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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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SMAASH! Puppy

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What if we get a stage pack but it’s the WoL exclusive stages like Rathalos’s and Galleom’s?
That wouldn't jive well with me since they're already usable stages. We shouldn't have to buy the ability to use them in a normal match.

EDIT: Galleem & Dharkon's stage would be even worse since they'd be selling us an existing stage with literally no changes added.
 
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Shroob

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Well this is fun.

No idea what to make of it yet, but fun nonetheless.


I will say, if it "is" a Fighter, then they can realistically say "This game has 90 fighters!" if you count Pokemon Trainer's Mons individually, which the Smash team does, and Echoes as actual characters. Otherwise, after FP2, we'll end on 89 characters, counting the two aforementioned notes.
 

Powerman293

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I'm sure this may be an obvious idea, but could it be Sora from KH could be a bonus character? I could easily see him need to be separated from the rest of the pass due to a higher price to deal with Disney and Square both wanting a cut and/or maybe not coming with a stage/music due to legal reasons.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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I'm sure this may be an obvious idea, but could it be Sora from KH could be a bonus character? I could easily see him need to be separated from the rest of the pass due to a higher price to deal with Disney and Square both wanting a cut and/or maybe not coming with a stage/music due to legal reasons.
Sora's a catch-22. Simply coming in as a character would be easier given his unique situation, but his very fame makes not having him as part of the fighter's pass be crazy given how many he could sell.
 

RGFS

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This is all curious, because Sakurai's flat-out stated FP2 is the end, but this empty slot raises a lot of questions. Maybe it's just an FP1+FP2 pack, but I'm not sure how the separate packs are counted on the site.

I think Sakurai's stated that he only has two chances left to do the Sakurai Presents, but if it's just a bonus character without a Spirit Board or stage, he wouldn't be able to really go in-depth, right? I'm a bit hesitant to start looking for loopholes and exact words, but still...
I mean, I'm fully prepared for some Mii Costume to reveal there for those who have both fighter packs.

Though, to entertain the other possibilities... it'd be nice to have one more Piranha Plant bonus character to end everything off. It could just be another "sike!" moment from Sakurai.

Maybe this might actually be an echo fighter pack thought? Six echos for six dollars? Then Sakurai wouldn't really have to do any sort of Sakurai presents since they'd just be echos with very small changes.
 

Shroob

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Spitballing but maybe it's just an Echo of one of the two forthcoming characters? For FP1, they made it very clear "NO ECHOES", but they never said that in regards to FP2.


You say, "Why would they sell them separately?", I ask, "Why wouldn't they?"


Comparing them to Pyra/Mythra is a bit facetious since they're effectively part of each other's moveset, something that an Echo fighter isn't. Hell, for all we know, a potential Echo COULD come with new stuff that their base character doesn't. Imagine say, Crash and Coco coming with 2 whole stages from Crash Bandicoot, something like N.Sanity Beach and Cortex Castle, with Coco being the Echo obviously.


That feels like a very Nintendo AND Activision move if this scenario were to happen, theoretically of course.
 

Geno Boost

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I would like another double or triple fighters like pyra/mythra or Pokémon trainer but seems unlikely at this point
However I think having Blue with :001::005::009: would be cool
I also saw some had the idea of having Jack Bros. which consist of 3 SMT characters Jack Frost and Pyro Jack and Jack Ripper which sounds fantastic as SMT content is still absent from smash
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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You say, "Why would they sell them separately?", I ask, "Why wouldn't they?"
Because then the Challenger Pack wouldn't have all of its content. The only possible reason for them to sell it separately would be if a 3rd party character costs a lot, but they added more than one anyway, which is extremely unlikely.

Besides, there are very few characters that could actually come with Echo Fighters in the first place, which makes one of them even having one unlikely on its own.
 

Shroob

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Because then the Challenger Pack wouldn't have all of its content. The only possible reason for them to sell it separately would be if a 3rd party character costs a lot, but they added more than one anyway, which is extremely unlikely.

Besides, there are very few characters that could actually come with Echo Fighters in the first place, which makes one of them even having one unlikely on its own.
Citation needed.

We have no idea who the **** the next characters are, and there are hundreds if not thousands of characters floating out there in the void of space. I have a hard time believing that there are "very few" characters out there that could work as an Echo.


But again, this is all theoretical, we don't even know what this blank space is.
 
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chocolatejr9

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I would like another double or triple fighters like pyra/mythra or Pokémon trainer but seems unlikely at this point
However I think having Blue with :001::005::009: would be cool
I also saw some had the idea of having Jack Bros. which consist of 3 SMT characters Jack Frost and Pyro Jack and Jack Ripper which sounds fantastic as SMT content is still absent from smash
How about Euden, and he can transform into Midgardsormr?
 

3BitSaurus

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If this thing is actually an extra fighter, which I personally doubt, I wouldn't get my hopes up anyway.
I mean, I would because it's a bonus character and all, but at the same time, I just don't see them adding certain characters for such a spot.

When I think of bonus characters I think of weird/surprising additions. Yeah maybe I'm saying this because of Plant but my point is that, why would they put Sora, Chief or Crash, to mention 3 popular characters, as a bonus?

Bonus fighter feels something more fitting for characters you wouldn't expect to see in the game, so basically I'd expect:
  • Random retro character
  • Weird/joke character
  • A Smash OG fighter

Or things like that. It could be also a popular character that doesn't need a new stage or new songs, but if that's the case and they're doing only one extra fighter, I just can't imagine it not being Waluigi.
Yeah, I could see an Echo for a fighter that's already there (in which case I think Octoling would be the frontrunner, but there's also a Mega Man rep and Shadow to consider), but otherwise, it would have to be a standalone character from a repped series. I can't see it being Isaac, for example, because it would make no sense to add him without a Golden Sun stage and songs when it's a first party title. Same for any third party character from a new franchise.

Inb4 the Sora without content because Disney stingy turns out true. :4pacman:

Wait, it's listed as second Fighter's Pass DLC specifically? If so then it would make 0 sense for it to be that. Huh...
Yeah. You can only view this item inside the Volume 2 DLC bundle on the site. So it makes no sense to be a 1+ 2 deal - that would most likely occupy its own bundle outside of those numbers.
 

kylexv

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Given the fact that there are only 2 FP2 characters left and we still have nine months until the end of the year, I'd say that FP2 is ahead of schedule. And, whenever Sakurai has had a bit of extra time in the past, we saw a few extra clone characters get added. Who knows, this extra thing could be an Echo Fighter Pack, but I'm not holding my breath.
 

SpectreJordan

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If it’s a bonus fighter, then my money is on Waluigi. His disconfirmation easily got the biggest reaction of any character in Ultimate’s lifespan. It got tons of articles written about it & at the very least Reggie knew about it. If they didn’t already know, I assume he told Sakurai & the Smash team. If you want to end the game with a gift to the hardcore Smash fans, then he’s who you go with.

He also wouldn’t need a new stage, music or spirits. It could just be him. Though, a Mario Tennis/Party stage could be fun.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Citation needed.

We have no idea who the **** the next characters are, and there are hundreds if not thousands of characters floating out there in the void of space. I have a hard time believing that there are "very few" characters out there that could work as an Echo.
Don't need to cite nothin'.

Echo Fighters are alternate costumes that allow for gameplay changes that don't affect the overall balance, which means that at a bare minimum any Echo Fighter must:
  1. Have the exact same proportions. Otherwise they're a clone because their animations were made from scratch.
  2. Share their ability set with their base fighter, or at least have the copy/paste make sense.
Most characters don't fit both these criterion.
 
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TCT~Phantom

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Spitballing but maybe it's just an Echo of one of the two forthcoming characters? For FP1, they made it very clear "NO ECHOES", but they never said that in regards to FP2.


You say, "Why would they sell them separately?", I ask, "Why wouldn't they?"


Comparing them to Pyra/Mythra is a bit facetious since they're effectively part of each other's moveset, something that an Echo fighter isn't. Hell, for all we know, a potential Echo COULD come with new stuff that their base character doesn't. Imagine say, Crash and Coco coming with 2 whole stages from Crash Bandicoot, something like N.Sanity Beach and Cortex Castle, with Coco being the Echo obviously.


That feels like a very Nintendo AND Activision move if this scenario were to happen, theoretically of course.


Do not threaten me with a good time. More Crash content is always good in my book. :4pacman:
 

SpecterFlower

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This didn't originally occur to me, but now that you mention it, I am 100% convinced that this is what it is. You're gonna have to show me some pretty strong evidence to convince me otherwise. It makes too much sense.

Anti-climactic, but eh.
With pirahna plant included in fp1 as well, maybe they can get a stage too to fit in with the rest.
 

Shroob

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Don't need to cite nothin'.

Echo Fighters are alternate costumes that allow for gameplay changes that don't affect the overall balance, which means that at a bare minimum any Echo Fighter must:
  1. Have the exact same proportions. Otherwise they're a clone because their animations were made from scratch.
  2. Share their ability set with their base fighter, or at least have the copy/paste make sense.
Most characters don't fit both these criterion.
Have you met Ryu and Ken? Or Chrom and Roy?

Define balance, because those 2 play absolutely nothing alike from their base character, in fact, Ken is more or less a fully fledged character to be brutally honest. Echo fighter is too malleable of a term. First it meant "Exact clone", then it meant "Okay maybe ONE new move!" and then Ken happened, who has several completely unique moves and much different attributes from Ryu.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Have you met Ryu and Ken? Or Chrom and Roy?

Define balance, because those 2 play absolutely nothing alike from their base character, in fact, Ken is more or less a fully fledged character to be brutally honest. Echo fighter is too malleable of a term. First it meant "Exact clone", then it meant "Okay maybe ONE new move!" and then Ken happened, who has several completely unique moves and much different attributes from Ryu.
Their differences don't change them enough that they have to be balanced separately from their base fighter. While they are different to play, future balancing changes are applied to both of them at the same time. If an Echo Fighter deviates from the main fighter to the point where this is impossible, or would cause problems, they are not an Echo Fighter. EDIT: This is why Dr. Mario is a clone and not an Echo Fighter despite being about as different as one.
 
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Louie G.

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Posting this breakdown here as well, some thoughts that I'm sure have been covered already but here's a concise assessment of the situation.
----

The placement of the mystery number implies that whatever we're dealing with is something WITHIN FP2 itself, as it is sandwiched between Fighter 11 (8972) and the Ancient Armor (8974). So it is unlikely that this is a standalone DLC like a separate Mii Costume or anything like that.

Looking back at FP1, any standalone DLC comes after Rex (who is obviously a bonus costume included in the FP1 package) numerically. Rex is 8507 and the Persona 3 Wig is 8508. Rex comes immediately after Byleth, who is 8506.

Byleth (Challenger Pack 5) - https://ec.nintendo.com/NZ/en/aocs/70050000008506
Rex Mii Costume (Bundled w/ FP1) - https://ec.nintendo.com/NZ/en/aocs/70050000008507
Persona 3 Wig (Standalone DLC) - https://ec.nintendo.com/NZ/en/aocs/70050000008508

Whatever this is, it's something that would be included in the FP2 bundle.
Or some weird inaccuracy or glitch, which is possible as well but is still worth raising an eyebrow at.
----

As for what I think it is, I'm very hesitant to back a full-on brand new fighter, but that's honestly what it looks the most like right now. Perhaps an additional echo fighter, like Octoling. Or a final "thank you" bonus fighter as a bookend for Piranha Plant, which can be received for free with FP2 purchase.

There might be a possibility for a DLC stage also? Or a new mode? We don't really know how they'd handle that yet, since we haven't gotten any in Ultimate.
 
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SNEKeater

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So now we have something new to speculate.

Remember that joke I made about both Lloyd and Yuri coming as two of the three Fighter packs thanks to the Tales of Chun-Li rumor, what if the extra slot is Yuri or vice versa? :p
That would be kinda funny, not one but two anime swordfighters. People on Twitter would be delighted lol.

Tales fans would be happy and wouldn't have to go war for their most wanted. That said we would still need Velvet to make Cutie Gwen Cutie Gwen happy.
 

SKX31

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That stage would be neat because it's a quad-plat stage with a unique diamond shapes layout. I wonder if it would be legal but the top plat would be pretty strong for characters with good ladder combos.
TBF, every kind of stage gives something of an advantage or other. Battlefield benefits characters like :ultcloud: because of sharking under platforms and moves like Climbhazzard being less vurnerable when used under platforms. Not to a huge extent though.

Competitive players usually agree to disqualify stages that provide huge benefits / drawbacks, which is an issue when money's on the line (huge stages can easily lead to winning players running away and camping for extended periods). So in this case it would depend on where the blast zone is (Warioware's blast zone is very close to its platforms for example, so it's not used in tournaments).

Uh

im sorry what?
I presume it's a joke based on the fact that GoT's Dragon appears in Space Jam 2 as one of WB's characters to spectate Lebron's game. If it somehow is a Rathalos though...

WARNER BROS. VS. CAPCOM. Coming 20XX. :4pacman:
 

Shroob

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Their differences don't change them enough that they have to be balanced separately from their base fighter. While they are different to play, future balancing changes are applied to both of them at the same time. If an Echo Fighter deviates from the main fighter to the point where this is impossible, or would cause problems, they are not an Echo Fighter. EDIT: This is why Dr. Mario is a clone and not an Echo Fighter despite being about as different as one.
Aw jeez, I guess I imagined the patch notes where Ken received changes but Ryu didn't.


Oh wait no I didn't, that's happened in the past already,



Sticking to your guns on a term that has changed no less than 3 times in terms of speculation seems like a fan rule just waiting to be broken, and probably would have been had we gotten DLC echoes.
 

Rie Sonomura

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TBF, every kind of stage gives something of an advantage or other. Battlefield benefits characters like :ultcloud: because of sharking under platforms and moves like Climbhazzard being less vurnerable when used under platforms. Not to a huge extent though.

Competitive players usually agree to disqualify stages that provide huge benefits / drawbacks, which is an issue when money's on the line (huge stages can easily lead to winning players running away and camping for extended periods). So in this case it would depend on where the blast zone is (Warioware's blast zone is very close to its platforms for example, so it's not used in tournaments).



I presume it's a joke based on the fact that GoT's Dragon appears in Space Jam 2 as one of WB's characters to spectate Lebron's game. If it somehow is a Rathalos though...

WARNER BROS. VS. CAPCOM. Coming 20XX. :4pacman:
Ah yes, GoT. A very hot topic for the early 2010s... then that horrendous final season happened and people purged it from their collective subconscious
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Aw jeez, I guess I imagined the patch notes where Ken received changes but Ryu didn't.


Oh wait no I didn't, that's happened in the past already,



Sticking to your guns on a term that has changed no less than 3 times in terms of speculation seems like a fan rule just waiting to be broken, and probably would have been had we gotten DLC echoes.
OK sure, but that does nothing to dispute the point that Echo Fighters need to have the exact same proportions so they can reuse animations and share their ability set with their base fighter so the reuse actually makes sense.
 

Shroob

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OK sure, but that does nothing to dispute the point that Echo Fighters need to have the exact same proportions so they can reuse animations and share their ability set with their base fighter so the reuse actually makes sense.
Until they don't.


"Echoes are just melee-style clones!"

"Echoes can MAYBE have new specials! Chrom has Ike's Up B! BUT, they need to have the same attributes as the character they're based on!"

"Echoes are whatever the **** you want them to be cause lolKen."



We stopped getting Echoes at Ken, who was already a borderline unique character. I damn near guarantee you had we gotten anymore, we would have gotten even more drastic changes.
 

Pillow

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Ken was also the only echo to appear in a trailer instead of just an information dump, so he's kind of weird in general. If it is an echo fighter the only ones I can really think that would fit are Shadow the Hedgehog and Octolings, but I'm just feeling like a standalone DLC echo fighter would be kind of strange.
 

Perkilator

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Ken was also the only echo to appear in a trailer instead of just an information dump, so he's kind of weird in general. If it is an echo fighter the only ones I can really think that would fit are Shadow the Hedgehog and Octolings, but I'm just feeling like a standalone DLC echo fighter would be kind of strange.
Actually, :ultrichter: also appeared in :ultsimon:'s trailer.
 

Shroob

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That's not gonna change. Even barring all specifics, the entire premise is that they are extremely asset reuse heavy characters. Removing these requirements makes them not that.
Who said they're removing them? The next logical step of Echoes is simply hitbox adjustments.


In a hairbrain theory, Crash and Coco, same exact moveset, just Coco's shorter. "But then why isn't she a melee clone?", because she's not, simple as that.
 

Mushroomguy12

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Bonus Fighter: Mii Mage!
I feel like another Mii class would be better as base roster for the next game, it would be really strange to have it as the last character, after all of the waves of Mii Costumes have already come out, as there are so many DLC and base mii fighters that would fit the mage class (Ashley, Viridi, Aerith, Veronica) that have already been locked in as swordfighters.
 
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toonito

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I would like another double or triple fighters like pyra/mythra or Pokémon trainer but seems unlikely at this point
However I think having Blue with :001::005::009: would be cool
I also saw some had the idea of having Jack Bros. which consist of 3 SMT characters Jack Frost and Pyro Jack and Jack Ripper which sounds fantastic as SMT content is still absent from smash
even though i'm not keen on another Pokemon Trainer I'd like to see Blue as a boss for PT in classic mode. However instead of using the same pokemon different evolution lines as PT he could use :102::058::130: with type advantages on. I chose these 3 as they've been his most consistent grass (exeggutor), fire (arcanine), and water pokemon throughout the games.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Ken and Ryu started with the same attributes in the base game. Including weight. This is what got him labeled an Echo Fighter. Later patches differentiating them more is just proof of what Sakurai means that Clones and Echo Fighters can be a fairly arbitrary difference.

Dr. Mario did start with different weight and attributes in Ultimate, hence being a Clone instead. (Though do note the term Clone is called Model Swap by Sakurai. Echo Fighter is a different term overall).

Base game labels seem to be all that matters. Or at least, when the character is first introduced in the current game. Would an Echo Fighter in Ultimate's DLC be a different weight and attribute? Probably not. But this could easily change in the next game. Echo Fighters could be the actual new term for a Clone instead of a subset of Clone like it is now.
 
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