expecting a big reveal around E3 and a smaller reveal at the end, but now that we actually have Nintendo at E3, I've gone back to a dual reveal mindset, with two fairly large reveals.
 

SNEKeater

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I have 3 problems with this:
  • I feel like copying Terry specific mechanics would cause issues with the two feeling kinda samey, even if only aesthetically.
  • Bandit Bringer and Power Dunk are visually the same exact move, so if one is a Back Special and the other is a Down Special, that would be a bit confusing.
  • It may be because I've never played Guilty Gear, but the idea of a dedicated Back Special moving you up and then down forward seems very strange.

Yeah, there's also that. I honestly don't think there's room for them as a Special Move since Sol has so many to cover...What if Roman Cancels were activated with the shield button? It would only activate if you had the meter, and if there was actually anything to cancel (normals, specials, hitstun, blockstun?, etc.), so you would still have a normal shield and air dodge, but you also now have a button for Roman Cancels.


slowmo Roblox death sound
In Guilty Gear XX and Xrd, if you hold the input for Bandit Revolver (which is basically the hadouken input command + kick) what Sol does is Bandit Bringer. It may cause some misinputs for some people but I think translating that to Smash shouldn't be a problem.

I agree Fafnir could be his dash attack. Wild Throw as a back throw is good as well, and it should be a good startup for combos, just like in Guilty Gear:

 

Rie Sonomura

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Think they could still reveal a character this month and do a reveal (of what I GUESS is only one more character unless they have some... surprises planned) at E3?

I mean it’s technically not impossible with Joker before Hero & Banjo, but since there are “two presentations left”... hmmm...
 

Technomage

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Think they could still reveal a character this month and do a reveal (of what I GUESS is only one more character unless they have some... surprises planned) at E3?

I mean it’s technically not impossible with Joker before Hero & Banjo, but since there are “two presentations left”... hmmm...
Maybe in that kind of scenario, the second-to-last trailer could be a reveal trailer for both of the last two fighters (and maybe the bonus fighter too, if that rumor is true), and the absolute last trailer could be a trailer that gives release dates, fighter info, and other stuff for those fighters?
 

Wunderwaft

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There's a decent possibility of a double reveal at E3 since the last fighter released last month. The Smash team tends to work on multiple characters at once and there's 3 months until E3, I'd say that's enough time to collect some trailer footage for both characters. :bowsette:
 
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SharkLord

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Crash might be, but I sincerely doubt Arle would be an E3 reveal. There's a significant portion (most) of casual gamers who have no idea wtf that is.
To be fair, a lot of casual gamers in the West were absolutely stumped with Hero. Assuming we get a big Western-appeal rep again, I think they can lean into another Japan-centric character.
 

SNEKeater

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There's a decent possibility of a double reveal at E3 since the last fighter released last month. The Smash team tends to work on multiple characters at once and there's 3 months until E3, I'd say that's enough time to collect some trailer footage for both characters. :bowsette:
I like how you think.

To be fair, a lot of casual gamers in the West were absolutely stumped with Hero. Assuming we get a big Western-appeal rep again, I think they can lean into another Japan-centric character.
Which still surprises me. I understand not being very familiar with Dragon Quest or not having played the games but, not knowing the series? That is something I have a hard time believing from people who supposedly are interested in the industry.

I mean if you're a casual gamer who just plays the games you like and do not care about the latest releases or game news, then I agree Dragon Quest isn't a series that will reach those people. But for people who are more into daily news of this world? I doubt that they never heard of DQ to be honest.

Especially if you're a Nintendo fan who has consumed Nintendo Directs. As others have said at some points, the series has been always present in these presentations when new game came out.

Arle and Puyo Puyo I definitely feel are below Dragon Quest in terms of presence in the West.

I just think a good amount of folks were in a kind of denial because they weren't interested in Dragon Quest so they went with the "no one knows Dragon Quest in the West" route. And a lie repeated a thousand times is still a lie but unfortunately, it will usually work and stick as the truth for a lot of people.
 
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Gazorpazorpfield

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Well then it would be the perfect time to introduce her to them.

Sakurai says recognizability is not important | Super Smash Brothers  Ultimate | Know Your Meme
To be fair, that quote was in Terry's presentation, who wasn't revealed at E3. He isn't a bad addition, but I think the point about larger characters being reserved for the big events still stands.

:ulthero: exists, but he was introduced along with :ultbanjokazooie:, a character westerners would be more familiar with/interested in
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Crash might be, but I sincerely doubt Arle would be an E3 reveal. There's a significant portion (most) of casual gamers who have no idea wtf that is.
I dunno about that. It might just be projection, but I feel like a lot of people have at least heard of Puyo Puyo, even if only through Puyo Puyo Tetris.
 

Mushroomguy12

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To be fair, that quote was in Terry's presentation, who wasn't revealed at E3. He isn't a bad addition, but I think the point about larger characters being reserved for the big events still stands.

:ulthero: exists, but he was introduced along with :ultbanjokazooie:, a character westerners would be more familiar with/interested in
In this particular context the OP was talking about introducing Arle alongside Crash, so it wouldn't be any different from :ulthero:/:ultbanjokazooie:.

Besides they've introduced :ultpalutena: alongside :ultpacman: and :ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter: before, I think Arle would be fine.
 

SharkLord

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I like how you think.



Which still surprises me. I understand not being very familiar with Dragon Quest or not having played the games but, not knowing the series? That is something I have a hard time believing from people who supposedly are interested in the industry.

I mean if you're a casual gamer who just plays the games you like and do not care about the latest releases or game news, then I agree Dragon Quest isn't a series that will reach those people. But for people who are more into daily news of this world? I doubt that they never heard of DQ to be honest.

Especially if you're a Nintendo fan who has consumed Nintendo Directs. As others have said at some points, the series has been always present in these presentations when new game came out.

Arle and Puyo Puyo I definitely feel are below Dragon Quest in terms of presence in the West.

I just think a good amount of folks were in a kind of denial because they weren't interested in Dragon Quest so they went with the "no one knows Dragon Quest in the West" route. And a lie repeated a thousand times is still a lie but unfortunately, it will usually work and stick as the truth for a lot of people.
Heard of DQ, maybe, but they probably don't know enough about it to remember any faces or recurring features. Anyone into JRPGs would know of DQ, but not everyone's into JRPGs. Some people still stick with the nasty "anime bad" stigma, and for others it just isn't their speed, so it doesn't stick out to them.

Even if it's a mainstay of Nintendo Directs, if it didn't grab you in those streams, you're not going to remember them-And even if it did look cool, you still might not remember it by the time the next Direct swings around. Speaking from experience, people get hyped for games they'll just forget and not end up playing.

From what I can gather, Dragon Quest just never got a proper foothold in the West, and Final Fantasy became the archetypal JRPG over there (Especially Final Fantasy VII). Nintendo's been working to help it grow, but it's still not that big. I think people just genuinely didn't know about Dragon Quest back when Hero was revealed. They might have heard of it, but they knew jacksquat beyond the name, the importance it supposedly had, and maybe the Slimes and Akira Toriyama.
 

Pillow

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Crash might be, but I sincerely doubt Arle would be an E3 reveal. There's a significant portion (most) of casual gamers who have no idea wtf that is.
Arle is kind of in a weird spot where Puyo Puyo Tetris actually is recognizable in the west...by very casual audience and children. The game was a huge success on the Switch. She's just not as recognized by the (non-Smash) actual gaming community. Besides, if Crash is actually one of the last 2 picks, literally any character could be revealed alongside him and be fine no matter how sino-centric. Crash is a Western darling.
 

SharkLord

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Arle is kind of in a weird spot where Puyo Puyo Tetris actually is recognizable in the west...by very casual audience and children. The game was a huge success on the Switch. She's just not as recognized by the (non-Smash) actual gaming community. Besides, if Crash is actually one of the last 2 picks, literally any character could be revealed alongside him and be fine no matter how sino-centric. Crash is a Western darling.
Not to be that guy, but sino refers to China, not East Asia as a whole. Calling Eastern-slanted candidates sino-centric implies they're appealing to China specifically, when Nintendo's main audience in the East Asia region is their home country Japan. Though, Nintendo does have some Chinese presence, so they hypothetically could add an actual sino-centric rep. SKX31 SKX31 is probably able to answer any questions regarding that, being the Nintendo foreign market man and all.
 

Pillow

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Not to be that guy, but sino refers to China, not East Asia as a whole. Calling Eastern-slanted candidates sino-centric implies they're appealing to China specifically, when Nintendo's main audience in the East Asia region is their home country Japan. Though, Nintendo does have some Chinese presence, so they hypothetically could add an actual sino-centric rep. SKX31 SKX31 is probably able to answer any questions regarding that, being the Nintendo foreign market man and all.
Yeah that's correct, I had a brain fart for a second when typing it. Mb
 

CapitaineCrash

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Honestly I still think that E3 is going to be only one character reveal. With only two characters left, I think that thay're going to keep the announcement for the longest time they can. So I think that we wil have an e3 reveal with a July release date and a september reveal with a October release date for the final fighter. If we do get a bonus fighter, I think it would be shown in the same presentation as the final fighter of pass 2 like they show Plant with Ken and Incineroar as a bonus for base game.

Quick, name the cheapest third party company you can think of.
Platinum games for Wonder red.
 
D

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I dunno about that. It might just be projection, but I feel like a lot of people have at least heard of Puyo Puyo, even if only through Puyo Puyo Tetris.
Even if that were the case, that would mean that the casual audience that is familiar due to its association with Tetris, would only think of it as a Tetris clone and still not realize it even had a mascot character since Tetris itself doesn't have one (and doesn't really need one either).
 

DarthEnderX

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To be fair, a lot of casual gamers in the West were absolutely stumped with Hero.
I...don't think that's true. Like, yeah, a lot of Western gamers haven't PLAYED DQ, but most people at least know enough to go "Oh, that's Dragon Quest."
 

NonSpecificGuy

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I’m inclined to agree that even if Dragon Quest isn’t the most popular thing over here most people are at least aware of the name. Though probably not beyond a certain age group like most Smash choices.

It’s quite ironic to think about but a lot of the characters chosen don’t necessarily appeal to a ton of people. Ironic because of how often we focus on how HUGE a character like Crash is when he’s only HUGE to a very specific age group.
 
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SharkLord

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I keep people saying Nintendo would want to stretch out the reveals as long as they could to keep the speculative scene going, but I dunno. I feel like if they really wanted to drag out those reveals, they wouldn't reveal Sephiroth and Pyra so soon, and either way I think Nintendo cares less about the speculation and more about the actual reveals. It just feels like they're trying to get this done quickly, and all past E3s involving Smash set a precedent for multiple reveals anyways.
 

Louie G.

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I keep people saying Nintendo would want to stretch out the reveals as long as they could to keep the speculative scene going, but I dunno. I feel like if they really wanted to drag out those reveals, they wouldn't reveal Sephiroth and Pyra so soon, and either way I think Nintendo cares less about the speculation and more about the actual reveals. It just feels like they're trying to get this done quickly, and all past E3s involving Smash set a precedent for multiple reveals anyways.
Counterpoint, every formal reveal since Min Min has released with a month of confirmation. Unless they're looking to drop two characters at pretty much the same time, I anticipate they'll continue down this route and only reveal characters close to when they're ready to release them to avoid those potential droughts in between that were more present in FP1.

If Nintendo really just wants to get it over with, I'd sooner expect another reveal in April or May than two at E3. Assuming that character may be far enough along to confidently drop them within the next month, but in general I think June and August / September are very reasonable expectations.
 
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ahemtoday

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I was thinking about how exactly they'd impliment Sol's moves and assuming they don't give him a Back Special I think they'd do something like this:
  • Neutral Special: Gun Flame (Tap for the feint variant)
  • Side Special: Bandit Revolver (This is a rekka like Dancing Blade)
  • Up Special: Volcanic Viper (Hold for more power and distance in exchange for vulnerability)
  • Down Special: Bandit Bringer
  • Command Only Special or Dash Attack: Fafnir
  • Forward Smash or Dash Attack: Night Raid Vortex
  • Back Throw: Wild Throw
As for the Command Inputs...A lot of them overlap, so I think they might either make some require the normal attack button and others require the special move button (which I don't think is a good idea), or change up some of them.
Not that I know much about Guilty Gear, but I'd absolutely start by putting Roman Cancel on neutral-B. I feel like it's gotta be somewhere, and that position makes it easy to move the stick in whatever direction if you want to RC into up-tilt or something.

Maybe along that line, the rest of the specials could also be universal GG mechanics, and then Sol's command moves could be exclusive to special inputs? Not that I know enough about GG to know what that'd look like.
 

Shroob

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Counterpoint, every formal reveal since Min Min has released with a month of confirmation. Unless they're looking to drop two characters at pretty much the same time, I anticipate they'll continue down this route and only reveal characters close to when they're ready to release them to avoid those potential droughts in between that were more present in FP1.

If Nintendo really just wants to get it over with, I'd sooner expect another reveal in April or May than two at E3. Assuming that character may be far enough along to confidently drop them within the next month, but in general I think June and August / September are very reasonable expectations.
Counter-Counter point though, in that we've been without Directs since Terry was revealed.


They're back now, meaning that, until now, Sakurai Presents was more or less the only way for characters to be shown off, barring stuff like TGA or the one mini Direct we had before the Pandemic hit.


Now that they're back, there's nothing saying that we can't go back to how things were. That's the thing, going forward, we won't know how things play out. Before all this, yeah, Sakurai Presents were the only way really for characters to be shown off, meaning that outside of big events, it was obvious that the Presents would come extremely close to the release.

Now? We're possibly back to how things were, meaning we could be throwing that entire last year of scheduling out in the trash.
 
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SpectreJordan

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Mfw everyone keeps saying the next character won’t be bigger than Steve/Sephiroth but very few franchises are bigger than Minecraft/Final Fantasy so that leaves almost everyone on the table still. 😎😎😎

RIP characters from Mario, Tetris (lmao), Pokemon, FIFA (lmao x2), GTA, COD, Lego (lmao x3) & The Sims (lmao x4) though.
 

DarthEnderX

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I keep people saying Nintendo would want to stretch out the reveals as long as they could to keep the speculative scene going, but I dunno. I feel like if they really wanted to drag out those reveals, they wouldn't reveal Sephiroth and Pyra so soon, and either way I think Nintendo cares less about the speculation and more about the actual reveals. It just feels like they're trying to get this done quickly, and all past E3s involving Smash set a precedent for multiple reveals anyways.
Yeah, I don't know why Nintendo should care about the speculative scene. Does any part of the speculative scene translate into actual sales?
 

7NATOR

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I Do think that at the very least, we will get Both CP10 and CP11 Revealed by the time E3 Rolls around, whether both revealed at E3, CP10 revealed earlier, etc

I Imagine Nintendo would want to showcase the Full Fighter Pass 2 to the audience. I know there's people that are on the fence about buying the Full Pass, so especially if they have a popular character to show off, by revealing all the characters, they showcasing exactly what the Package is and that will entice more people

Plus with June being the 3rd anniversary of the reveal, and with this being the end, I Imagine they want to do a 2nd version of everyone is here trailer with all the DLC, just to hit hime how grand the Smash Ultimate roster is

If there is a Bonus Fighter, that might be the best spot to reveal that there is a Bonus character, perhaps if You buy both Fighter Pass 1 and Fighter Pass 2. With Plant, the contents of the base game were known and done, and you only needed that to get him for free. It would have been weird to showcase Bonus DLC before the actual DLC was even shown off though
 

Shroob

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Yeah, I don't know why Nintendo should care about the speculative scene. Does any part of the speculative scene translate into actual sales?
It keeps people talking about Smash.


But said people talking have already bought Smash, and probably the FP as well, so if it translates into any sales, it's probably an extremely low amount at best.
 

SharkLord

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Not that I know much about Guilty Gear, but I'd absolutely start by putting Roman Cancel on neutral-B. I feel like it's gotta be somewhere, and that position makes it easy to move the stick in whatever direction if you want to RC into up-tilt or something.

Maybe along that line, the rest of the specials could also be universal GG mechanics, and then Sol's command moves could be exclusive to special inputs? Not that I know enough about GG to know what that'd look like.
Not sure how many GG mechanics could be naturally implemented. There's the Dust button, which is a powerful launcher move, but that would probably be better as just an up smash. The Tension Gauge and it's corresponding moves could work, but putting the supers on the special buttons and confining the normal specials to inputs would just be weird. There's also the Instant Kills, but those are best as Final Smashes. I think it would be simpler to just use the Roman Cancel as the neutral special and add different attacks for each direction.
 

CapitaineCrash

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I’m inclined to agree that even if Dragon Quest isn’t the most popular thing over here most people are at least aware of the name. Though probably not beyond a certain age group like most Smash choices.

It’s quite ironic to think about but a lot of the characters chosen don’t necessarily appeal to a ton of people. Ironic because of how often we focus on how HUGE a character like Crash is when he’s only HUGE to a very specific age group.
I remember seeing a lot of posts here and at other place that Banjo is way more popular than Hero in the West, but as someone who started video game at the Gamecube/ps2 era, I never really knew who Banjo was until Smash 4 when I start really getting into Smash speculation. Like you said, different characters will be more popular through different ages. I think people need to understand that not every characters need to appeal to everyone. Some appeal more to modern Nintendo gamers (like Min min and Pyra), others like Banjo appeal more to people who have nostalgia for the N64 era (or to the kids who got Nuts and bolts one Christmas). No character will really be universally popular (unless you're Pikachu or Mario).
 

Louie G.

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Now that they're back, there's nothing saying that we can't go back to how things were.
Fair, but considering we're talking about the prospect of two characters in one presentation that's already not really the norm. Not a whole lot of reason to fasttrack an extra reveal for E3 when they aren't ready when they can just reveal one and satisfy people as is - E3 or not.

I dunno, we just gotta wait and see I guess! For now I'm just expecting a character every three months or so.
 
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