DJ Armor Statistics!! Everyone needs to hurry up and finish their people D:<

[Gindler]

I've gone through Ness' spike (pretty sure, mighta been the sourspot though). It doesn't do that much damage (think armor is effected by knockback and damage not sure though). I've gone through DKs spike alot too, Ganon's though yeah you're not going to survive that thing. Gah this is weird.

 

[Naucitos]

I think its a bad idea to test stale moves, not only is it more work, it varies with each hit and you can't be expected to keep track of how many of the last 12 hits of your match were marios backair, its just too much trouble to take advantage of in a match, since there is so much variation.
Also, if you went through ness' downair it was the sourspot, and not the spike

 

[Frown]

Man, I got some Luigi and Bowser stats, but I lost the paper. >.<

This should be stickied, or else it will forgotten. And I do agree that stale moves will make this project a lot harder than it already is.

 

[bigman40]

Alright, if all favor of taking out stale moves, then I'll take them off. However, should we also test the other random things that happen (sourspots, etc.), or just assume they will almost always sweetspot it?

 

[Frown]

Alright, if all favor of taking out stale moves, then I'll take them off. However, should we also test the other random things that happen (sourspots, etc.), or just assume they will almost always sweetspot it?

Well, I think it's up to each tester to decide.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

There's a no stale moves code for use in multiplayer, you know.

I'll do Snake's moves.

Edit: after a small amount of testing, I am getting the same results in training mode that I get in group mode, so I'll do the rest in training mode. It saves a lot of time. Hopefully I can finish this before 11:30.

Edit2: Incomplete results:



Fresh

Jab - Never
Jab 2 - Never
Jab 3 - 50%
Ftilt 1 - 69%
Ftilt 2 - 71%
Dtilt - 54%
Utilt(sweet spot) - 37%!
Utilt(sour spot) - 53%

All Smashes are uncharged.

Forward Smash - 0%!
Up Smash
Mortar Shell - 23%
Down Smash(Mine) - 18%!

Dash attack - 68%

Grenades - 60%
C4 - 39%
Nikita - strong - 29%
Nikita - weak - 101%
Cypher - Never

Nair 1 - Never
Nair 2 - Never
Nair 3 - Never
Nair 4 - 48%

Dair 1 - Never
Dair 2 - Never
Dair 3 - Never
Dair 4- 47%

I'll have to do the rest later.

 

[Silent Beast]

Alright, if all favor of taking out stale moves, then I'll take them off. However, should we also test the other random things that happen (sourspots, etc.), or just assume they will almost always sweetspot it?

Stale Moves:

Testing stale moves is obviously tricky, since there are different levels of staleness, which you won't really be able to keep track of during a match. It would certainly be easier to just test the DJ armor for fresh moves, and always assume that the opponent's move is fresh. That said, there are times when you know that the opponent's move is stale, so I think it would be useful to test for like, the first level of staleness. Does anyone know if there's a specific decay rate constant, like where, for example, the first staleness level decreases knockback by 10%, second staleness level decreases it by another 10%, and so on? That way, we could just calculate the safe percentages based on the fresh-move testing.

Sweetspot/Sourspot:

Since we're going for safety with this list (until what percent can you safely DJ through an opponent's attack), I think we should always assume that the hitbox with the greatest knockback will hit. I would assume that this generally means the sweetspot, though I'm not sure if there are any exceptions. I know Chaco's been wondering if the sourspot on Yoshi's fair has more knockback than the sweetspot does.

 

[Poltergust]

Uh... D-Torr and I forgot again...

DON'T HURT ME! *runs away*

 

[Nul]

MK - Fresh, because we all like him that much.

Each rapid hit tested on the percents listed, and * means fully charged.

MK
Jab----300%<
Ftilt--249%/300%</88%
Dtilt--175%~246% (Feet/Cape~Swordtip)
Utilt--60%~80% (Swordtip~Feet)
FSmash-56%-*32%
DSmash-54%-*34%/46%-*26%
USmash-300%<-*300%</300%<-*300%/51%-*38%
Nair---71%
Fair---300%</300%</73%
Dair---102%
Bair---300%</300%</79%
Uair---80%
B------300%</91%(Last Hit)
SideB--257%/77%(Last Hit)
DownB--79%
UpB----18%/183%
Glide--60%

EDIT: small discovery, apparently MK works off tips too, Utilt updated
EDIT2: OK, maybe not everytime, Dtilt updated, retested every move, nothing else changed

 

[Poltergust]

Meta Knight's up-B shouldn't get through the armor at such a low percentage. It's ridiculous. >_>

 

[Nul]

Well, I retested each move at different angles after my sudden discovery, and only the D/Utilts work of the "tip" mechanic, and I began working on stales for MK:

Jab----300%<
Ftilt--300%</300%</168%
Dtilt--300%< (Any)
Utilt--113%~162% (Swordtip~Feet)

My guess is that stale attacks require around double the % from fresh? I'll keep going.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Meta Knight's up-B shouldn't get through the armor at such a low percentage. It's ridiculous. >_>

Not as ridiculous as the percentages the Mortar and Rocket Launcher cut off your SA.
Mortar 23%
Rocket Lancher(Forward Smash) 0%!!!!
Sakurai nerfed the SA again.

I can't find the time to finish at this time.

 

[Chaco]

For Snake, test the box.

It could happen...

 

[Depster]

If we test the box we need Luigi's kick, too

 

[bigman40]

Then you people test it. I'm ****ing pissed right now and I'm not doing **** for a little while.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I will test his bair, uair, and box when I get the chance to.

 

[bigman40]

Alright, I'll update this stuff by Sunday cause I have to film all day Saturday.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Ok. I finished all of Snake's fresh Moves.



Fresh

Bair(Sweet Spot)---43%
Bair (Sour Spot)----52%
Bair(Soft hit)-------85%

Uair(strong hit)----48%
Uair(soft hit)-------104%

Snake's Box
Up(strong)----174%
Up(soft)-------193%
Side(strong)--173%
Side(strong)--193%
Down(strong)-172%
Down(strong)-195%

 

[Chaco]

Cool ****.

 

[Gindler]

I've tanked snakes Fsmash before. Are you charging it? (maybe I wasn't hit with a fresh one, it was doubles afterall)

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

NO. All Smashes are uncharged.

 

[Yikarur]

I canceled this project a while ago because of inaccuracy. Not even one of all your results are a clear,accurate result. that is because the Trainings Mode has no decay multiplier. The Non Stale Multiplier is 1.05 which doesn't take effect in Trainingsmode. (1.05 is a lot!)
than you have the idea to do it in multiplayer.
If you discover a move which does exactly 1% (which isn't possible because of the decay multiplier) you are able to test the SA (I want debug mode ). But even with a move which does exactly 1% you have the trouble that the knockback is different from 40% and 40.1%. example:the Fsmash of Kirby doesn't break the SA at 43% but at 43.8% (invented numbers)
Perhaps we don't need that exactness but I'm a perfectionist when I'm working with something like this.
and I don't want lose a tournament because of a 1 or 2 percent xD

 

[bigman40]

Even though we can't be exact, it's at least good to know a range where the moves takes us out of our DJ. Most of the time, it's not gonna rely on 1 or 2 percent, unless you're taking a huge gamble on it.

 

[Mmac]

Before I left, I did some research on his DJArmour. The Armour is based on Knockback rather than Damage. Though the more damaged you are, the less resistance it can take. If the move has a Set-Knockback (The move will do the same amount of Knockback no matter how damage the opponent is), the Armour will always resist the hit. If we can figure out the Equation of the Breaking point of the Armour, it could give us better results and make our work easier.


Then again, I guess that's the same thing as the Armour can only take X Damage from Y Move before it breaks, in a way....

 

[Shiri]

Mmac has something similar to the right idea.

If the jump is designed remotely (we know the design isn't similar anymore) to the same skeleton as the previous jumps, we can infer that attacks which have more physical force behind them break the jump earlier, which is why Snake's attacks make the jump seem so weak (even though it's still really weak). Meta Knight's attacks look really bad for the jump, too. Stale moves will have a noted effect on the jump, as the knockback trends I've seen decrease at a non-constant rate. It's important to note that it doesn't matter how much damage a move does, as much as the knockback it does, but the percent at which you get hit determines whether or not you'll get broken, so remember your damage percent matters; the move's damage, as a percent, does not, but its knockback does. As the list grows, I wouldn't be surprised to see many characters breaking around 50%, even though Melee Marth forward smash tip broke at 60% (one of the more forceful attacks in terms of physics). This is a clear effort made by developers to stop Yoshi from living to 300%+ (somewhat paralleled with Melee's survival rates, but adjusted for percentage). Unfortunately, I think they put too much emphasis on "not living to x" instead of "living to at least y" and the result is the unfortunate jump formula we have for this game.

You would think in a game designed for everyone to live forever that our means of survivability would increase at a rate similar to most other characters.

Anyway, discovering these percents is pretty good work for everyone contributing and these numbers will add lots of depth to recovery and tanking gameplay, even though I've all but given up on tanking with Yoshi anymore.

Also, Mmac, static hits are not always resisted by the jump. It's just that most hits with static knockback are weak enough where they won't break the jump in the first place. You probably meant that all static knockback hits that are weak enough will never break the jump, but I know what you mean. We have to be very careful about our wording, though.

If anybody can find any correlation between Yoshi's jump and another physical statistic, we can really get rolling with how to determine...not a formula, but rather, a more readily estimatable range for survivability. In Melee, we could test the jump by crouch canceling since they ran off of the same breaking points (which is very interesting if you think about it). If we can find something like that, it would be pretty amazing.

 

[Frown]

While testing this, most attacks broke the DJ (even Mario's fireball) at a percentage that made Yoshi fly about the width of Battlefield. This only worked for horizontal knockback though.

 

[Silent Beast]

Bump for new data and for old data that was never put in the OP.

Ok, Diddy Kong - Fresh

The % shown is the first % when it will go through, so for example for Ftilt it won't break armor at 127% but it will on 128%.

Jab - 999% (Any of the 3 hits)
Ftilt - 128%
Dtilt - 193%
Utilt - 79%
Fsmash - First hit 300+% | Second hit 57%
(Note: this is just the second hit on its own, first hit will gain you some %)
(Tip: If a Diddy trys to Fsmash you as you come back from a ledge, DJ right into them and you will absorb the first hit and avoid the second)
Dsmash - 61%
Usmash - 85% (3 hits, too hard to do individually)
Nair - 109%
Fair - 74% (Strong initial hitbox)
Bair - 88%
Dair - 65%
Uair - 83%
Neutral B (Peanuts) - Uncharged 999% | Charged 300+%
Forward B - 0%
Down B (Nannerz) - 999%
Up B - 77%

I will try and get decayed done tommorow. Also I'll take Jigglypuff.

There's a no stale moves code for use in multiplayer, you know.

I'll do Snake's moves.

Edit: after a small amount of testing, I am getting the same results in training mode that I get in group mode, so I'll do the rest in training mode. It saves a lot of time. Hopefully I can finish this before 11:30.

Edit2: Incomplete results:



Fresh

Jab - Never
Jab 2 - Never
Jab 3 - 50%
Ftilt 1 - 69%
Ftilt 2 - 71%
Dtilt - 54%
Utilt(sweet spot) - 37%!
Utilt(sour spot) - 53%

All Smashes are uncharged.

Forward Smash - 0%!
Up Smash
Mortar Shell - 23%
Down Smash(Mine) - 18%!

Dash attack - 68%

Grenades - 60%
C4 - 39%
Nikita - strong - 29%
Nikita - weak - 101%
Cypher - Never

Nair 1 - Never
Nair 2 - Never
Nair 3 - Never
Nair 4 - 48%

Dair 1 - Never
Dair 2 - Never
Dair 3 - Never
Dair 4- 47%

I'll have to do the rest later.

MK - Fresh, because we all like him that much.

Each rapid hit tested on the percents listed, and * means fully charged.

MK
Jab----300%<
Ftilt--249%/300%</88%
Dtilt--175%~246% (Feet/Cape~Swordtip)
Utilt--60%~80% (Swordtip~Feet)
FSmash-56%-*32%
DSmash-54%-*34%/46%-*26%
USmash-300%<-*300%</300%<-*300%/51%-*38%
Nair---71%
Fair---300%</300%</73%
Dair---102%
Bair---300%</300%</79%
Uair---80%
B------300%</91%(Last Hit)
SideB--257%/77%(Last Hit)
DownB--79%
UpB----18%/183%
Glide--60%

EDIT: small discovery, apparently MK works off tips too, Utilt updated
EDIT2: OK, maybe not everytime, Dtilt updated, retested every move, nothing else changed

Ok. I finished all of Snake's fresh Moves.



Fresh

Bair(Sweet Spot)---43%
Bair (Sour Spot)----52%
Bair(Soft hit)-------85%

Uair(strong hit)----48%
Uair(soft hit)-------104%

Snake's Box
Up(strong)----174%
Up(soft)-------193%
Side(strong)--173%
Side(strong)--193%
Down(strong)-172%
Down(strong)-195%

Marth: (tipper in parentheses)

All moves fresh and done in training mode. All smashes uncharged. Thanks to Scott! for helping me get this data.

Jab (1st hit): >250% (199%)
Ftilt: 146% (75%)
Utilt: 57% (59%) *
Dtilt: 245% (184%)
Fsmash: 49% (9%)
Usmash (foot): 0%
Usmash (sword): (58%) **
Dsmash (1st hit): 51% (38%)
Dsmash (2nd hit): 40% (42%) *
Nair (1st hit): >250% (>250%)
Nair (2nd hit): 86% (43%)
Nair (both hits): 82% (37%)
Fair: 109% (68%)
Uair: 107% (68%) ***
Bair: 89% (62%)
Dair: 101% (62%)
B (fully charged): 21% (6%)
B (uncharged): 99% (69%)
Side-B (1st hit): >250% (>250%)
Up-B: 42% ****
Dash Attack: 80% (46%)

* we were going to double check these values, but we forgot to (probably will do so Tuesday night)
** only seems to be tipper
*** uair is stupidly easy to tipper
**** no apparent tipper

 

[bigman40]

Alright. I'll get this updated by this weekend.

 

[Yikarur]

my holidays are starting tomorow and than I have MORE TIME THAN.. well enough time xD

when I'm finished with the frame data I'll test this, because I'm sure that 90% of data posted here is inaccurate. And I'm a perfectionist so I want it as accurate as possible

 

[Sharky]

my lazy contribution at a time I don't have the opportunity to test:

fox shine does not break ever.

OMG U DIDN' NO THAT DID U?????

lol I might do some stuff over the weekend, though.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I found myself wanting these a few days ago sooooo anyone still wanna do this besides me?

 

[Frown]

Oh wow, I remember this. I actually started gathering stats for Bowser, but never finished. I'll see it I have some time to waste later on.

 

[Sharky]

waiting to get my wii back then I'll get on it lol

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Bowser's Side b always breaks it gogogogogo add it lmao

 

[Teh Future]

I don't really understand how his armor works. It seems stronger as soon as it starts and then gets easier to hit him out of. Is this wrong?

 

[Frown]

The armor breaks as soon as the knockback of the attack is more than about halfway across FD. Mario's ftilt wouldn't normally send Yoshi this far until 131%, and that's where the DJ armor breaks.

 

[Shiri]

That seems pretty arbitrary, although I do get the general idea that you're putting across.

I'm sure there is some pretty not-so-complex formula that the game determines for all this, but nobody has either gotten the chance or cared to look into it. Of course, I could be really wrong and the game could have a super complex super cryptic way to determine things about the jump.

So, yeah. I dunno.

 

[Airborne]

yeah, i'm liking that theory... how about we just try to find every little nitpick of why yoshi can't do what on paper, like how bwett and his friend figured out why we can't PS projectiles for all 6 frames facing forward, in perspective of said projectile.

it might actually help us in the long run...

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

You know what Imma Get these Statistics myself D: I want them lol

 

[Z'zgashi]

I know this hasn't been used forever but I was bored so I found out mk's stuff. None of these are decayed AT ALL, I'm 100% positive. Smashes are also not charged, I just c-sticked for these.

Jab: 300+ (on all hits)
Ftilt: Hit 1-251%, Hit 2-300%, Hit 3-88%
Dtilt: 221%
Utilt: 60%
Fsmash: 56%
Usmash: Hit 1-300+, Hit 2-300+, Hit 3-46%
Dsmash: Hit 1-54%, Hit 2-46%
Nair: Strong Hitbox-65%, Week Hitbox-130%
Fair: Hit 1-300+, Hit 2-300+, Hit 3-73%
Dair: 103%
Bair: Hit 1-300+, Hit 2-300+, Hit 3-73%
Uair: 80%
Neutral B: Weak Hitbox-300+ (on all hits), Strong Hitbox-95%
Side B: Week Hitbox-300+ (on all hits), Strong Hitbox-77%
Down B: 79%
Up B: 35% (WTF?!)
Glide: 60%
Dash: 120%

Things I found out:
* Ftilt doesnt go from weakest to strongest, it goes Medium -> Weak -> Strong
* Fair and bair are identicle
* The glide OoShuttle Loop is the same as glide attack (I checked just to make sure you know)
* You guys forgot to add dash attack to the mix so I added it myself :3