Dixie Kong's Barrel Of Support Spirits. Farewell Everyone, Thank You ALL For Making This Thread An Excellent Place For DK Fans!

[Mushroomguy12]

At this rate, I'll be lucky if Funky and Tiny get enough supporters by 2030.

I think they should all be added to Mario Kart at the very least.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I think they should all be added to Mario Kart at the very least.

Yeah, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one, the Mario Kart staff has stepped into their comfort zone since 8 and refuses to get out of it, not even for air.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Yeah, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one, the Mario Kart staff has stepped into their comfort zone since 8 and refuses to get out of it, not even for air.

Yeah, they can't even add these characters to the garbage gacha games like Mario Kart Tour and Dr. Mario World where they are literally adding everyone and their mother. But hey, we have our 10th recolor of Mario!

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Yeah, they can't even add these characters to the garbage gacha games like Mario Kart Tour and Dr. Mario World where they are literally adding everyone and their mother. But hey, we have our 10th recolor of Mario!

At least World is slightly more creative, even if Goomba Tower is scrapping the bottom of the barrel to the point that you reach the iron ring and make it spark fire. Cranky would be livid at this.

One of these days, one of these divisions oughta be fused, like when it happened with one of the R&D ones in the period of Super Mario Run. At least then it'd cause some creative change, as it is we have to wait for either Miyamoto to retire, or Koizumi to get more involvement with things.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

At least World is slightly more creative, even if Goomba Tower is scrapping the bottom of the barrel to the point that you reach the iron ring and make it spark fire. Cranky would be livid at this.

One of these days, one of these divisions oughta be fused, like when it happened with one of the R&D ones in the period of Super Mario Run. At least then it'd cause some creative change, as it is we have to wait for either Miyamoto to retire, or Koizumi to get more involvement with things.

In other news, the Cheaper than Diddy Twitter account is still going alive and well!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

In other news, the Cheaper than Diddy Twitter account is still going alive and well!

>DKC3
Incidentally, Super Famicoms are being handed out for free by the Japan Retro Game Association to stave off boredom. Wonder if some get bundled with games.

Meanwhile, this is oddly fitting...

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[BirthNote]

If I recall in DCK, she has some basic attacks with her hair, the throw, and the hover.
YES- she does need to do all of that (and better than how DK's ^B works for it).
But that's exactly why I think she could be an echo. Just give her those things.
Maybe it's more like Isabelle to Villager.

That's ultimatley how I see her being added.
With the Animal Crate item, which would be part of her development timeline.

Otherwise, they make her far too separate, and not of the DKC world... or we just dont get her and instead get Cranky or an Echo Funky.

I cannot see this happening any other way.

I didn't reply immediately this time because Dukemon102's response was perfect. However going off of this, your vision for Echo Dixie goes against what Smash has firmly established as Echoes. Dark Pit, Lucina, Daisy, Dark Samus, Richter, and Chrom only differ from the base character in stat tweaks; even Chrom for as hyped up as he was for having a different Up B plays identically to Roy; I went and made sure for each of them. The attacks are virtually the same, and outside of superficial animations we're looking at the same base fighter. We can't point to Ken to justify Echoes being different when he's the exception. He's outnumbered 6:1 and only gets that designation because he started out as that 40 years ago. We shouldn't point at an exception and hope Dixie gets just as lucky.

For all the talk of sticking to DKC you have to see just how different Rare made sure to make Dixie from Diddy. The draw of each DKC was that each Kong brought their own gameplay; you weren't just swapping red for pink when you chose Dixie, you got unique abilities, different speed and animations. You literally tackled the level and bosses differently when you played as Dixie; Rare put so much effort into making them stand apart that it's surprising that nobody really acknowledges this. This was during a time when it was an industry standard to take the main character, change their color and then pretend it's a brand new character, leaving the same animations and everything else. That's exactly how Luigi started out, how Ken did and Mugman from Cuphead. Dixie's closer to being as differentiated from Diddy as Zero is from Mega Man X, and this is in a game where your main functions are to run, jump, throw and tackle. If you can, go and compare the 2 Kongs' differences, and also do the same for DK, Kiddy, Cranky and Funky.

An excellent way to make Dixie feel like her DKC self is to have her be the most broken Kong besides Funky, but a good compromise to that is to firmly establish her as a hair-based fighter. In her games, Dixie uses her hair for most of her abilities: movement, attacking, grabbing, throwing. She would need to reflect that in more ways than 'We changed her Up B, Dash Attack and how she grabs people'. There's plenty of ways to attack with her hair and that extends to throwing; she's shown to move with her hair in 3 different ways. There are ways to make her feel DKC-inspired without being Diddy, with a twist, as there's stuff from the games neither Kong uses in Smash, especially since Diddy draws more from '64. I'd argue K. Rool is currently the most DKC of the 3.

 

[SeashoreWar]

Wow, that's awesome!

Cranky looks like Cranky, which is easier said than done. The Kongs' noses and snouts are always kind of tricky, but you've become an expert. I'll say one thing, maybe it's just me, but the three big tufts of beard shag in the center of his beard almost make it look like something's inside it. I'm a little biased in favor of his green vest from DKC2, but he looks great.

Kalypso's new outfit is a huge improvement. You made her look fashionable but still "Kremling-like" though I think her afro hair
is a little too iconic to leave behind.

Think you nailed this new Dread Kong. The way his dreads fall on his face make him look really cool! The expression gives him some fun energy you don't see in DK characters usually.

Wizpig looks vaguely younger. Maybe it's the more "tanned" (pork rinds???) skin? I was going to say, his head looks a little "flat" without his grey crown thing...but looking at a render, apparently that's hair???????????? Uhhhhhhhh OK, I think I see why you removed it! Though just making it a crown or headpiece might have worked. I like the W belt buckle! It's a nice update for the character.

Thanks! Is it a good thing it looks like something's in his beard? Lol

I see what you mean with the hair. Maybe I can just give her the afro or use the same ponytail, but keep it an afro instead of long hair.

I'm glad you came up with the Street Fighter idea for Dread!

Yeah I realized that it was hair instead of part of his headpiece and that's why it wasn't added lol. Giving him a crown of sort is a good idea!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I didn't reply immediately this time because Dukemon102's response was perfect. However going off of this, your vision for Echo Dixie goes against what Smash has firmly established as Echoes. Dark Pit, Lucina, Daisy, Dark Samus, Richter, and Chrom only differ from the base character in stat tweaks; even Chrom for as hyped up as he was for having a different Up B plays identically to Roy; I went and made sure for each of them. The attacks are virtually the same, and outside of superficial animations we're looking at the same base fighter. We can't point to Ken to justify Echoes being different when he's the exception. He's outnumbered 6:1 and only gets that designation because he started out as that 40 years ago. We shouldn't point at an exception and hope Dixie gets just as lucky.

For all the talk of sticking to DKC you have to see just how different Rare made sure to make Dixie from Diddy. The draw of each DKC was that each Kong brought their own gameplay; you weren't just swapping red for pink when you chose Dixie, you got unique abilities, different speed and animations. You literally tackled the level and bosses differently when you played as Dixie; Rare put so much effort into making them stand apart that it's surprising that nobody really acknowledges this. This was during a time when it was an industry standard to take the main character, change their color and then pretend it's a brand new character, leaving the same animations and everything else. That's exactly how Luigi started out, how Ken did and Mugman from Cuphead. Dixie's closer to being as differentiated from Diddy as Zero is from Mega Man X, and this is in a game where your main functions are to run, jump, throw and tackle. If you can, go and compare the 2 Kongs' differences, and also do the same for DK, Kiddy, Cranky and Funky.

An excellent way to make Dixie feel like her DKC self is to have her be the most broken Kong besides Funky, but a good compromise to that is to firmly establish her as a hair-based fighter. In her games, Dixie uses her hair for most of her abilities: movement, attacking, grabbing, throwing. She would need to reflect that in more ways than 'We changed her Up B, Dash Attack and how she grabs people'. There's plenty of ways to attack with her hair and that extends to throwing; she's shown to move with her hair in 3 different ways. There are ways to make her feel DKC-inspired without being Diddy, with a twist, as there's stuff from the games neither Kong uses in Smash, especially since Diddy draws more from '64. I'd argue K. Rool is currently the most DKC of the 3.

And then you have Ken, who does have stat differences.

Chrom is literally a different B move no matter how you slice it. Dixie using her own Up B is weird how?

Chrom does not play identically to Roy. They play similar. It's not just his unique ability alone to not have a sweetspot, but his differences do exist. They're small.

Look, I get people don't like the idea of Echo Dixie, but Echoes do actually have tangible differences. Also, every Echo has animation differences, quite a few too. Dark Samus besides that has electrical abilities in place of the fire ones, actually changing how she's usable. She actually has some tiny differences that makes her far more usable than Samus right now in competitive play. Likewise, Chrom and Lucina's lack of a sweetspot make them better as characters.

Dixie can easily have small differences and be an Echo without any issues. She can just as easily have a slightly different throw using her hair. Like, the only major change she is required to have even then is a new ledge attack, as she can easily perform all of Diddy's current moveset without fail. Animations aren't a remote issue either way.

Echoes don't work the same way you think they do if you think only home game stuff matters. Dark Samus is hard proof of that. She literally is just as different as you mentioned, but still has small differences from Samus in Smash. Dixie doesn't need massive changes to represent her fine. If anything, the only thing lacking that's key to her character is a partner at best. Can she easily do her hair stuff in Smash while being an Echo? Yes. Because as I noted, Up B and Throws are really the only thing required at most to make her work well. And a new ledge attack(with her hair, sure). Small animation differences for her neutral A moves makes sense too.

She works fine as an Echo or a semi-clone either way. Since really the only thing that would force her to be a semi-clone is having a different bodyshape. Ken is already a case of "breaking the line between an echo and a semi-clone" as well. Dixie is pretty on Chrom tier of required changes. Ken had far more than any Echo to date. Hell, Dr. Mario is a perfect example of what is effectively an Echo in all but name(and roster spot) that is still on Ken tier levels of differences in the end. It's pretty easy for Dixie to be a faithful character and an Echo regardless. It was never hard. It's still odd she wasn't an easy base-game echo either. Unless Sakurai really wanted the whole partner thing, I guess?

The only point to make is we have no reason to believe Echoes will be DLC, so she'd be a semi-clone in that case. But that's really it going in favor for her having to be a semi-clone at this time.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying to expect her as an Echo. But "she can't be" and "she won't be" are not really good points to make. As I noted a little above, if she's DLC, she isn't an Echo. That's kind of it. Obviously, as well, no reason you should like the idea. But you should accept it as a possibility. As long as she has the same bodyshape as Diddy(and DK funnily enough), she has the possibility of being an Echo. Also, worth noting that Chrom's Up B works because he could easily retool it from Ike's animations, who has a similar bodyshape to him. Donkey Kong's Up B has the right skeleton so you can reuse it for Dixie's Up B, so that's certainly possible as is. She'd absolutely require more animations, but that's like every Echo, so. It's not saying much.

 

[BirthNote]

And then you have Ken, who does have stat differences.

Chrom is literally a different B move no matter how you slice it. Dixie using her own Up B is weird how?

Chrom does not play identically to Roy. They play similar. It's not just his unique ability alone to not have a sweetspot, but his differences do exist. They're small.

Look, I get people don't like the idea of Echo Dixie, but Echoes do actually have tangible differences. Also, every Echo has animation differences, quite a few too. Dark Samus besides that has electrical abilities in place of the fire ones, actually changing how she's usable. She actually has some tiny differences that makes her far more usable than Samus right now in competitive play. Likewise, Chrom and Lucina's lack of a sweetspot make them better as characters.

Dixie can easily have small differences and be an Echo without any issues. She can just as easily have a slightly different throw using her hair. Like, the only major change she is required to have even then is a new ledge attack, as she can easily perform all of Diddy's current moveset without fail. Animations aren't a remote issue either way.

Echoes don't work the same way you think they do if you think only home game stuff matters. Dark Samus is hard proof of that. She literally is just as different as you mentioned, but still has small differences from Samus in Smash. Dixie doesn't need massive changes to represent her fine. If anything, the only thing lacking that's key to her character is a partner at best. Can she easily do her hair stuff in Smash while being an Echo? Yes. Because as I noted, Up B and Throws are really the only thing required at most to make her work well. And a new ledge attack(with her hair, sure). Small animation differences for her neutral A moves makes sense too.

She works fine as an Echo or a semi-clone either way. Since really the only thing that would force her to be a semi-clone is having a different bodyshape. Ken is already a case of "breaking the line between an echo and a semi-clone" as well. Dixie is pretty on Chrom tier of required changes. Ken had far more than any Echo to date. Hell, Dr. Mario is a perfect example of what is effectively an Echo in all but name(and roster spot) that is still on Ken tier levels of differences in the end. It's pretty easy for Dixie to be a faithful character and an Echo regardless. It was never hard. It's still odd she wasn't an easy base-game echo either. Unless Sakurai really wanted the whole partner thing, I guess?

The only point to make is we have no reason to believe Echoes will be DLC, so she'd be a semi-clone in that case. But that's really it going in favor for her having to be a semi-clone at this time.

The differences are miniscule. For as much as D. Samus and Chrom were hyped up, they play identically to their base moveset. Same smash attacks and animations. Same grabs and animations. Same throws and animations. Same jabs. Same aerials and animations. Chrom has 1 move that isn't Roy's but otherwise moves, swings, counters, grabs, runs and throws like Roy. Dark Samus has all of Samus's attacks with her own cosmetic flair plus different run and idle, but for all intents and purposes is heavily derived from Samus. She's not even Dr. Mario-level distinct as she has nothing that she does that no other fighter does. Outside of technical data and cosmetic flair you'd have to really dig deep and see what the differences in 6/7 Echoes are between their base characters.

Dixie's biggest criticism since Brawl was "LOL Wig Diddy" and now the community at large expects her fandom to swallow that pill because of the power of marketing. Advocating for an Echo slot allows people to sweep her under the rug so she doesn't compete with their most-wanteds and keeps her from getting recognized beyond a potential Echo. This is doing more harm for her than good in the long run.

We don't need a slower Diddy with DK's UpB if she gets in. Her air game and grab/throw game need to be all her own, along with her canon Dash Attack and a strong emphasis on hair attacks/movement. That alone disqualifies a faithful Dixie from the Echo category. You can make a convincing semi-clone out of her, preferably like Wolf is to Fox but an Echo simply won't cut it for a character who uses her hair in more ways than Shantae, Tails, and Rayman can use their equivalents combined. She works fine as a well-distinguished semi-clone and unique but certainly not an Echo.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The differences are miniscule. For as much as D. Samus and Chrom were hyped up, they play identically to their base moveset.

We know they don't. This completely wrong. So is the idea they're all miniscule. Do some research here. For that matter, as long as you continued to paint them incorrectly, you're going to make the point against her being an Echo worse. I agree she'd be better as a semi-clone, but your idea she can't be an Echo is based entirely on misinformation.

Same smash attacks and animations. Same grabs and animations. Same throws and animations. Same jabs. Same aerials and animations. Chrom has 1 move that isn't Roy's but otherwise moves, swings, counters, grabs, runs and throws like Roy. Dark Samus has all of Samus's attacks with her own cosmetic flair plus different run and idle, but for all intents and purposes is heavily derived from Samus. She's not even Dr. Mario-level distinct as she has nothing that she does that no other fighter does. Outside of technical data and cosmetic flair you'd have to really dig deep and see what the differences in 6/7 Echoes are between their base characters.

And yet have different knockback and properties in almost every case except the grab and counter. Really, do your research better. Chrom never played identical. In fact, the only one almost identical is Daisy and that's it, and that's due to 0 gameplay differences at any time outside of a hurtbox. 6/7 Echoes play similarly. 1/7 is near impossible to note that.

Also, fyi, many animations have differences. Usually aesthetic. Sometimes not just aesthetic.

Dixie's biggest criticism since Brawl was "LOL Wig Diddy" and now the community at large expects her fandom to swallow that pill because of the power of marketing. Advocating for an Echo slot allows people to sweep her under the rug so she doesn't compete with their most-wanteds and keeps her from getting recognized beyond a potential Echo. This is doing more harm for her than good in the long run.

This has nothing to do with that here. What people are saying is they realize Dixie is possible to make an Echo because she can do everything Diddy does but literally his ledge attack, fits his proportions, and needs little work to add her unique abilities.

Which is literally all Echoes need.

We don't need a slower Diddy with DK's UpB if she gets in. Her air game and grab/throw game need to be all her own, along with her canon Dash Attack and a strong emphasis on hair attacks/movement. That alone disqualifies a faithful Dixie from the Echo category. You can make a convincing semi-clone out of her, preferably like Wolf is to Fox but an Echo simply won't cut it for a character who uses her hair in more ways than Shantae, Tails, and Rayman can use their equivalents combined. She works fine as a well-distinguished semi-clone and unique but certainly not an Echo.

No. That alone makes you dislike the idea. That doesn't make it remotely anywhere near unfaithful. She easily can be faithful and be an Echo without any issues.

Wolf doesn't play anything like Fox but still used him as a base. On the other hand, he could've been an Echo using his original model. His new models are not the same proportions to begin with. None of those points make any sense beyond that because that has no relevance to her being an Echo or not.

To be an Echo, the only thing required is whether you can potentially perform the same moves(with maybe one or two changed out) and have to have the same bodyshapes. What do you know, she fits both requirements. She can potentially be an Echo. That much works fine. Can she be faithful? Yes. She can use her hair in other moves. She can perform slight animation differences in various moves or even have slight damage changes. Lucina and Chrom are not played "the same" as their counterpart and any good player will confirm that. You have to play them differently due to their different playstyle. With no sweetspot mechanic, they cannot perform the same kind of combos. Richter and Simon have two different holy water attacks. One does fire damage, one does not. One blows up things like Bob-Ombs instantly, or regular Bombs against Link. One doesn't. They require different strategies at times. The rest of their moveset is the same. Daisy only has slightly better hurtboxes than Peach(which is why she's used more too, because she can dodge moves better), a key element in who to choose. Dark Samus actually has different animations and she's able to do things Samus can't in practice. I forget the details, but she's yet another who ultimately plays differently and is used more because of that. Literally the only Echoes that aren't extensively used over the other at best is Dark Pit(who doesn't have any core gameplay factors that help) and Ken because he and Ryu are used highly differently. There's no easy "choice over the other" at that point.

I suggest you do a lot more research on Echoes if you think they play exactly the same. That's never once been true. And never will be. Not to be fair, you can't tell with Daisy as easily since her hurtboxes is different, and that's it. You can tell with Dark Pit who has a different Side B, along with a different Final Smash. You actually could with Daisy due to an error in a previous build where her Turnips were worse. Ironically, that was the only thing worse than Peach, since Peach simply has worse dodges than Daisy. What they play like, in reality is "similar" to "fairly different' in every single case without fail. As long as they have differences in any of their gameplay, they will never play "exactly the same". That's not just misleading, but that's misunderstanding how Echoes work. All Echoes have to have some kind of gameplay difference, no matter how small, to become an Echo. They also have to have the same bodyshape. Outside of Dr. Mario, who is effectively an Echo at best, the actual clones have different bodyshapes overall but similar ones to their original character.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

Man wouldn't it be awesome if Nintendo was making/announced a new DK game we could discuss and then play instead of having this tired Dixie as an echo debate for the 700th time? Or hell just announced Dixie as a DLC fighter already!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hell, I want her unique too. Don't get me wrong.

But "can't", "won't", and "shouldn't" aren't the same thing.

Right now, it's leaning towards "won't". She clearly can be represented fine with all those animations and still be an echo. We know Echoes can have unique stuff without a new terminology being used. She's not Isabelle, who couldn't be an Echo due to the wrong bodyshape. The "personality" stuff is a bonus, but not the core reason it just won't work. Should she? Honestly, I don't think she should. But it's been proven constantly that she's able to fit the echo mold. As long as you understand how they work, she can do everything necessary via animations/damage/values/etc. and still be an Echo. The only way she can't literally be an Echo is if she has a partner planned. That's kind of it.

You can say I'm playing devil's advocate, but if people are expecting her to be an Echo, they aren't wrong whatsoever. That's a completely reasonable expectation. That doesn't make it a favorable view at all. And nobody said it should be the popular view either.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

Man wouldn't it be awesome if Nintendo was making/announced a new DK game we could discuss and then play instead of having this tired Dixie as an echo debate for the 700th time? Or hell just announced Dixie as a DLC fighter already!

There are rumors that Nintendo wants to start pushing the Donkey Kong IP more, which would likely end up taking the form of a new major title. Assuming it's true, this may bode well for Dixie's chances as a DLC character, as it's fairly common for DLC characters to coincide with recent or upcoming releases in some form (though you'd have to imagine that Dixie is a significant major character in whatever project might be in the pipeline).

Again, take all of this with a grain of salt, since nothing is concrete outside of a few circumstantial decisions. But gosh would it be nice to have something new to talk about...

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

There are rumors that Nintendo wants to start pushing the Donkey Kong IP more, which would likely end up taking the form of a new major title. Assuming it's true, this may bode well for Dixie's chances as a DLC character, as it's fairly common for DLC characters to coincide with recent or upcoming releases in some form (though you'd have to imagine that Dixie is a significant major character in whatever project might be in the pipeline).

Again, take all of this with a grain of salt, since nothing is concrete outside of a few circumstantial decisions. But gosh would it be nice to have something new to talk about...

You gotta admit though, they've been oddly quiet about major first-party projects lately. Besides Animal Crossing and Xenoblade Chronicles' remaster, that's pretty much it for this year so far. Hell, BOTW2 still doesn't have a release date and we don't know what their holiday game even is.

There might be some big things planned by them for next year, if things quiet down in the world by then.

Until that time, there really isn't much to do here at all, so best to do other things.

 

[OnyanRings]

Yeah, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one, the Mario Kart staff has stepped into their comfort zone since 8 and refuses to get out of it, not even for air.

Here's your new Mario Kart 9 character bro

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

**** as much as I hate all the lazy palette swap and generic mook characters we have gotten in the crappy mobile titles I gotta admit Dr. Goomba Stack is kinda charming and inspired IMO. Better than Dr. Dr. Metal Mario or something...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

**** as much as I hate all the lazy palette swap and generic mook characters we have gotten in the crappy mobile titles I gotta admit Dr. Goomba Stack is kinda charming and inspired IMO. Better than Dr. Dr. Metal Mario or something...

Dr. Metal Mario originated in Dr. Mario 64. That's honestly one of the good ones to come back.

Besides that, Metal Mario is actually a different person in the Mario Kart series. So it could be Dr. Mario going Metal, or Metal Mario becoming a Doctor and still make sense. Either way, I agree there's too many annoying recolors and not enough actual other characters showing up(Dixie included).

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Hell, I want her unique too. Don't get me wrong.

But "can't", "won't", and "shouldn't" aren't the same thing.

Right now, it's leaning towards "won't". She clearly can be represented fine with all those animations and still be an echo. We know Echoes can have unique stuff without a new terminology being used. She's not Isabelle, who couldn't be an Echo due to the wrong bodyshape. The "personality" stuff is a bonus, but not the core reason it just won't work. Should she? Honestly, I don't think she should. But it's been proven constantly that she's able to fit the echo mold. As long as you understand how they work, she can do everything necessary via animations/damage/values/etc. and still be an Echo. The only way she can't literally be an Echo is if she has a partner planned. That's kind of it.

You can say I'm playing devil's advocate, but if people are expecting her to be an Echo, they aren't wrong whatsoever. That's a completely reasonable expectation. That doesn't make it a favorable view at all. And nobody said it should be the popular view either.

I've mentioned this many times before but if Isabelle couldn't be an echo because her body shape difference is too much from Villager than I really don't believe making DK's up b would that easy to transfer to her considering the different body shapes and sizes as well as the fact that DK has two variations of his Up b would require more effort. Also there's her ponytail which would require different body frames and polygons (the mods in previous games that used her as a skin looks really off especially her ponytail, I certainly don't think this looks right at all for her) besides that with all the references she's has in Ultimate (mii hat, spirit battle which is represented by Isabelle no less, an upgradable spirit and two online profile pics) they definitely know she's an important character which means I'm pretty sure if they wanted to add her as an echo they would have done so but her overall importance of the series as well as the things I've mentioned above might have made the devs thought she should more of her own type of fighter, I may not be able to convince you otherwise but I just wanted to make some interesting points on the subject.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I've mentioned this many times before but if Isabelle couldn't be an echo because her body shape difference is too much from Villager than I really don't believe making DK's up b would that easy to transfer to her considering the different body shapes and sizes as well as the fact that DK has two variations of his Up b would require more effort. Also there's her ponytail which would require different body frames and polygons (the mods in previous games that used her as a skin looks really off especially her ponytail, I certainly don't think this looks right at all for her) besides that with all the references she's has in Ultimate (mii hat, spirit battle which is represented by Isabelle no less, an upgradable spirit and two online profile pics) they definitely know she's an important character which means I'm pretty sure if they wanted to add her as an echo they would have done so but her overall importance of the series as well as the things I've mentioned above might have made the devs thought she'd should more of her own type of fighter, I may not be able to convince you otherwise but I just wanted to make some interesting points on the subject.

Actually, that's not true. DK's skeleton is hyper easy to use.

Because that's what you need from him for his Up B alone. You also are missing some of what's going on. Chrom used Ike's similar bodyshape for a single move, not for everything. It's related to how clones work. Skeletons can be reshaped often. Young Link was created from Link's skeleton, after all. I actually thought the idea of DK's Up B was impossible too till another user, who has vast experience in skeletal work, explained why stuff like this isn't a remote problem.

It's very easy for Dixie to borrow one move from DK due to very similar bodyshapes and skeletons. Dixie and him don't have the same proportions exactly, so she can't be an Echo of him. But by having a similar bodyshape, she can still borrow from his skeleton. Which, again, is what Chrom did. You can also borrow animations from people who aren't identical in bodyshapes. This is how Dark Pit has his Dark Pit Staff, borrowing animations overall from Zelda/Sheik. You can retool a ton of stuff from other characters. Mechanics, coding, and so on. Mewtwo quite clearly borrowed his Jump from Ness, and they don't have a similar bodyshape either. This is the easiest move Dixie can get from someone. She'd borrow it from him even if she wasn't an Echo. As they're very close designs overall. The difference is more size.

I don't think it matters if she's important or not for base. There were higher priorities here. First, let's remember she got passed over 3 times in a row(4 if you count Smash 4 DLC). First she couldn't be a partner with Diddy as the gameplay didn't work out. The partner gimmick is the core idea for her. 3DS version eliminated any partner ideas. Then Ultimate comes along and the partner idea would certainly be a lot harder to create over K. Rool, who may also have more votes anyway, but more importantly, he's easier to make. Smash 4's DLC could've added her as a semi-clone very easily too. They still ignored her, while getting a K. Rool costume. They had tons of chances to add her, echo or not, yet still ignored her. It isn't an Echo thing at this point. She could've been one in Smash 4 too, by only slightly changing a few of Diddy's moves, to be as unique as Dark Pit(who does have some differences).

So it's far more likely that she wasn't a priority at the time. She might be now, though. She was certainly during Brawl, but after that, King K. Rool has literally gotten more attention anyway. If she's not going to be an Echo, she's probably going to get a partner instead like Sakurai actually wanted her to. She might just be a semi-clone too, but there's little reason to believe that when Sakurai loves to revisit ideas. Especially since the partner mechanic is the only thing missing from DKC as is.

 

[Dukemon102]

I'm having so much fun with the update of Mario Maker 2. The originality that many people can make from the new things added gave new life to a game I got bored of quickly last year (That and creating levels without the Wii U gamepad became a chore quickly).
Makes me wish a Donkey Kong Country maker was possible. But I don't think that would be realisitically feasible without sacrificing many things. DKC are so well crafted and every level is so unique that you can't just make a good DKC level with a bunch of pre-made assets.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Actually, that's not true. DK's skeleton is hyper easy to use.

Because that's what you need from him for his Up B alone. You also are missing some of what's going on. Chrom used Ike's similar bodyshape for a single move, not for everything. It's related to how clones work. Skeletons can be reshaped often. Young Link was created from Link's skeleton, after all. I actually thought the idea of DK's Up B was impossible too till another user, who has vast experience in skeletal work, explained why stuff like this isn't a remote problem.

It's very easy for Dixie to borrow one move from DK due to very similar bodyshapes and skeletons. Dixie and him don't have the same proportions exactly, so she can't be an Echo of him. But by having a similar bodyshape, she can still borrow from his skeleton. Which, again, is what Chrom did. You can also borrow animations from people who aren't identical in bodyshapes. This is how Dark Pit has his Dark Pit Staff, borrowing animations overall from Zelda/Sheik. You can retool a ton of stuff from other characters. Mechanics, coding, and so on. Mewtwo quite clearly borrowed his Jump from Ness, and they don't have a similar bodyshape either. This is the easiest move Dixie can get from someone. She'd borrow it from him even if she wasn't an Echo. As they're very close designs overall. The difference is more size.

I don't think it matters if she's important or not for base. There were higher priorities here. First, let's remember she got passed over 3 times in a row(4 if you count Smash 4 DLC). First she couldn't be a partner with Diddy as the gameplay didn't work out. The partner gimmick is the core idea for her. 3DS version eliminated any partner ideas. Then Ultimate comes along and the partner idea would certainly be a lot harder to create over K. Rool, who may also have more votes anyway, but more importantly, he's easier to make. Smash 4's DLC could've added her as a semi-clone very easily too. They still ignored her, while getting a K. Rool costume. They had tons of chances to add her, echo or not, yet still ignored her. It isn't an Echo thing at this point. She could've been one in Smash 4 too, by only slightly changing a few of Diddy's moves, to be as unique as Dark Pit(who does have some differences).

So it's far more likely that she wasn't a priority at the time. She might be now, though. She was certainly during Brawl, but after that, King K. Rool has literally gotten more attention anyway. If she's not going to be an Echo, she's probably going to get a partner instead like Sakurai actually wanted her to. She might just be a semi-clone too, but there's little reason to believe that when Sakurai loves to revisit ideas. Especially since the partner mechanic is the only thing missing from DKC as is.

That's not exactly a good comparison when they are all humans which are easier to change in comparison to a huge gorilla and a small chimpanzee, semi clone is certainly possible but i seriously don't believe she's valuable as an echo because of what Sakurai said about Isabelle and considering how she was planned as a switchable character between her and Diddy like how the Pokemon Trainer handle though in the vein of them being together like Dkc 2 then it could be possible that she would have been more unique since it would be redundant to have two switchable nearly identical.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

My stance is that it might be too much work to make Dixie an echo because at the bare minimum, you'd have to animate her hair for everything. Which isn't unprecedented, since Dark Samus has a load of different animations from Samus, but then you'd also have to give her at least a different up B, change her neutral B to a gumball gun I guess. She's also typically slower than Diddy, so that might come into play as well. At some point, it would just feel strange to call her an echo. And yeah I know Ken has a bunch of differences like this as well, but he was originally created as a Ryu clone, being an echo fighter is a reference to the character's identity in that since. Dixie Kong was designed to be a contrast to Diddy Kong from the start.

Also, just as a personal thing; Diddy's dash attack and neutral air are cartwheels, and to me it would feel Dixie to do those since they're very much a Diddy thing in the DKC games. Dixie's counterpart is the hair twirl attacks, so I feel like her dash attack and neutral air should be that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's not exactly a good comparison when they are all humans which are easier to change in comparison to a huge gorilla and a small chimpanzee, semi clone is certainly possible but i seriously don't believe she's valuable as an echo because of what Sakurai said about Isabelle and considering how she was planned as a switchable character between her and Diddy like how the Pokemon Trainer handle though in the vein of them being together like Dkc 2 then it could be possible that she would have been more unique since it would be redundant to have two switchable nearly identical.

And DK and Dixie Kong have interchangeable skeletons.

It's literally been shown. Let me just refind what he said about it(Vaanrose), cause this is an assumption I made too that was completely wrong.

https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimate-discussion.434391/post-22283615
They're not 100% different skeletons. Every single character is built with the same joint hierarchy, regardless of shape or size. The only differences in skeletons is joint placement in 3D space, and additional joints added to the end of the hierarchy if needed. You can, right now, go into Smash 4 and mod spinning kong on to Duck Hunt and he'll do the animation. It'll look stupid, but it will function. And that's without joint retargeting.

Joint retargeting is the technique that every modern game uses to allow the same animations to function on characters of different sizes. This technique does not shift the retargeted joints in 3D space (like you get when porting animations in Brawl, which gives you Ganonchu), it only reorients them. This is why in an online game with customizable characters, they can all do the same canned animations, or how Andy Serkis, a human shaped human, can perform motion capture for a chimpanzee.

Basically, it's like this. You take an arm. At it's most basic, it has three joints. The shoulder, the elbow, the wrist. You have an animation of a character with a long arm, and you want to port it on to a character with a smaller arm. As long as they have the same joint hierarchy, which all Smash characters do, you can retarget this animation on to the smaller model quite easily, and there's even math involved that can compensate for the fact that the joints would need to rotate less on the smaller arm to reach the same position as the longer one.

It's actually not nearly as much work as completely reanimating everything Dark Samus does. This technique was invented in the first place to save time.

https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimate-discussion.434391/post-22283546
Re: the skeleton thing.

All the echoes have been reanimated. Sometimes just a bit, sometimes completely, from the ground up. The usual pipeline for a game like this is a homogenized skeleton system, and Smash has done exactly that in Brawl and Smash 4. This allows porting animations between every character in the game, regardless of model (and what allows goofy stuff like Ganonchu).

The point is, yes, a direct port of DK's Spinning Kong on to Dixie's model would probably be broken and ridiculous looking. But they have shown a willingness to reanimate, so, in effect, all they're porting is the functionality of the move. Aesthetically it'd be rebuilt to better suit her.

He's been inactive for about a year, so a tag is superfluous. And might feel kind of rude. He's already proven over and over again that using the skeleton for just the Up B is very very easy. That and Dixie and DK's skeletons are actually pretty close, so Dixie could even be a semi-clone of DK and it'd still work.

Semi-clone was the only choice with Isabelle at that point(or regular clone) because Villager and Isabelle were not the exact same body shape. They are not comparable remotely to Dixie and Diddy. Dixie and Diddy, besides that, play exactly alike besides the hair moves anyway.

Chrom and Ike do not have the same body shape. They're very very similar. Just like DK and Dixie. It's about body shapes, not species. And there's are just as similar. Using one move from DK, which is literally just reworking a skeletal model, is pretty easy honestly. Dixe's general animations otherwise would be more difficult than porting over one small bit of the skeletal work for a single move. It's not actually that hard to do. But the quotes above explain it quite well. If necessary, maybe a tag could be done towards Vaanrose, but overall, the argument she can't use DK's small skeletal difference for that single move? Well, that's not true whatsoever. What I couldn't find from his past posts is some even more clear animation points. Dixie's hair is going to be in its own separated piece of model, which does require some work(enough I at first made the argument she wouldn't be an echo, but Ken showed me otherwise that's not the case). Those attacks wouldn't be hard to make either. Diddy's Tail is programmed as a separate part of the model, just like how Dixie's hair has to be. This already would've made them mechanically identical despite different animations even if Diddy had kept more tail attacks.

tl;dr: This is an easy change for Dixie to have. Animating takes longer than porting over any of the actual gameplay itself. And animating isn't even all that hard when she can use pretty much every one of Diddy's moves as is, would, for her hair, need one some changes for accuracy beyond the idles and taunts; her throws could work the same mechanically but with different animations. These could however be slightly different mechanically too without issues. Her Up B is very easy to take from DK since rechanging a skeleton is... really easy. Her ledge attack would have to change to using her hair as there is no tail here. This is also very easy if she uses her hair since it's literally as much part of the base character skeleton as Diddy's tail is(which means they're separated).

-------------------

Now, saying she shouldn't be an Echo? Completely different thing. I'd prefer her as a semi myself. But I would say the same thing for Dark Samus too. I'm still happy she got in cause she's fun to play and has better differences than Daisy(who has the worst gameplay differences of all Echoes. No different moveset properties. Just a different hurtbox. The rest have tangible differences, especially when Spirits exist, or far more).

I'd also prefer her to be a partner character anyway. I'd probably team her up with Cranky Kong for another unique moveset(including a pogo stick move~) as is. Mostly cause there's no denying Kiddy is not that popular. Cranky's also been playable only through a partner factor, which is also the core thing Dixie would bring besides the ability to use her hair(in a twist, the hair thing is pretty easy to add whether she's an echo or not). Also worth noting that when porting over assets, the least amount of changes are generally done. For instance, while Dixie could have her guitar as a Final Smash, should she? Perhaps, as long as the move works well. Just for the sake of being different from Diddy is a pointless reason. If it's going to be done, it's due to animation issues or balance issues with Diddy's normal FS. Whatever is easiest is the logical way to do it with development time.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Just for the sake of being different from Diddy is a pointless reason.

Pointless are you kidding me? Sounds like you're not opening your mind on how unique she can be.

With enough creativity, she can do many things that Diddy (or anyone on the roster for that matter) can never emulate with her ponytail, she could even be like the Milla Rage of Smash.

 

[DeniroSerafim]

And DK and Dixie Kong have interchangeable skeletons.

It's literally been shown. Let me just refind what he said about it(Vaanrose), cause this is an assumption I made too that was completely wrong.



He's been inactive for about a year, so a tag is superfluous. And might feel kind of rude. He's already proven over and over again that using the skeleton for just the Up B is very very easy. That and Dixie and DK's skeletons are actually pretty close, so Dixie could even be a semi-clone of DK and it'd still work.

Semi-clone was the only choice with Isabelle at that point(or regular clone) because Villager and Isabelle were not the exact same body shape. They are not comparable remotely to Dixie and Diddy. Dixie and Diddy, besides that, play exactly alike besides the hair moves anyway.

Chrom and Ike do not have the same body shape. They're very very similar. Just like DK and Dixie. It's about body shapes, not species. And there's are just as similar. Using one move from DK, which is literally just reworking a skeletal model, is pretty easy honestly. Dixe's general animations otherwise would be more difficult than porting over one small bit of the skeletal work for a single move. It's not actually that hard to do. But the quotes above explain it quite well. If necessary, maybe a tag could be done towards Vaanrose, but overall, the argument she can't use DK's small skeletal difference for that single move? Well, that's not true whatsoever. What I couldn't find from his past posts is some even more clear animation points. Dixie's hair is going to be in its own separated piece of model, which does require some work(enough I at first made the argument she wouldn't be an echo, but Ken showed me otherwise that's not the case). Those attacks wouldn't be hard to make either. Diddy's Tail is programmed as a separate part of the model, just like how Dixie's hair has to be. This already would've made them mechanically identical despite different animations even if Diddy had kept more tail attacks.

tl;dr: This is an easy change for Dixie to have. Animating takes longer than porting over any of the actual gameplay itself. And animating isn't even all that hard when she can use pretty much every one of Diddy's moves as is, would, for her hair, need one some changes for accuracy beyond the idles and taunts; her throws could work the same mechanically but with different animations. These could however be slightly different mechanically too without issues. Her Up B is very easy to take from DK since rechanging a skeleton is... really easy. Her ledge attack would have to change to using her hair as there is no tail here. This is also very easy if she uses her hair since it's literally as much part of the base character skeleton as Diddy's tail is(which means they're separated).

-------------------

Now, saying she shouldn't be an Echo? Completely different thing. I'd prefer her as a semi myself. But I would say the same thing for Dark Samus too. I'm still happy she got in cause she's fun to play and has better differences than Daisy(who has the worst gameplay differences of all Echoes. No different moveset properties. Just a different hurtbox. The rest have tangible differences, especially when Spirits exist, or far more).

I'd also prefer her to be a partner character anyway. I'd probably team her up with Cranky Kong for another unique moveset(including a pogo stick move~) as is. Mostly cause there's no denying Kiddy is not that popular. Cranky's also been playable only through a partner factor, which is also the core thing Dixie would bring besides the ability to use her hair(in a twist, the hair thing is pretty easy to add whether she's an echo or not). Also worth noting that when porting over assets, the least amount of changes are generally done. For instance, while Dixie could have her guitar as a Final Smash, should she? Perhaps, as long as the move works well. Just for the sake of being different from Diddy is a pointless reason. If it's going to be done, it's due to animation issues or balance issues with Diddy's normal FS. Whatever is easiest is the logical way to do it with development time.

You're in a thread trying to downplay the character it's entirely dedicated to. Why? Do you honestly think that you'll change anyone's mind here? If you want Dixie represented well, I don't see how sticking her with Cranky or sticking her with moves from DK would do that. If Sakurai wanted Dixie to be an echo, why would he have not put her in the base game? I don't see echoes having any chance of being DLC if the second fighter pass is truly all we're getting, so Dixie will either just not be in the game, or she'll be unique, and even if Sakurai wanted to partner her up with a character, why would it be Cranky? There's zero history of them ever being partnered up like that in the games, so it would be really out of place. Dixie can easily stand on her own as a unique character, and clearly Sakurai feels that way about her. Even her spirit fight represents her with Isabelle, when they could have easily just used Diddy.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Yeah, they can't even add these characters to the garbage gacha games like Mario Kart Tour and Dr. Mario World where they are literally adding everyone and their mother. But hey, we have our 10th recolor of Mario!

Mario Kart Staff: BABIES!!! BABIES!!! METAL!!! METAL!!!

Nintendo employee: What are you saying?!

Mario Kart Staff: WE ARE GOING TO PUT THEM IN THE GAME!!!

Nintendo employee: But wouldn't baby and metal versions of already existing characters just waste space in the roster and take slots away from more interesting, deserving, popular characters the fans actually want?

Shuntaro Furukawa: Come over here boi!

Nintendo employee: Yes sir?

Shuntaro Furukawa: You're fired for suggesting to the staff their ideas are trash. GET OUT OF THIS BUILDING NOW AND TAKE YOUR ****!!!

Nintendo employee: But sir?!

Shuntaro Furukawa: OUT NOW!!! YOU'RE A DISGRACE TO NINTENDO!!! A DISGRACE TO THE MARIO KART STAFF!!! A DISGRACE TO ME!!! AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, A DISGRACE TO JAPAN!!!

Nintendo employee: But I was just suggesting want would be in the fans best interest.

Shuntaro Furukawa: 'Kicks Nintendo employee out the window' Now... DOES ANYBODY HERE HAVE IDEAS THAT THEY THINK IS BETTER THAN THE HONORABLE MARIO KART STAFF?!!!

Nintendo employees: Nope Shuntaro-sama.

Shuntaro Furukawa: Good! GET BACK TO WORK!!!

 

[Diddy Kong]

In other news, the Cheaper than Diddy Twitter account is still going alive and well!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is what is keeping me from playing Mario Kart Tour. Those damn prices are just ABSURD!

 

[Mushroomguy12]

This is what is keeping me from playing Mario Kart Tour. Those damn prices are just ABSURD!

Not to mention the awful mobile gameplay and controls that play like absolute sh** compared to the real Mario Kart. It's a shame though since Tour actually has a much better roster than MK8 (even though most of it is locked behind gacha mechanics), finally bringing back Diddy Kong and Birdo after more than a decade absence and adding in Pauline, and I really like some of the seasonal costumes. Even if its still missing obvious characters from DKC, Warioware, etc. I just wish they could combine the roster (with more DKC and Wario characters like Dixie Kong, Rool, Ashley, etc) with a real Mario Kart game that has actual controls and no gacha garbage someday.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honesty I'd love for them to really expand out and just go full blown with a Nintendo Kart game. Imagine cups based on particular franchises; Metroid, DK (of course), Kirby, Star Fox, etc. I mean there's all these great Nintendo settings, why not make use of them for something like this? Flying by Star Wolf on Venom? Dodging Metroids on Brinstar? Driving through Bramble Blast or Grassland Groove with Dixie while remixes of Stickerbush Symphony play? Who wouldn't want that?

If there's an insistence on keeping it to the Mario elements, just retain that focus for the mobile games.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's very clear a lot misread what I said. Now to be fair, it was a lot to read. I'll re-clarify it as is.

DK's skeleton is very easy to change around to match Dixie's. This has nothing to do with a character model. They're also very similar proportions. The only thing being borrowed from DK is specific his skeleton for the Up B at best. Maybe aerials if Diddy's are too hard to work it out. I agree the cartwheels look very silly on Dixie. Though you could replace the tail bit with her hair and just change the animations, but not how the move works? Maybe?

Diddy would be used to create Dixie Kong as a full base, Echo or not. This includes the model, not just the skeleton.
DK would provide the skeleton for a move or a few at best. Not the entire character base. This is fairly obvious that's all he can do due to having different models. Skeletons, however, not really. Coincidentally DK doesn't have a tail, heh.

I did not once say she can't be unique in any way. What I said was shoehorning in the Guitar strictly into her Final Smash solely for the sake of being different doesn't make any sense. It'll be because she can't really use the rocketbarrel and that part is OOC. This is basically why Dark Pit doesn't use Pit's actual Final Smash. Purely OOC stuff. Technically speaking she could feasibly use the Rocketbarrel anyway, since that's not unbelievable as a move at all, but her hair is very easy to make since another Kong has the right skeleton to do so, so that's obviously the best option. The thing about skeletons is that they can manipulated easily and have nothing to do inherently with the model or the textures. You could literally turn a grab into nearly any character's as long as the skeleton is remotely similar. Changing the model comes afterwards, and then the textures. Skeletons are always the first step, not models.

The only OOC thing at best would be who her partner is. But that's kind of between Kiddy and then nobody else otherwise. Having a partner is literally a core part of her character just as much as the hair. That's actually her origins, as a partner character. That's also intentionally what was going to happen in the first place in Brawl but couldn't work out. She still hasn't been playable since. She could've been a clone for Diddy if they had time at that point. One akin to to guys like Ganondorf, who plays highly different from Falcon, or Toon Link for one who is still a clone of Link anyway. They didn't have time for that, mind you. Or in 4, but that's due to her not being Echo plausible in that particular game. Those were for alt costumes anyway. They actually had a very small amount of development time for Ultimate as well. Barely 2 years after the characters were decided. She was considered lower priority over King K. Rool this time. Most likely he didn't want her as an Echo either, and he really wanted to keep the partner idea at the time. That makes sense why she hasn't been in yet in that regard. If he's adamant on the partner idea, she wouldn't be createable till Smash Ultimate DLC.

I don't expect her separate or as an Echo, but "can't", "won't", and "shouldn't" were never the same thing.
-Can she be an echo? Yes. Will she? Probably not. Should she? No.
-Can she have a partner? Yes. Will she? Probably. Should she? Very debatable.

And that's not saying outright that Sakurai will make sure she's got a partner. The idea Nintendo would say no is... very unlikely. They don't lose anything since he's doing the work. The worst thing they could say no to is who the partner is, cause there's no denying Kiddy is pretty unpopular(though I'm sure he still has a fanbase. I like him too) over the rest of the partners. And the chances of them using the other Kongs(Tiny, Lanky, and Chunky) is pretty small here. They also have nothing to do with Dixie at all. At least Dixie could team up with Cranky logically because that's both the type of gameplay they have, team up stuff.

----------------

Honestly, the lack of DK characters in mostly any Mario spin-offs lately is kind of sad too. ...Though I find it more sad that people still think DKC spun-off of Super Mario in itself. That's not how it works. Yes, Mario VS DK may have retconned the origins, but that's story, not actually what created the series. DKC spun off of DK the arcade game. Come on now. It split into two series, Super Mario and Donkey Kong Country. Mario didn't even exist yet till the split overall. DK didn't return till Donkey Kong Country as is. If I remember right, at best Super Mario Bros.' engine was reused to help create DKC? But I don't think that was remotely the case for how Rareware created it, though. I don't remember much about the development of the series outside of it strictly being a continuation of DK Arcade.

 

[BirthNote]

We know they don't. This completely wrong. So is the idea they're all miniscule. Do some research here. For that matter, as long as you continued to paint them incorrectly, you're going to make the point against her being an Echo worse. I agree she'd be better as a semi-clone, but your idea she can't be an Echo is based entirely on misinformation.

Tell me exactly what this is:

Spoiler: Marth and Lucina

Spoiler: Pit and Dark Pit

Spoiler: Peach and Daisy

Spoiler: Samus and Dark Samus

Spoiler: Roy and Chrom

Spoiler: The Belmonts

I made sure to play as each of those characters and take pics of a side-by-side comparison of their movesets, their attacks and animations during said attacks. Each Echo moves near-exactly the same as their base when fighting. Even Dark Samus, for as much as you asserted she stands apart from Samus moves spectacularly like her, but with the added "nuance" of a twisted arm and SFX to cover her posture. Luckily the in-game camera lets you toggle SFX, making all of Dark Samus's standout animations look like a sleight of hand to have us go "Wow! She's so different!" Compare Lucina's, Chrom's, Richter's, Daisy's, Dark Samus's and Dark Pit's distinction to the likes of Luigi, Falco, Wolf, Lucas, Isabelle and even Ganondorf of all fighters, then tell me you don't see the problem. Now take it a step further and compare fighters who aren't derived from others. The contrast is night and day.

This is of course what you're advocating for Dixie. You point to 6 copied movesets with little variation and argue that Dixie can do it too with no fuss or cause for concern, then hinge everything on damage percentages and knockback properties, with superficial aesthetics (Dark Pit's Side B, Richter's Blue Holy Water) to justify it. What you're sidestepping is that Echoes are literally "This moveset, but with a twist" and asserting that these characters are so different because (paraphrasing, bear with me) "Lucina hits harder than Marth, so I mean c'mon they play nothing alike! Never mind the majority of shared animations, attacks, attack functions, maneuvers and stuff! Focus on what's really important: the technical data that can be drastically tweaked with a patch! Not the fact that these characters swing in the same arc, strike with the exact same pose for 95% of their moveset at the bare minimum! Where's your priorities?! Blue fire is different from red fire, case closed."

That's splitting hairs at its finest, and what that post you made means for Dixie, is that she'd vary little from Diddy outside of Tier List Stats. As you can see above with Chrom, the only wildly different thing is his Up B; the rest is a near 1:1 mimicry of Roy; you'd give her the same Jab, Smashes, Tilts, Aerials, Grabs/Throws, Dash Attack and most Specials, sprinkle in a girly flair, change a Special and call it a day. A fighter in SSB has at least 21 attacks not counting ledge sweeps and the like; Diddy in particular has 25 (3 Jabs, Tilts, Smashes. 1 Dash Attack, 5 Aerials, 4 Throws, 4 Specials that grant 2 extra attacks). The Echo you're advocating for gives us a Dixie with 24/25 of Diddy's attacks....but that's tooootally fine, because the damage percentages and launch trajectories mean there'd be no comparison! Anyone who asserts otherwise just didn't do enough research; I'm sure that if we hinge everything on assets that get tweaked by balance patches every few months, there'd be no cause for concern!

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I swear, Dixie as a Echo would be the worst clone decision by the team and Sakurai since making Ganondorf into a Captain Falcon clone/semi-clone. Dixie doesn't deserve Ganondorf's fate and Ganondorf didn't deserve his fate in Smash in the first place.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I swear, Dixie as a Echo would be the worst clone decision by the team and Sakurai since making Ganondorf into a Captain Falcon clone/semi-clone. Dixie doesn't deserve Ganondorf's fate and Ganondorf didn't deserve his fate in Smash in the first place.

Honesty? He's the only clone I've ever thought was fun to outright play as besides Dr. Mario. He captured Ganondorf's entire personality 100% and he feels like the massive badass he is. He's supposed to be strong as a person. That's always who he was. He's been a physical badass as his core character. He still uses magic, just not a projectile at best. It's actually a pretty faithful moveset as of Brawl. He uses most of his own moves(remember that Dead Man's Volley, which didn't even get named till at least the time of 4, wasn't his signature move even then. By the time Brawl hit, it was used by a common enemy turned mini-boss, not a form of Ganon. There wasn't exactly a lot that could be done. He wouldn't even have it if he debuted in Brawl. He'd still be a physical badass since that's his only moveset designs he has from Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. He's actually a lot more accurate that people take him for).

So this isn't the best example. He's a lot more mixed than you realize and many love playing as him. Only OOT was he honestly inaccurate overall. You have literal two moves that are a stretch, Wizard's Foot and Dark Dive. The rest perfectly fit him as of now(he also got some Smash attacks that made him less canon than 4, oddly enough).

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That said, I'm not going to respond to any argument if you're just going to scream at me. Take a chill pill. There is no reason to get that massively aggressive at any point. It's just a game. It's not a big deal. Besides, you did miss some later posts over how I went over that Diddy's aerials should change too. Not that I expect you to read beyond the post I replied to you, and all. But what you said is based upon an outdated statement.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Honesty? He's the only clone I've ever thought was fun to outright play as besides Dr. Mario. He captured Ganondorf's entire personality 100% and he feels like the massive badass he is. He's supposed to be strong as a person. That's always who he was. He's been a physical badass as his core character. He still uses magic, just not a projectile at best. It's actually a pretty faithful moveset as of Brawl. He uses most of his own moves(remember that Dead Man's Volley, which didn't even get named till at least the time of 4, wasn't his signature move even then. By the time Brawl hit, it was used by a common enemy turned mini-boss, not a form of Ganon. There wasn't exactly a lot that could be done. He wouldn't even have it if he debuted in Brawl. He'd still be a physical badass since that's his only moveset designs he has from Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. He's actually a lot more accurate that people take him for).

So this isn't the best example. He's a lot more mixed than you realize and many love playing as him. Only OOT was he honestly inaccurate overall. You have literal two moves that are a stretch, Wizard's Foot and Dark Dive. The rest perfectly fit him as of now(he also got some Smash attacks that made him less canon than 4, oddly enough).

-----------------

That said, I'm not going to respond to any argument if you're just going to scream at me. Take a chill pill. There is no reason to get that massively aggressive at any point. It's just a game. It's not a big deal. Besides, you did miss some later posts over how I went over that Diddy's aerials should change too. Not that I expect you to read beyond the post I replied to you, and all. But what you said is based upon an outdated statement.

Yes, Ganondorf is fun to play but that isn't how he fights in the Zelda games. Ganondorf is more of a mage and swordmen in his games Legacy XP showing a prime example how Ganondorf should really play in Smash:

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yes, Ganondorf is fun to play but that isn't how he fights in the Zelda games. Ganondorf is more of a mage and swordmen in his games Legacy XP showing a prime example how Ganondorf should really play in Smash:

...You sure you ever played WW or TP? Even his Forward Tilt is from TP ever since Brawl.

He doesn't do magic. He's 100% physical there. His magic is "turn into Ganon". And that's not actual Magic. That's calling on the Triforce of Power specifically.

OOT slightly had magical skills, but other than DMV and a single lightning ball, they were all via physical means. An earthquake punch, which is literally the same move as Warlock Punch, magic included(bar the element, respectively). His overhead strike for his front aerial is literally from OOT Artwork. He doesn't use a sword in OOT either. He's been as close to canon as the TP design in Brawl.

Ultimate did make him less canon in the end, but also more of what people wanted. A lot just wanted "sword", but didn't understand exactly how it works. His swords are catered to his character abilities. He's not a broadsword user outside of HW. He only uses a finesse sword in TP, and it's not his core weapon. He thrusts, and shows it off. It's not design for physical prowess. WW is the same way. The only lucky thing is the reason he's in Smash in the first place, due to the tech demo. If it weren't for that, we'd have a physical Ganondorf with... practically no magic since he isn't a wizard in WW/TP anymore. He punches out Link directly in WW like a boxer. The character evolved to be far more accurate in the end.

Also not a fan of this version. It isn't actually understanding what makes him tick. He's not a pure squishy wizard at all. He's not some hyperspeed person outside of WW. He's slower than some(more around what Bowser is now). I've seen the moveset before. It has some good ideas, but it's also ignoring he's changed so much since OOT too. This also would make him impossible to update to a later game design because he really can't move around like that. Not even WW design, where he's entirely different.

Now looking at the video, since when does he randomly mark darkness at all? He does make his hands glow with energy within OOT and punch something, yes. He does empower his own limbs in canon, as just noted. These darkness clouds are severely shoehorned in. I like some stuff, like his new Up B, which is better. But his tilts bar the Up Tilt are way more realistic(well, Up Tilt too since it shows that while not the fastest ever, he's stronger than anyone around).

The electric attacks are... okay? Slightly more realistic? Wait, he can't hit back DMV? If it can't be hit back, it's not DMV. At all. That's the whole point behind the move, after all. The only way to damage Ganondorf by reflecting it.

Yeah, I'll be honest that I can say this is impressive work, but doesn't remind me remotely of how Ganondorf fights in OOT outside of a tiny few moves. I won't deny it's great work, but the idea he's solely a Wizard and has no real physical power to begin with is completely wrongggg. I'm glad Smash stuck with the badass physical guy. It encompasses him overall more accurately since Brawl. He does a few moves correctly, too. But not that much. Brawl Ganondorf does actually have more accurate moves in comparison from what I can see. He also doesn't teleport people around like that. Where on earth did that come from?? His throws just feels so random here.

Also worth noting some of these are clearly for the sake of being magical, not based upon his overall actions. Even though the throws are off, they make some sense, as he has great magical power. I'd also expect more references to Twinrova/Koume/Kotake who trained him.

Either way, this isn't a good place to continue talking about his moveset. General Social might be better??

 

[RetrogamerMax]

...You sure you ever played WW or TP? Even his Forward Tilt is from TP ever since Brawl.

He doesn't do magic. He's 100% physical there. His magic is "turn into Ganon". And that's not actual Magic. That's calling on the Triforce of Power specifically.

OOT slightly had magical skills, but other than DMV and a single lightning ball, they were all via physical means. An earthquake punch, which is literally the same move as Warlock Punch, magic included(bar the element, respectively). His overhead strike for his front aerial is literally from OOT Artwork. He doesn't use a sword in OOT either. He's been as close to canon as the TP design in Brawl.

Ultimate did make him less canon in the end, but also more of what people wanted. A lot just wanted "sword", but didn't understand exactly how it works. His swords are catered to his character abilities. He's not a broadsword user outside of HW. He only uses a finesse sword in TP, and it's not his core weapon. He thrusts, and shows it off. It's not design for physical prowess. WW is the same way. The only lucky thing is the reason he's in Smash in the first place, due to the tech demo. If it weren't for that, we'd have a physical Ganondorf with... practically no magic since he isn't a wizard in WW/TP anymore. He punches out Link directly in WW like a boxer. The character evolved to be far more accurate in the end.

Also not a fan of this version. It isn't actually understanding what makes him tick. He's not a pure squishy wizard at all. He's not some hyperspeed person outside of WW. He's slower than some(more around what Bowser is now). I've seen the moveset before. It has some good ideas, but it's also ignoring he's changed so much since OOT too. This also would make him impossible to update to a later game design because he really can't move around like that. Not even WW design, where he's entirely different.

Now looking at the video, since when does he randomly mark darkness at all? He does make his hands glow with energy within OOT and punch something, yes. He does empower his own limbs in canon, as just noted. These darkness clouds are severely shoehorned in. I like some stuff, like his new Up B, which is better. But his tilts bar the Up Tilt are way more realistic(well, Up Tilt too since it shows that while not the fastest ever, he's stronger than anyone around).

The electric attacks are... okay? Slightly more realistic? Wait, he can't hit back DMV? If it can't be hit back, it's not DMV. At all. That's the whole point behind the move, after all. The only way to damage Ganondorf by reflecting it.

Yeah, I'll be honest that I can say this is impressive work, but doesn't remind me remotely of how Ganondorf fights in OOT outside of a tiny few moves. I won't deny it's great work, but the idea he's solely a Wizard and has no real physical power to begin with is completely wrongggg. I'm glad Smash stuck with the badass physical guy. It encompasses him overall more accurately since Brawl. He does a few moves correctly, too. But not that much. Brawl Ganondorf does actually have more accurate moves in comparison from what I can see. He also doesn't teleport people around like that. Where on earth did that come from?? His throws just feels so random here.

Also worth noting some of these are clearly for the sake of being magical, not based upon his overall actions. Even though the throws are off, they make some sense, as he has great magical power. I'd also expect more references to Twinrova/Koume/Kotake who trained him.

Either way, this isn't a good place to continue talking about his moveset. General Social might be better??

Did you hear when I said he was a swordsman too? And yes I have played WW and TP. The darkness clouds were not shoehorned in they were taken from Phantom Ganon's fight. Have you ever finished OOT? Plus Pig Ganon was more of a mage so this perfectly suits his character.

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Kongfirmed.

Take that, Baby DK, whoever you are.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Did you hear when I said he was a swordsman too? And yes I have played WW and TP. The darkness clouds were not shoehorned in they were taken from Phantom Ganon's fight. Have you ever finished OOT? Plus Pig Ganon was more of a mage so this perfectly suits his character.

Pig Ganon isn't a mage in OOT either. He wasn't a mage till years later when ALTTP existed. Now I can't entirely remember which timeline led into ALTTP, but that's when he first became one.

And I saw, but I honestly feel they're taking massive liberties either way. The teleports felt very strange, though I see what you mean by it using Phantom Ganon's stuff(I don't mean the Up B either. That was good). The hover and Up B are honestly changes I like, as they fit well. I should clarify I'm not sure if that's Dead Man's Volley(which is not really remotely how it works) or if it's his Energy Ball attack(which is accurate).

I'll say it again; it's nice, but doesn't feel like it should be what Ganondorf should become. He should use his knife more, not throw magic in every spot that he can. He's still the King of Thieves. Or use Phantom Ganon's Trident, if only as a meta callback to his Trident in a later game. I'm sure you're aware in this case that Ganon doesn't get an actual trident till way later in the story, which is why Phantom Ganon's own Trident is completely different as a design. It's more like a pike/lance in comparison. It's just a trident-type weapon.

This would be a cool alternate version of Ganondorf to select from, though. Just needs some more tweaks(using his Knife for a few tilts, maybe a bit less lightning and shadow magic as is) and he feels a lot more accurate. Since he's not about physical power in this version, I get why he is practically all magic. You could throw in Phantom Ganon's unique Trident maybe a bit too for the aerials as is so he doesn't feel like most of the moveset is made-up.

(I don't think you saw the part where I said we should move this to another topic since it's off-topic though).

 

[RetrogamerMax]

(I don't think you saw the part where I said we should move this to another topic since it's off-topic though).

I saw it, but I'm done talking to you because I don't know what else to say to you that will change your mind.